Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elder_Kin 02-12-06, 03:28 PM	I'm rather new to the min maxing scene, however I wanted to open the discussion as to what weapons are the most kick ass. My friend and I have been fighting over which is better, the halberd or the fullblade. He has said that the fullblade is better because due to it's greater damage, and, if you get monkey grip, you are essentially going to pound the crap out of your enemies. I have been purporting the halberd since, not only do you get free trip attempts, but with the spinning feat you get an extra attack, and at lower levels you do the same ammount of damage. Further you have a better crit multiplier is better on the halberd. The only drawback I have seen with this build is that it burns one feat extra (halberd that is) I was just getting some feedback.
Kuroi Kenshi 02-12-06, 04:07 PM	The two are like apples and oranges, I think. A fullblade is more suited towards damage. You'd go with a feat tree like Power Attack>Improved Bull Rush>Shock Trooper, plus Leap Attack, and maybe Improved Sunder>Combat Brute. I'm not sure if fullblade is one of the few exceptions where Monkey Grip is actually more efficient than just power attacking, but Monkey Grip is also a less flexible feat, and you don't get bonuses to damage when charging, like with Leap Attack or Combat Brute...I'd never bother with it. Meanwhile a halberd is more suited for battlefield control. It's like the substitute spiked chain, almost. You'd go with a feat tree like Combat Expertise>Improved Trip, plus Combat Reflexes, Knockdown, Karmic Strike, Deft Opportunist, Jotunbrud or Powerful Build, etc. Though, the halberd also does 2 damage types, so that'll help a little vs some DR creatures. There's also the Spinning Halberd combat style, of course.
LordAsriel 02-12-06, 04:09 PM	The only drawback I have seen with this build is that it burns one feat extra (halberd that is) I was just getting some feedback. A lot of classes have martial proficiency off the bat, and as I recall, a halberd is a martial weapon, therefore negating your need to acquire that extra feat. The halberd is better, and, if your DM will allow it, it's a thrown weapon as well (if he doesn't, then I'll throw one at him because he's an idiot). Five-to-ten foot range depending on the strength of the character and the whether or not any special materials/enhancements were used/made during the halberd's creation. In general, a 16-19 strength character can throw one about five feet. 20-23 it'll be about 7.5 feet, 24-27 should be around 10 feet, and so on and so forth. Of course, throwing a weapon like a halberd will require the use of both hands. This is a house rule based on my real-life experience watching halberd- and glaive-throwing competitions, but it's not perfect. Just be honest in how you use the rule, because it can be easily abused.
PhaedrusXY 02-12-06, 04:38 PM	I have been purporting the halberd since, not only do you get free trip attempts, Unless you're using some odd feat that I have never heard of, you don't get free trip attempts with a halberd. You can use it to make trip attempts, but it costs you an attack action, just like a "normal" unarmed trip attempt. The only real advantage to using a halberd or other weapon to trip with is that you can drop the weapon instead of being counter-tripped. That being said, I much prefer the halberd to the fullblade. Fullblades are junk, really. You're better off using a Greatsword + Power Attack, or a bastard sword and taking a level of Exotic Weapon Master, if you want to dish out big damage with a sword.
amalcon 02-12-06, 04:45 PM	Halberd is better. Halberd + weapon spec is 1d10+2 (average 7.5). Fullblade + exotic weapon proficiency is 2d8 (average 9). Thus, Halberd does only 1.5 less damage. The purpose of including weapon spec with the Halberd is to balance out the feat requirements. Now, consider that you get tripping, the ability to set against a charge, and REACH! IMO, those abilities are worth way more than 1.5 damage. Reach, for one, is one of the most valuable abilities available. It grants extra attacks quite often, and you can usually compensate for the inability to hit what's next to you by taking a 5 foot step back. When that isn't an option, you can just as easily use a spiked gauntlet or something. Reach tripping can be even better, as when you trip someone they probably aren't going to keep moving. Reach also helps defensively, negating the reach of your enemies. Also, Halberds are much more common, as they actually have a presence on the DMG treasure tables. In short, the Fullblade has a little extra damage against big enemies. The Halberd is vastly better against groups, and is better defensively. Access to Spinning Halberd Style helps a lot. The Halberd is honestly my favorite melee weapon, pound for pound, not to sell short any of the others.
