Battlesmith Abuse [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battlesmith Abuse [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lostone
11-14-04, 12:51 PM I'm looking to make the ultimate Dwarven hammer fighter, a real melee monster while taking full Battlesmith and all other levels as divine spellcasting for maximum weapon forging potential. I'm looking for help.

I figured I'd start with Cleric, get into Battlesmith or another divine spellcasting prestige class ASAP. One class I have looked at is Runecaster, another is Dweomerkeeper (taking that one feat that gives 0 level arcane spells to get the arcane requirement).

One thing I am curious about, is with 5 levels of Battlesmith giving 15th level caster ability to create items, would it be possible with the other levels of spellcaster to make Epic level items before reaching 21st level?
JosephKell
11-14-04, 02:43 PM To totally Twink out Battlesmith, you should go Artificer 14/Fighter 1/Battlesmith 5, you end up with like a Craft Magical Arms and Armor CL of 35 (I think) and 20 for all others (you use Practiced Spellcaster to raise your Item Creation CL, not your Infusion CL). Since Artificers have a Item Creation level 2 higher than their Artificer level, that +2 and Practiced Spellcaster gives you +6 and 6 happens to be the number of non-Artificer levels.

You use Fighter 1 to get Warhammer Prof and All those Armor Profs, otherwise you are just not getting the most out of Battlesmith.

I made a twinked Battlesmith for the November Contest, but I changed the idea (that was idea #2, right now my partner and I are on idea #4... no wait #5).

Here is what I had before I left this idea. Lucky for me, I hadn't done the Character Stat Block yet. The main reason I didn't want to do it is because making an Artificer above level 1 is a pain in the ***. You have to deal with all the craft reserve BS. I had trouble spending 790,000 gp at full market value! And I still ended up with 3,000 gp worth of coins and gems (gems weigh less :p).

Character Name: Weradin Son of Anagal of Clan Mroranon

Neutral Good Male Dwarf Artificer 14/Fighter 1/Battlesmith 5

Str 14 (+2)
Dex 10 (+0)
Con 16 (+3)
Int 16 (+3)
Wis 12 (+1)
Cha 16 (+3)

Character Sheet:

Progression:
1 Art 1: Artificer Knowledge, Artisan Bonus, Disable Trap, Item Creation (IC 3), Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)
2 Art 1/Ftr 1: Weapon Focus (Warhammer), (IC 3)
3 Art 2/Ftr 1: Brew Potion, Endurance, (IC 4)
4 Art 3/Ftr 1: Craft Wonderous Item, +1 Cha (13), (IC 5)
5 Art 4/Ftr 1: Craft Homunculus, Bonus Feat (Legendary Artisan, -25%), (IC 6)
6 Art 5/Ftr 1: Craft Magical Arms and Armor, Retain Essence, Craft Rune Circle, (IC 7)
7 Art 6/Ftr 1: Metamagic Spell Trigger, (IC 8)
8 Art 6/Ftr 1/Bts 1: One with the hammer (Wis to damage), Secrets of the Forge, +1 Cha (14), (IC 8, CMA&A +3)
9 Art 6/Ftr 1/Bts 2: Flesh of my Flesh +1, Practiced Spellcaster (Artificer), (IC 11, CMA&A +6)
10 Art 6/Ftr 1/Bts 3: Forged in Fire, (IC 12, CMA&A +9)
11 Art 6/Ftr 1/Bts 4: Flesh of my Flesh +2, (IC 12, CMA&A +12)
12 Art 6/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Tempered in Blood, Dwarven Armor Proficiency, +1 Cha (15), (IC 12, CMA&A +15)
13 Art 7/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Craft Wand, (IC 13, CMA&A +15)
14 Art 8/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Bonus Feat (Attune Magic Item), (IC 14, CMA&A +15)
15 Art 9/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Craft Rod, Magical Aptitude, (IC 15, CMA&A +15)
16 Art 10/Ftr 1/Bts 5: +1 Cha (16), (IC 16, CMA&A +15)
17 Art 11/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Metamagic Spell Completion, (IC 17, CMA&A +15)
18 Art 12/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Craft Staff, Bonus Feat (Wand Mastery), Heroic Spirit (+3 action points/lvl), (IC 18, CMA&A +15)
19 Art 13/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Skill Mastery, (IC 19, CMA&A +15)
20 Art 14/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Forge Ring, +1 Int (16), (IC 20, CMA&A +15)
Balthanon
11-14-04, 02:47 PM One thing I am curious about, is with 5 levels of Battlesmith giving 15th level caster ability to create items, would it be possible with the other levels of spellcaster to make Epic level items before reaching 21st level?

