Battle Wizard? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle Wizard? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DM_Dracophile
01-19-06, 09:12 AM I was just curious what y'all might consider a balanced version of the Battle Sorcerer for the Wizard. I'm not looking for something like the Warmage, etc. I'm looking for an actual Wizard, with a few balanced limitations, that meets the flavor of the Battle Sorcerer. I was thinking pretty much the same bonuses/limitations, but perhaps only a d6 to further balance the Wizard's abilities to know more spells. Another possibility is keeping the d8, but requiring the wizard to lose access to a school or two.
Thoughts?
Thanks so much!
Draco

Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer

The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.
Hit Die

d8.
Base Attack Bonus

The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.
Class Skills

Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.
Class Features

The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency

At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.
Spellcasting

A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).
DM_Dracophile
01-19-06, 09:17 AM A poster over on Andy Collins' board suggested:

One possibility: make Battle Wizard a specialization in its own right. For it, you gain:

--d6 hp's
--light armor proficiency
--10% ASF reduction; increases to 15% at 6th level, and 20% at 12th level

Costs:
--can't specialize in a school
--as per school spec, lose access to 1 school

If anything, I'm probably giving a little less than what school specialization gives...but I think it's pretty close.

I would rather see a martial weapon proficiency and the cleric/rogue AB progression.
Thoughts?
Sisyfos
01-19-06, 09:28 AM There is a board that is dedicated to PrCs (I know you are developing a base class, but its still a closer match than character optimization board) and I would suggest that you ask the same question there to get their help.
DM_Dracophile
01-19-06, 10:13 AM Noted.
WombleHunter
01-19-06, 10:17 AM One thought I've had along those lines: you get everything extra that the sorcerer version gets, but one less spell per day than the wizard and no free spells for your spellbook (wizards normally get 2 free spells per level).
Warlock33
01-19-06, 11:41 AM You just can't nerf the spells per day from a wizard, totally ineffectual character. They already don't have many.

What I would suggest...

d6hp.
3/4 attack progression
1 martial weapon
Ability to cast in light armor
Can't specialize
One forbidden school
One less spell known per level
No familiar

A battle sorc gets...
d8hp
3/4
1 martial weapon
ability to cast in light armor
1 less spell per day and one less spell known
Yes familiar

I think that's pretty balanced, thoughts?
PhaedrusXY
01-19-06, 11:52 AM One less spell known per levelAre you talking about the spells they get to add to their spellbook for free each level? Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about. Wizards don't have a set number of "spells known". They can in theory know every spell in the universe.
DDogwood
01-19-06, 12:08 PM I'm not sure what a new "Battle Wizard" class would offer that the Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, Runesmith, and other 'gish'-type PrCs don't already have. Losing one or two caster levels in exchange for a better HD, better weapon proficiencies, and a higher BAB seems pretty fair to me, and is very similar to the Battle Sorcerer.

Mind you, the Battle Sorcerer can be emulated just as well with the same PrCs. The main reason people seem to want Battle Sorcerers is to make these PrCs even more powerful.
WombleHunter
01-19-06, 12:17 PM I'm not sure what a new "Battle Wizard" class would offer that the Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, Runesmith, and other 'gish'-type PrCs don't already have.
Er... the same thing the Battle Sorcerer does? The option to play a gish from 1st level? I don't see that it makes any PrC more powerful, crippled as it is in spells known.
WombleHunter
01-19-06, 12:18 PM You just can't nerf the spells per day from a wizard, totally ineffectual character. They already don't have many.
Do you say that about the Battle Sorcerer? Because thay hits the Sorc in it's Spells Known, which is equally crippling.
DDogwood
01-19-06, 01:08 PM Er... the same thing the Battle Sorcerer does? The option to play a gish from 1st level? I don't see that it makes any PrC more powerful, crippled as it is in spells known.

Spells Known is a limitation, but that doesn't do anything to the scrolls/wands/staves that can be used. That is a significant part of any Sorcerer's power.

A 1st-level Battle Sorcerer isn't really a better "gish" than a 1st-level Sorcerer - he has +4 HP, can wear Light Armor, and can use one Martial weapon (averaging about 1 point more damage). He only knows 1 1st-level spell. A fight between the two of them is going to be pretty even.

At 2nd level, you could compare a 2nd-level Battle Sorcerer to a 1st-level Sorcerer/1st-level Fighter. The Sor/Ftr has started to catch up in HP, has the same BAB, can wear any armor and use any weapon, casts the same number of spells/day and still has more spells known.

At 10th level, a 10th-level Battle Sorcerer doesn't compare very well to a Ftr 1/Sor 6/EK 3 - the Eldritch Knight has comparable hit points, the same BAB, still has more Spells Known, and is comparable in Spells/Day.

So Battle Sorcerer, by itself, doesn't offer anything that the PrCs available don't already provide, including the ability to play a "gish" from level 1. Combined with the "gish" PrCs, however, Battle Sorcerer offers more hit points and a better BAB than you can normally get with a "gish", at the cost of a few spells known/spells per day. As I said, the spells known/spells per day becomes less of a limitation as you go up in level, because you should have access to lots of scrolls, wands, and other magic items.