Kresalak 02-12-06, 04:50 PM	About Fullblade+Monkey Grip (since I will take every oppurtunity to say how crappy MG is), that will do .5 more damage then PAing with a Fullblade, at the cost of your versatility. Yes, you're trading the ability to do more damage against low AC opponents for .5 more damage when using a specific setting (-2). Taking Monkey Grip is like stabbing yourself with a rusted nail, just to "see what tetanus is like." In the case of a Fullblade, you're sending a feat to use it over a Greatsword, which is an increase of 2 damage. Depending on how many feats you have available, this may or may not be worth it.
PhaedrusXY 02-12-06, 04:52 PM	Now, consider that you get tripping, the ability to set against a charge, and REACH! Halberds don't have reach. Guisarmes do (which is why they're probably my favorite weapon).
Fwib 02-12-06, 05:31 PM	Is there a 3.5 source for the fullblade, or is it just the one from Sword and Fist?
neilthrun 02-12-06, 06:41 PM	While I'm no great statician, I feel monkey grip usefull. While going medium to large is no great leap, once the party mage starts casting enlarge person, giant size, righteous might, etc; some of the damage increases aren't as linear. Someoe correct me if I'm wrong though, I don't have the D&D books or calculators to plot comparitive graphs right now.
PhaedrusXY 02-12-06, 07:04 PM	While I'm no great statician, I feel monkey grip usefull. While going medium to large is no great leap, once the party mage starts casting enlarge person, giant size, righteous might, etc; some of the damage increases aren't as linear. Someoe correct me if I'm wrong though, I don't have the D&D books or calculators to plot comparitive graphs right now.The non-monkey-gripped greatsword is also going to be Enlarged, and so its damage will also be increased, etc. I remember seeing some math once (that I am too lazy to try reproducing at the moment) that showed that you don't start getting ahead statistically with Monkey Grip until your weapon damage hits something like 4d8 or so. If you're going to be turned permanently into something Gargantuan via PaO, and hence run around swinging a Collossal weapon, then it becomes worth it.
Slyver 02-12-06, 09:34 PM	I think we need a sticky on the unbelievable suckitudiness of monkey grip and weapon specialization. This is just getting out of hand. Slyver
Mommy was an Orc 02-12-06, 10:06 PM	There's also the general problem that a Fullblade is simply a large Bastard Sword in 3.5...
amalcon 02-12-06, 10:42 PM	Halberds don't have reach. Guisarmes do (which is why they're probably my favorite weapon). oops! My mistake! I don't know why I thought it had reach. In that case the Guisarme is probably my favorite weapon... but my evaluation still mostly holds: You get two useful abilities and using a more common weapon in exchange for 1.5 damage, if you cancel out the feat required for the Fullblade.
Warlock33 02-13-06, 01:21 AM	Sizing your weapon. Just. Doesn't. Matter. Honestly, this is just so stupid. I'm not trying to be mean here, but just think about it: Fullblade vs. Greatsword. One does 2d6, and one does 2d8. That's an average of two points of damage different. That just doesn't matter! Think about it this way, instead of taking an exotic proficiency (and a negative to attack if I remember correctly) you could take power attack. Monkey grip gives a negative two to hit, correct? Using the greatsword with power attack, sacrificing 2 to hit, you get 4 more damage. That's double than what the fullblade averages out to. Throw in stuff like leap attack and combat brute and shock trooper.... Fullblade is pointless and outdated.
