Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johnnype 05-18-04, 06:53 PM	Hi everyone, I've been reading these boards for a while and must admit that there are quite a few discussions that go way over my head. I blame only myself for not playing the game enough and thus not having the experience to try some of the builds suggested on this board. With that in mind I thought it would be nice for the newbies like myself if some of the pro's around here took a minute and explained to the rest of us why certain battle tactics work and how exactly they function during game play. For example, I've always been confused by the repeated use of reach weapons in some of the builds posted on the board. How exactly does it work? Are certain reach weapons better than others and if so why? Is there a particular build/class/feats that go hand in hand with the "reach" build? Thanks to those who choose to respond, I know there are many inexperienced players (me being the first) who appreciate your comments. If this post works out I'd like to ask similar questions about, among other things, the spring attack feat and how best to make use of it.
Lilt 05-18-04, 07:20 PM	Reach lets you threated a wider area. The reach weapon in question is probably the spiked chain, as it lets you threaten any enemy you can reach. Why is threatening good? It lets you make attacks of opportunity against any enemies that are 10 feet away from you. It naturally goes with the Combat Reflexes feat, which allows you to make more attacks of opportunity per round. Read the Player's Handbook rules on attacks of oppertunity to see exactly what you can make an attack of oppertunity for. It gives you a chance to disrupt enemy spells, and to attack people as they move around even if they're charging straight at you. If you can make your character Large (through a spell, or just being that size) then you can take Large and In Charge from the Sword and Fist book. It basically lets you stop people from charging you if you hit them (with an attack of opportunity, as above) and roll better than them on a strength check. Does that help?
johnnype 05-18-04, 07:44 PM	OK, so if I understand correctly you like the spiked chain (as opposed to other reach weapons) because it allows you to also attack opponents who are next to you and not only those who are 10' away? Thanks for pointing out the combat reflexes feat. On it's own it seems like a nice feat but with a reach weapon I can see how it's even more important. Do reach weapons tie in at all with Trip attacks or Spring attacks? How about Flanking attacks?
Funny Slaughter 05-18-04, 08:46 PM	with a spiked chain you can also make trip-attacks. if you focus on trip (you can see how it works here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110451) you can become really deadly with it. especially as people standing up in your threatened area provoke an AoO that you can use for a trip-attack of course... spring attack is a thing for its own, its not that connected to your own reach as its main feature is ignoring the threatened area of others. spring attack is most useful when you want to flank somebody your partys tank is fighting without getting a fullround in return. to use spring attack you need the highest avaliable damage on a single attack. continue to ask questions like this and we are going to make a compendium :) gs Funny
Elhalyn 05-18-04, 09:03 PM	especially as people standing up in your threatened area provoke an AoO that you can use for a trip-attack of course... I always wondered if that actually worked... What i mean is: doesnt the AoO's happens before the movement (or whatever) that provoked it? If a wizard provokes an AoO, The attack will come before the spell is actually cast, right? Then wouldn't your second trip attack hit the opponent while he was still prone? And only then he would stand... What am I missing? :confused:
catharz 05-18-04, 09:17 PM	I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think the actions happen simultaniously. For example, you get an AoO on a casting Wizard. The attack occurs while he is casting, and can therefore interrupt it. If it happened before or after, then the spell would either take effect normally (after) or take effect normally assuming the caster dosen't die (before). If you use your AoO on somebody standing up from prone, then you can knock them back down while they are standing up.
TaisharMalkier 05-19-04, 04:25 AM	Zug Zug. "What i mean is: doesnt the AoO's happens before the movement (or whatever) that provoked it? If a wizard provokes an AoO, The attack will come before the spell is actually cast, right? Then wouldn't your second trip attack hit the opponent while he was still prone? And only then he would stand... What am I missing? " You aren't missing anything. The AoO occurs BEFORE the action that provokes it - in this specific case, wizards has posted that you take the AoO while prone, then complete the move after the AoO is completed - therefore, you can not be retripped with the AoO. Cheers
catharz 05-19-04, 06:10 AM	Originally posted by TaisharMalkier You aren't missing anything. The AoO occurs BEFORE the action that provokes it - in this specific case, wizards has posted that you take the AoO while prone, then complete the move after the AoO is completed - therefore, you can not be retripped with the AoO. Cheers Can you give me a source for that?
