Battle of the funny casters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle of the funny casters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DIESCUMDIE
01-23-07, 05:47 PM Out of the alternative casting classes which is the most powerful?
How do these casters compare to vancian casters and other classes?
If you need a specific level to compare them to use level 20.
This is the order of strength in my untested opinion.

Full casting classes

Warlock
Dragonfire Adept
Shadow mage
Pact Binder
True Namer (anyone know where the thread for this is?)
Incarnate
Totemist
Swordsage
Warblade / Crusader

Everyone else
Bonzai
01-23-07, 06:22 PM It depends how you define power. Nothing these casters have can compare to a Miracle or a Wish spell. That being said, they shine in diferent areas.

Warlock (I'll lump Dragonfire Adept with them as they are essentially the same): The power of the Warlock depends on the campaign. If there are only one or two encounters a day, with time to prepare, the Wizards and Clerics Own all. However, the one strength of the Warlock is that they can go all day long. No spell books, no memorization, no rest. They can keep blasting just as long the fighters can keep swinging. That is their strength.

Incarnate: They are not really casters persay... they are melee oriented characters, with the ability to be incredible skill monkeys. Their ability to tailor their abilites on daily basis can rival a wizards flexability. They can also fill the role of a skill monkey, selecting melds to augment whatever skill is needed. raw power wise they fall behind even the Warlock.

Totemist: Same as Incarnate, except much more melee oriented, and can actually be quite formidible in that regard.

Sword Sage/Crusader/Warblade: Really shouldn't be considered true "Casters". They are all melee based, with some very decent attacks. Power wise, how do they compare to a lethal time stop combo? Same as anyone else.

True Namers: Kinda wonky mechanics, so it's hard to say. They are much more limited in effects, but some of what they can do is incredibly powerful (like the no xp gate). They keep up, but only in limited areas.

Shadow mage: I haven't heard much positive feedback on these guys. They are kind of like extreme sorcerers. Even more spells per day, but even more limited selection. As more powers are printed, they will get better, but for the most past it doesn't compare to the Wizards/sorc/Cleric spell list.
Xylem
01-23-07, 06:28 PM Shadow mage: I haven't heard much positive feedback on these guys. They are kind of like extreme sorcerers. Even more spells per day, but even more limited selection. As more powers are printed, they will get better, but for the most past it doesn't compare to the Wizards/sorc/Cleric spell list.
Shadowcasters have some problems, but they do eventually get Shadow Time, which is essentially Time Stop.

I don't think you can compare in abstract -- you have to do it at particular level.
ChristopherGroves
01-23-07, 06:31 PM It depends how you define power. Nothing these casters have can compare to a Miracle or a Wish spell. That being said, they shine in diferent areas.

Warlock (I'll lump Dragonfire Adept with them as they are essentially the same): The power of the Warlock depends on the campaign. If there are only one or two encounters a day, with time to prepare, the Wizards and Clerics Own all. However, the one strength of the Warlock is that they can go all day long. No spell books, no memorization, no rest. They can keep blasting just as long the fighters can keep swinging. That is their strength.

cough cough summon swarm dark speech cough cough
dog45
01-23-07, 09:55 PM True Namer (anyone know where the thread for this is?)

Truenamer Optimization Guide (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=614007)
GaffeR
01-23-07, 10:03 PM Incarnate: They are not really casters persay... they are melee oriented characters, with the ability to be incredible skill monkeys. Their ability to tailor their abilites on daily basis can rival a wizards flexability. They can also fill the role of a skill monkey, selecting melds to augment whatever skill is needed. raw power wise they fall behind even the Warlock.
Incarnates confuse me. The class in nice and I love Incarnum, but they're odd. They have a ton of melee enhancing soulmelds and class features, but only 1/2 BAB and a d6 HD, not to mention medium armor. They also have a ton of skill boosting melds, but only 2+Int skill points. Maybe that's the point: recovery from a poor basic class setup via Incarnum? I dunno.
DIESCUMDIE
01-24-07, 07:25 AM Okay lets consider their power at level 20. I know every class has its niche but this being the cha-op boards we can be critical enough to talk about plain power.