X-Codes 02-13-06, 02:25 AM	Unless you're using some odd feat that I have never heard of, you don't get free trip attempts with a halberd. You can use it to make trip attempts, but it costs you an attack action, just like a "normal" unarmed trip attempt. The only real advantage to using a halberd or other weapon to trip with is that you can drop the weapon instead of being counter-tripped. That being said, I much prefer the halberd to the fullblade. Fullblades are junk, really. You're better off using a Greatsword + Power Attack, or a bastard sword and taking a level of Exotic Weapon Master, if you want to dish out big damage with a sword. Don't forget; two-handed tripping weapons have the very good advantage of being able to trip and wield a two-handed weapon at the same time without Monk levels. With a Greatsword you would have to drop/sheathe the sword unless you had Monk levels. You can also ready a halberd against a charge like a spear for double damage, which comes into play every once and a while, especially in the early game. As for that spinning halberd feat, honestly I don't like it so much. It damages as a light weapon which, arguably, means no Power Attack to it. You also have to take TWF while specializing in Halberd wielding. :rolleyes: If you want to pick up one of the ridiculusly feat-intensive Style feats, then I'd have to favor Three Mountains (for Spikes users) or Anvil of Thunder (for that Mountain King in all of us). They both also synergise well with Combat Brute/Shock Trooper as far as feat requirements go. High BAB characters with decent SA should consider Bear Fang IMO, since you can pin and get a nearly-full-attack of SA's against your opponent.
Obscure One 02-13-06, 04:29 AM	Sizing your weapon. Just. Doesn't. Matter. Honestly, this is just so stupid. I'm not trying to be mean here, but just think about it: Fullblade vs. Greatsword. One does 2d6, and one does 2d8. That's an average of two points of damage different. That just doesn't matter! Think about it this way, instead of taking an exotic proficiency (and a negative to attack if I remember correctly) you could take power attack. If you had a choice which would you pick? A +5 Greatsword does 2d6+5, a +5 FullBlade does 2d8+5; augmented the maximum damage the weapon can do is greater. Your arugment is like saying "Don't bother with that petty +2 weapon enhancement cause it's only plus 2" not thinking about feats like Improved Critical or "Keen" in the case of a Fullblade in which the damage is multiplied by a bigger number (2d8+5 = max dmg 21, 2d6+5 = max dmg 18) even if the "average" is a difference of 2. Monkey grip gives a negative two to hit, correct? Using the greatsword with power attack, sacrificing 2 to hit, you get 4 more damage. That's double than what the fullblade averages out to. Throw in stuff like leap attack and combat brute and shock trooper.... Thats why I don't advise (nor would even allow in a game) a Fullblade to be Monkey Gripped considering it's size category, and voila your still doing more damage on a Power Attack than little Mr. Greatsword. Fullblade is pointless and outdated. Maybe if you don't consider what a Fullblade can do on a crit...
X-Codes 02-13-06, 05:35 AM	If you had a choice which would you pick? A +5 Greatsword does 2d6+5, a +5 FullBlade does 2d8+5; augmented the maximum damage the weapon can do is greater. Your arugment is like saying "Don't bother with that petty +2 weapon enhancement cause it's only plus 2" not thinking about feats like Improved Critical or "Keen" in the case of a Fullblade in which the damage is multiplied by a bigger number (2d8+5 = max dmg 21, 2d6+5 = max dmg 18) even if the "average" is a difference of 2. When will people learn that on a decently-built fighter, the best weapon for pure damage output is the Flutter Blade after level 8ish? Especially if you go down the nuts damage machine path of Exotic Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserker, the 1d4/19-20/x3 weapon will outshine the 2d8/19-20/x2 weapon. On other builds it just takes a little longer. If you really want to use a Fullblade, go ahead. Just get a damn psychic reformation later on to change your feats so you don't always look like you're compensating for something.
