Bastard Sword V. Falchion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bastard Sword V. Falchion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kabol
10-08-04, 03:22 AM Ok - I was reading up on the Falchion V. Greatsword thread the other day - and it It poped into my mind - How does the Falchion Bare agianst the Bastard Sword.

Now, Flat out - I beleive falchion will win .. But:

1) What if you have 1 lvl in EWM, making it so that you get a 2:1 for Strength when useing Bastard sword 2 handed?

2) Larger Versions - How does a Large Bastardsword < 2d8 19-20X2 > Fair Aginst Normal Falchion < 2d4 18-20X2 > ~ Also - question is, if you take EWP BS, making medium BS 1handed, can you use a larger version as 2 handed weapon? ~

3) How Dose a Large BS with EWM 2:1 ability stack agianst a Large Falchion <2d6 18-20X2>

~
Also - If Falchion out performs BS, Does the BS's Versitilty make up for that?

Meaning, that you can use it 1 handed and 2handed. Use it with shield - then drop shield and 2hand it when you want to DPS.
gbnogkfs
10-08-04, 07:50 AM 2) you can use the large BS, but you take a penalty on attack rolls for using a wrong-sized weapon
Fundin Strongarm
10-08-04, 08:51 AM Not sure about your questions but was wondered where you saw the falchion vs greatsword comparison.
Gol
10-08-04, 10:03 AM A Large Bastard Sword is functionally a Fullblade (A&EG)
Defcon4
10-08-04, 10:14 AM What breaks the Falchion for me is the 18-20/x2 crit. One Keen or improved critical later and it's 15-20/x2.

Bring it.
nihility
10-08-04, 01:41 PM Bastard Sword: 5.5 average damage, 1*STR, 19-20 crit
Falchion: 5 average damage, 1.5*STR, 18-20 crit

let x = your strength mod
let B = average damage of the bastard sword
let F = average damage of the falchion

then
B = 1.1*(5.5 + x)
F = 1.15*(5 + 1.5x)

I have ignored hit chance, since your initial choice of weapon should not alter this (of course, if you have already invested 5 feats into a particular weapon, then just use that weapon). By inspection, we see that the falchion will be superior when x > 0. So, if you have any strength mod, the falchion will do superior damage. However, if you use a buckler or are willing to drop your shield, you can use the bastard sword two-handed. In this case, consider your static damage modifier (strength bonus, weapon specialization, or anything else modified by a crit). The falchion is superior when:

let y = static damage modifier
1.15*(5 + y) > 1.1*(5.5 + y)
y*(1.15 - 1.1) > 1.1*5.5 - 1.15*5
y > 0.3/0.05
y > 6

So, the falchion will be superior when your strength hits 24, or you find some other way of getting a +7 bonus or greater to your damage. With improved critical or keen added, the situation becomes:

1.3*(5 + y) > 1.2*(5.5 + y)
y*(1.3 - 1.2) > 1.2*5.5 - 1.3*5
y > 0.1/0.1
y > 1

So, with improved critical or keen, you only need to have a +2 damage bonus to have the falchion be superior. Now consider when the falchion is better than the greatsword:

let G = average damage from greatsword = 1.1*(7 + y)

1.15*(5 + y) > 1.1*(7 + y)
y*(1.15 - 1.1) > 1.1*7 - 1.15*5
y > 1.95/0.05
y > 39

Yikes. You need a +39 to damage to make the falchion better, which probably isn't going to happen until your level is well into the teens (of course, a polymorphed power attacking frenzied berserker might do it sooner). If you toss in improved crit, you only need a +19 to make the falchion better. Back in 3.0, when keen and improved crit stacked, you only needed to have better than a +12 to make the falchion better, which wasn't so bad.

So, clearly, the greatsword is better except for extreme cases. The falchion is better than the bastard sword for most cases, but that's not counting the improved versatility of the bastard sword (sword and board vs. THF at your leisure) and the fact that many enemies are not subject to crits.
nihility
10-08-04, 01:44 PM Those calculations have been done before on these boards, I'm sure. I've seen them elsewhere, as well.
Zathyr
10-08-04, 06:20 PM Not sure about your questions but was wondered where you saw the falchion vs greatsword comparison.

