Post/Author/DateTime	Post
macross33 08-11-05, 08:25 AM	Hello Currently playing a Half Orc monk. I just hit level 2 and am wondering what I should possibly look at for level 3 feats. I have posted the etools version of him http://www.geocities.com/questgate/monk.html
PhoenixInferno 08-11-05, 09:10 AM	The stickied threads are a wealth of information. If you had used them, you would have found this (http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=48573&origin=).
macross33 08-11-05, 09:51 AM	I did indeed use them. However most of the builds in there are either designed for human builds or builds that involve OA/FR (which I am prohibited from).
LordKiwi 08-11-05, 09:59 AM	You're after one of two things probably. Either Improved Natural Attack or a way of using combat reflexes to the fullest. If the latter is the case I'd suggest grabing the prerequisites for Karmic Strike ASAP, since that's probably the best way to do it. Lord Kiwi,
macross33 08-11-05, 10:36 AM	You're after one of two things probably. Either Improved Natural Attack or a way of using combat reflexes to the fullest. If the latter is the case I'd suggest grabing the prerequisites for Karmic Strike ASAP, since that's probably the best way to do it. Lord Kiwi, I was looking at improved natural attack. I already got the ok formt he DM, but of course I won't qualify for it at level 3. As far as combat reflexes goes, I wasn't thinking on using it a lot. though I will take a look at the feat and pre-req. I guess a better way of putting it would be: I eventually want to take pain touch and improved natural attack, what would be a good feat to go for at level 3. Essentially I want to concentrate on a simple stunning fist character.
PhoenixInferno 08-11-05, 10:48 AM	I did indeed use them. However most of the builds in there are either designed for human builds or builds that involve OA/FR (which I am prohibited from). If you looked FURTHER, you'll find there are plenty of half-orc monk builds. I know mean_liar has at least 2 and PhaedrusXY has at least 2. Oh, and the only difference between a human monk and a half-orc monk is a SINGLE FEAT. Adapt the builds.
macross33 08-11-05, 11:04 AM	*sigh* /ignore PhoenixInferno
macross33 08-11-05, 11:07 AM	Also thanks for the advice Kiwi :)
PhaedrusXY 08-11-05, 12:18 PM	If you looked FURTHER, you'll find there are plenty of half-orc monk builds. I know mean_liar has at least 2 and PhaedrusXY has at least 2. Oh, and the only difference between a human monk and a half-orc monk is a SINGLE FEAT. Adapt the builds.Indeed I do have a couple of half-orc monk builds (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6066956&postcount=859) in there. But I tend to favor grappling, tripping, and just beating stuff to death over stunning. And I also tend to use OA and FR material freely in builds I make. I do agree with you in that the difference between a half-orc and human monk build is trivial, and that there is tons of useful info in there if the original poster was willing to wade through it. But I guess I can understand why he wouldn't be. It is easier to just hit "New Thread" and ask for help, and let someone else do his work for him. ;) I did indeed use them. However most of the builds in there are either designed for human builds or builds that involve OA/FR (which I am prohibited from).You should have specified exactly what books you can use in your first post. Otherwise, we end up wasting our time and yours recommending stuff you can't use. So: what books can you use? I guess a better way of putting it would be: I eventually want to take pain touch and improved natural attack, what would be a good feat to go for at level 3. Essentially I want to concentrate on a simple stunning fist character. If you're not planning on taking the Combat Expertise feat tree (not saying you shouldn't), you might consider Power Attack or Improved Grapple for your 3rd level feat. Improved Grapple can be particularly useful at the low levels, when you fight alot of humanoid opponents and noone has a huge BAB advantage over you. Power Attack will be more useful at the higher levels. If you can use Unearthed Arcana, I'd also consider taking all three levels of Half-Orc Paragon to get Rage. Rage as a monk is awesome, IMO. (Especially for the grappling builds that I favor. ;) )
macross33 08-11-05, 12:57 PM	First, I definitly should have posted material that is useable. In fact I know better and just completely forgot, sorry on that. I have indeed spent a decent amount of time looking through the different monk stickies, and my impression was 1. Most of the builds require OA/FR material which I am prohibited from & 2. Monks have few opportunities for feats, and loosing 1 by not taking human as a race seemed to have decent impact on the builds. I could of course take the feat trees 1 step further than the human builds, but then I wonder if pushing certain trees completion 3 levels higher than the original build may cause the builds power to suffer due to the three level delay. I was striving to try to make the question simple, as to waist as little time as possible, but in turn have only ended up asking to broad a question and making it take even more time. It also has nothing to do with me not wanting to read threads, but I felt I did indeed spend a decent amount of time in those threads, and the fact that the search function is crap doesn't make things easier. I don't want a full blown build, just a little feat advice. I need a level 3 feat that won't end up being a crap choice for a build that concentrates on a melee monk specializing in stunning fist. I currently have taken Ability focus, stunning fist, combat reflexes. Down the line I plan on taking improved natural attack and pain touch (all decided based on advice form those sticky threads). I have looked at similar builds that recommend spring attack/mob/dodge, but I don't think I have the room to take 3 feats to achieve that. I can use most WotC books and Dragon mags as long as they are not FR/Eb/OA/3.0 In regards to your advice, do you think half orc paragon hurts the monk progression to much? or is it worth it? Also can I take that and still take levels in monk if I am not using OA? Thanks a lot for the reply! Also I appreciate the maturity of the criticism.
