Battle Sorcerer and Divine Crusader [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle Sorcerer and Divine Crusader [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Votan
06-07-04, 06:06 PM This is an interesting build that I was playing with. Im posted it over in classes and it was pointed out that classes might be a suboptimal place so I am going to repost it here.

The idea was to create a mystic theruge that was fun to play at lower levels. I like the idea of blending arcane and divine magic but the current version is not very fun between levels 4 and 19.

So I thought about:

BattleSorcerer 10
Divine Crusader 2
Mystic Theurge 8

Good Points:

- It has medium BAB and d8 hit points until 12th level

- It is 10 levels before there is any loss of new spells

- A BattleSorcerer only knows 2 ninth level spells at 20th level anyway -- this build knows 2 and can cast more ninth level spells assuming a high charisma -- at 34 it is decisive)

- All spells cast based on charisma

- Can do synergies with divine and arcane spells

- Battle Sorcerer gets a martial weapon prof for free which can be used for the weapon that is going to be the divine weapon

- costs one feat (weapon focus) to enter divine crusader that isn't a bad first level feat if the battle sorcerer is played at first level.

Bad Points

- Limited number of spells known. This build knows 9 divine and 23 arcane spells of level 1+. A Battle Sorcerer 20 knows 25 arcane spells total (one more 8th and one more 9th level spell).

- Costs an additional feat (practiced spellcaster) to make up for the lost sorcerer casting levels.

I considered trying to force in a level of contemplative at level 12 to add a domian but dismissed it for 2 reasons:

1) difficult to make the skill points work as knowledge(religion) 13 is hard for a sorcerer build. Same issues with one level of Seeker of the Misty Isles. Warpriest costs a caster level and the BattleSorcerer can't afford one as does Rainbow Servant. Divine Oracle seems awkward to force in and gives a domain that does not really fit with the build.

2) People are mixed on how to read the addition of the domain. I argue that "Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells" as domain spell will add to the class spell list the way that they do for a ranger or wizard (i.e. one per day per spell level can be prepared). Others will focus on "She may only prepare and cast spells from her chosen domain" and outlaw this practice.

Since the easy way to fix this is to add the spells to the BattleSorcerer list (DM ends argument, build actually declines in value) I decided that this was not worth pursuing.

Anyway, it isn't a perfect build but it has play value all the way through. It is a little annoying at levels 11-13 but by level 14 it seems to be back on track (unlike the classic mystic theruge which takes a lot longer).

Comments?
JosephKell
06-07-04, 06:29 PM Ummm Divine Crusader gets a known spell list of just one Domain. But perhaps you can use a feat to gain an additional domain?

Either way, I wouldn't do it.
Laelenie
06-07-04, 08:04 PM Battle Sorcerer 8/dragonslayer1/Divine crusader 1/Mystic Theurge 9/Sacred exorcist 1

19 lvl sorc casting 9th level casting cleric divine meta

pertty good buil at high levels imho
ShadowDreamer
06-08-04, 12:45 AM i might be missing something, but i dont think your build meets the pre-reqs for MT laelenie, divine crusader 1 doesnt have 2nd level spells
Votan
06-08-04, 12:49 AM Originally posted by Laelenie
Battle Sorcerer 8/dragonslayer1/Divine crusader 1/Mystic Theurge 9/Sacred exorcist 1

19 lvl sorc casting 9th level casting cleric divine meta

pertty good buil at high levels imho

Nice build but how do you get the the 2nd divine spells for Mystic Theruge? Or is that what the sacred exorcist level does? If the latter it is an improvement on my build (divine metamagic) but it would be 18th level sorc. I can't think of a way to avoid losing 2 levels.
Votan
06-08-04, 12:52 AM Originally posted by JosephKell
Ummm Divine Crusader gets a known spell list of just one Domain. But perhaps you can use a feat to gain an additional domain?

Either way, I wouldn't do it.

Why not?

Is it a general dislike of mystic theruge or the limited number of divine spells?
TaisharMalkier
06-08-04, 01:09 AM Zug Zug.

Decent idea. Definately go with Healing Domain. Of course, you can take Arcane Disciple (or something like that?) and get all the Domain spells 1/day, but still not bad.