Unfortunately you need a character level of 21 to take the Epic Crafting feats, so it isn't possible to create Epic level items earlier.
JosephKell
11-14-04, 02:50 PM Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you need a CL 5 times higher than the + you are putting on an item? If so, then a Cleric 15/Battlesmith 5 has a CMA&A CL of 30, which is +6, which is not epic yet. The Art15/Ftr1/Bts 5 has a CMA&A of 35 which is +7.
Balthanon
11-14-04, 03:21 PM Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you need a CL 5 times higher than the + you are putting on an item? If so, then a Cleric 15/Battlesmith 5 has a CMA&A CL of 30, which is +6, which is not epic yet. The Art15/Ftr1/Bts 5 has a CMA&A of 35 which is +7.

It's three times the enhancement bonus you want to add to the weapon actually, so +1 (3rd), +2 (6th), etc... up to +5 (15th) pre-epic. So you do have the caster level to create a +6/+7 etc..., but, any weapon (or armor actually) with a +6 or higher enhancement (or +11 or higher total) is defined as an epic magic item. To create those, you need the feat Craft Epic Arms and Armor, which is [Epic] and requires a character level of 21 or higher to take.

Technically, after 5 levels of Battlesmith, you should be able to craft any pre-epic armor or weapon for which you can get a spellcaster to help you with the prerequisites I believe.
Khazra Reborn
11-14-04, 04:21 PM I'm looking to make the ultimate Dwarven hammer fighter, a real melee monster while taking full Battlesmith and all other levels as divine spellcasting for maximum weapon forging potential. I'm looking for help.
Your already losing 5 caster levels so how about 4 more at the price of being a better fighter?

Cleric 11/battlesmith5/hammer of moradin3/exotic weaponmaster1
Using a heavy warhammer wileded in 2 hands you recieve 2.5 Damage to strength!!!! Your crafting level is still 26, which cam make arms & armour of up to +9 enhancement, very much epic.
Blue23
11-16-04, 05:24 PM You know, I was looking at Battlesmith for just a single level dip for the wisdom to damage with your warhammer. Combine with the 4th level cleric dwarven racial substitution level to get more warhammer goodness, and go up the extend/persistant/divine metamagic route with one of the dwarven subtypes that gives a dex penalty instead of charisma, and with a few spells you can be walking about large sized and really opening up a can of hurt with your warhammer.

The key to this was moderation to keep the cleric caster level high. On the other hand, with spells up up don't care as much about BAB, so contemplative (free domain), divie oracle (free domain at 1st and evasion in armor at 2nd), and other PrCs like that are nice.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)
lostone
11-19-04, 08:53 AM I found out more about the campaign I'm looking to play the battlesmith character in. They need to be unfaithful to their god, meaning I can't use cleric, paladin, etc. Apparently the characters will die the first night, and being faithless will go to the Fugue plain and get stuck in a battle between Kelemvor and Cyric in FR. IIRC Hammer of Moradin would also be right out. So further suggestions on how to build an effective battlesmith? I had considered playing an Artificer (which the DM will allow) and going into Battlesmith, can anyone expand on that or suggest good builds that don't use divine magic?

Another thought I just had, and have no recollection if there is a feat that would make this work: A Monk Battlesmith :P. Since they both rely on wisdom it would be better (not MAD) than the Artificer Battlesmith which would basically want all attributes high. The Monk's key attributes would all serve the battlesmith well. But monk's can't use warhammers effectively, is there a feat that would allow this similar to the feats in eberron to allow double scimitars and the like?
LordKiwi
11-19-04, 09:12 AM Another thought I just had, and have no recollection if there is a feat that would make this work: A Monk Battlesmith :P. Since they both rely on wisdom it would be better (not MAD) than the Artificer Battlesmith which would basically want all attributes high. The Monk's key attributes would all serve the battlesmith well. But monk's can't use warhammers effectively, is there a feat that would allow this similar to the feats in eberron to allow double scimitars and the like?

