Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dethro 02-07-07, 10:28 PM	Is it just me, or is this an amazingly simple combo that has definite benefits? Fighter 1/Stalwart Sorceror 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 9. Feats: Combat Casting; Practised Spellcaster; I can use basic light armor (especially if it's mithral or has one of the many ASF-reducing abilities), all martial weapons, I get free Weapon Focus, have a BAB of +18, Fort +10, Ref +5, and Will +13. Although I only have an 18 CL (20 with Practised Spellcaster) and I lose one of my highest-level spell slots, I think it's a good trade-off for good combat ability, no? What does everyone else think of this build?
Chimaera2000 02-08-07, 12:52 PM	It's a respectable gish build. Not exceptional, but respectable. Some things that could be improved: * Take two paladin levels instead of one fighter level. You sacrifice one level of spellcasting, but get the all-important divine grace ability. Getting your Charisma bonus added to your saves drastically increases your survivability. * You may wish to take the Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) prestige class instead of Eldritch Knight, which offers special abilities at the cost of Still Spell and the Eldritch Knight's bonus feat. You get free casting in light armor plus other special abilities as a trade-off. An advantage of Knight Phantom is that you can toss on a +1 buckler with a load of special abilities. You'll take -1 to hit, but having very affordable Fortification is worth it and your spellsword level will let you ignore its arcane spell failure. Plus, a little spell called wraithstrike (Complete Adventurer) makes your to-hit bonus irrelevant at higher levels except for how much you want to Power Attack! * Stalwart sorceror is actually a sub-optimal choice for this build, as you gain the extra hit points for only four levels, but then hurt your spellcasting for your entire prestige class advancement! Weapon Focus shouldn't be a big deal, as you have access to wraithstrike. I personally would tweak the build to be.... Paladin 2/Sorceror 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 9 ....unless I really wanted some extra feats in this build. My favorite gish build would still have to be Wizard 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4, though. I'm a huge fan of Tome of Battle, what can I say?
Dethro 02-08-07, 01:30 PM	The Paladin will work ok, as long as I'm LG, LE, CG or CE (paladin Variants). I get a smite as well which is a bonus. The BAB stays the same, same with Will and Ref, the Fort goes up by 1, and CL goes down by 1 (so CL 17, but still 20 with Practised Spellcaster). That prestige class looks ok, but unfortunately I cannot see too much use for the class abilities, so I'd probably stick with the Eldritch Knight. I've thought about it, and I've figured I could sneak a level of Archmage in there at the end. Personally I've always figured it's worth it to have at least one level of Archmage in most builds floating around somewhere. New and Revised Build is: Eldritch Knight - 3rd-level spells, SpellSword - 2nd-level spells, BAB +4 Abjurant Champion - 1st-level spells, BAB +5, Combat Casting Archmage - 7th-level spells, Spell Focus x2, Skill Focus(Spellcraft) Paladin 2/Sorceror 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7/Archmage 1 CL: 17 (20) BAB: 18 FORT: 13 REF: 4 WILL: 14 9 Feats (7, 1 human, 1 bonus): Combat Casting; Spell Focus (Evocation); Spell Focus (something?); Skill Focus (Spellcraft); Practised Spellcaster; 1 Reserve Feat; (Actually speaking of Cha synergy... I made a character for fun, basically using as much synergy into one ability as possible. Have a quick look, who says Charisma is the dump stat?) EXTRA CHARACTER GOODIES (Sir Flashheart!) Paladin 2/Monk 2/Sorceror 6/Enlightened Fist 10 Ascetic Knight Ascetic Mage Force of Personality Superior Unarmed Strike Practised Spellcaster Stunning Fist (B) Charisma to saves; Charisma replaces Wisdom for Will saves; Charisma replaces Wisdom for AC; Paladin & Monk & Enlightened Fist levels stack for unarmed damage; Monk & Sorceror & Enlightened Fist levels stack for AC bonus; BAB: +2 +1 +3 +7=+13 Fort: +3 +3 +2 +3=+11 Ref: +0 +3 +2 +7=+12 Will: +0 +3 +5 +7=+15 CL: 14(18) - 7th level spells AC: 10+10(Cha)+3(Monk)+4(Shield)+5(Ring of Protection)+5(Natural Armor)+3(Dex) Unarmed damage as: 19th level monk; AC Bonus as: 18th level monk; Speed as: 12th level monk; (I thought about throwing in Abjurant Champion here too but that would actually be counter-efficient to the build, since Sorceror levels stack for a few things).
Hyfigh 02-08-07, 01:35 PM	The only response that I can really formulate is that its already been done. In fact, there is an entire thread devoted to different gish builds here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=743463). I'm not saying that the builds you present are ineffective, I just don't see why you wanted to dedicate a thread to the builds as though you've thought up something new. I could, of course, be misunderstanding. Are you asking for help with a gish build?