PhaedrusXY 08-11-05, 01:12 PM	According to crystalkeep.com, you already qualify for Pain Touch, so why don't you just take that as your 3rd level feat? I assumed you already had, until you posted your feats. Yeah, I understand where you were coming from trying to just ask a "simple" question. But you're usually better off just giving us all the relevant info, and then adding that you're just looking for "simple" feat advice. Because it lets us offer more informed choices, and people will often think of something that you overlooked, and which they wouldn't have known to suggest if they didn't really know what sources you could use and what you're looking for exactly. As far as the half-orc paragon, I guess it depends. Like I said, I tend to favor grappling type characters, and for them I think the delay in flurry and unarmed damage is worth getting the higher Str mod to increase their grapple checks. The higher Str also compensates for the slower damage progression. For a Stunning based monk, I don't know if it would be worth it. The main thing that would hurt for you would be the slower flurry progression, I think. So overall, you are probably better off just sticking with monk or a monk PrC I think, at least until you get Greater Flurry. Also, definitely take Rapid Stunning as soon as you can. It's in CW. I'd pick it before INA for what you sound like you're after. Edit: I think the soonest you'll be able to take it is at 9th level, upon reviewing the prereqs. So Pain Touch at 3rd, INA at 6th, then Rapid Stunning I guess. :D Edit2: I forgot you'd posted a link to the character. I could have gotten the feats from there I guess. :doh:
macross33 08-11-05, 01:46 PM	I was trying not to make one of those "Dude I have a human fighter with a strength of 17, what do I need to do to kill stuff a lot?" threads :P But seriosuly: 1. Great link to crystalkeep. That is a new one for me, but will soon be a favorite. I wish I could say that getting ready to buy a house has left me with little time to check books lately, but not having checked pain touch previously is a major bone head move on my part.... *sigh* Let me ask you this, am I choosing a poor path? I originaly was a bit overwhelmed by all the monk options, so I tried to stay simple with pain touch. However am I making a poor choice? and if so is it to late to correct it seeing as how I threw level 1 into Ability Focus: Stunning Fist ? Perhaps Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries would be smarter, or soemthing similar? I want to make a powerful and fun character, but I also want to stay away formt hose dip into 10 class type builds ;p. I have annoyed my DM enough with my cleave gnoll and cleric archer(3.0), so he is a bit warry towards me now ;p
PhaedrusXY 08-11-05, 02:13 PM	No, I don't think you're making a poor choice. Mean_Liar is the local monk guru, and he seems to favor Stunning Fist tactics, and disdain grappling somewhat. Stunning Fist tactics seem to me more popular in general with alot of posters, from what I've seen, also. I just personally have enjoyed playing grappling/tripping type characters alot, and haven't messed with Stunning tactics much. I think it's just a personal preference thing. As far as going into a prestige class, I'd say make sure to pick one that your DM says will continue your Flurry of Blows progression. Of course alot of posters on here have opinions on which classes should and shouldn't progress FoB, but all that ultimately matters is what your DM says. FoB is arguably the monk's best ability, IMO. Especially if you're going to focus on Stunning. FoB + Rapid Stunning will make you much more effective at it. I'd even consider taking Rapid Stunning multiple times, after you get other critical feats out of the way.
PhoenixInferno 08-11-05, 02:21 PM	Vow of Nonviolence is a good feat for characters with non-lethal methods of dealing with opponents, if you have access to the Book of Exalted Deeds. Should be a good way to bump up the Stunning Fist DC - not a lot of other ways to do it. I can be constructive too, y'know. I just hate "gimme" posts.