Elder_Kin 02-13-06, 10:52 AM	A lot of classes have martial proficiency off the bat, and as I recall, a halberd is a martial weapon, therefore negating your need to acquire that extra feat. A first level human fighter using the fullblade would need to take the exotic weapon proficiency feat (Fullblade) and would probably go with weapon focus on the fullblade leaving a free feat to use. At second level you'd have probably have powerattack or some other feat. On the extra feat burning I meant using the spinning feat which can seriously make you an early killer. At first level you'd need to take Weapon Focus, Combat Reflexes and Two Weapon Fighting, leaving no feat for choice. At second level you get the spinning feat and have 2 attacks 4 levels earlier than anyone else. However the prereqs (TWF and CR) leave no choice for a free feat, though CR is rather nice and weapon focus is prettty much a given.
hogarth 02-13-06, 11:06 AM	While I agree that using a Monkey Gripped fullblade/greatsword is likely suboptimal, I find comparing it to using a fullblade/greatsword + Power Attack slightly misleading simply because you can also use Power Attack with the Monkey Gripped version as well. If someone could point out a non-Power-Attack, non-Shock-Trooper, non-Leap-Attack fighter feat that would do an extra 4.5 points of damage (on average) per attack, I'd love to hear it.
Kresalak 02-13-06, 11:15 AM	While I agree that using a Monkey Gripped fullblade/greatsword is likely suboptimal, I find comparing it to using a fullblade/greatsword + Power Attack slightly misleading simply because you can also use Power Attack with the Monkey Gripped version as well. If someone could point out a non-Power-Attack, non-Shock-Trooper fighter feat that would do an extra 4.5 points of damage (on average) per attack, I'd love to hear it. The problem is that MG gives a flat -2 to attack. With Power Attack, you usually have -0 to attack, but can take away -2 to do +4. Or -1 to do +2. Or -3 to do +6. Up to a maximum of your base attack bonus. You can use PA with MG, but you can never take less then -2. Also, with a non-fullblade weapon MG does at least .5 damage less then PA, and the fullblade costs you a feat. I have said it before and I will say it at every opportunity I get. Taking Monkey Grip is like stabbing yourself with a rusted nail, just to "see what tetanus is like."
FabulousRex 02-13-06, 11:17 AM	Taking a feat for the Fullblade is wasteful. Combining it with Monkey Grip is retarded. I'll show you why: 2 Feats: Exotic WP- Fullblade, Monkey Grip 3d8 damage at -2 to hit avg damage=13.5 2 Feats: Power Attack, W.Focus Greatsword 2d6+6 damage at -2 to hit (Power Attack for 3, W.Focus covers the 1pt loss) avg damage=13 I hope that .5 damage difference is worth the permanent -2 to hit, lack of neat qualifying feats (Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, etc.), troubles hitting high-ac monsters (power attack can be turned off), never finding your weapon in treasure, and the party Bard constantly making 'compensation' jokes at your expense.
DDogwood 02-13-06, 11:22 AM	Maybe if you don't consider what a Fullblade can do on a crit... If all you're worried about are crits, then you should be looking at the axe-type weapons. Your average damage over time will be the same, but the damage on individual crits will be much higher - meaning that when fighting an opponent with Damage Resistance, your average damage will be higher. Some people like to get the best Crit Roll they can, but the fact that you will almost certainly meet creatures with Damage Resistance that you can't negate, you want to get a high crit multiplier as well. A Keen Heavy Pick is always nice, and a Master Thrower with a Keen Throwing Scythe of Returning, and Deadeye Shot, is always good for a laugh.
hogarth 02-13-06, 11:23 AM	The problem is that MG gives a flat -2 to attack. With Power Attack, you usually have -0 to attack, but can take away -2 to do +4. Or -1 to do +2. Or -3 to do +6. Up to a maximum of your base attack bonus. You can use PA with MG, but you can never take less then -2. Also, with a non-fullblade weapon MG does at least .5 damage less then PA, and the fullblade costs you a feat. You didn't answer my question at all. Regular greatsword: power attacking for +0 to +2*BAB damage, -0 to -BAB to hit Monkey-gripped greatsword: power attacking for +3.5 to 2*BAB+3.5 damage, -2 to -BAB-2 to hit I certainly agree that it's a disadvantage to always take a -2 to hit. My question is: what other feat besides Power Attack (and its derivatives Shock Trooper and Leap Attack) gives you +3.5 damage on average? I'm not really trying to defend Monkey Grip; I'm genuinely curious what other feats give as good a damage boost.
