Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BenSan 01-01-07, 09:20 PM	Okay, so I don't know much about psionics; I blitzed through the 3.5 psionics SRD and Complete Psionic in one day and I'm sure there are a few things I've failed to absorb (I did know 3.0 psionics reasonably well, but enough things have changed that I'm not confident.) I'm itching to make a Thrallherd. I want him to be very good at Making Friends And Influencing People, and am not too worried about being weak against enemies who resist the whammy. That said, I'm not asking for suggested feats or builds (I poked through a couple threads in that regard) but an answer to one simple question. What class before Thrallherd? As far as I can tell, the options break down like so: Psion-Telepath: Pros are a much wider set of powers, doesn't have to spend a feat getting Mind Link, high-level powers sooner, more access to a variety of mind-whammy abilities. Most obvious con is that I'd be attracting thralls and making social rolls with CHA but getting DCs and PP with INT. Also, the two most significant whammies (Charm and Dominate) come with Thrallherd anyway. Wilder: Pros are the ability to Wild Surge to drive up the save DC, and being able to put all the weight on CHA for my important abilities. Cons are very few abilities relatively, and a smaller selection to choose from. I'll probably be able to design my thrall but not my believers, so must of the fun stuff in the Followers thread is, alas, beyond my grasp. I'm considering a Dragon Shaman for the cohort, but am open to suggestions if this is spectacularly ill-advised. (ToB is out for personal reasons.)
Lokiyn 01-01-07, 10:09 PM	Use a Shaper Base, You can get a lot of work out of shaper foundation, More so than a telepath (in most cases), If you can get a Telepath Thrall and a Power Stone of Psychic Chirugury. At level 12 your thrall would be a level 11 telepath, Now chiurgury in a mind switch power, and now you qualify for Body Leech (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925a) Starting Level 13 as a Leech.
King Bulba 01-01-07, 10:19 PM	I did a Nomad and took expanded knowledge mindlink. Doesn't have to be a telepath. Wilder will not work that well unless you plan very carefully. Dont forget how few powers they know. It comes down to what do you want to do. Mind control? then choose telepath, but if you want other things you get charm and dominate for free with thrallheard so thats a bonus not to take telepath. Worthless nuking is Kineticist(I am a little biased hehe), Nomads control traveling with some battlefield control but might need some tweaking. Seer shouldnt be ignored either...
Ricktur63 01-01-07, 10:31 PM	You can go with the wilder if you want to use (Cha) as your key ability. You can add more powers with independent research (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#independentRes earch) (if your DM gives you down time between adventures) as well as 'Expanded Knowledge' (every chance you get). You only have to burn the one EK to get mind link. The rest can be any nifty power you can't live without. You could always have an assassin as cohort, even if your character isn't so far off into the darkside.
PhaedrusXY 01-01-07, 10:38 PM	Due to the Thrallherd levels adding to your Leadership score, you really don't have to worry about Charisma, as far as that goes. It will be maxed out quickly even with a lowish Cha. Cha would of course be useful for the social skills, but that is a separate issue. So basically, you can pick any discipline you want.
BenSan 01-01-07, 10:46 PM	The shaper and nomad suggestions are interesting, but as I said the character emphasis is to be on mind-whammy - I'd rather rely on the followers for versatility and have the character as a focused mind-controller than have a versatile PC with a thrall providing the bulk of his mind control. The Body Leech option is interesting but considerably more overtly predatory than I was envisioning - Thrallherd is pretty evil by nature, I'm going with more of a casual social predator than the kind of bodies-piling-up type that Body Leech seems geared towards. As I think about it more, it seems like it would be easier to use Psion's bonus feats to work on the save DC for my effects than it would be to overcome the Wilder's shortage of powers... still, single-attribute is awfully tempting.
Lokiyn 01-01-07, 10:47 PM	heh, or the its hard to argue with the man with a mob (aid another) Body Leech is only a problem when you feel the need to kidnap people off the streets, many times the party will "kill" a monster by bringing it in the negs rather than dropping it to -10 or below. This is the time you pop in and slide that dire bear into a Stasis cocoon, This also works for criminal captures, Using the Tether hound to deposit the criminal in a cell with a marker cocoon (a rat or something) you then have archers arrow the hound to death after which they prep and open up the stasis cocoon for processing. In addition the Thrallherd class in and of itself is only as evil as you play it, similar to a rogue.
