Battle Sorcerer Gish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle Sorcerer Gish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarkJester
03-23-05, 12:04 AM One of my players is trying to put together a decent Gish. Since I killed his last attempt at a Gish I'm going to try to help him out. I'm letting him use the Battle Sorcerer from unearthed arcana, as well as porting over the Soldier of Light from Deities and Demigods as a follower of Pelor.

Battle sorcerer gets d8 hitdice, light armor, 1 martial prof, and medium BAB in exchange for -1 spell per day and -1 spell known of each level.

Soldier of light (for our purposes) grants turn undead at level 1 and divine grace at second. It also grants all martial weapons, armor types, and shields.

He wants to use a shield and sword, and make use of divine shield / divine might. He just submitted the following to me. It doesn't work, and I thought I'd talk to you guys before consulting him again.

Human

1 Battle Sorc 1 (Familiar)Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting
2 Battle Sorc 2
3 Battle Sorc 3 Improved Shield Bash
4 Battle Sorc 4
5 Battle Sorc 5
6 Battle Sorc 6 Arcane Strike (CW)
7 Battle Sorc 7
8 Battle Sorc 8
9* Soldier Light 1 (Detect Undead, Turn Undead) Divine Shield (CW)
10* Soldier Light 2 (Divine Grace, Smite Undead)
11* Eld Knight 1 (Improved Two Weapon Fighting - Bonus feat)
12 Eld Knight 2 Divine Might (CW)
13 Eld Knight 3
14 Eld Knight 4
15 Eld Knight 5 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16 Eld Knight 6
17 Eld Knight 7
18 Eld Knight 8 Quicken Spell
19 Eld Knight 9
20 Eld Knight 10
*Levels marked with an asterisk do not gain caster level.

BAB +18
Cast Spells as 17th Level Sorcerer

Requirements:
Martial Weapon Prof (Eldritch Knight)
3rd Level Arcane spells (Eldritch Knight)
4 Ranks Knowledge Religion
NG Alignment
4 BAB
Follower of Pelor**
**As approved

Battle sorcerer does not have access to shield proficiency, so he cannot take improved shield bash at third. I'm trying to think of alternatives. He will be using a 32 point buy or rolling (he has not yet decided).

I've suggested he take a look at battle caster, and perhaps improved bucker defense in place of the two weapon fighting chain. He will be suffering from MAD if he attempts everything. Taking battle caster would ease allow him to use mithral full plate with no arcane failure, and let him get by with a lower dex.

I've also suggested Practiced Spell Caster. He has access to the 3.5 Core and the complete series. I'm pick and choose as far as things from other sources go, but go ahead and suggest them so I can take a look. The game we are about to start will begin at fifth level, he has 9000 gold. He knows it will be a city based adventure but that's about it.

If you have ideas as of how to work these into something resembling the build above (or not) feel free to chip in, I'm sure he will appreciate any help he can get.
Phaxi
03-23-05, 05:10 AM check this thread out, covers the most i belive: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=205534
Lord Zeb
03-23-05, 07:51 AM Seems like a solid build to me. Maybe swap Quicken and Imp. Shield bash since he won't be proficient til after SoL? Or move Imp. Shield bash up and swap it for ITWF?

Aside from random dips into PrCs like Dragonslayer, this seems like a solid build.

For feats, personally I would probably choose:

1 Power Attack, TWF
3 Sudden Quicken (Complete Arcane) or Quicken
6 Arcane Strike
9 Divine Shield
EK B Imp. Shield Bash
12 Divine Might
15 ITWF
18 GTWF

Cheers,
Zeb
AllistairAldred
03-23-05, 10:49 AM Sudden quicken requires notonly the quicken spell feat, but quite a few of the sudden feats, no way to get it at third level. Dont havemy books right here, but he might want to take divine might first. I am not familiar with Soldier of light, but i know paladin is very good for a two level dip, however, Better for a four level dip, although it seems you get much more with soldier of light. It all depends on if he wants to be an offensive gish, or a defensive gish.