It was here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=315768)

And Nihility, your Bastard Sword comparison didn't address the OP's real question. With the Powerful Blow (I think that's what it's called) trick from EWM, the Bastard Sword adds twice your Str mod when used 2-handed.

So revised:
B = 1.1*(5.5 + 2x)
F = 1.15*(5 + 1.5x)

6.05 + 2.2x > 5.75 + 1.725x for all non-negative values of x
This means as long as your strength mod isn't negative, you'll do more damage with the 2-handed Bastard sword. I won't run through the numbers, but the same holds true even with keen weaopns. Larger weapons favor the bastard sword even more.

However, this isn't a complete comparison. It leaves out other misc. bonuses to damage such as enhancement, morale, power attack, etc. If you have enough of these a crit can multiply that it dwarfs your bonus damage from strength, then the Falchion can be better.

Let's skip right to keen weapons:
Again, B: bastard sword damage, F: Falchion damage, x = Str mod, and y = other damage bonuses
B = 1.2(5.5 + 2x + y)
F = 1.3(5 + 1.5x + y)

The falchion out-performs the bastard sword in this instance when:
y > 1 + 4.5x

With power attack not impossible, but it's relatively rare in most fighter builds.
Considering you're spending a feat for the exotic weapon proficiency and a class level to get that exotic weapon trick, the bastard sword probably should be outperforming the falchion. Though it may seem a bit unbalanced if you consider the Dwarven Waraxe is directly comparable to the bastard sword in these calculations..
frisbeet
10-08-04, 07:28 PM Yep.

And then, if you're characacter's stats are in the region where Falchion beats BS, the gain is minimal:

If you somehow can do 50 dmg bonuse, not including str, and have a 12 or 13 str, you'll do 4.45 more damage/hit with the Falchion. Higher str decreases this Falchion favorable difference.

Seems pretty absurd, doesn't it?

On the other hand, with a high str and moderate damage, the difference in favor of the BS can be significant.
nihility
10-08-04, 09:31 PM And Nihility, your Bastard Sword comparison didn't address the OP's real question. With the Powerful Blow (I think that's what it's called) trick from EWM, the Bastard Sword adds twice your Str mod when used 2-handed.
Ah, I missed that. Thanks for picking up the slack.
nihility
10-08-04, 09:34 PM Wow... the analysis in that other thread is really sloppy.
Zathyr
10-08-04, 10:30 PM Ooops, I missed this too.

~ Also - question is, if you take EWP BS, making medium BS 1handed, can you use a larger version as 2 handed weapon? ~

No, the BS, Dwarven Waraxe, and Maul (from CW) are all in the same boat. It's an EWP to use it in one hand, martial weapon 2-handed. It's sized for your character either way. If you want to use a larger one you still need Monkey Grip, powerful build, or enlarge yourself before picking it up (wait, does that work?), or something along those lines.

Wow... the analysis in that other thread is really sloppy.
Heh, which one? I think there were at least a dozen. ;)
frisbeet
10-08-04, 11:19 PM Wow... the analysis in that other thread is really sloppy.

Which part?

Show me a thread that does neat analysis, so that we may all have a gold standard reference.

Furthermore yours and many other peoples embracing of when one weapon eclipses another misses the point:

If you're going to ask which weapon is better, better to judge by how much over a range of conditions, than by a turning point.

A single data point is misleading in nearly any context. Sloppy.
nihility
10-08-04, 11:31 PM If you're going to ask which weapon is better, better to judge by how much over a range of conditions, than by a turning point.

A single data point is misleading in nearly any context. Sloppy.
This makes little sense to me. The process is quite simple:

1) Look at your static damage modifier.
2) Compare to the turning point value.
3) Pick the inidicated weapon.
4) Repeat comparison with any other weapon you might be considering. The formulae are easily generalized.