BenSan 01-01-07, 11:06 PM	Well, Body Leech has evil alignment as a prereq. Even aside from that.. I don't know, I'm not comfortable with it. I see how it's a good PrC for some Thrallherds and appreciate being pointed to it, but I don't think I'll incorporate it into my plans. The point about Thrallherd's formula de-emphasizing charisma is a good one, though. More and more I'm leaning towards Psion (telepath). I was mostly wondering if there were any major points I'd missed. Now I just have to go figure out my feats.. ah, fun!
Lokiyn 01-01-07, 11:19 PM	Pick up astral construct or crystal shard, Telepaths are incredibly weak against constructs and undead, or anything with immunity to mind affecting, your character would definitly look for something to offset that. ( Ek Astral construct is one of the more popular options / Angry Mobs are another)
BenSan 01-01-07, 11:47 PM	Pick up astral construct or crystal shard, Telepaths are incredibly weak against constructs and undead, or anything with immunity to mind affecting, your character would definitly look for something to offset that. ( Ek Astral construct is one of the more popular options / Angry Mobs are another) I was thinking of Energy Ray or Energy Missile for my anti-mindless option. I assume the reason for shard or astral construct is to avoid problems with power-resistant enemies?
Adolph_Kheebler 01-01-07, 11:54 PM	I've played several thrallherds and in my experience the obvious Telepath is the best. I tried a wilder and was constantly compensating for the lack of the good powers. I tried a shaper and just ended up with expanded knowledge as every other feat. I am now currently playing a telepath who is about to go thrallherd and it is just the best both flavour and mechanics wise. The telepath powers are some of the best unless you're fighting hordes. Psionic dominate is particularly effective in battle, particularly if you have a psicrystal and the solicit psicrystal power or schism already running to take over concentration. False sensory input can get very fun. All in all, telepath is the best way to go.
Lokiyn 01-02-07, 12:21 AM	I'm curious though, Was the problem shaper, or was the problem a need to "do everything". Really if your character is focused onto a track. (mind control, Slave labor, etc) you shouldn't need a slew of powers. simply one or at most two.
Adolph_Kheebler 01-02-07, 12:28 AM	One of the best builds I actually saw with a thrallherd but haven't tried myself was to use a base egoist in order to get the fusion power at higher levels. You then make your thralls in to things that can transform and change type so you can then fuse with them and have ridiculous types on you. For more on this find the thread titled The Father The Son and the Holy Ghost.
PhaedrusXY 01-02-07, 12:52 AM	One of the best builds I actually saw with a thrallherd but haven't tried myself was to use a base egoist in order to get the fusion power at higher levels. You then make your thralls in to things that can transform and change type so you can then fuse with them and have ridiculous types on you. For more on this find the thread titled The Father The Son and the Holy Ghost.Close. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6377216&postcount=54);) I made one that I nicknamed "Voltron" once, but I didn't detail it into a full character (set).
Adolph_Kheebler 01-02-07, 02:07 AM	Close. I saw that one too. There was an alternate version of the same idea called The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost that I found once and can't seem to find again.
chicgeek 01-02-07, 03:26 AM	I've got a Stepford Cuckoo build that is a set of triplet telepaths, with a psion telepath Thrallherd base (min CL15, with CL14 and CL13 thralls). The main strategy of the build is the Save or Die powers, augmented by the awesome (and contested) Metaconcert beef (+1DC Power and Saves per participant; up to +10 for 10 participants). Your Thralls and Believers give you access to wide library of powers during the Metaconcert; and make sure some one has Clairvoyant Sense and the feat Burrowing Power, so that you can manifest without line of sight or line of effect. One problem is that most of those powers are Mind Affecting, so it's important to fill out the Thralls' power list with an array of energy/travel/creation powers; another problem is that Metaconcert lacks a lot of definition and can be interpreted in a few ways.