Funny Slaughter 05-19-04, 06:42 AM	in this specific case, wizards has posted that you take the AoO while prone, then complete the move after the AoO is completed - therefore, you can not be retripped with the AoO. i would like to see the source as well... gs Funny
rilem 05-19-04, 10:18 AM	I can't find anything like that in the FAQ, although there are references that AOOs are "usually" resolved before the actions that precipitated them. (Main 3.5 FAQ, page 17, left column). This runs counter to how I recall the "Stand Still" feat to read, but the Stand Still wording may be changed in 3.5. Haven't checked. Perhaps WotC has since built on this ruling to encompass trip attacks vs. prone opponents, but I don't think it's been published yet. Regardless, in response to Elhalyn's wizard question: interrupting spellcasters with AOOs is specifically allowed by the Player's Handbook. From the SRD: Attacks of Opportunity: Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies. If you take damage from an attack of opportunity, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + spell level) or lose the spell. Spells that require only a free action to cast don’t provoke attacks of opportunity.
Nick_Nameless 05-19-04, 11:10 AM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter continue to ask questions like this and we are going to make a compendium :) You know...that's not a bad idea. Many people don't grok how a cleric-archer can be effective, or why spring attacking with a reach weapon can be agood, safe tactic for a light combatant/sneak attacker. What is a battlefield control mage and which spells are crucial to this tactic. Why are well built fighter/mage types superbly useful. What are the best builds to circumvent the Iconic party. (IE why have a druid, a cleric/fighter-archer, a warrior mage, and a TWF rogue/ranger) It could go on forever
Funny Slaughter 05-19-04, 11:31 AM	It could go on forever how about doing it? i mean write a list of tactical questions, try to keep them simple and focussed on one thing. i wasnt joking, i think writing such a compendium would be great. i have two free spaces in my build-FAQ-thread, if we can do it in this space cool, otherwise we should make a new thread called "the 3.5 tactics compendium" i would say that there should be sections for: - archery - reach-weapons - spring attack - TWF - trip - grapple - disarm (etc) think about other sections and i am going to answer them, quite sure that other regulars will join. it would be best to focus on mundane things at first as spellcasting makes things much more complicated. caster-related tactics can be included in another thread maybe, i know that JospehKell is currently working on a strategy paper for fighter/mages for example. gs Funny
johnnype 05-19-04, 12:22 PM	I love the idea of a 3.5 Tactics Compendium. With this in mind I'd like to start next with the Spring Attack combat tactic. We know that it requires 3 feats (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack) and that it is a favorite tactic for rogue types who like to get into combat but can not stand to be front liners because of low hit points. With that in mindId like to know the following: How does it work? How do you make best use of it? Are reach weapons really the best choice and does the tactic work well with other weapons? Are there any specific races/classes/feats that work well incombination with the Spring Attack tactic? I've heard mention of flanking as it's best use. What are the common pitfalls, drawbacks or common mistakes to using this sort of tactic? That's all I can think of for now but I'd love to see this thread or one like it, grow into something useful for those less knowledgeable about the game. With 3.0 (and 3.5 after that) D&D did evolve into something much more akin to a tactical miniatures game (not a bad thing IMO). It would be nice to take advantage of the strategic elements present in the game to maximize (read optimize) enjoyment. Thanks for all the help!