Thindelock 02-13-06, 11:42 AM	Feats, generally, are too valuable and rare to spend flippantly. When the damage output on the weapons is anywhere near comparable, the exotic weapon loses unless it offers up versatility... and in this case, it doesn't. If we were comparing a halberd (d10/x3/trip) to a Talenta Sharrash (Eberron, 1d10/19-20/x4/trip), it's probably worth the EWP feat. Fullblade? Nah. Unless you are specifically trying to optimize damage at the cost of everything else, forget about fullblade.
Kresalak 02-13-06, 11:50 AM	You didn't answer my question at all. Regular greatsword: power attacking for +0 to +2*BAB damage, -0 to -BAB to hit Monkey-gripped greatsword: power attacking for +3.5 to 2*BAB+3.5 damage, -2 to -BAB-2 to hit I certainly agree that it's a disadvantage to always take a -2 to hit. My question is: what other feat besides Power Attack (and its derivatives Shock Trooper and Leap Attack) gives you +3.5 damage on average? I'm not really trying to defend Monkey Grip; I'm genuinely curious what other feats give as good a damage boost. Honestly, I'm not sure. Power Attack is really the best of the best for damage dealing. However, Psionic Weapon gives you +7 average damage for expending Psionic Focus, and Greater Psionic Weapon gives an average +14.
FabulousRex 02-13-06, 03:21 PM	I think the overall arguement can be summed up thusly: Monkey Grip by itself is subpar. A Fullblade is 3.0, and iffy in some games. Combined, they approach being decent, but at the cost of 2 feats that don't allow for interesting follow-up feats/PrCs makes it wasteful for .5 damage. It's true, you could use them if you wanted raw damage at all costs, but there's ways to get great melee damage without using 2 feats that don't build up to anything useful. Note that you can enter the Exotic Weapon Master PrC, but that requires yet another feat, and the best damage-dealing ability doesn't work with 2-handers, only 1-handers used in 2 hands...
hogarth 02-13-06, 03:36 PM	I think the overall arguement can be summed up thusly: Monkey Grip by itself is subpar. A Fullblade is 3.0, and iffy in some games. Combined, they approach being decent, but at the cost of 2 feats that don't allow for interesting follow-up feats/PrCs makes it wasteful for .5 damage. It's true, you could use them if you wanted raw damage at all costs, but there's ways to get great melee damage without using 2 feats that don't build up to anything useful. Note that you can enter the Exotic Weapon Master PrC, but that requires yet another feat, and the best damage-dealing ability doesn't work with 2-handers, only 1-handers used in 2 hands... Indeed. Here's a build I whipped up to illustrate: Strawmanocles, Gripper of Monkeys He defies all optimizers to defeat him! His only weakness? No, not kryptonite, but the suboptimal feat "Monkey Grip". What would you suggest in its place? Elan Psychic Warrior 3/Fighter 2/War Mind 10/Exotic Weapon Master 2/Occult Slayer 3 PW 1: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack PW 2: EWP (War Mace) Ftr 1: WF (War Mace), Ancestral Weapon Ftr 2: Monkey Grip PW 3: WarM 1: Leap Attack WarM 2: EWM 1: [Uncanny Blow] EWM 2: [Exotic Trip], Shock Trooper WarM 3: WarM 4: WarM 5: [Sweeping Strike], Improved Initiative WarM 6: WarM 7: WarM 8: EK: Touchsight WarM 9: WarM 10: OS 1: EK: Metamorphosis OS 2: OS 3: Note: Strawmanocles takes Expansion in order to turn his 3d6 large warmace into a 6d6 gargantuan warmace (eventually).