Show me a thread that does neat analysis, so that we may all have a gold standard reference.
I didn't make any mathematical errors. That seems like a good start to me.
frisbeet
10-09-04, 04:03 AM This makes little sense to me. The process is quite simple:

1) Look at your static damage modifier.
2) Compare to the turning point value.
3) Pick the inidicated weapon.
4) Repeat comparison with any other weapon you might be considering. The formulae are easily generalized.

I didn't make any mathematical errors. That seems like a good start to me.

Neither, technically, have I. It's all right there. The formula I first provided was correct for the conditions I stated. What's more, to the reader, I provide a derivation. Then another one. And discuss caveats. With a bit of wit I daresay (or not). That's not slop, that's good intention. And another thing, any of you embarking on math-related careers: Never accept a formula just because someone else says it's true. That goes especially to forum "proofs". To the reader, click away on Zathyr's link to get an idea of what we're air-guitaring about.

You, nihility, are satisfied with the qualitative: A is better than B, under certain conditon X.

I prefer a quantitative comparison: A is better than B by Y amount, at certain condition X, better than B by Y+1 at X+1, and so on (not implying slope of 1 in comparisons, of course).

So take your "Wow... the analysis in that other thread is really sloppy.", shove it into your value judgement satchel, and I'll just crawl back to my lower quantitatively gray and sloppy (as opposed to black and white) plane.

Edit: And another thing. "The formulae are easily generalized." I'm sorry I'm so thin skinned, I just watched a debate, but I mean--should I be proud if I'm able to generalize said formula? I mean, this is begining algebra we're talking about, right? Hoo, I dunno, better leave it to you. Again, sorry, other things seem to be conspiring tonight.
gbnogkfs
10-09-04, 07:16 AM No, the BS, Dwarven Waraxe, and Maul (from CW) are all in the same boat. It's an EWP to use it in one hand, martial weapon 2-handed. It's sized for your character either way. If you want to use a larger one you still need Monkey Grip, powerful build, or enlarge yourself before picking it up (wait, does that work?), or something along those lines.

You can always use 2-handed a 1-handed weapon one size larger than yourself, but with a penalty of -2; if you can use a medium BS 1-handed, you can use a large BS 2-handed
Khazra Reborn
10-09-04, 02:35 PM Bastard sword shouldnt be taken to be a 1D10 damage weapon....this is the min max boards people, if your taking an EWP then you may as well make the weapon heavy if your taking a feat.
Ruxpin
10-09-04, 03:08 PM The real power from these weapons comes when you do take a EWP feat and then use it two handed. By taking 1 level in Exotic Weapon Master and the Uncanny blow trait, you increase your damage output significantly. This increases your str bonus to x2, instead of the normal x1.5 .

My question here though do you still need the EWP feat here to classify it as a EW for the uncanny blow trait? or would you be able to get away using it two handed without the EWP feat? Anyone know?
gbnogkfs
10-09-04, 03:45 PM My question here though do you still need the EWP feat here to classify it as a EW for the uncanny blow trait? or would you be able to get away using it two handed without the EWP feat? Anyone know?

depends on how you want to interpret the rules, I suppose...
Khazra Reborn
10-09-04, 04:08 PM My question here though do you still need the EWP feat here to classify it as a EW for the uncanny blow trait? or would you be able to get away using it two handed without the EWP feat? Anyone know?
Of course you need the EWP, its a pre-requisite for the exotic weapon master.
Ruxpin
10-09-04, 05:07 PM Of course you need the EWP, its a pre-requisite for the exotic weapon master.

Yes but that can be met a number of ways, for example being a dwarf, would give me the equivalent for Dwarven waraxe.... But I would guess you are right along those same lines.
Ranthanas
10-09-04, 05:33 PM Of course you need the EWP, its a pre-requisite for the exotic weapon master.

Not entirely. I can see this arising in two circumstances.