Funny Slaughter 05-19-04, 12:56 PM	How does it work? you go to your target, smash it and go away. you ignore the threatened area of your target, but not the one of other people. you can move one part of your normal movement before using the feat, another part after using the feat. How do you make best use of it? have a single, hard hitting attack. this normally means wielding a twohanded weapon. be fast as you need to get to your enemy and away. Are reach weapons really the best choice and does the tactic work well with other weapons? a reach-weapon makes it more flexible as you dont have to move as close to your enemy. if your enemy doesnt have reach he can not ready an action to hit you. you can use the tactic with all kind of weapons though Are there any specific races/classes/feats that work well incombination with the Spring Attack tactic? anything that increases your damage with a single blow. like: -sneak attack -divine might -favored enemy -insightful strike (swashbuckler) -smite evil etc I've heard mention of flanking as it's best use. if your partys tank is fighting an enemy you can jump in, sneak him because you are flanking (with a +2 to hit due to flank) and jump away. your enemy can not follow you easily because he is fighting the tank, he can not ready an action because you will just stand aside and see him getting crushed then. What are the common pitfalls, drawbacks or common mistakes to using this sort of tactic? you dont do as much damage as with a full attack. at lower levels or against high-AC opponents thats less important. using spring attack in a 1:1 situation is normally not very useful except you can move more then double the speed your enemy can. other people: feel free to add stuff here! i am a bit in a hurry :) gs Funny
johnnype 05-19-04, 01:18 PM	Thanks Funny. I've seen several people mention the barbarian as a good class to dip into if your PC is going for the Spring Attack feat. Is this because it adds 10' (2 squares) to your move per turn thus giving you more space between your opponent and your PC before and after the attack? Does dimension door and/or shadow jump help a spring attack or are they mutually exclusive? In other words can you dimension door next to an opponent and then spring away after the attack? I've always been a bit confused as to wheather a DD and SJ are move actions or standard actions.
Skulan 05-19-04, 01:25 PM	The barbarian is good not only for the speed, but also for doing just as Funny said: a lot of damage in one hit. A raging barbarian with a two-handed weapon will get the most out of that single hit in a spring attack. I've never played around with Dimension Door or Shadow Jump, so someone else can field that question. -Skulan
Nick_Nameless 05-19-04, 01:36 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter how about doing it? i mean write a list of tactical questions, try to keep them simple and focussed on one thing. i wasnt joking, i think writing such a compendium would be great. i have two free spaces in my build-FAQ-thread, if we can do it in this space cool, otherwise we should make a new thread called "the 3.5 tactics compendium" i would say that there should be sections for: - archery - reach-weapons - spring attack - TWF - trip - grapple - disarm (etc) think about other sections and i am going to answer them, quite sure that other regulars will join. it would be best to focus on mundane things at first as spellcasting makes things much more complicated. caster-related tactics can be included in another thread maybe, i know that JospehKell is currently working on a strategy paper for fighter/mages for example. gs Funny What's interesting about this is that most of the builds are focused on one tactic or another, and having a compendium would be a nice resource, not for builds persay, but for character concepting prior to working on a build. I will try and spend some time on just what you suggested. Immediately in my mind it's an organizational nightmare. Do you think it might be better to define archetypes than specifically tactics? It might be useful for categorizing information.
necrosnoop110 05-19-04, 02:02 PM	I like the idea of this thread How about the follow suggestions for organization Intro paragraph (explain in concise and clear terms what this thread is about and what kind of posts you want, I would call for two types Tactical Archetypes and Tactical Advantages) Tactical Archetypes (These posts include both builds and an explanation of why and how these builds work) Examples: Archer Sword and Board Etc. Tactical Advantages (These posts are less about builds and more about an explanation of why certain weapon, feat, skill and techniques combine in order to be effective) Reach Weapons So in your first post edit it to show the following: Title: 3.5 Tactical Compendium Introductory paragraph Contents: Tactical Archetypes List linked posts Tactical Advantages List linked posts
NekoWorldOrder 05-19-04, 02:06 PM	I'm still pretty new to 3.5 myself, and the other RPG's I play don't quite have the same battlefield elements as D & D (which I guess makes sense because D & D evoled from wargaming). Got a few questions myself. -When you Spring Attack, assuming your base move is 30 ft, is there anything that keeps you from moving 15 ft forward, attacking, then 15 ft back the way you came? -When someone is prone after a trip, do you get any sort of bonus for non-attack combat actions, like disarming them? -Is it possible to sunder someone's armor? A ring? Their boots? Ioun stone? The description seems to imply that they have to be wielding it. -Is there any real use for the bull rush action other than pushing your oppenent into a trap or off a cliff? -Slightly unrelated, but the Complete Warrior has the feat Pain Touch which allows your Stunning Attack to nauseate someone...but I can't find a description of what nausea entails. Can someone point me to a page, or give me a description? Oh, and on the reach weapon/spring attack issue, I can see a few reasons why that combo is useful (in addition to what's been stated). Reach weapons are usually two-handed, so you get the improved Power Attack bonus. You can also adjust the direction of where you Spring Attack from so that you can avoid any AoO from any of the other opponents. Great thread BTW, it helps out those of us who haven't played D&D since 2nd Edition as well. :D
rilem 05-19-04, 02:36 PM	Originally posted by johnnype Does dimension door and/or shadow jump help a spring attack or are they mutually exclusive? In other words can you dimension door next to an opponent and then spring away after the attack? Generally speaking, you can't -- though there are exceptions. ShadowJump is a supernatural ability, and using supernatural abilities are standard actions. Casting a spell like Dimension Door is, of course, also a standard action. Even if such abilities could be quickened, the Dimension Door spell specifically states you can't take any further actions until the next round. Now the exceptions: Telflammar Shadowlord (unapproachable east) lets you deal a full attack after a dimension door-like ability. While not technically a spring attack, you could combine this with a Quickened spell or spell-like ability to D-door away afterward. The monkish Sun School feat (complete warrior) lets you make a single strike after a D-door move. A high-level Elocater (Expanded Psi Handbook) can use a dimension door-like ability as part of a spring attack -- but only once per day. By the way, I think the tactics-compendium idea is a great one.