hovnarr 01-02-07, 10:18 AM	Basically, you want to have Astral Construct. You either go Telepath and take EK: Astral Construct at lvl 3, or you go Shaper and take EK:Mindlink to qualify at level 3. OR, you take another discipline and pick up both. The last alternative is not very good, since you'll be trying to fill too many niches. So, shaper or telepath? Shaper. You get Charm and Dominate for free already, so picking telepath means diminishing returns. Psionics is all about influencing the mind in itself, so you already have a vast amount of [mind-affecting] abilities to choose from. And do take EK: Energy Missile at level 5. Astral Construct + Energy Missile + Ectoplasmic Cocoon = immensly powerful offensive package for your level. Add thralls and a few utility believers (see the minions thread) and you're good to go.
chicgeek 01-03-07, 01:39 AM	Well, if you want to win friends and influence people, Telepath is the way to go. You can also try, Psionic Rogue from the Mind's Eye on the Wizards site. They get Diplomacy and Bluff, plus all the cool Rogue abilities. You'll still have to EK: Mindlink. And your power list is decent, but way limited as you've only got a few powers known. You can use Conceal Thoughts to boost your Bluff check for good Feinting. You can use your Believers as your spy network and theives' guild; that's always worthwhile--check out the Minion's thread floating around the board somewhere. Plus, as a Thrallherd, they're entirely disposable. Optimization-wise, it's not the best. You get poor rogue progression--going into Thrallherd at level 5?--gives you minimal rogue skills and the barest handful of power points.
BenSan 01-03-07, 03:38 AM	Well, a little update. I ended up going with Psion (Telepath).. I really do want to focus on the mind-whammy, and will be leaving the high raw damage output to the rest of the party. However, although I've committed my class picks, it's not too late to tweak my build (we do character-building flexibly; it's an online game so we don't have in-person roll-up sessions.) I may yet drop an EK on Energy Missile.. I'm almost certain my picks so far are significantly suboptimal, and even if I don't end up taking you master optimizers' advice, it's definitely useful to at least see what the kings of crunch are thinking so I can make an informed decision. chicgeek's suggestion about the use of believers is a good one; it's likely to be an urban game and my control over who I get for believers is limited (it will probably be mostly NPC classes), so I will probably be using them as a sort of conspiracy-type network of contacts in useful places, since mass combat seems highly unlikely. The thrall will be acting as a "bodyguard" of sorts. It's a level 9 game, and I'm a Psion 5/Thrallherd 4. The first-draft layout is as follows: Feats: Inquisitor (class prereq) Psionic Endowment Greater Psionic Endowment Psicrystal Affinity Psicrystal Containment Psionic Meditation Extend Power Powers: Mindlink (class prereq) Crystal Shard Attraction Sense Link Mind Thrust Aversion Read Thoughts Cloud Mind Psionic Tongues Demoralize Dispel Psionics Psionic Identify Inertial Armor Psionic Charm (class bonus) Psionic Modify Memory Schism Death Urge Psionic Divination I am almost 100% certain that Psionic Identify is a terrible choice, but not much at level 3 caught my eye and there is something very shiny about "Identify without a material component".. it probably comes of playing in too many level 1-3 games. Suggestions are more than welcome. There are a couple more first-level abilities than are entirely necessary; the idea is to have useful things for his Schismed side to do, although all things considered his better half is probably best off meditating to regain psionic focus each round so he can keep pumping those save DCs. He has a Headband of Intellect +4 and a Psionatrix of Telepathy, which gives him a nice save DC for his level, but also didn't leave him cash for much in the way of defensive items.. a weaksauce Amulet Of Natural Armor +1. A high save DC seems necessary since most of his core concept powers are "Will negates", but he could definitely stand to be more splatter-resistant. I'm well open to ideas in that regard; Inertial Armor was what came to mind but I'm sure there are better options. I can tend to be over-conservative with per-day resources, so I'm probably tending a little too PP-conservative with my thoughts and planning. As I said, I'm very interested in all kinds of advice. I probably won't take all of it; there's been a lot of good advice that just didn't mesh with my concept, and I'm not fanatically dedicated to optimizing this character, but I'm terrible at designing my characters statwise and hearing what the more experienced have to say helps me build someone nicely playable even if I don't go all the way.