Incarnates also have a useful list of immunities which although not enough to stop a real caster are perfectly good for defence against high level monsters. (Ignore their low starting abilities, their melds more than compensate).
I haven't read the True Word thread yet, but I'm sure that gigantic trueword checks are in there so the dc of the truespeak is not really an issue.
Shadow caster I just assumed was reasonably powerful because alot of the spells seemed similar enough to wizard spells.
Swordsage is limited becasue its manouvers are still melee based.

I assume we're all agreed that none of these funny magic classes can rival an ordinary full caster? While all of these funny magic classes are more powerful than none casting classes?

Thanks for the truenamer link :)
rilem
01-24-07, 07:36 AM Again, most of these classes ARE NOT CASTERS. They're melee types and skillmonkeys with funny abilities. Not the same thing.

Shadowcasters are casters -- weak-as-kitten casters until high levels, but casters. Warlocks and DFAs are very limited, but strong in battlefield control or as very specific niche blasters. Martial Adepts aren't casters, period.

Besides, this belongs on the classes board, not here.
DIESCUMDIE
01-24-07, 08:17 AM They are magic using classes (as I said funny casters). An incarnate is not a rogue, although the incarnate uses skills he is catagorically more powerful (because he can also fly, be immune to mind control etc etc).
I've seen lots of wizard vs fighter, or wizard vs cleric threads here, so I thought this would be the right forum. Well if I'm wrong the thread will die naturally by tomorrow.
FriendlyFrog
01-24-07, 08:43 AM You completely forgot about psionics. Psions kick ass! :P
rilem
01-24-07, 09:13 AM I've seen lots of wizard vs fighter, or wizard vs cleric threads here, so I thought this would be the right forum. Well if I'm wrong the thread will die naturally by tomorrow.

Those threads are, for the most part, a riff on "I've got a fighter, how do I beat a wizard?" That's Character Optimization. Ranking classes from worst-to-first is best left to the classes boards.

A more approriate query would be how to use classes like Binder/Incarnate/whatever in a party without any real classes.
DIESCUMDIE
01-24-07, 12:21 PM I left out psionics because it seems to basically be just a smidgeon under the power of vancian casters

Those threads are, for the most part, a riff on "I've got a fighter, how do I beat a wizard?" That's Character Optimization. Ranking classes from worst-to-first is best left to the classes boards.

A more approriate query would be how to use classes like Binder/Incarnate/whatever in a party without any real classes.

Oh well I guess your right, its just that I know I'd get a better answer here. On most other threads most responses will be 'but my fighter can kill a wizards by sundering his pouch, wizards suck!'. Or 'all classes work together in the party and it doesn't matter if one is stronger than the other, stop asking such questions'.
FriendlyFrog
01-24-07, 02:09 PM Psionics might seem like they're based on vancian casting, but they're pretty much your generic "mana" using casting. Instead of "mana" you have power points as the fuel, and different spells use different amout of mana. Power levels and similar things are only used so that the system wouldn't seem that alien to those used to the normal vancian system.

Martial adepts use the vancian magic system, BTW. ;)
Bonzai
01-24-07, 05:33 PM Incarnates confuse me. The class in nice and I love Incarnum, but they're odd. They have a ton of melee enhancing soulmelds and class features, but only 1/2 BAB and a d6 HD, not to mention medium armor. They also have a ton of skill boosting melds, but only 2+Int skill points. Maybe that's the point: recovery from a poor basic class setup via Incarnum? I dunno.

Your right, they are an odd class. They don't fit neatly into any of the preset molds. I see them as being kind of being a Jack of all trades/master of none types. If the key to them is their flexibility. Need a tank? Well, they can fill in the role. Not as great as a fighter, but probably enough to get by. Need a healer? Well, they can kinda spot heal with the right melds. Need a trap finder? They can do that if they pick the right meld. Their melds also let them prepare for most anything. Fighting a wizard? Shape a spellward shirt, and your all set. Need fire resistance? Immunity to disease? Energy Drain? Etc... Whatever the situation requires, the Incarnate has something. Even better, they have access to most of this at lvl 1.

I really like Incarnates. Their a little wierd, but cool.
FriendlyFrog
01-25-07, 04:58 AM I kinda like mixing Legacy champion with Incarnate to enhance its abilities. Legacy champion has 3/4 BAB, d8 HD and 4+Int skill points, so it does everything better than the original.