1st: You are a dwarf. You therefore get into EWM through your waraxe proficiency and get resounding blow for that. Someone sunders your axe- but you find a bastard sword. Does your resounding blow work for your replacement weapon (or even if you simply find a magical bastard sword).

2nd: You have two weapons of choice: one exotic ranged weapon and a sword in reserve. Can you qualify for EWM with your ranged weapon, then grab Uncanny Blow for your bastard sword wielded two handed- despite not having EWP (Bastard Sword)

As a DM, my answer to the first would be "Yes" (although I modify the RAW to prevent racial proficiencies qualifying you for EWM) and my answer to the second would be "No. Munchkin (although if he were to then buy either EWP or even WF(2 handed bastard sword) I'd probably allow it).

Hmmm... What's the synergy between EWM and Master Thrower like? (I'm getting a vision of a Halfling Master-thrower who throws a returning Talenta Sharrash (sp?))
dirkformica
10-09-04, 05:42 PM Note that you do still need Exotic Weapon Focus in order to qualify for Exotic Weapon Master from "Complete Warrior." So even if you do use a Racial weapon to qualify for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency requirement you'll still need to use a feat to Focus on an Exotic Weapon.
gbnogkfs
10-10-04, 11:58 AM You can have EWF in weapons different from BS to qualify: simple as that
SoulLord
10-11-04, 04:55 PM Assuming each threat as autoconfirmed and not taking into account
creatures inmune to criticals

assume this very simple formula
add the max damage for every chance of the roll and on the
instance of the critical add n times the critical multiplier
to the damage;

ex; keen greatsword with str of 18
max damage 12 + 6str = 18 on a critical 36
so
(18+18+18+18+18+18+18+18+36+36)/10
= 21.6

* each instance represents a 10%

heres a small table following that procedure

keen Greatsword | keen falchion | keen THW Bastard sword with ewm and trick

str 12 15.6* | 11.7 | 14.4
str 14 18 * | 14.3 | 16.8
str 16 19.2 + | 15.6 | 19.2 +
str 18 21.6 + | 18.2 | 21.6 +
str 20 22.8 | 19.5 | 24 *

I know it might not be the most accurate but its a good
and simple tool to evaluate this weapons

SoulLord
Shadowtiger
10-11-04, 09:39 PM The EWP very explicitly states that you can only use the EW stunts with exotic weapons that you have the Weapon Focus feat for.

You can take the uncanny blow stunt and use it with multple exotic weapons (spiked chain, bastard sword, dwarven war axe), but you need to spend another feat on each weapon you want to usse it with (WF).

Edit: I just noticed that I made a mistake, too.
;)

You can't use the Spiked Chain with Uncanny Blow - UB specifies that it must be an exotic ONE handed weapon, being used in two hands.

My confusion lead from some thinking of using two levels of EWM for Uncanny BLow and the exotic flurry feat (I can't remember the exact name) - the flurry feat IS usable with a spiked chain - UB is not. THe only two core weapons that could be used with Uncanny blow are dwarven war axe and bastard sword.
Overpowered_Munchkin
10-13-04, 09:44 AM I saw the discussion of having a scim or BS and which one that would do the most dmg. Anyways it just came to me, why not use a Talenta Tangat from the ECS? You get the 1d10 dmg, its exotic (qualifies for EWM) and has a 18-20 threat range.

How about that? ;)
Neonsamurai
10-13-04, 09:54 AM The Talenta Tangat as well as the Sharrash don't qualify for uncanny blow, since they're two-handed weapons.
Feldspar
10-13-04, 07:28 PM Those calculations have been done before on these boards, I'm sure. I've seen them elsewhere, as well.I don't know how many others have stumbled down this road before, but I posted them here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=112766) about a year ago. norm imp elem both
2:1d6 1:1d8 17.5 7.5 12 2
3:1d4 2:1d6 19.5 9.5 14 4
3:1d6 2:1d8 18.5 8.5 13 3
3:1d8 2:1d10 17.5 7.5 12 2
3:2d4 2:1d12 28 13 22.5 7.5
3:2d4 2:2d6 39 19 33.5 13.5

