Battle Sorcerer/Incarnate/soulcaster/Abjurant champion? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle Sorcerer/Incarnate/soulcaster/Abjurant champion? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mordar
11-04-06, 11:58 PM so i was sitting here, thinking of a good class that mixed some of the goodies of being a gish, with incarnum and including the abjurant champion, and I came up with this idea, I might need some help from you guys in giving some good ideas of feats and soulmelds, something to make this class really shine up, this is basically the main build

Battle sorcerer 4/Incarnate 2/Soulcaster 10/Abjurant Champion 4

now, is this viable?, I made calculations and if i'm not wrong, this gives you

BAB: 14
CL: 18
Meldshaping class: 12

there are particular soulmelds I am planning to use and this is the claw of the wyrm from dragon magic, as this gives you 1d6 claw attacks (1d8 if you bound to your hands), also the dragon tail which gives you 1d8 + str of bludgeoning damage (2d6 if bound to waist)

now, is this build viable? what feats do you suggest me to take?, any other good soulmeld available to me?, I won't ask for spells, since there are several links for good list of sorcerer spells, so I won't bother you with that :(

Any book allowed of course (as long as there are not dragon magazines) thanks in advance for any help you can give me guys :eek:
Mordar
11-05-06, 01:46 PM anyone? hello?
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man
11-05-06, 02:01 PM Your build concept can run the gamut of anything from passable to strong. It all depends on the context of your build in relation to your fellow adventurers, the campaign parameters, etc.

Fill us in more on what your specific roles are, your group's builds, the DM's game type/parameters, starting level, etc.

This is all important - for your build is technically considered a "hybrid mutt" build. It's trying to accomplish a number of roles (quasi-primary spellcaster, melee combatant, soulmeld utilitarian, etc.). Which usually, is hard to accomplish. Also, there' nothing overpowering about your build. In fact, I have at the moment, some red flags being raised at the overall efficacy of your build.

Once we know this auxiliary info., we can better gauge how you fit into the big picture. :)
Mordar
11-05-06, 02:05 PM well primary I wanted to asset some of the flaws of an arcane caster with the eficiency of the incarnum soulmelds, giving him soulmelds that gives more BAB, raises some defense etc, mostly I want this character to stand on every part of the battleground and not get pounded away so easily, this is a concept build, I am not actually thinking of playing it unless some of the major flaws have been discovered and deal with :)
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man
11-05-06, 02:13 PM Gotcha.

But again, assessing the build is easier once we get a feel for the team dynamic (i.e. synergizing within the typical Iconic-4 group structure) its going to operate in. Because as it stands, the Battle Sorceror starts off as a total piece of crap class that really only shines in an extremely narrow set of circumstances.

Your prior statement doesn't really give much information about the group he'll be operating in. Because on his own, he'll suck. If not playing solo, he makes a poor tank ... or he makes an extremely poor primary arcanist.

As a 5th party member, he has a much stronger range of possibilities. For I see him filling a similar role in a party to that of a bard, although with a more self-serving bent.
Mordar
11-05-06, 02:19 PM well, this build comes in mind in a typical 1 caster, 1 fighter, 1 cleric type of party, I don't want him to be a support character, more of a gish with some little strenght from incarnum
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man
11-05-06, 02:27 PM well, this build comes in mind in a typical 1 caster, 1 fighter, 1 cleric type of party, I don't want him to be a support character, more of a gish with some little strenght from incarnumOne thing you may want to do is look at the 20 levels of this build separated into "career segments".

Levels:
1-5
6-10
11-15
16-20

Something like that. Gish traditionally have some levels (especially in the early career) that are not only uncomfortable, but extremely ineffective. This is assuming consistent play time as the Gish (Tank Substitute).

For example, at 6th level, your "Gish" will be a Battle Sorc 4 / Incarnate 2. How well do you think this guy can handle typical CR 6 combat encounters while playing the role as the party's Gish Tank?