-Allistair
Lord Zeb
03-23-05, 11:04 AM Good point - am away from my books so couldn't check that out -

Actually, let's amend the feats to:

1 Power Attack, TWF
3 Battle Caster (Comp.Arcane) - cast in Medium Armor!
6 Arcane Strike
9 Divine Shield
EK B Imp. Shield Bash
12 Divine Might
15 ITWF
18 GTWF

EDIT: And buy a Rod of Quicken ;)
DarkJester
03-23-05, 12:33 PM His original build was Paladin 4 Sorcerer 6 Eldritch Knight 10. He dropped the Paladin in favor of Soldier of Light to get more caster levels. It leaves him without divine favor for a couple levels but a three level hit to caster level is much more acceptable than five.

Sudden quicken would be a waste in his case since I allow sorcerers to spontanteously cast metamagic with no increase in casting time. I've tried to buff up sorcerers since no one ever plays them in my campaigns. He also gets a bonus metamagic or item creation feat at level 5 sorcerer, and eschew material components for free at first.

I'll suggest Lord Zeb's alteration to him, and direct him to this thread.

1 Power Attack, TWF
3 Battle Caster (Comp.Arcane) - cast in Medium Armor!
5 *Quicken Spell?
6 Arcane Strike
9 Divine Shield
EK B Imp. Shield Bash
12 Divine Might
15 ITWF
18 GTWF
NineInchNall
03-23-05, 01:03 PM Um, if he just wants a typical gish from the Battle Sorc, he should just go the simple route: Battle Sorcerer 8/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10.

I know it's boring and doesn't get all sorts of special abilities ( :weep: ), but it only misses ONE level of spellcasting and has a +18 BAB. Further, it only requires expending two feats for prerequisites (Iron Will and Dodge). Throw in some Arcane Strike, work toward a Persistent Wraithstrike, and you have an absolute combat monster. *grin*
TerrickTerran
03-23-05, 01:05 PM Yeah. I'd suggest the Battle Sorc/DS/SS/EK combo myself. First set that came to mind once I saw Battle Sorc.
DarkJester
03-23-05, 01:20 PM What is this wraithstrike?

Edit: Nevermind, complete adventurer
Sang-Drax
03-23-05, 01:20 PM Not taking Divine Might is just silly. It's the best thing for a sponatenous caster Gish.

I personally don't like the 1-level dip in Dragonslayer, unless the character really fits the concept.

As this is the CO boards, though, try one of the following:

Battle Sorcerer 8/Dragonslayer 1/Sacred Exorcist 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 6 for BAB +16, CL 19th, Divine Might, cast spells in Mithril Full Plate (Battle Caster)

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/Sacred Exorcist 4/Eldritch Knight 5
for BAB +17, CL 15th, more bonus feat from SS2, no feat requirements whatsoever, Channel Spell (really really good), Divine Might, cast spells in Mithril Twilight Full Plate. It's better in melee than the build above, but worse in spellcasting.

Bard 8/Soldier Of Light 2/Sublime Chord 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 7
for BAB +17, CL 17th (but with 9th level spells and faster progression than poor sorcerer), insane skills, Divine Might, Cha to hit (Snowflake Wardance), bardic music up to +8 hit/dmg (using the right instrument, Words Of Creation, and Song Of The Heart).

I have played with the Battle Sorcerer and I must warn you - it sucks. The loss of 1 spell known per level HURTS. With Sublime Chord available, it's by far the best Gish build one can make.
Kuroi Kenshi
03-23-05, 01:39 PM Sang-Drax said it all :D
NineInchNall
03-24-05, 01:32 PM I personally don't like the 1-level dip in Dragonslayer, unless the character really fits the concept.

You don't like the dip to DS unless it fits character reasons and then suggest a Sacred Exorcist? Dude, weird. :P I know, I know. He initially wanted to go SoL.