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kabol 10-08-04, 03:22 AM	Ok - I was reading up on the Falchion V. Greatsword thread the other day - and it It poped into my mind - How does the Falchion Bare agianst the Bastard Sword. Now, Flat out - I beleive falchion will win .. But: 1) What if you have 1 lvl in EWM, making it so that you get a 2:1 for Strength when useing Bastard sword 2 handed? 2) Larger Versions - How does a Large Bastardsword < 2d8 19-20X2 > Fair Aginst Normal Falchion < 2d4 18-20X2 > ~ Also - question is, if you take EWP BS, making medium BS 1handed, can you use a larger version as 2 handed weapon? ~ 3) How Dose a Large BS with EWM 2:1 ability stack agianst a Large Falchion <2d6 18-20X2> ~ Also - If Falchion out performs BS, Does the BS's Versitilty make up for that? Meaning, that you can use it 1 handed and 2handed. Use it with shield - then drop shield and 2hand it when you want to DPS.
gbnogkfs 10-08-04, 07:50 AM	2) you can use the large BS, but you take a penalty on attack rolls for using a wrong-sized weapon
Fundin Strongarm 10-08-04, 08:51 AM	Not sure about your questions but was wondered where you saw the falchion vs greatsword comparison.
Gol 10-08-04, 10:03 AM	A Large Bastard Sword is functionally a Fullblade (A&EG)
Defcon4 10-08-04, 10:14 AM	What breaks the Falchion for me is the 18-20/x2 crit. One Keen or improved critical later and it's 15-20/x2. Bring it.
nihility 10-08-04, 01:41 PM	Bastard Sword: 5.5 average damage, 1STR, 19-20 crit Falchion: 5 average damage, 1.5STR, 18-20 crit let x = your strength mod let B = average damage of the bastard sword let F = average damage of the falchion then B = 1.1(5.5 + x) F = 1.15(5 + 1.5x) I have ignored hit chance, since your initial choice of weapon should not alter this (of course, if you have already invested 5 feats into a particular weapon, then just use that weapon). By inspection, we see that the falchion will be superior when x > 0. So, if you have any strength mod, the falchion will do superior damage. However, if you use a buckler or are willing to drop your shield, you can use the bastard sword two-handed. In this case, consider your static damage modifier (strength bonus, weapon specialization, or anything else modified by a crit). The falchion is superior when: let y = static damage modifier 1.15(5 + y) > 1.1(5.5 + y) y(1.15 - 1.1) > 1.15.5 - 1.155 y > 0.3/0.05 y > 6 So, the falchion will be superior when your strength hits 24, or you find some other way of getting a +7 bonus or greater to your damage. With improved critical or keen added, the situation becomes: 1.3(5 + y) > 1.2(5.5 + y) y(1.3 - 1.2) > 1.25.5 - 1.35 y > 0.1/0.1 y > 1 So, with improved critical or keen, you only need to have a +2 damage bonus to have the falchion be superior. Now consider when the falchion is better than the greatsword: let G = average damage from greatsword = 1.1(7 + y) 1.15(5 + y) > 1.1(7 + y) y(1.15 - 1.1) > 1.17 - 1.155 y > 1.95/0.05 y > 39 Yikes. You need a +39 to damage to make the falchion better, which probably isn't going to happen until your level is well into the teens (of course, a polymorphed power attacking frenzied berserker might do it sooner). If you toss in improved crit, you only need a +19 to make the falchion better. Back in 3.0, when keen and improved crit stacked, you only needed to have better than a +12 to make the falchion better, which wasn't so bad. So, clearly, the greatsword is better except for extreme cases. The falchion is better than the bastard sword for most cases, but that's not counting the improved versatility of the bastard sword (sword and board vs. THF at your leisure) and the fact that many enemies are not subject to crits.
nihility 10-08-04, 01:44 PM	Those calculations have been done before on these boards, I'm sure. I've seen them elsewhere, as well.
