Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zilvar 12-12-06, 01:50 PM	Assuming that the retraining rules from the PHb2 are available, or the psionic ability Psychic Reformation is on the table, at what level would you consider changing a fighter-type character from a battlefield control role to something else? In many threads about the deficiency of melee combat, the general statement is made that past a point, it's useless to use a tripping fighter, because you can't trip a gargantuan quadruped (or some similar argument). So, I'm considering a second character for a game and after reading through various of the fighter vs everything threads, I'm actually willing to give one a chance, but I'm curious to know at what point I should consider selling off my lewtz and picking up a different skillset.
PhaedrusXY 12-12-06, 02:22 PM	Umm... tripping isn't the only form of battlefield control. Check out the Knight class (PHB2), and the psionic feat Stand Still.
Zilvar 12-12-06, 02:28 PM	Perhaps I should have been more generic in my post. Is it your position, then, that a battlefield control (primary Fighter) is useful through all levels of the game with use of Stand Still, Trip, Disarm, or whatever?
PhaedrusXY 12-12-06, 02:31 PM	Yes. You won't be as flashy as a caster, or a charger who can kill stuff with one hit, but you'll still be useful, and I find such characters fun to play. Also, not everyone will be immune to your tactics. As long as that's not ALL you can do, the character should remain viable. I'd throw in Mage Slayer too, and maybe some other feats from that chain, and get some way to fly and/or teleport/dimension door (preferably with the Sun School feat). Then you can function as a harrier towards enemy casters, too.
Psifon 12-12-06, 02:51 PM	Also note that a tripping character can still do plenty of damage with the power attack feat. Let's say you are using a spiked chain. You can power attack for 4 points, and not suffer much on your trip attempt, since this only requires a touch attack. After tripping, your follow up attack is now at a +4 because they are prone, which offsets the -4 you took from power attack. Now your damage is 2d4+8 before any other modifiers. This is better than a greatsword, with the same chance to hit, AND you have them prone. So power attack lets you do massive damage, it only costs one feat, and you now have access to cleave.
Judging Eagle 12-12-06, 03:20 PM	Also note that a tripping character can still do plenty of damage with the power attack feat. Let's say you are using a spiked chain. You can power attack for 4 points, and not suffer much on your trip attempt, since this only requires a touch attack. After tripping, your follow up attack is now at a +4 because they are prone, which offsets the -4 you took from power attack. Now your damage is 2d4+8 before any other modifiers. This is better than a greatsword, with the same chance to hit, AND you have them prone. So power attack lets you do massive damage, it only costs one feat, and you now have access to cleave. Oh.... I've got to remember that. I've got a barbarian with a war chain that imporves his tripping ability in a WLD game (using K's new classes/combat rules/feats/etc.); since I can usually hit most people's touch AC... and add an other ..... You know what? Nevermind, I'm using a double weapon and 'those' can't properly benefit from power-attacking...crap, I also use armour spikes in my attack routine.... heh. useless notation +4 to +5 more damage (lvl 5, but oh so close to lvl 6). Moving my damage from.... gosh 3d6 + 12 (main hand) and 1d6 + 10 (off hand) to 3d6 + 20 (main) and 1d6 + 18 (off hand). Level 6 would push that all up to... 1x [4d6+22 and 1d6 + 20]@ +14 to hit each and 1x [4d6+22 and 1d6 + 20]@ +9 to hit Damage coming in from: +1d6 weapon, +2d6 Rage Dice (+3d6 at lvl 6), +5 (Blitzing; provokes an AoO; +6 at lvl 6), +3/1 (str; 'dual wielding'), +2 (Raging), +2 (Combat School) +.
Psifon 12-12-06, 05:48 PM	You know what? Nevermind, I'm using a double weapon and 'those' can't properly benefit from power-attacking...crap, I also use armour spikes in my attack routine.... heh. Why not? You are still getting double power attack damage: You are adding +1 to EACH side of your double weapon for each -1 you are taking to hit. Granted you are also working with the standard -2 to hit for each side. On the other hand, there is nothing stopping you from weilding the weapon as a single weapon that you are only taking a single attack with (a great tactic when you only have a standard action to take BTW). In this case, you are weilding one side of the double weapon as a two-handed weapon. This lets you power attack at 2:1 as your single attack for the round. Note also, that if you are using a reach weapon, your main source of attacks for the round come from AoO's. In this case the effectiveness of your Power Attack (as well as your STR bonus) is determined by the type of on the fighting style you used on your initiative. what are the properties of the war chain and what book is it found in? You may not be using it to optimal effect. If you explain it to me, I might be able to give you some pointers on how to maximize it. Also, please explain how the armor spikes come in.
jameswilliamogle 12-12-06, 06:10 PM	You know, call me dumb, but I actually haven't ever seen in the rules where it says that PA + Double Weapon ever actually equals 1.5 damage. Here's what I mean: Double Weapons Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.bolding ala me. If you go to the TWF combat chart, it only has to hit penalties associated, not damage penalties. It never actually says that you take penalties to damage as if it were light and one-handed... ie, I think the way its written is either screwed up, or you actually get full two-weapon power attack damage. I think the same thing may apply for strength, too. The designers may have realized that the double weapons really suck, and built this in just to give players a reason to use them. What do y'all think?
Psifon 12-13-06, 09:24 PM	I think that a double weapon counts as a one handed and a light weapon for the purposes of attack bonuses (i.e. -2/-2 with the right feats), but that it counts as two medium weapons for the purposes of power attack. My logic is that you are wielding it two handed, so you should get x2 damage for each -1 to hit, but that this should be divided between the ends of the weapon, rather than allocated to each end. Now I have a very good, rules-based reason why it works this way: Wait... No I don't, it's just my opionon. I think that this is balanced and it makes sense to me. Giving a double weapon weilder only x1 damage to one end of the weapon doesn't take into account the fact that all double weapons are weilded two-handed. Giving a x2 damage bonus to each end is just too powerful. Giving a x1 to each end seems fine. You could even rule that the weapon gets a x2 damage bonus from PA, but the weilder gets to decide how to divide this bonus up between the ends, provided he declares it before any attack roles, and that it remains as declared until his next turn. This is all opinion though. The rules are silent on this issue.
jameswilliamogle 12-14-06, 11:02 AM	x2 damage doesn't seem outlandish to me: the character would have to spend two feats and have the stats to meet the feats and have a high Str to make it worthwhile (TWF, EWP:X, a minimum 15 Dex, and a high Str, PA, and to make it really powerful needs some source of Pounce, then Leap Attack, Shocktrooper+Imp Bull Rush). It would give core Fighters a reason to stay Fighter past 6th, I think, which isn't bad at all.