And I have to disagree with you on the Battle Sorc sucking bit, especially with the Draconic Breath feat. Arcane Strike + Draconic Breath + Full Plate = Dumb. One of my friends is playing a Paladin of Freedom/Battle Sorc with the above feats kicking in. It's just silly. He doesn't even cast any spells anymore except for detect magic and identify. It'll be even sillier when he qualifies for Sacred Exorcist.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkJester 03-23-05, 12:04 AM	One of my players is trying to put together a decent Gish. Since I killed his last attempt at a Gish I'm going to try to help him out. I'm letting him use the Battle Sorcerer from unearthed arcana, as well as porting over the Soldier of Light from Deities and Demigods as a follower of Pelor. Battle sorcerer gets d8 hitdice, light armor, 1 martial prof, and medium BAB in exchange for -1 spell per day and -1 spell known of each level. Soldier of light (for our purposes) grants turn undead at level 1 and divine grace at second. It also grants all martial weapons, armor types, and shields. He wants to use a shield and sword, and make use of divine shield / divine might. He just submitted the following to me. It doesn't work, and I thought I'd talk to you guys before consulting him again. Human 1 Battle Sorc 1 (Familiar)Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting 2 Battle Sorc 2 3 Battle Sorc 3 Improved Shield Bash 4 Battle Sorc 4 5 Battle Sorc 5 6 Battle Sorc 6 Arcane Strike (CW) 7 Battle Sorc 7 8 Battle Sorc 8 9* Soldier Light 1 (Detect Undead, Turn Undead) Divine Shield (CW) 10* Soldier Light 2 (Divine Grace, Smite Undead) 11* Eld Knight 1 (Improved Two Weapon Fighting - Bonus feat) 12 Eld Knight 2 Divine Might (CW) 13 Eld Knight 3 14 Eld Knight 4 15 Eld Knight 5 Greater Two Weapon Fighting 16 Eld Knight 6 17 Eld Knight 7 18 Eld Knight 8 Quicken Spell 19 Eld Knight 9 20 Eld Knight 10 Levels marked with an asterisk do not gain caster level. BAB +18 Cast Spells as 17th Level Sorcerer Requirements: Martial Weapon Prof (Eldritch Knight) 3rd Level Arcane spells (Eldritch Knight) 4 Ranks Knowledge Religion NG Alignment 4 BAB Follower of Pelor* **As approved Battle sorcerer does not have access to shield proficiency, so he cannot take improved shield bash at third. I'm trying to think of alternatives. He will be using a 32 point buy or rolling (he has not yet decided). I've suggested he take a look at battle caster, and perhaps improved bucker defense in place of the two weapon fighting chain. He will be suffering from MAD if he attempts everything. Taking battle caster would ease allow him to use mithral full plate with no arcane failure, and let him get by with a lower dex. I've also suggested Practiced Spell Caster. He has access to the 3.5 Core and the complete series. I'm pick and choose as far as things from other sources go, but go ahead and suggest them so I can take a look. The game we are about to start will begin at fifth level, he has 9000 gold. He knows it will be a city based adventure but that's about it. If you have ideas as of how to work these into something resembling the build above (or not) feel free to chip in, I'm sure he will appreciate any help he can get.
Phaxi 03-23-05, 05:10 AM	check this thread out, covers the most i belive: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=205534
Lord Zeb 03-23-05, 07:51 AM	Seems like a solid build to me. Maybe swap Quicken and Imp. Shield bash since he won't be proficient til after SoL? Or move Imp. Shield bash up and swap it for ITWF? Aside from random dips into PrCs like Dragonslayer, this seems like a solid build. For feats, personally I would probably choose: 1 Power Attack, TWF 3 Sudden Quicken (Complete Arcane) or Quicken 6 Arcane Strike 9 Divine Shield EK B Imp. Shield Bash 12 Divine Might 15 ITWF 18 GTWF Cheers, Zeb
AllistairAldred 03-23-05, 10:49 AM	Sudden quicken requires notonly the quicken spell feat, but quite a few of the sudden feats, no way to get it at third level. Dont havemy books right here, but he might want to take divine might first. I am not familiar with Soldier of light, but i know paladin is very good for a two level dip, however, Better for a four level dip, although it seems you get much more with soldier of light. It all depends on if he wants to be an offensive gish, or a defensive gish. -Allistair