Zathyr 10-08-04, 06:20 PM	Not sure about your questions but was wondered where you saw the falchion vs greatsword comparison. It was here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=315768) And Nihility, your Bastard Sword comparison didn't address the OP's real question. With the Powerful Blow (I think that's what it's called) trick from EWM, the Bastard Sword adds twice your Str mod when used 2-handed. So revised: B = 1.1(5.5 + 2x) F = 1.15(5 + 1.5x) 6.05 + 2.2x > 5.75 + 1.725x for all non-negative values of x This means as long as your strength mod isn't negative, you'll do more damage with the 2-handed Bastard sword. I won't run through the numbers, but the same holds true even with keen weaopns. Larger weapons favor the bastard sword even more. However, this isn't a complete comparison. It leaves out other misc. bonuses to damage such as enhancement, morale, power attack, etc. If you have enough of these a crit can multiply that it dwarfs your bonus damage from strength, then the Falchion can be better. Let's skip right to keen weapons: Again, B: bastard sword damage, F: Falchion damage, x = Str mod, and y = other damage bonuses B = 1.2(5.5 + 2x + y) F = 1.3(5 + 1.5x + y) The falchion out-performs the bastard sword in this instance when: y > 1 + 4.5x With power attack not impossible, but it's relatively rare in most fighter builds. Considering you're spending a feat for the exotic weapon proficiency and a class level to get that exotic weapon trick, the bastard sword probably should be outperforming the falchion. Though it may seem a bit unbalanced if you consider the Dwarven Waraxe is directly comparable to the bastard sword in these calculations..
frisbeet 10-08-04, 07:28 PM	Yep. And then, if you're characacter's stats are in the region where Falchion beats BS, the gain is minimal: If you somehow can do 50 dmg bonuse, not including str, and have a 12 or 13 str, you'll do 4.45 more damage/hit with the Falchion. Higher str decreases this Falchion favorable difference. Seems pretty absurd, doesn't it? On the other hand, with a high str and moderate damage, the difference in favor of the BS can be significant.
nihility 10-08-04, 09:31 PM	And Nihility, your Bastard Sword comparison didn't address the OP's real question. With the Powerful Blow (I think that's what it's called) trick from EWM, the Bastard Sword adds twice your Str mod when used 2-handed. Ah, I missed that. Thanks for picking up the slack.
nihility 10-08-04, 09:34 PM	Wow... the analysis in that other thread is really sloppy.
Zathyr 10-08-04, 10:30 PM	Ooops, I missed this too. ~ Also - question is, if you take EWP BS, making medium BS 1handed, can you use a larger version as 2 handed weapon? ~ No, the BS, Dwarven Waraxe, and Maul (from CW) are all in the same boat. It's an EWP to use it in one hand, martial weapon 2-handed. It's sized for your character either way. If you want to use a larger one you still need Monkey Grip, powerful build, or enlarge yourself before picking it up (wait, does that work?), or something along those lines. Wow... the analysis in that other thread is really sloppy. Heh, which one? I think there were at least a dozen. ;)
frisbeet 10-08-04, 11:19 PM	Wow... the analysis in that other thread is really sloppy. Which part? Show me a thread that does neat analysis, so that we may all have a gold standard reference. Furthermore yours and many other peoples embracing of when one weapon eclipses another misses the point: If you're going to ask which weapon is better, better to judge by how much over a range of conditions, than by a turning point. A single data point is misleading in nearly any context. Sloppy.
nihility 10-08-04, 11:31 PM	If you're going to ask which weapon is better, better to judge by how much over a range of conditions, than by a turning point. A single data point is misleading in nearly any context. Sloppy. This makes little sense to me. The process is quite simple: 1) Look at your static damage modifier. 2) Compare to the turning point value. 3) Pick the inidicated weapon. 4) Repeat comparison with any other weapon you might be considering. The formulae are easily generalized. Show me a thread that does neat analysis, so that we may all have a gold standard reference. I didn't make any mathematical errors. That seems like a good start to me.