Cheers
Votan
06-08-04, 01:19 AM Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Zug Zug.

Decent idea. Definately go with Healing Domain. Of course, you can take Arcane Disciple (or something like that?) and get all the Domain spells 1/day, but still not bad.

Cheers

I looked at Arcane disciple first. The problem is that it requires a high WIS score (10+ spell level) and learning the domain spell as a sorcerer counts against your spells known. As a battle sorcerer has so few known spells that it is hard to make it work. It would work well with a regular sorcerer with more spells known and more attribute points for wisdom.

Healing is a really solid choice. I kinda liked Luck for Miracle if the DM is liberal in allowing this spell to be cast often to cast 8th level divine spells. But healing does expand the class options the most.
JosephKell
06-08-04, 02:11 AM The Divine Crusader casts Divine spells from ONE DOMAIN. They even say this explicitly. There is not vague loop-hole:

"Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level)."

So yeah, that is why I wouldn't do it. Maybe it is good for PC's with Relics, but I have NEVER been big on item reliance so that isn't a good reason.

-Jonathan
Votan
06-08-04, 11:44 AM Originally posted by JosephKell
The Divine Crusader casts Divine spells from ONE DOMAIN. They even say this explicitly. There is not vague loop-hole:

"Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level)."

So yeah, that is why I wouldn't do it. Maybe it is good for PC's with Relics, but I have NEVER been big on item reliance so that isn't a good reason.

-Jonathan

The idea behind the build was to increase the casting versitiblity of the Battle Sorcerer (9 new divine spells for 2 arcane) while keeping focus in the character's early career.

I didn't think of the relic angle at all.

But I do freely admit that the spell list is not helped much. I'd never do it with a pure sorcerer -- only the variant would give an excuse (pure sorcerer loses too much in high level arcane spells).
Lord Schpungus
06-08-04, 12:20 PM Originally posted by JosephKell
"Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level)."

But, when you gain a Domain, it's added to your class list. Since the Divine Crusader is a prepared caster, Like the Druid, it's added to her class list and she may prepare one spell per level from her new domain.
Votan
06-08-04, 12:32 PM Originally posted by Lord Schpungus
But, when you gain a Domain, it's added to your class list. Since the Divine Crusader is a prepared caster, Like the Druid, it's added to her class list and she may prepare one spell per level from her new domain.

This is also my interpretation. Massively helps the build if true.

The main obstacle right now is Knowledge(religion). If that can be boosted upwards somewhat then there are a lot of options that can be opened up for an extra domain.
Mommy was an Orc
06-08-04, 04:21 PM The only problem with that is they don't actually have a class list. They 'effectively' have a class list. The class seems pretty specifically worded that they are not to have a 2nd domain, even through a prestige class.

They're not a good MT class for that and other reasons - the main one being that you're likely a melee person if you're taking it.

Here's my current favorite Divine Crusader builds:
Paladin 3/(5 levels of at least +4 BAB)/DC 4/Hospitaler 8
Paladin 3/Monk 6/DC 4/Sacred Fist 7

(7 levels that give at least +5 BAB, turning, and qualify for Assassin)/Assassin 3/DC 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Trickster 6. 3rd level Assassin spells, 9th level Domain spells and at least +12 BAB/+6d6 Sneak. The important DC Domain to get is Luck, then get Divine Metamagic - persistent spell. That will allow you to persist Mislead, for Greater Invisibility all day as well as Miracle. Alternatively, Mysticism is great for all the personal combat power up spells it gives.

Originally posted by Votan
This is also my interpretation. Massively helps the build if true.

The main obstacle right now is Knowledge(religion). If that can be boosted upwards somewhat then there are a lot of options that can be opened up for an extra domain.
Votan
06-08-04, 05:21 PM Originally posted by Mommy was an Orc
The only problem with that is they don't actually have a class list. They 'effectively' have a class list. The class seems pretty specifically worded that they are not to have a 2nd domain, even through a prestige class.

They're not a good MT class for that and other reasons - the main one being that you're likely a melee person if you're taking it.

Fair enough. In any case I've concluded that no bonus domain can be forced in anyway as meeting the knowledge (religion) or survival hurdle on all possible prestige classes would require multi-classing the Battlesorcerer or a non-standard feat.