Lord Zeb 03-23-05, 11:04 AM	Good point - am away from my books so couldn't check that out - Actually, let's amend the feats to: 1 Power Attack, TWF 3 Battle Caster (Comp.Arcane) - cast in Medium Armor! 6 Arcane Strike 9 Divine Shield EK B Imp. Shield Bash 12 Divine Might 15 ITWF 18 GTWF EDIT: And buy a Rod of Quicken ;)
DarkJester 03-23-05, 12:33 PM	His original build was Paladin 4 Sorcerer 6 Eldritch Knight 10. He dropped the Paladin in favor of Soldier of Light to get more caster levels. It leaves him without divine favor for a couple levels but a three level hit to caster level is much more acceptable than five. Sudden quicken would be a waste in his case since I allow sorcerers to spontanteously cast metamagic with no increase in casting time. I've tried to buff up sorcerers since no one ever plays them in my campaigns. He also gets a bonus metamagic or item creation feat at level 5 sorcerer, and eschew material components for free at first. I'll suggest Lord Zeb's alteration to him, and direct him to this thread. 1 Power Attack, TWF 3 Battle Caster (Comp.Arcane) - cast in Medium Armor! 5 *Quicken Spell? 6 Arcane Strike 9 Divine Shield EK B Imp. Shield Bash 12 Divine Might 15 ITWF 18 GTWF
NineInchNall 03-23-05, 01:03 PM	Um, if he just wants a typical gish from the Battle Sorc, he should just go the simple route: Battle Sorcerer 8/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10. I know it's boring and doesn't get all sorts of special abilities ( :weep: ), but it only misses ONE level of spellcasting and has a +18 BAB. Further, it only requires expending two feats for prerequisites (Iron Will and Dodge). Throw in some Arcane Strike, work toward a Persistent Wraithstrike, and you have an absolute combat monster. grin
TerrickTerran 03-23-05, 01:05 PM	Yeah. I'd suggest the Battle Sorc/DS/SS/EK combo myself. First set that came to mind once I saw Battle Sorc.
DarkJester 03-23-05, 01:20 PM	What is this wraithstrike? Edit: Nevermind, complete adventurer
Sang-Drax 03-23-05, 01:20 PM	Not taking Divine Might is just silly. It's the best thing for a sponatenous caster Gish. I personally don't like the 1-level dip in Dragonslayer, unless the character really fits the concept. As this is the CO boards, though, try one of the following: Battle Sorcerer 8/Dragonslayer 1/Sacred Exorcist 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 6 for BAB +16, CL 19th, Divine Might, cast spells in Mithril Full Plate (Battle Caster) Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/Sacred Exorcist 4/Eldritch Knight 5 for BAB +17, CL 15th, more bonus feat from SS2, no feat requirements whatsoever, Channel Spell (really really good), Divine Might, cast spells in Mithril Twilight Full Plate. It's better in melee than the build above, but worse in spellcasting. Bard 8/Soldier Of Light 2/Sublime Chord 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 7 for BAB +17, CL 17th (but with 9th level spells and faster progression than poor sorcerer), insane skills, Divine Might, Cha to hit (Snowflake Wardance), bardic music up to +8 hit/dmg (using the right instrument, Words Of Creation, and Song Of The Heart). I have played with the Battle Sorcerer and I must warn you - it sucks. The loss of 1 spell known per level HURTS. With Sublime Chord available, it's by far the best Gish build one can make.
Kuroi Kenshi 03-23-05, 01:39 PM	Sang-Drax said it all :D
NineInchNall 03-24-05, 01:32 PM	I personally don't like the 1-level dip in Dragonslayer, unless the character really fits the concept. You don't like the dip to DS unless it fits character reasons and then suggest a Sacred Exorcist? Dude, weird. :P I know, I know. He initially wanted to go SoL. And I have to disagree with you on the Battle Sorc sucking bit, especially with the Draconic Breath feat. Arcane Strike + Draconic Breath + Full Plate = Dumb. One of my friends is playing a Paladin of Freedom/Battle Sorc with the above feats kicking in. It's just silly. He doesn't even cast any spells anymore except for detect magic and identify. It'll be even sillier when he qualifies for Sacred Exorcist.