Gorath 05-19-04, 03:22 PM	Spring Attacking is also a good tactic IF you figth opponents that relay on many attacks through full attack actions i.e. two weapon figthers. A spring attacker has the ability to hit hard with one attack and move out of reach. If your opponent follows you, he only gets one attack. So this migth be an advantage too...
SoulLord 05-19-04, 04:22 PM	another of the advantages to the spring attack with a reach weapon is that you would be getting 2 attacks against 1 of your enemy. Unless your oponent also has reach or tumbles to reach you ;) SoulLord
rilem 05-19-04, 04:37 PM	Originally posted by NekoWorldOrder I'm still pretty new to 3.5 myself, and the other RPG's I play don't quite have the same battlefield elements as D & D (which I guess makes sense because D & D evoled from wargaming). Got a few questions myself. -When you Spring Attack, assuming your base move is 30 ft, is there anything that keeps you from moving 15 ft forward, attacking, then 15 ft back the way you came? -When someone is prone after a trip, do you get any sort of bonus for non-attack combat actions, like disarming them? -Is it possible to sunder someone's armor? A ring? Their boots? Ioun stone? The description seems to imply that they have to be wielding it. -Is there any real use for the bull rush action other than pushing your oppenent into a trap or off a cliff? -Slightly unrelated, but the Complete Warrior has the feat Pain Touch which allows your Stunning Attack to nauseate someone...but I can't find a description of what nausea entails. Can someone point me to a page, or give me a description? In order: 1. No, in fact that's the way I usually envision it. 2. Generally speaking, prone opponents get an AC penalty against melee attacks (but a bonus against ranged ones) and can't make attacks on their own. Standing up also provokes an attack of opportunity. Other than that, there aren't any particular advantages against a prone opponent. It's still good, however, especially with Improved Trip, Power Attack and a 2-handed weapon. As soon as you trip them Power Attack at -4 (offset by their AC penalty), and get +8 to damage. 3. You can't sunder armor worn by another character, though some monsters can. Life's unfair. Regarding other objects, here's the SRD: Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character. 4. Man, I wish I knew. I've been playing 3.0 since the get-go and still haven't figured this out. I'd love to see a tactics breakdown on bull rush. 5. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.
Nick_Nameless 05-19-04, 04:47 PM	4. Man, I wish I knew. I've been playing 3.0 since the get-go and still haven't figured this out. I'd love to see a tactics breakdown on bull rush. It is generally useful to knock enemy combatants back into spells that they have escaped from (Solid fog and the iterations thereof, stinking cloud, web, evards tentacles, grease, etc.)
SolitudeSeraph 05-19-04, 06:37 PM	Going back to reach weapons and spellcasters, if you end up taking the Mage Slayer feat (Miniatures Handbook) mages you threaten can't cast defensively...and as a little added incentive to take it you also gain +1 to will
Six Million 05-19-04, 07:55 PM	I would love a 3.5 tactics compedium.
Eagle Prince 05-20-04, 12:16 AM	Tumble is the bane of reach fighters. Hey I get an AoO, (roll tumble check) nope you don't. Freedom of Movement has got to really aggrivate any PC who's built their character around grappling. And pounce, although harder to get, would make a Spring Attacking PC cringe. I would like to see Shot On the Run for archery tactics. With it you could get behind full cover (making it impossible for someone to attack you), then use shot on the run to run out, shoot, then run back behind your cover.