ANyway, it was an idea that had some synergy but the details are coming up a little short. Oh well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Votan 06-07-04, 06:06 PM	This is an interesting build that I was playing with. Im posted it over in classes and it was pointed out that classes might be a suboptimal place so I am going to repost it here. The idea was to create a mystic theruge that was fun to play at lower levels. I like the idea of blending arcane and divine magic but the current version is not very fun between levels 4 and 19. So I thought about: BattleSorcerer 10 Divine Crusader 2 Mystic Theurge 8 Good Points: - It has medium BAB and d8 hit points until 12th level - It is 10 levels before there is any loss of new spells - A BattleSorcerer only knows 2 ninth level spells at 20th level anyway -- this build knows 2 and can cast more ninth level spells assuming a high charisma -- at 34 it is decisive) - All spells cast based on charisma - Can do synergies with divine and arcane spells - Battle Sorcerer gets a martial weapon prof for free which can be used for the weapon that is going to be the divine weapon - costs one feat (weapon focus) to enter divine crusader that isn't a bad first level feat if the battle sorcerer is played at first level. Bad Points - Limited number of spells known. This build knows 9 divine and 23 arcane spells of level 1+. A Battle Sorcerer 20 knows 25 arcane spells total (one more 8th and one more 9th level spell). - Costs an additional feat (practiced spellcaster) to make up for the lost sorcerer casting levels. I considered trying to force in a level of contemplative at level 12 to add a domian but dismissed it for 2 reasons: 1) difficult to make the skill points work as knowledge(religion) 13 is hard for a sorcerer build. Same issues with one level of Seeker of the Misty Isles. Warpriest costs a caster level and the BattleSorcerer can't afford one as does Rainbow Servant. Divine Oracle seems awkward to force in and gives a domain that does not really fit with the build. 2) People are mixed on how to read the addition of the domain. I argue that "Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells" as domain spell will add to the class spell list the way that they do for a ranger or wizard (i.e. one per day per spell level can be prepared). Others will focus on "She may only prepare and cast spells from her chosen domain" and outlaw this practice. Since the easy way to fix this is to add the spells to the BattleSorcerer list (DM ends argument, build actually declines in value) I decided that this was not worth pursuing. Anyway, it isn't a perfect build but it has play value all the way through. It is a little annoying at levels 11-13 but by level 14 it seems to be back on track (unlike the classic mystic theruge which takes a lot longer). Comments?
JosephKell 06-07-04, 06:29 PM	Ummm Divine Crusader gets a known spell list of just one Domain. But perhaps you can use a feat to gain an additional domain? Either way, I wouldn't do it.
Laelenie 06-07-04, 08:04 PM	Battle Sorcerer 8/dragonslayer1/Divine crusader 1/Mystic Theurge 9/Sacred exorcist 1 19 lvl sorc casting 9th level casting cleric divine meta pertty good buil at high levels imho
ShadowDreamer 06-08-04, 12:45 AM	i might be missing something, but i dont think your build meets the pre-reqs for MT laelenie, divine crusader 1 doesnt have 2nd level spells
Votan 06-08-04, 12:49 AM	Originally posted by Laelenie Battle Sorcerer 8/dragonslayer1/Divine crusader 1/Mystic Theurge 9/Sacred exorcist 1 19 lvl sorc casting 9th level casting cleric divine meta pertty good buil at high levels imho Nice build but how do you get the the 2nd divine spells for Mystic Theruge? Or is that what the sacred exorcist level does? If the latter it is an improvement on my build (divine metamagic) but it would be 18th level sorc. I can't think of a way to avoid losing 2 levels.
Votan 06-08-04, 12:52 AM	Originally posted by JosephKell Ummm Divine Crusader gets a known spell list of just one Domain. But perhaps you can use a feat to gain an additional domain? Either way, I wouldn't do it. Why not? Is it a general dislike of mystic theruge or the limited number of divine spells?
TaisharMalkier 06-08-04, 01:09 AM	Zug Zug. Decent idea. Definately go with Healing Domain. Of course, you can take Arcane Disciple (or something like that?) and get all the Domain spells 1/day, but still not bad. Cheers