hovnarr 01-03-07, 10:17 AM	However, although I've committed my class picks, it's not too late to tweak my build (we do character-building flexibly; it's an online game so we don't have in-person roll-up sessions.) Just as a reminder in all modesty, that doesn't really matter since you have access to Psychic Reformation at this level. Any feat, any power, any skill point - completely exchangeable and adaptable. In a campaign that allows characters to purchase psionic services just like healing at a temple, this is never a factor. Always use the best build for your present level. Just saying. Feats: Inquisitor (class prereq) Psionic Endowment Greater Psionic Endowment Psicrystal Affinity Psicrystal Containment Psionic Meditation Extend Power The endowment feats are terrible, don't bother. At this level, forget about EK: Energy Missiles. Do take EK: Metamorphosis and Metmorphic Transfer. This gives you better blasting than missiles (pyro/cryohydra), improved invisibility (pixie) and a few other utility abilities. Usually, you'll go for the blasting though. Metamorphosis kicks @ss in itself - besides hydra, check out the annis hag, roper and the giants available to your campaign. Aw crap, just realised you loose a manifester level which means you don't qualify for Metamorphosis at level 9. Ouch! And you don't get a 10th level feat since you're only Psion 5 too... Double ouch! This means you'll have to wait until level 12 to get the most game breaking power available to you. If you reconsider and take Egoist, you can have it by level 7 though :cool: If you don't, definetely pick up EK: Energy Missiles for now. EK: Astral Construct is also a must have. Also, Extend Power is really more useful as a 12th level pick since you can then make your buffs last all day long, so you might want to put that off. Also, do you really need Containment? When will you be expending 2 foci simultaneously? The earliest worthwhile use I can think of is an Extended, Split Energy Conversion at level 13, to last all day, but even that is pretty far fetched. I am almost 100% certain that Psionic Identify is a terrible choice So am I. Use a Dorje or Power Stone or pay someone to do it. not much at level 3 caught my eye Time Hop is very good. It's a third level Maze (only it works chronologically instead of spatially) that can also be used for utility (blink away a locked door to the future etc. You have no answer to invisibility/concealment/being blinded etc. Touchsight answers all that. Also consider Hostile Empathic Transfer, especially if you take the Psionic Body feat, which helps a lot. Mental Barrier is also an excellent defensive power if you don't use a Ring of Protection. You have Dispel Psionics already, so no need to mention that. ;) Other powers that you really should have: *Vigor + Share Pain (share the Vigor with your psicrystal, then use share pain. Usually more efficient than just buffing your AC) *Intellect Fortress (save the party from unexpected death, defeat dragons and blaster types with ease etc.) *Dimension Door (it is good to live)
hogarth 01-03-07, 10:53 AM	I am almost 100% certain that Psionic Identify is a terrible choice, but not much at level 3 caught my eye and there is something very shiny about "Identify without a material component".. it probably comes of playing in too many level 1-3 games. Suggestions are more than welcome. I'd switch some powers: -Attraction for Psionic Suggestion, and Aversion for Detect Hostile Intent (Psionic Suggestion + Psionic Charm can do the job of Attraction and Aversion, IMO) -Psionic Identify for Energy Wall -Mind Thrust for Touchsight -Death Urge for Psionic Dimension Door -Cloud Mind for Brain Lock (YMMV, but I think it'll be a handy one for your Schismed mind to use next level) I'd also take Linked Power instead of Extend Power for my first metapsionic feat.
PhaedrusXY 01-03-07, 11:06 AM	Hovnarr: Unfortunately, Intellect Fortress doesn't help much against dragons. It only works against things that allow Spell Resistance. So it would work vs. their spells, but not breath weapon. (Unless you have a super-nice DM who house-rules it. :D )
hovnarr 01-03-07, 02:31 PM	Hovnarr: Unfortunately, Intellect Fortress doesn't help much against dragons. It only works against things that allow Spell Resistance. Well, I'm not sure that's entirely correct: All damage from powers and psi-like abilities taken by subjects inside the area of the intellect fortress, including ability damage, is halved. This lowering takes place prior to the effects of other powers or abilities that lessen damage, such as damage reduction and evasion. Powers that are not subject to power resistance are not affected by an intellect fortress. So it would seem dragon breath is indeed off limits due to being (Su) and not encompassed by the fortress in the first place. (Psi), even if subject to power resistance, appear to be affected though. Semantics probably, but this might need some clearing up.
Lilt 01-03-07, 02:50 PM	Have a look at my D&D 3.5 Minions Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=763024) for some ideas for followers. There are a number of cheap and perfectly reasonable characters that you can pick up which may remove the need for certain abilities. IE: Why take psionic identify (which peopel agree is terrible) when you can have a 1st level follower who identifies things for free?