The answer? It's not going to be pretty.
Mordar
11-05-06, 02:33 PM well, I do not intend to use this character at early levels, just at a lvl 20 epic game
Mordar
11-06-06, 10:20 PM :bump:
Mordar
11-08-06, 10:04 AM :bump: Seems like noone here likes incarnum :(
DaveTheMagicWeasel
11-08-06, 10:23 AM Well, I don't really like Incarnum, but as I understand it it tends to focus on natural attacks in melee (which sounds like what you're doing). So I'll try and help.

I'd firstly suggest Arcane Strike, which I assume you're going for anyway, because one expenditure of a spell slot should affect all your natural attacks. Then pick Soulmelds to get as many natural attacks as possible.

Secondly, I'd change Battle Sorcerer to normal Sorcerer. Right now, all it gives you is +1 BAB and some extra hit points. The armour casting is irrelevant as with Abjurant Champion you'll probably want to be using Mage Armour anyway, and the loss of spells known and slots simply isn't worth it. Use False Life for hit points and things like Wraithstrike, Critical Strike and True Strike for your to hit rolls. Preferably, you'll want a Druid to be around to cast Greater Magic Fang on you each morning as well.

I'd then throw in Power Attack as well to take advantage of Wraithstrike / True Strike. Finally, I'd recommend that you load up on a few touch spells in order to deliver them with your natural attacks (things liek Ghoul's Touch, Touch of Idiocy, etc) and become a good debuffer before you rip people apart.

There's also the possibility of changing the build round a bit to include some Monk levels, how about:

Monk 1 / Sorcerer 3 / Incarnate 2 / Enlightened Fist 4 / Soulcaster 10

That means you can take Ascetic Mage to get Cha to your AC, and you can flurry along with your natural weapons (very good when combined with Chill Touch, or Emerald Flame Fist). And it means you can spend Stunning Fist attempts to quicken and deliver touch spells as part of a full attack.