Human (Feat) Rogue 2/Incarnate 8/Legacy champion 10 was a fun build, made an excellent skill monkey with some nice melee capabilities and a lot of added versatility. Now I'd like to see if it's possible to mix some Uncanny trickster to make it even better.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DIESCUMDIE 01-23-07, 05:47 PM	Out of the alternative casting classes which is the most powerful? How do these casters compare to vancian casters and other classes? If you need a specific level to compare them to use level 20. This is the order of strength in my untested opinion. Full casting classes Warlock Dragonfire Adept Shadow mage Pact Binder True Namer (anyone know where the thread for this is?) Incarnate Totemist Swordsage Warblade / Crusader Everyone else
Bonzai 01-23-07, 06:22 PM	It depends how you define power. Nothing these casters have can compare to a Miracle or a Wish spell. That being said, they shine in diferent areas. Warlock (I'll lump Dragonfire Adept with them as they are essentially the same): The power of the Warlock depends on the campaign. If there are only one or two encounters a day, with time to prepare, the Wizards and Clerics Own all. However, the one strength of the Warlock is that they can go all day long. No spell books, no memorization, no rest. They can keep blasting just as long the fighters can keep swinging. That is their strength. Incarnate: They are not really casters persay... they are melee oriented characters, with the ability to be incredible skill monkeys. Their ability to tailor their abilites on daily basis can rival a wizards flexability. They can also fill the role of a skill monkey, selecting melds to augment whatever skill is needed. raw power wise they fall behind even the Warlock. Totemist: Same as Incarnate, except much more melee oriented, and can actually be quite formidible in that regard. Sword Sage/Crusader/Warblade: Really shouldn't be considered true "Casters". They are all melee based, with some very decent attacks. Power wise, how do they compare to a lethal time stop combo? Same as anyone else. True Namers: Kinda wonky mechanics, so it's hard to say. They are much more limited in effects, but some of what they can do is incredibly powerful (like the no xp gate). They keep up, but only in limited areas. Shadow mage: I haven't heard much positive feedback on these guys. They are kind of like extreme sorcerers. Even more spells per day, but even more limited selection. As more powers are printed, they will get better, but for the most past it doesn't compare to the Wizards/sorc/Cleric spell list.
Xylem 01-23-07, 06:28 PM	Shadow mage: I haven't heard much positive feedback on these guys. They are kind of like extreme sorcerers. Even more spells per day, but even more limited selection. As more powers are printed, they will get better, but for the most past it doesn't compare to the Wizards/sorc/Cleric spell list. Shadowcasters have some problems, but they do eventually get Shadow Time, which is essentially Time Stop. I don't think you can compare in abstract -- you have to do it at particular level.
ChristopherGroves 01-23-07, 06:31 PM	It depends how you define power. Nothing these casters have can compare to a Miracle or a Wish spell. That being said, they shine in diferent areas. Warlock (I'll lump Dragonfire Adept with them as they are essentially the same): The power of the Warlock depends on the campaign. If there are only one or two encounters a day, with time to prepare, the Wizards and Clerics Own all. However, the one strength of the Warlock is that they can go all day long. No spell books, no memorization, no rest. They can keep blasting just as long the fighters can keep swinging. That is their strength. cough cough summon swarm dark speech cough cough
dog45 01-23-07, 09:55 PM	True Namer (anyone know where the thread for this is?) Truenamer Optimization Guide (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=614007)
GaffeR 01-23-07, 10:03 PM	Incarnate: They are not really casters persay... they are melee oriented characters, with the ability to be incredible skill monkeys. Their ability to tailor their abilites on daily basis can rival a wizards flexability. They can also fill the role of a skill monkey, selecting melds to augment whatever skill is needed. raw power wise they fall behind even the Warlock. Incarnates confuse me. The class in nice and I love Incarnum, but they're odd. They have a ton of melee enhancing soulmelds and class features, but only 1/2 BAB and a d6 HD, not to mention medium armor. They also have a ton of skill boosting melds, but only 2+Int skill points. Maybe that's the point: recovery from a poor basic class setup via Incarnum? I dunno.