Funny Slaughter 05-20-04, 06:20 AM	Generally speaking, prone opponents get an AC penalty against melee attacks (but a bonus against ranged ones) and can't make attacks on their own. i have to correct rilem here: Prone: The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. means that trip equals a +4 to attack and a +4 to AC now i am still waiting for a rule-quote that says something about AoOs and when they are resolved. i think you can trip somebody again who provokes an AoO because of standing up. necrosnoop110, you are the format-man, right? ;) as i am answering to all the questions anyhow i can as well make the thread :) gs Funny
catharz 05-20-04, 06:41 AM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter now i am still waiting for a rule-quote that says something about AoOs and when they are resolved. i think you can trip somebody again who provokes an AoO because of standing up. gs Funny Well, logic dictates that you can. I know that logic dosen't always work in D&D, but seriously. If they provoke an attack of opportunity, it must be by doing something physically, right? Like trying to get up. So if you use that opportunity to toss them on their ass (which you can), then if they want to get up they have to try to get up again. Which would leave them just as open to your attacks. Which would give you another AoO. Which would knock them on their ass... See where I'm going with this? Its the same thing as interrupting a spell. You can't interrupt something before it starts to happen, or after its already done. Funny, if you get the lowdown from custserve and I'm wrong, please tell me.
Funny Slaughter 05-20-04, 07:59 AM	See here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3473880) and contribute something if you can! gs Funny
boytbpc 05-20-04, 09:54 AM	Had our first big battle since my paladin died and I rolled up a bard. He's 5th level and I had prior knowledge of the battle so I decided to work on my tactics. Its probably a common tactic, but I felt it was worth mentioning. Before battle cast invis, search around for isolated target (preferiably somebody with low will save), pull out wand of Hold person, cast, pull out masterwork pistol (he is a gnomish bard after all), coup de grace, cast invis, repeat. Worked well, single handedly took out a third of the band of the hand (Book of challenges I think, not sure).
Elhalyn 05-20-04, 11:08 PM	Originally posted by rilem Regardless, in response to Elhalyn's wizard question: interrupting spellcasters with AOOs is specifically allowed by the Player's Handbook. From the SRD: Actually, i knew the answer to THAT question... i was just illustrating my point. And about the AoO stuff... See where I'm going with this? Its the same thing as interrupting a spell. You can't interrupt something before it starts to happen, or after its already done In my view of this, casting a spell is something that requires a lot of concentration.. and the big sword (or claw, axe, gigantic irirdium ball, etc.) will hit not as he casts the spell, but as the spell is being cast (as you are making the motions, picking the guano...). Anyway, the spell will actually be completed AFTER the attack is made... The fact is that i always thought about spell being actually a exception to the actual rule, so that it actually needed a specific text on them (as pointed by rilem). Think like this: if both the spell and the attack comes at the same time, how come that if the wizard is killed by the AoO, the spell is not cast at all? Edited due to grammar corrections... (even though there might be more)
catharz 05-21-04, 12:34 AM	Originally posted by Elhalyn In my view of this, casting a spell is something that requires a lot of concentration.. and the big sword (or claw, axe, gigantic irirdium ball, etc.) will hit not as he casts the spell, but as the spell is being cast (as you are making the motions, picking the guano...). Anyway, the spell will actually be completed AFTER the attack is made... "Not as he casts the spell but at the spell is being cast"? Isn't when he casts the spell when the spell is being cast?
Elhalyn 05-21-04, 02:07 AM	Exactly what i meant... have i already mentioned my terrible typing abilities as well as my poor english? :D
Funny Slaughter 05-21-04, 07:21 AM	i got pointed to the FAQ page 17 under "attacks of opportunity" by phoenixnemo gs Funny
catharz 05-21-04, 08:24 AM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter i got pointed to the FAQ page 17 under "attacks of opportunity" by phoenixnemo gs Funny "Remember that attacks of opportunity are usually resolved before the action that provokes them." Hmm. Annoyingly vague, but I can see what TaisharMalkier was getting at. I guess I'll have to email Custserve.