My point is that Battle Sorcerer is already either redundant (in which case it is pointless) or it is overpowered (in which case it is inappropriate). It should stay in Unearthed Arcana where it belongs, and we certainly don't need a Battle Wizard stinking up the books along with it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DM_Dracophile 01-19-06, 09:12 AM	I was just curious what y'all might consider a balanced version of the Battle Sorcerer for the Wizard. I'm not looking for something like the Warmage, etc. I'm looking for an actual Wizard, with a few balanced limitations, that meets the flavor of the Battle Sorcerer. I was thinking pretty much the same bonuses/limitations, but perhaps only a d6 to further balance the Wizard's abilities to know more spells. Another possibility is keeping the d8, but requiring the wizard to lose access to a school or two. Thoughts? Thanks so much! Draco Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill. Hit Die d8. Base Attack Bonus The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric. Class Skills Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Class Features The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below. Weapon and Armor Proficiency At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor. Spellcasting A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance. A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any). A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).
DM_Dracophile 01-19-06, 09:17 AM	A poster over on Andy Collins' board suggested: One possibility: make Battle Wizard a specialization in its own right. For it, you gain: --d6 hp's --light armor proficiency --10% ASF reduction; increases to 15% at 6th level, and 20% at 12th level Costs: --can't specialize in a school --as per school spec, lose access to 1 school If anything, I'm probably giving a little less than what school specialization gives...but I think it's pretty close. I would rather see a martial weapon proficiency and the cleric/rogue AB progression. Thoughts?
Sisyfos 01-19-06, 09:28 AM	There is a board that is dedicated to PrCs (I know you are developing a base class, but its still a closer match than character optimization board) and I would suggest that you ask the same question there to get their help.
DM_Dracophile 01-19-06, 10:13 AM	Noted.
WombleHunter 01-19-06, 10:17 AM	One thought I've had along those lines: you get everything extra that the sorcerer version gets, but one less spell per day than the wizard and no free spells for your spellbook (wizards normally get 2 free spells per level).
Warlock33 01-19-06, 11:41 AM	You just can't nerf the spells per day from a wizard, totally ineffectual character. They already don't have many. What I would suggest... d6hp. 3/4 attack progression 1 martial weapon Ability to cast in light armor Can't specialize One forbidden school One less spell known per level No familiar A battle sorc gets... d8hp 3/4 1 martial weapon ability to cast in light armor 1 less spell per day and one less spell known Yes familiar I think that's pretty balanced, thoughts?
PhaedrusXY 01-19-06, 11:52 AM	One less spell known per levelAre you talking about the spells they get to add to their spellbook for free each level? Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about. Wizards don't have a set number of "spells known". They can in theory know every spell in the universe.
DDogwood 01-19-06, 12:08 PM	I'm not sure what a new "Battle Wizard" class would offer that the Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, Runesmith, and other 'gish'-type PrCs don't already have. Losing one or two caster levels in exchange for a better HD, better weapon proficiencies, and a higher BAB seems pretty fair to me, and is very similar to the Battle Sorcerer. Mind you, the Battle Sorcerer can be emulated just as well with the same PrCs. The main reason people seem to want Battle Sorcerers is to make these PrCs even more powerful.
WombleHunter 01-19-06, 12:17 PM	I'm not sure what a new "Battle Wizard" class would offer that the Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, Runesmith, and other 'gish'-type PrCs don't already have. Er... the same thing the Battle Sorcerer does? The option to play a gish from 1st level? I don't see that it makes any PrC more powerful, crippled as it is in spells known.
WombleHunter 01-19-06, 12:18 PM	You just can't nerf the spells per day from a wizard, totally ineffectual character. They already don't have many. Do you say that about the Battle Sorcerer? Because thay hits the Sorc in it's Spells Known, which is equally crippling.
DDogwood 01-19-06, 01:08 PM	Er... the same thing the Battle Sorcerer does? The option to play a gish from 1st level? I don't see that it makes any PrC more powerful, crippled as it is in spells known. Spells Known is a limitation, but that doesn't do anything to the scrolls/wands/staves that can be used. That is a significant part of any Sorcerer's power. A 1st-level Battle Sorcerer isn't really a better "gish" than a 1st-level Sorcerer - he has +4 HP, can wear Light Armor, and can use one Martial weapon (averaging about 1 point more damage). He only knows 1 1st-level spell. A fight between the two of them is going to be pretty even. At 2nd level, you could compare a 2nd-level Battle Sorcerer to a 1st-level Sorcerer/1st-level Fighter. The Sor/Ftr has started to catch up in HP, has the same BAB, can wear any armor and use any weapon, casts the same number of spells/day and still has more spells known. At 10th level, a 10th-level Battle Sorcerer doesn't compare very well to a Ftr 1/Sor 6/EK 3 - the Eldritch Knight has comparable hit points, the same BAB, still has more Spells Known, and is comparable in Spells/Day. So Battle Sorcerer, by itself, doesn't offer anything that the PrCs available don't already provide, including the ability to play a "gish" from level 1. Combined with the "gish" PrCs, however, Battle Sorcerer offers more hit points and a better BAB than you can normally get with a "gish", at the cost of a few spells known/spells per day. As I said, the spells known/spells per day becomes less of a limitation as you go up in level, because you should have access to lots of scrolls, wands, and other magic items. My point is that Battle Sorcerer is already either redundant (in which case it is pointless) or it is overpowered (in which case it is inappropriate). It should stay in Unearthed Arcana where it belongs, and we certainly don't need a Battle Wizard stinking up the books along with it.