frisbeet 10-09-04, 04:03 AM	This makes little sense to me. The process is quite simple: 1) Look at your static damage modifier. 2) Compare to the turning point value. 3) Pick the inidicated weapon. 4) Repeat comparison with any other weapon you might be considering. The formulae are easily generalized. I didn't make any mathematical errors. That seems like a good start to me. Neither, technically, have I. It's all right there. The formula I first provided was correct for the conditions I stated. What's more, to the reader, I provide a derivation. Then another one. And discuss caveats. With a bit of wit I daresay (or not). That's not slop, that's good intention. And another thing, any of you embarking on math-related careers: Never accept a formula just because someone else says it's true. That goes especially to forum "proofs". To the reader, click away on Zathyr's link to get an idea of what we're air-guitaring about. You, nihility, are satisfied with the qualitative: A is better than B, under certain conditon X. I prefer a quantitative comparison: A is better than B by Y amount, at certain condition X, better than B by Y+1 at X+1, and so on (not implying slope of 1 in comparisons, of course). So take your "Wow... the analysis in that other thread is really sloppy.", shove it into your value judgement satchel, and I'll just crawl back to my lower quantitatively gray and sloppy (as opposed to black and white) plane. Edit: And another thing. "The formulae are easily generalized." I'm sorry I'm so thin skinned, I just watched a debate, but I mean--should I be proud if I'm able to generalize said formula? I mean, this is begining algebra we're talking about, right? Hoo, I dunno, better leave it to you. Again, sorry, other things seem to be conspiring tonight.
gbnogkfs 10-09-04, 07:16 AM	No, the BS, Dwarven Waraxe, and Maul (from CW) are all in the same boat. It's an EWP to use it in one hand, martial weapon 2-handed. It's sized for your character either way. If you want to use a larger one you still need Monkey Grip, powerful build, or enlarge yourself before picking it up (wait, does that work?), or something along those lines. You can always use 2-handed a 1-handed weapon one size larger than yourself, but with a penalty of -2; if you can use a medium BS 1-handed, you can use a large BS 2-handed
Khazra Reborn 10-09-04, 02:35 PM	Bastard sword shouldnt be taken to be a 1D10 damage weapon....this is the min max boards people, if your taking an EWP then you may as well make the weapon heavy if your taking a feat.
Ruxpin 10-09-04, 03:08 PM	The real power from these weapons comes when you do take a EWP feat and then use it two handed. By taking 1 level in Exotic Weapon Master and the Uncanny blow trait, you increase your damage output significantly. This increases your str bonus to x2, instead of the normal x1.5 . My question here though do you still need the EWP feat here to classify it as a EW for the uncanny blow trait? or would you be able to get away using it two handed without the EWP feat? Anyone know?
gbnogkfs 10-09-04, 03:45 PM	My question here though do you still need the EWP feat here to classify it as a EW for the uncanny blow trait? or would you be able to get away using it two handed without the EWP feat? Anyone know? depends on how you want to interpret the rules, I suppose...
Khazra Reborn 10-09-04, 04:08 PM	My question here though do you still need the EWP feat here to classify it as a EW for the uncanny blow trait? or would you be able to get away using it two handed without the EWP feat? Anyone know? Of course you need the EWP, its a pre-requisite for the exotic weapon master.
Ruxpin 10-09-04, 05:07 PM	Of course you need the EWP, its a pre-requisite for the exotic weapon master. Yes but that can be met a number of ways, for example being a dwarf, would give me the equivalent for Dwarven waraxe.... But I would guess you are right along those same lines.