ancalimohtar 02-14-06, 02:44 AM	Alright, this is just getting silly. First of all, realize that there is no longer the fullblade. Realize that in 3.5, weapons have TWO qualities: size and handedness, not just size. A "regular" dagger and a "regular" greatsword are both Medium weapons; one is just Light and the other Two-handed. (In 3.0, one was Tiny and one was Large; weapon size determined handedness.) Understand that this new fullblade--the Large Bastard sword--is a weapon 1) for which you receive a -2 to hit because it is not sized for you, and 2) you cannot wield because it is a "handedness" category one ABOVE Two-handed for Medium creatures since it is Two-handed for Large creatures; this means in order to downgrade it to Two-handed for M creatures, you must take Exotic Weapon Proficiency to make it One-handed for L creatures. Therefore, you are now wielding a two-handed weapon that does 2d8 damage and penalizes you -2 on all swings. What people are trying to convey is this: This -2 is equivalent to PAing for -2, which yields +4 damage. Compare with a regular Greatsword, which does 2d6, does NOT require EWP, and does NOT penalize you to hit. You are trading 1 feat and -2 to hit for +2 damage. Crudely comparing the two options, you can use that feat to buy PA, then spend -2 to hit and get +4 damage. In the end, you have a feat that is much better than EWP, and you get more damage out of it, PLUS you can specialize in Greatswords so every Greatsword that drops you are great at, rather than finding Bastard Swords off Large enemies. (Realistically, you have more than 1 feat to spend, so both will have PA; the Greatsworder will just have 1 more feat to spend on good stuff like Imp. Bullrush etc.) (By the way, note that in the special case of the Bastard sword, Monkey Grip serves the exact same purpose as EWP. If you were to buy both feats, you could wield Large Bastard swords One-handed--this does NOT allow you to use Huge Bastard swords Two-handed.) ________________________________ Here's a better way of looking at Monkey Grip and Wield Oversized Weapon(Epic, CW): Large 2H weapons: Normal: Medium creatures cannot use MG: use at -2 attack as 2H MG+WOW: use as 2H Large 1H weapons: Normal: use at -2 attack as 2H MG: use at -2 attack as 1H MG+WOW: use as 1H Huge 1H weapons: Normal: cannot use MG: cannot use MG+WOW: use at -2, as 2H The distinction between weapon size and weapon handedness is confusing when you're trying to figure out how WOW works, but their examples clarify it.
charlesatan 02-14-06, 03:03 AM	Basically what everyone else is saying is that for the same amount of feats and penalties you expend in wielding the fullblade "optimally", you get to dish out as much (or nearly as much) damage as a great sword and power attack. That's not to say Fullblade doesn't have a use; rather, it only becomes useful (or better) in a specific situation. Such as if your enemy has a ridiculously low AC and you have the spare feats to expend. I mean Power Attack has a damage cap (your base attack bonus). If you want to do more damage than that, then the Monkey-Gripping, Full-blade wielding PC with Power Attack would probably be it as he can still do as much damage with Power Attack and get the 2d8 damage (although of course his attack bonus would be extremely low). From an optimization point of view, the only other time *it* might come in handy is in a Psychic Weapon Master build, what with the Expansion power and the class's ability to maximize damage from a weapon (plus combined with something like Vampiric Weapon power).
X-Codes 02-14-06, 03:47 AM	I hope that .5 damage difference is worth the permanent -2 to hit, lack of neat qualifying feats (Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, etc.), troubles hitting high-ac monsters (power attack can be turned off), never finding your weapon in treasure, and the party Bard constantly making 'compensation' jokes at your expense. *is the party Bard* Just out of curiosity, where was Bronzewood again? I seem to have forgotten which book it was in... Also, someone reply to my point that the Flutter Blade is a better melee weapon then the compensator?
WombleHunter 02-14-06, 07:14 AM	There's also the general problem that a Fullblade is simply a large Bastard Sword in 3.5... Quoted for Truth, with a capital T. Fullblade: 2d8 damage. Large Bastard Sword: 2d8 damage. Sure, there are some slight mechanical differences - unsurprising considering the 3.0 vs 3.5 source. But as I recall, the Fullblade description even says that the Fullblade is a Bastard Sword for Large creatures.