PhaedrusXY 01-03-07, 03:14 PM	(Psi), even if subject to power resistance, appear to be affected though. I don't really understand what you're saying with this statement. Of course powers that are subject to SR/PR are affected by Intellect Fortress. It is the psi-powers (and spells under transparency) that aren't subject to Spell/Power Resistance that are not affected by it. This is due to the following statement, which you quoted, and which is very clear: Powers that are not subject to power resistance are not affected by an intellect fortress.It likewise does not affect Supernatural abilities at all, as you noted. It is still a very nice power, but it won't help you vs. things that ignore Spell/Power Resistance.
hovnarr 01-03-07, 03:46 PM	I was just being a bit **** retentive with the wording ;) IF first specifies effectiveness towards powers AND psi-like abilities. It then makes the following exception to this general applicability: Powers that are not subject to power resistance are not affected by an intellect fortress. It only specifies "Powers that are not...", not "Powers and psi-like abilities that are not...". Meaning psi-like abilities that are not subject to power resistance still ARE affected by intellect fortress. This is very likely due to unfortunate wording though.
BenSan 01-03-07, 04:12 PM	IE: Why take psionic identify (which peopel agree is terrible) when you can have a 1st level follower who identifies things for free? The answer to that one is "I probably can't". As I said, my control over who I get for followers is somewhat limited - I can try to extend my influence in certain directions or onto non-plot-bearing NPCs who've previously failed their charm saves by a big enough margin, but I can't build them. That said, it is indeed pretty non-useful at this level and I would've swapped it out before posting if I'd had better ideas. I'll be looking over the ones in this thread. Regarding Endowment, the endowment feats are (as far as I can tell) the only feats that increase the save DC of psionic powers. Because the character concept is so reliant on "save negates" abilities, I wanted to pump up his save DC as much as I reasonably could. Containment was largely the result of wanting to be able to power the endowment feats reliably, although I guess Meditation + Schism can take care of that well enough. Why are the Endowment feats bad? They seem about on par with Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus to me, and those are popular feats with the "save negates" crowd, last I heard. What book is Linked Power in? I don't see it in SRD or Complete Psion. At this point Extend Power is, I admit, mainly for Schism and Inertial Armor, although there's honestly not much reason not to use it whenever it applies, since outside combat (where most of the work of mind-whammying goes on) regaining psionic focus is trivial. I'm curious as to why it's abruptly a good choice at 12 but not at 9 - is it so calamitous to have six hours (presumably during my eight hours' recovery rest) when I'm not buffed up? Admittedly it's a problem to be attacked in the middle of my recovery rest, but that doesn't really seem like Extend Power's fault. Most of the other metapsionic feats seemed largely inapplicable to my whammies. As far as Reformation goes: using it repeatedly seems like the kind of thing that will tick off this particular DM very quickly. As far as this PC's concerned, that feature alone makes it suboptimal. ;) The various other power suggestions are all good ones; I'll give the list further consideration when I have the chance. I'm not going to switch over to Shaper; while I appreciate the advice, this character's bread-and-butter is and will remain mind-whammy rather than blasting, and it seems like the reason to become a Shaper would be to be an excellent damage-dealer with mind-whammy secondary, which is probably a superior option in a typical D&D campaign but is at odds with the fundamental character concept in play here. However, there are a lot of suggestions here which will be good for making him a mind-whammy guy who doesn't keel over at the first sign of trouble, and those are the ones I'll be trying to harvest. Again, much thanks for all the advice!
hogarth 01-03-07, 04:48 PM	What book is Linked Power in? I don't see it in SRD or Complete Psion. At this point Extend Power is, I admit, mainly for Schism and Inertial Armor, although there's honestly not much reason not to use it whenever it applies, since outside combat (where most of the work of mind-whammying goes on) regaining psionic focus is trivial. Linked Power is in Complete Psionic; the metapsionic feats are in a subsection of their own after the other psionic feats, so maybe that's how you missed it. I don't like Extend Power because it costs 2 extra power points to use. So you can't use it yet with Schism (it would cost 9 pp and your maximum is 8) and there's not much point using it with Inertial Armor (manifesting an extended, unaugmented Inertial Armor would cost 3 pp vs. manifesting Inertial Armor twice a day for 2 pp).