But the loss of Abjurant Champion is unfortunate, and you lose a couple of caster levels (no 9th level spells unfortunately), so I'm not sure whether its worth it or not without crunching the numbers on the two builds.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mordar 11-04-06, 11:58 PM	so i was sitting here, thinking of a good class that mixed some of the goodies of being a gish, with incarnum and including the abjurant champion, and I came up with this idea, I might need some help from you guys in giving some good ideas of feats and soulmelds, something to make this class really shine up, this is basically the main build Battle sorcerer 4/Incarnate 2/Soulcaster 10/Abjurant Champion 4 now, is this viable?, I made calculations and if i'm not wrong, this gives you BAB: 14 CL: 18 Meldshaping class: 12 there are particular soulmelds I am planning to use and this is the claw of the wyrm from dragon magic, as this gives you 1d6 claw attacks (1d8 if you bound to your hands), also the dragon tail which gives you 1d8 + str of bludgeoning damage (2d6 if bound to waist) now, is this build viable? what feats do you suggest me to take?, any other good soulmeld available to me?, I won't ask for spells, since there are several links for good list of sorcerer spells, so I won't bother you with that :( Any book allowed of course (as long as there are not dragon magazines) thanks in advance for any help you can give me guys :eek:
Mordar 11-05-06, 01:46 PM	anyone? hello?
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 11-05-06, 02:01 PM	Your build concept can run the gamut of anything from passable to strong. It all depends on the context of your build in relation to your fellow adventurers, the campaign parameters, etc. Fill us in more on what your specific roles are, your group's builds, the DM's game type/parameters, starting level, etc. This is all important - for your build is technically considered a "hybrid mutt" build. It's trying to accomplish a number of roles (quasi-primary spellcaster, melee combatant, soulmeld utilitarian, etc.). Which usually, is hard to accomplish. Also, there' nothing overpowering about your build. In fact, I have at the moment, some red flags being raised at the overall efficacy of your build. Once we know this auxiliary info., we can better gauge how you fit into the big picture. :)
Mordar 11-05-06, 02:05 PM	well primary I wanted to asset some of the flaws of an arcane caster with the eficiency of the incarnum soulmelds, giving him soulmelds that gives more BAB, raises some defense etc, mostly I want this character to stand on every part of the battleground and not get pounded away so easily, this is a concept build, I am not actually thinking of playing it unless some of the major flaws have been discovered and deal with :)
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 11-05-06, 02:13 PM	Gotcha. But again, assessing the build is easier once we get a feel for the team dynamic (i.e. synergizing within the typical Iconic-4 group structure) its going to operate in. Because as it stands, the Battle Sorceror starts off as a total piece of crap class that really only shines in an extremely narrow set of circumstances. Your prior statement doesn't really give much information about the group he'll be operating in. Because on his own, he'll suck. If not playing solo, he makes a poor tank ... or he makes an extremely poor primary arcanist. As a 5th party member, he has a much stronger range of possibilities. For I see him filling a similar role in a party to that of a bard, although with a more self-serving bent.
Mordar 11-05-06, 02:19 PM	well, this build comes in mind in a typical 1 caster, 1 fighter, 1 cleric type of party, I don't want him to be a support character, more of a gish with some little strenght from incarnum
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 11-05-06, 02:27 PM	well, this build comes in mind in a typical 1 caster, 1 fighter, 1 cleric type of party, I don't want him to be a support character, more of a gish with some little strenght from incarnumOne thing you may want to do is look at the 20 levels of this build separated into "career segments". Levels: 1-5 6-10 11-15 16-20 Something like that. Gish traditionally have some levels (especially in the early career) that are not only uncomfortable, but extremely ineffective. This is assuming consistent play time as the Gish (Tank Substitute). For example, at 6th level, your "Gish" will be a Battle Sorc 4 / Incarnate 2. How well do you think this guy can handle typical CR 6 combat encounters while playing the role as the party's Gish Tank? The answer? It's not going to be pretty.
Mordar 11-05-06, 02:33 PM	well, I do not intend to use this character at early levels, just at a lvl 20 epic game
Mordar 11-06-06, 10:20 PM	:bump:
Mordar 11-08-06, 10:04 AM	:bump: Seems like noone here likes incarnum :(
DaveTheMagicWeasel 11-08-06, 10:23 AM	Well, I don't really like Incarnum, but as I understand it it tends to focus on natural attacks in melee (which sounds like what you're doing). So I'll try and help. I'd firstly suggest Arcane Strike, which I assume you're going for anyway, because one expenditure of a spell slot should affect all your natural attacks. Then pick Soulmelds to get as many natural attacks as possible. Secondly, I'd change Battle Sorcerer to normal Sorcerer. Right now, all it gives you is +1 BAB and some extra hit points. The armour casting is irrelevant as with Abjurant Champion you'll probably want to be using Mage Armour anyway, and the loss of spells known and slots simply isn't worth it. Use False Life for hit points and things like Wraithstrike, Critical Strike and True Strike for your to hit rolls. Preferably, you'll want a Druid to be around to cast Greater Magic Fang on you each morning as well. I'd then throw in Power Attack as well to take advantage of Wraithstrike / True Strike. Finally, I'd recommend that you load up on a few touch spells in order to deliver them with your natural attacks (things liek Ghoul's Touch, Touch of Idiocy, etc) and become a good debuffer before you rip people apart. There's also the possibility of changing the build round a bit to include some Monk levels, how about: Monk 1 / Sorcerer 3 / Incarnate 2 / Enlightened Fist 4 / Soulcaster 10 That means you can take Ascetic Mage to get Cha to your AC, and you can flurry along with your natural weapons (very good when combined with Chill Touch, or Emerald Flame Fist). And it means you can spend Stunning Fist attempts to quicken and deliver touch spells as part of a full attack. But the loss of Abjurant Champion is unfortunate, and you lose a couple of caster levels (no 9th level spells unfortunately), so I'm not sure whether its worth it or not without crunching the numbers on the two builds.