PhaedrusXY 08-11-05, 02:31 PM	I can be constructive too, y'know. I just hate "gimme" posts.lol, I know. I guess I just happen to be in a good mood today. I've jumped on here and flamed the crap out of people for threads similiar to this one when I was having a bad day. :P It irks me when it appears that people aren't using the stickied threads, also. But in this case, it sounds like the OP looked them over, but still wasn't sure what to do.
macross33 08-11-05, 03:03 PM	One of the builds I liked a lot from the stickies was the Vow of poverty one. After some serious thought on the matter I decided to stay away from it. As much fun as it would be, my DM and I don't always see eye to eye on "lawful good". The idea of my alignment changing and suddenly killing of my powrs and negating two feats makes me convulse. Thanks for the stun opinion also, I think I have a good direction now. Thanks : )
PhoenixInferno 08-11-05, 03:57 PM	Well, I only recommened the one feat, Vow of Nonviolence. I didn't check your alignment, but if you qualify, I don't see any reason to take it - with Improved Unarmed Strike, you never take penalties to deal subdual damage with your fists, so there's really no reason not to take it. Except for the Exalted status...
Claggart 08-11-05, 04:01 PM	My friends are pretty good at instantly knowing how to optimize various features of a game's mechanics. I stink at it. A long history of sub par characters brought me here a few months ago. That said, my first impression of Stun Attack was that it would never be reliable. The DC seems easy to beat for even low/mid level characters. Other than Vow of Nonviolence, how can you get reliable & consistent use out of Stun based attack? I like the effect & style of the various stunning attacks, but fear the limited use and (potentially) unreliable DC. It seems to me that I would be better off concentrating on other things (like tripping & charging).
PhaedrusXY 08-11-05, 04:06 PM	Other than Vow of Nonviolence, how can you get reliable & consistent use out of Stun based attack? I like the effect & style of the various stunning attacks, but fear the limited use and (potentially) unreliable DC. It seems to me that I would be better off concentrating on other things (like tripping & charging).That is the reason I usually go with tripping/charging/grappling "monks" instead of stun based monks, hehe. Of course, everyone always says "yeah, but at the mid to upper levels, the monsters are all too big/strong/magically protected to trip/grapple." My reply is "yes, and the exact same monsters have insane Fort. saves, too. So your stunning monk is no better off than my tripping/grappling monk." :P Anyway, if you get some magic to buff yourself up in size and str, you can continue to be effective at grappling and tripping at all levels, except against those opponents that are protected by Freedom of Movement and/or Steadfast Boots. And against them, you just drop subtlety and beat them to death. :D
macross33 08-11-05, 04:25 PM	Well, I only recommened the one feat, Vow of Nonviolence. I didn't check your alignment, but if you qualify, I don't see any reason to take it - with Improved Unarmed Strike, you never take penalties to deal subdual damage with your fists, so there's really no reason not to take it. Except for the Exalted status... Man I got very excited about this one. unfortuantly any exalted feat requires the good alignment..... damn. Where is the book of indiferent virtue? We neutral alignment types get screwed ;p
PhaedrusXY 08-11-05, 04:48 PM	Man I got very excited about this one. unfortuantly any exalted feat requires the good alignment..... damn. Where is the book of indiferent virtue? We neutral alignment types get screwed ;pMan how I wish they'd put out a Book of Perfect Balance... I love the Rilmani, and I like playing weird, Neutral characters....
solbergb 08-11-05, 07:17 PM	As someone who went the grappler instead of stunning fist route, for true power, Mean Liar is right. Although the true path to wisdom is to take both, they're differently useful. Downside of stunning fist + grapple though is MAD, you want good wisdom and at least 15 dex (so that enlarge person doesn't take away your ability to grapple, if not taken as a monk feat, imp grapple has a dex13 req) Grappling is best in the low levels when your opponents are smaller and monks simply have fewer attacks. As the flurry progresses, you are less inclined to grapple, and you run into more and more opponents that are just too big and too strong to grapple (or even trip). This is mitigated somewhat by the existance of stronger polymorph-style buffs from the party arcanist. Grapple is a terrific weapon to have in your arsenal. It is not however a good thing to be the ONLY thing you do. Luckily, being good at grapple means being strong, and being strong means you are automatically good at other methods of attack. (this is not true of a weapon finesse/disarm-stun type build...if you can't stun or disarm them, your blows are pinpricks)
Celt 08-11-05, 09:50 PM	Other than the Shou Disciple, are there any other PrC's that grant full BAB and progression in some (or all) of the monk abilities? It just seems odd to me that a class based mostly in combat only gets a 3/4 BAB...
macross33 08-11-05, 11:30 PM	Perhaps I am being too narrow minded. Reading about the monks lack of feats has me concerned about needing to be very specific witht he build. Perhaps somethign more diverse. The stunning thing is cool, but in the end will only work well at higher levels when you fight certain mobs. I suppose aiming at increasing base damage is a good method... I knwo I saw some builds for that.. will take a look tomorrow.