Lilt 01-03-07, 05:04 PM	The answer to that one is "I probably can't". As I said, my control over who I get for followers is somewhat limited - I can try to extend my influence in certain directions or onto non-plot-bearing NPCs who've previously failed their charm saves by a big enough margin, but I can't build them. That said, it is indeed pretty non-useful at this level and I would've swapped it out before posting if I'd had better ideas. I'll be looking over the ones in this thread.Perhaps you can't build them, but can't you request a type of character? I mean, a 1st level wizard is probably a reasonable follower and they can cast the spell, albeit for the same price as you'd be doing it psionically.
hovnarr 01-03-07, 06:02 PM	Regarding Endowment, the endowment feats are (as far as I can tell) the only feats that increase the save DC of psionic powers. You are correct. Because the character concept is so reliant on "save negates" abilities, I wanted to pump up his save DC as much as I reasonably could. Two wrongs does not one right make. So, you've made yourself dependent on [mind-affecting] Will negates powers. That's bad, and the cure is not to add feats that amends the situation with up to 10% when you expend focus. Especially when they require many other support feats to run smoothly. The trick is to always hit the enemy where he's weakest. Some have weak Fort saves, some weak Will and some weak Ref. You should have appropriate powers to combat them all, exploiting their weaknesses. Some have great saves all together, which means you want no-save powers too. Some have spell/power resistance AND great saves, meaning you also want [no, no] effects. And finally, some are simply much more efficient to attack physically instead of with psionic effects, in which case you want Astral Construct. This does not mean that you should give up your heavy focus on mind-whammy, simply that you should acknowledge that this route will sometimes be impossible and make sure you have a back-up plan. EK: Astral Construct (preferably with boost construct) is a back-up plan that will work extremely well 95% of the time when your will save stuff won't, and a fantastically superior choice compared to psionic endowment. Really, if you only want one solution to any potential combat problems that may arise, take this one. It will be the most worthwhile feat you spend. Even if you don't heed any other advice from this board, Astral Construct will greatly improve your survivability and combat success. Why are the Endowment feats bad? They seem about on par with Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus to me, and those are popular feats with the "save negates" crowd, last I heard. Are they really? Please point me in the direction of the "save negates" crowd and I'll look into why they think these are good feats. Usually, when a feat reads "this improves the odds of success for some of the actions you may take in a gaming session with an additional 5%", there are more powerful options around.
BenSan 01-03-07, 07:13 PM	Well, thanks again for all the advice and input. I'm sold on Astral Construct; I was initially uncomfortable with it, but being able to address a wide variety of potential problems with two feats leaves more of my picks free to focus on my first love: The Whammy. I will probably be swapping out Psicrystal Containment and Extend Power for EK: Astral Construct and Boost Construct; ironically, Astral Construct would actually be quite a useful power to Extend, but I feel that Boost Construct is probably a better choice for it. I just can't bring myself to give up that delicious, delicious save DC on The Mind Whammy in all its myriad glorious forms, which is really a matter of my eccentricity and not something I should worry you gentlemen with. Now, on to the power suggestions. Psionic Suggestion is an excellent.. er, suggestion. I'm not sure how it slipped under my radar, except that I tended to think of it as a less-subtle spell than, on rereading, it actually is; it will be replacing Aversion. Touchsight, Mental Barrier, Intellect Fortress, and Dimension Door are all very shiny. Death Urge can probably go (it's not really my kind of Whammy), but Modify Memory is just my type and Schism and Psionic Divination I haven't heard anyone speak against. I'm leaning towards DD for the slot that frees up, unless anyone has a case for Intellect Fortress over Dimension Door. Mental Barrier will probably go in the sad, sad ML 6 slot in which Psionic Identify previously lurked; I had actually previously considered it and I'm not sure why it didn't go in. Touchsight will replace my late Demoralize, while Demoralize goes where Mind Thrust previously was. (Yes, my third-level slot picks were really quite wacky.) I'm very pleased with all the advice I'm receiving. If I don't use a particular piece, it's not personal or any such; as I've said, my goal here is to offset my own terribly non-optimized character-creation skills by hearing what the optimizers have to say and finding a livable middle ground where I can express my peculiarities but not die the first time an actual fight starts. I'm quite pleased with the results so far.