Dethro 02-08-07, 01:44 PM	Because I'm guilty of not searching the boards to find things sometimes, especially when I have a post typed up already and I'm in a hurry. Plus, I'm just curious as to what people's responses are. After all, before clicking that link I've never before stumbled upon the Theoretical Optimization board and so I'm assuming that other people haven't either. This was basically a 5-second post during a work break which I only now have time to expand and reply upon. All I'm asking for is an opinion on what could be done to improve this without becoming MAD.
Hyfigh 02-08-07, 02:06 PM	I see. I apologize then. :embarrass As far as the build goes, it's a decent build. Having the Paladin in there is very nice. Hexblade can replace the Paladin for the same effect. My favorite gish is Pally OR Hexblade 2/Monk 1/Battle Sorc 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champ 5/Edlritch Knight OR Knight Phantom 8. It provides 8th level spells with a BAB 19 which means CL 19. With Ascetic Mage (feat) and divine grave you get your charisma to your AC and saves as well as being your casting stat. P.S.- The Theoretical Optimization was formerly known as the OC (Optimization Challenge) board.
Dethro 02-08-07, 02:17 PM	Paladin is good if you're ok with choosing one of the alignment extremes... Hexblade just causes a little bit of a problem since it doesn't give you proficiency in medium or heavy armor. Would be interesting since you get 1/day cursing abilities, not to mention a further boost to will :p I've had a great fondness for those various class-merging feats, as they encourage interesting combinations that otherwise would be less effective. EDIT: Disregard my horrible maths above, the numbers for the first character should be as follows: BAB: +17 Fort: +12 Ref: +4 Will: +14 CL: 17. Honestly, I'm not normally this atrocious at adding up, ffs it's simple mathematics!
Hyfigh 02-08-07, 02:24 PM	If alignment is the only issue you have with the paladin, why not use the variants in UA? You're already using the Battle Sorcerer... For the Hexblade version, the Spellsword level can be dropped and replaced with EK or KP (whichever you decided to take). I generally don't wear much armor with my gish anyways because magic can provide a much grater protection. Edit: Another thought, adding Dragon Slayer into the mix will give you the armor proficiencies. A single level add's a caster level so it only hurts in that you need two feats.
Dethro 02-08-07, 02:43 PM	When I mentioned Alignment I was referring to them anyway, since they are all extremes of alignment (LG, LE, CG, CE). I was actually using the variant called Stalwart Sorceror from Complete Mage but I've decided against it because, as Chimaera2000 above stated, it's not too useful once I get past those first 4 levels, and an extra 8hp isn't worth the loss of one of my highest level spell slots. Yeah, sometimes gish-ing it up is more fun without armor... I toyed around with the combo of persistent spell + Argent Savant + Abjurant Champion = use up 2x7th-level spell slots, gain +11 Shield AC and +6 Armor AC. (or even just cast Mage Armor once and usually gain benefit for the entire day anyways)
ninjarabbit 02-08-07, 03:05 PM	For only 4 sorcerer levels I wouldn't bother with battlesorcerer or stalward sorcerer, the spellcasting loss isn't woth the limited benefits
Dethro 02-08-07, 03:10 PM	Yeah, that's pretty much why I was persuaded to drop it.
Kurama Youko 02-08-07, 03:36 PM	For the Stalwarted Sorcerer yes maybe, for the Battle Sorcerer.. uh no its kind of worth it depending on how your building the build. 1.) true Battle Sorcerer is giving you a extra martial weapon proficency, and armored spellcasting with light armor. It's giving you actual D8's instead of just extra hp if you sacrifice a spell known, its giving you medium BAB as oppose to low BAB, it's only asking you to give up 1 spell known/spell per day per spell level. The former being replinished with a single feat. Battle Sorcerer 4/Warblade or Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 10. Is still one of the best builds for a gish I've seen on this board. Definitely rewarding more than just the arbitrary 9th lv spell. As it can still reach Caster level 20/BAB 19/2 Good Saves/Initator Level 15/8th lv spells and 8th lv manuver. In fact outside of Combat Casting, and Practice Spellcaster being pretty much necessary. You have 4 or 8 feats to play with depending on if you use flaws, chose a Crusader and or are playing human. That means feats like, Draconic Heritage, Arcane Grace, Bloodline Feats, and others are all at your disposal, don't wanna be lawful good no problem as it doesnt require paladin dipping and you can still apply bonuses to a save. Really after the build its just the matter of right spell selection (especially with all the sorcerer specific spells or dragonblooded related ones.) it's pretty easy to formulate a pimp gish using battle sorcerer.