Votan 06-08-04, 01:19 AM	Originally posted by TaisharMalkier Zug Zug. Decent idea. Definately go with Healing Domain. Of course, you can take Arcane Disciple (or something like that?) and get all the Domain spells 1/day, but still not bad. Cheers I looked at Arcane disciple first. The problem is that it requires a high WIS score (10+ spell level) and learning the domain spell as a sorcerer counts against your spells known. As a battle sorcerer has so few known spells that it is hard to make it work. It would work well with a regular sorcerer with more spells known and more attribute points for wisdom. Healing is a really solid choice. I kinda liked Luck for Miracle if the DM is liberal in allowing this spell to be cast often to cast 8th level divine spells. But healing does expand the class options the most.
JosephKell 06-08-04, 02:11 AM	The Divine Crusader casts Divine spells from ONE DOMAIN. They even say this explicitly. There is not vague loop-hole: "Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level)." So yeah, that is why I wouldn't do it. Maybe it is good for PC's with Relics, but I have NEVER been big on item reliance so that isn't a good reason. -Jonathan
Votan 06-08-04, 11:44 AM	Originally posted by JosephKell The Divine Crusader casts Divine spells from ONE DOMAIN. They even say this explicitly. There is not vague loop-hole: "Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level)." So yeah, that is why I wouldn't do it. Maybe it is good for PC's with Relics, but I have NEVER been big on item reliance so that isn't a good reason. -Jonathan The idea behind the build was to increase the casting versitiblity of the Battle Sorcerer (9 new divine spells for 2 arcane) while keeping focus in the character's early career. I didn't think of the relic angle at all. But I do freely admit that the spell list is not helped much. I'd never do it with a pure sorcerer -- only the variant would give an excuse (pure sorcerer loses too much in high level arcane spells).
Lord Schpungus 06-08-04, 12:20 PM	Originally posted by JosephKell "Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level)." But, when you gain a Domain, it's added to your class list. Since the Divine Crusader is a prepared caster, Like the Druid, it's added to her class list and she may prepare one spell per level from her new domain.
Votan 06-08-04, 12:32 PM	Originally posted by Lord Schpungus But, when you gain a Domain, it's added to your class list. Since the Divine Crusader is a prepared caster, Like the Druid, it's added to her class list and she may prepare one spell per level from her new domain. This is also my interpretation. Massively helps the build if true. The main obstacle right now is Knowledge(religion). If that can be boosted upwards somewhat then there are a lot of options that can be opened up for an extra domain.
Mommy was an Orc 06-08-04, 04:21 PM	The only problem with that is they don't actually have a class list. They 'effectively' have a class list. The class seems pretty specifically worded that they are not to have a 2nd domain, even through a prestige class. They're not a good MT class for that and other reasons - the main one being that you're likely a melee person if you're taking it. Here's my current favorite Divine Crusader builds: Paladin 3/(5 levels of at least +4 BAB)/DC 4/Hospitaler 8 Paladin 3/Monk 6/DC 4/Sacred Fist 7 (7 levels that give at least +5 BAB, turning, and qualify for Assassin)/Assassin 3/DC 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Trickster 6. 3rd level Assassin spells, 9th level Domain spells and at least +12 BAB/+6d6 Sneak. The important DC Domain to get is Luck, then get Divine Metamagic - persistent spell. That will allow you to persist Mislead, for Greater Invisibility all day as well as Miracle. Alternatively, Mysticism is great for all the personal combat power up spells it gives. Originally posted by Votan This is also my interpretation. Massively helps the build if true. The main obstacle right now is Knowledge(religion). If that can be boosted upwards somewhat then there are a lot of options that can be opened up for an extra domain.
Votan 06-08-04, 05:21 PM	Originally posted by Mommy was an Orc The only problem with that is they don't actually have a class list. They 'effectively' have a class list. The class seems pretty specifically worded that they are not to have a 2nd domain, even through a prestige class. They're not a good MT class for that and other reasons - the main one being that you're likely a melee person if you're taking it. Fair enough. In any case I've concluded that no bonus domain can be forced in anyway as meeting the knowledge (religion) or survival hurdle on all possible prestige classes would require multi-classing the Battlesorcerer or a non-standard feat. ANyway, it was an idea that had some synergy but the details are coming up a little short. Oh well.