hovnarr 01-03-07, 08:41 PM	Cool, would you mind posting an updated build (feats and powers)? That last post was a little too hard to grasp. I'm pretty pleased with the way it's shaping up, and I don't mind a little eccentricity as long as it doesn't hamstring survivability ;)
BenSan 01-03-07, 08:53 PM	I can certainly offer an updated list, hovnarr. Feats: Inquisitor Psionic Endowment Greater Psionic Endowment Psicrystal Affinity (Single-minded personality) Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct) Psionic Meditation Boost Construct Powers: Mindlink Crystal Shard Attraction Sense Link Demoralize Psionic Suggestion Read Thoughts Cloud Mind Read Thoughts Touchsight Dispel Psionics Astral Construct (from feat) Mental Barrier Inertial Armor Psionic Charm (class bonus) Modify Memory Schism Psionic Dimension Door Psionic Divination Seeing the revised list like that, I think I may swap out Crystal Shard for Energy Ray - it "feels" a little more suitable for the character and I've got Astral Construct for power-resistant enemies.
hovnarr 01-04-07, 04:57 AM	The list looks good. Energy Ray instead of Crystal Shard? It could pass under the "eccentricity" clause, but normally Crystal Shard is the keeper for being an instantaneous creation effect. This is significant due to Anti-Magic/Psionic Field. That and Globe of Invulnerability are your two greatest problems after [mind-affecting]/Will save/PR issues (which your constructs handle adequately). The solution to the first is Crystal Shard, the solution to the second is to have one or two good 5th level+ powers to use offensively. I usually use rays to solve both problems, taking Split Psionic Ray, Crystal Shard and Energy Conversion at higher levels. Between those two and supernatural hydra breath from Metamorphic Transfer, you have all the blasting you need.
BenSan 01-04-07, 05:35 AM	See, this kind of thing is why I posed my question here. I'm not attached to Energy Ray, but thought it was more aesthetically pleasing. I had noticed the SR issue, but hadn't even realized that Shard could fire into an antimagic field. Back to Crystal Shard it is, as bizarre as shooting hunks of rock from my telepathic brain may be. The GM just bought Lords of Madness, so if beholders come up you may have just helped keep us a little farther from a TPK. :)
hovnarr 01-04-07, 08:52 AM	Glad to hear that. Now for completeness, I just wanted to point out that your only present weakness is lack of an area effect and a force effect, which is relevant against swarms and incorporeal foes, respectively. Large swarms with hive minds can be affected by [mind-affecting] stuff, but otherwise you, your astral constructs, your targeted spells and all melee dudes in your party are dead meat. I usually reason thus when picking offensive powers for my psions: Principal attack: Psionic Dominate. Converting foes to allies is simply the most efficient way to handle threats. Augments to improve duration, affect anything that lives, several creatures - basically you pay for what you need, and not for anything else, so it has built in PP economy. Not without problems though, since it targets, allows a will save, SR/PR and is [mind-affecting]. It's not strictly needed of course, but it happens to be the best offensive effect in psionics. Use it when you can get away with it. Secondary attack: Astral Construct. This complements dominate in a fantastic yet subtle way. You can't dominate undead and constructs, nor do you want to go toe-to-toe with them yourself (drain and stuff, or just hits very hard), so you send in your constructs that are immune to all those problems. Rule of thumb: fight the non-living with the non-living. Foes with high will saves are usually caster types, which you can readily grapple and smash to bits with your constructs. Many foes that have great SR/PR are more vulnerable physically, which is just fine and dandy for your constructs. Handle swarms: Can begin appearing already around level 2-3, usually resulting in a TPK if the party is unprepared. Matter Agitation is great at this level and conserves PP (has utility uses too). Energy Stun is another alternative. (Su) hydra breath is available at level 7 for some (via Metamorphosis + Transfer), later for others. Greater Metamorphosis solves the problem (and 100 utility problems) too, and saves you the feat in the higher levels. Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Mass is fantastic on its own in the higher levels and handles swarms to boot. Handle incorporeal: Telekinetic Maneuver is the best since it's good in its own right, Concussion Blast a meak alternative. There are precious few [force] effects in psionics. Incorporeal problems can start popping up after level 7, so this should probably fit in one of the first 4th level slots. Maneuver has a lot of competition from other good powers though, but covering your offensive bases should be your primary concern. Handle Null Field: Any instantaneous creation effect will do, but Crystal Shard is usually the best bang for your buck. Not something to waste a slot on early in your career though, when your BAB is too low to hit anything with even a touch attack. Handle Globe of Invulnerability: Dominate and Maneuver are already 4th level effects, so you don't need to worry about the minor version. There are few worthwhile 5th level offensive powers. Since you should have energy protection anyway, I usually take Energy Conversion and make do with targeted dispels until then. It's much more efficient not to waste a round on dispelling and just kill immediately though. Again, Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Mass fits this bill too. To me, this is all the offense a fully fledged psion needs. Most of these offensive options can and should be mastered by level 10. Depending on how spartan your nature is, you can handle anything your DM can throw at you (within reason) with 5-10 offensive powers, as long as you choose them carefully. This is great news, since it allows you to optimize defense and get loads of utility too in the remainder of your 36 slots.