DIESCUMDIE 01-24-07, 07:25 AM	Okay lets consider their power at level 20. I know every class has its niche but this being the cha-op boards we can be critical enough to talk about plain power. Incarnates also have a useful list of immunities which although not enough to stop a real caster are perfectly good for defence against high level monsters. (Ignore their low starting abilities, their melds more than compensate). I haven't read the True Word thread yet, but I'm sure that gigantic trueword checks are in there so the dc of the truespeak is not really an issue. Shadow caster I just assumed was reasonably powerful because alot of the spells seemed similar enough to wizard spells. Swordsage is limited becasue its manouvers are still melee based. I assume we're all agreed that none of these funny magic classes can rival an ordinary full caster? While all of these funny magic classes are more powerful than none casting classes? Thanks for the truenamer link :)
rilem 01-24-07, 07:36 AM	Again, most of these classes ARE NOT CASTERS. They're melee types and skillmonkeys with funny abilities. Not the same thing. Shadowcasters are casters -- weak-as-kitten casters until high levels, but casters. Warlocks and DFAs are very limited, but strong in battlefield control or as very specific niche blasters. Martial Adepts aren't casters, period. Besides, this belongs on the classes board, not here.
DIESCUMDIE 01-24-07, 08:17 AM	They are magic using classes (as I said funny casters). An incarnate is not a rogue, although the incarnate uses skills he is catagorically more powerful (because he can also fly, be immune to mind control etc etc). I've seen lots of wizard vs fighter, or wizard vs cleric threads here, so I thought this would be the right forum. Well if I'm wrong the thread will die naturally by tomorrow.
FriendlyFrog 01-24-07, 08:43 AM	You completely forgot about psionics. Psions kick ass! :P
rilem 01-24-07, 09:13 AM	I've seen lots of wizard vs fighter, or wizard vs cleric threads here, so I thought this would be the right forum. Well if I'm wrong the thread will die naturally by tomorrow. Those threads are, for the most part, a riff on "I've got a fighter, how do I beat a wizard?" That's Character Optimization. Ranking classes from worst-to-first is best left to the classes boards. A more approriate query would be how to use classes like Binder/Incarnate/whatever in a party without any real classes.
DIESCUMDIE 01-24-07, 12:21 PM	I left out psionics because it seems to basically be just a smidgeon under the power of vancian casters Those threads are, for the most part, a riff on "I've got a fighter, how do I beat a wizard?" That's Character Optimization. Ranking classes from worst-to-first is best left to the classes boards. A more approriate query would be how to use classes like Binder/Incarnate/whatever in a party without any real classes. Oh well I guess your right, its just that I know I'd get a better answer here. On most other threads most responses will be 'but my fighter can kill a wizards by sundering his pouch, wizards suck!'. Or 'all classes work together in the party and it doesn't matter if one is stronger than the other, stop asking such questions'.
FriendlyFrog 01-24-07, 02:09 PM	Psionics might seem like they're based on vancian casting, but they're pretty much your generic "mana" using casting. Instead of "mana" you have power points as the fuel, and different spells use different amout of mana. Power levels and similar things are only used so that the system wouldn't seem that alien to those used to the normal vancian system. Martial adepts use the vancian magic system, BTW. ;)
Bonzai 01-24-07, 05:33 PM	Incarnates confuse me. The class in nice and I love Incarnum, but they're odd. They have a ton of melee enhancing soulmelds and class features, but only 1/2 BAB and a d6 HD, not to mention medium armor. They also have a ton of skill boosting melds, but only 2+Int skill points. Maybe that's the point: recovery from a poor basic class setup via Incarnum? I dunno. Your right, they are an odd class. They don't fit neatly into any of the preset molds. I see them as being kind of being a Jack of all trades/master of none types. If the key to them is their flexibility. Need a tank? Well, they can fill in the role. Not as great as a fighter, but probably enough to get by. Need a healer? Well, they can kinda spot heal with the right melds. Need a trap finder? They can do that if they pick the right meld. Their melds also let them prepare for most anything. Fighting a wizard? Shape a spellward shirt, and your all set. Need fire resistance? Immunity to disease? Energy Drain? Etc... Whatever the situation requires, the Incarnate has something. Even better, they have access to most of this at lvl 1. I really like Incarnates. Their a little wierd, but cool.
FriendlyFrog 01-25-07, 04:58 AM	I kinda like mixing Legacy champion with Incarnate to enhance its abilities. Legacy champion has 3/4 BAB, d8 HD and 4+Int skill points, so it does everything better than the original. Human (Feat) Rogue 2/Incarnate 8/Legacy champion 10 was a fun build, made an excellent skill monkey with some nice melee capabilities and a lot of added versatility. Now I'd like to see if it's possible to mix some Uncanny trickster to make it even better.