Ranthanas 10-09-04, 05:33 PM	Of course you need the EWP, its a pre-requisite for the exotic weapon master. Not entirely. I can see this arising in two circumstances. 1st: You are a dwarf. You therefore get into EWM through your waraxe proficiency and get resounding blow for that. Someone sunders your axe- but you find a bastard sword. Does your resounding blow work for your replacement weapon (or even if you simply find a magical bastard sword). 2nd: You have two weapons of choice: one exotic ranged weapon and a sword in reserve. Can you qualify for EWM with your ranged weapon, then grab Uncanny Blow for your bastard sword wielded two handed- despite not having EWP (Bastard Sword) As a DM, my answer to the first would be "Yes" (although I modify the RAW to prevent racial proficiencies qualifying you for EWM) and my answer to the second would be "No. Munchkin (although if he were to then buy either EWP or even WF(2 handed bastard sword) I'd probably allow it). Hmmm... What's the synergy between EWM and Master Thrower like? (I'm getting a vision of a Halfling Master-thrower who throws a returning Talenta Sharrash (sp?))
dirkformica 10-09-04, 05:42 PM	Note that you do still need Exotic Weapon Focus in order to qualify for Exotic Weapon Master from "Complete Warrior." So even if you do use a Racial weapon to qualify for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency requirement you'll still need to use a feat to Focus on an Exotic Weapon.
gbnogkfs 10-10-04, 11:58 AM	You can have EWF in weapons different from BS to qualify: simple as that
SoulLord 10-11-04, 04:55 PM	Assuming each threat as autoconfirmed and not taking into account creatures inmune to criticals assume this very simple formula add the max damage for every chance of the roll and on the instance of the critical add n times the critical multiplier to the damage; ex; keen greatsword with str of 18 max damage 12 + 6str = 18 on a critical 36 so (18+18+18+18+18+18+18+18+36+36)/10 = 21.6 * each instance represents a 10% heres a small table following that procedure keen Greatsword \| keen falchion \| keen THW Bastard sword with ewm and trick str 12 15.6* \| 11.7 \| 14.4 str 14 18 * \| 14.3 \| 16.8 str 16 19.2 + \| 15.6 \| 19.2 + str 18 21.6 + \| 18.2 \| 21.6 + str 20 22.8 \| 19.5 \| 24 * I know it might not be the most accurate but its a good and simple tool to evaluate this weapons SoulLord
Shadowtiger 10-11-04, 09:39 PM	The EWP very explicitly states that you can only use the EW stunts with exotic weapons that you have the Weapon Focus feat for. You can take the uncanny blow stunt and use it with multple exotic weapons (spiked chain, bastard sword, dwarven war axe), but you need to spend another feat on each weapon you want to usse it with (WF). Edit: I just noticed that I made a mistake, too. ;) You can't use the Spiked Chain with Uncanny Blow - UB specifies that it must be an exotic ONE handed weapon, being used in two hands. My confusion lead from some thinking of using two levels of EWM for Uncanny BLow and the exotic flurry feat (I can't remember the exact name) - the flurry feat IS usable with a spiked chain - UB is not. THe only two core weapons that could be used with Uncanny blow are dwarven war axe and bastard sword.
Overpowered_Munchkin 10-13-04, 09:44 AM	I saw the discussion of having a scim or BS and which one that would do the most dmg. Anyways it just came to me, why not use a Talenta Tangat from the ECS? You get the 1d10 dmg, its exotic (qualifies for EWM) and has a 18-20 threat range. How about that? ;)
Neonsamurai 10-13-04, 09:54 AM	The Talenta Tangat as well as the Sharrash don't qualify for uncanny blow, since they're two-handed weapons.
Feldspar 10-13-04, 07:28 PM	Those calculations have been done before on these boards, I'm sure. I've seen them elsewhere, as well.I don't know how many others have stumbled down this road before, but I posted them here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=112766) about a year ago. norm imp elem both 2:1d6 1:1d8 17.5 7.5 12 2 3:1d4 2:1d6 19.5 9.5 14 4 3:1d6 2:1d8 18.5 8.5 13 3 3:1d8 2:1d10 17.5 7.5 12 2 3:2d4 2:1d12 28 13 22.5 7.5 3:2d4 2:2d6 39 19 33.5 13.5