hogarth 01-04-07, 09:11 AM	Remember though -- he's a thrallherd so any gaps in his power list might be covered by his sidekick. Have you given any thought to your thrall? Cleric or Druid is always good. :D Secondary attack: Astral Construct. Astral Construct is a decent power, but I think Energy Wall is an SR=no power with more overall flexibility (plus it wouldn't cost two feats). YMMV. Handle swarms: Can begin appearing already around level 2-3, usually resulting in a TPK if the party is unprepared. Matter Agitation is great at this level and conserves PP (has utility uses too). Matter Agitation wouldn't work against a swarm since it only targets a single object or creature.
hovnarr 01-04-07, 10:00 AM	Matter Agitation wouldn't work against a swarm since it only targets a single object or creature. Actually, Matter Agitation doesn't target at all: Matter Agitation Psychokinesis Level: Psion/wilder 1 Display: Auditory and material Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Area: 2 sq. ft. of surface area of an object or creature Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 1 Matter Agitation affects an area, that happens to be situated on an object or creature, but an area nevertheless. As for the swarm subtype: A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells. Not only does Matter Agitation not target, it's also a power that affects an area, meaning the swarm will take 150% damage from it.
sCRuLooSe 01-04-07, 11:23 AM	hogarth is right, a lot of your optimal selection is going to be based off of your thralls and the lattitude your DM allows. Being stuck with a pregen thrall is a lot different than being able to optimize your thralls. The last time I played a thrallherd and was permitted to build my own thralls, I has a mounted perma-wildshaped druid with strong emphasis on summoning and mounted combat and a bard/warchanter that specialized in enhancing all the summons/pawns. Since I have not seen it mentioned, double check with your DM which version of astral construct he is using, the XPH version or the complete psionics version. If the latter, you may want to take a second look at taking astral construct. I would also avoid anything ectopic; for the most part the usage of any of the ectopic form feats (or prestige class) is limited to a brief range of levels in which they are useful. After that, you need to retrain (if allowed) I ike telepathy a lot for schism if you are a mindbender. That extra action, while cost inefficient for many combinations, is especially powerful when used in combination with use of dominate or delivery of commands through mindlink. For the most part, however, the majority of the telepathy powers are either better off as power stones (True Mind Switch, Psychic Surgery), Suffer from the same penalties and tactical roll when used in combat as dominate (crisis of breath, crisis of life), or are inferior/lacking in versatility (aversion, metaconcert). Consequently, telepathy may not be the best choice. For the most part I would also avoid kineticist and shaper. The former is too cost (PSP) inefficient and scales poorly while most of the powers of the latter are overshadowed by powers available in the general list. Nomad is a good choice if you do not already have a party member that can cast the arcane version of these effects (for the most part). However, I would recommend Seer above most of the others. Many of the powers in the seer list cannot be duplicated by other classes (object reading, sensitivity to psychic impressions, hypercognition) and many of the powers can be used to better place yourself in situations where you can abuse dominate (command dominated figure at range while using clairvoyant sense to scout the situation, fate link your dominated subject, use escape detection to help conceal dominate from divinations). Hope some of these suggestions are useful.
sCRuLooSe 01-04-07, 11:57 AM	Double Post