Here's one I made earlier...

Race: Dwarf
Lvl BAB F/R/W Class Abilities/Feats
1 +0 2/2/2 Monk 1 Power Attack
2 +1 3/3/3 Mnk 2 Evasion
3 +2 3/3/3 Mnk 3 f
4 +3 4/4/4 Mnk 4
5 +4 6/4/4 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 1 EWP: Heavy War-hammer
6 +5 7/4/4 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 WF: War-hammer, True Believer
7 +6 9/4/6 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / Pious Templar 1 Mettle
8 +7 11/4/6 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 1 / Battle Smith 1 One with the Hammer, Secrets of the Forge
9 +8 13/4/6 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 1 / BS 1 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 Endurance, Uncanny Strike
10 +9 14/4/7 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 2 / BS 1 / EWM 1 Smite 1/Day
11 +10 14/5/7 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 WS: War-hammer, DR 1/-
12 +11 16/5/9 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Deepwarden 1 Iron Will, Track, Trap sense +1
13 +12 17/5/10 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 Stone warden
14 +13 19/5/12 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / Hammer of Moradin 1 Aura of courage, hammer throw
15 +14 20/5/13 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / HoM 2 Zen Archery, Goblinkiller, hammer return
16 +15 20/6/13 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / HoM 3 DR 2/-, Powerful grip
17 +16 21/6/14 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / HoM 4 Far shot, Quake
18 +17 21/6/14 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / HoM 5 f, Drowbasher, Power strike 2/day
19 +18 22/7/15 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / HoM 6 DR 4/-
20 +19 22/7/15 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / HoM 7 Chaos crusher, Stalwart

Unfortunatly you'll have to take something instead of Hammer of Moradin and probably Pious Templar, a shame given all the hammer wielding goodness and missing out on mettle.

Using a Warhammer just meens loosing Flurry of Blows. If you can, just take a monk varient (from Dragon or UA) which would loose you Flurry anyway, I think the raging monk suffers from that, then take the Whirling Rage from UA and you have your extra attack back again. Even if you can't do that then it's not the end of the world.

Lord Kiwi,
lostone
11-19-04, 10:12 AM Nice build, but yes I'd have to lose those two classes. However I could fill in dwarven defender, the con bonus from defensive stance combines up nicely with the stone warden ability of the deepwarden, and I can take the full battlesmith class instead of hammer of moradin, the remaining levels can be more dwarven defender.

So something like:
Monk 1/Fighter 4/Battlesmith 5/EWM 1/Deep Warden 2/Dwarven Defender 1/Battlerager 1 (whirling frenzy rage)/Dwarven Defender 5

Granted, I don't know if feats would allow this progression in this order (I'm at work, don't have my books with me, this is all off the top of my head). Is there a better class to gain rage from than Battlerager? And can Defensive Stance stack with Rage, or are they incompatible?
LordKiwi
11-19-04, 10:28 AM So something like:
Monk 1/Fighter 4/Battlesmith 5/EWM 1/Deep Warden 2/Dwarven Defender 1/Battlerager 1 (whirling frenzy rage)/Dwarven Defender 5

Granted, I don't know if feats would allow this progression in this order (I'm at work, don't have my books with me, this is all off the top of my head). Is there a better class to gain rage from than Battlerager? And can Defensive Stance stack with Rage, or are they incompatible?

Does Battlerager allow you to Lawful? Otherwise you have a planned alighment shift there, which is icky.

I think you awght to charge while raging if the enemy isn't near you so rage and defensive stance wouldn't fit together very well.

Finaly, I'd prefer Monk 2 / Fighter 2 rather than Monk 1 / Fighter 4, you gain just as many feats and saves but you also get Evasion, and you do so in 1 less level. Use the spare levels to grab something like Ranger for more useful skills and feats, or Paladin, since you'll have the correct alignment.

Lord Kiwi,
lostone
11-19-04, 11:03 AM Does Battlerager allow you to Lawful? Otherwise you have a planned alighment shift there, which is icky.

I think you awght to charge while raging if the enemy isn't near you so rage and defensive stance wouldn't fit together very well.

Finaly, I'd prefer Monk 2 / Fighter 2 rather than Monk 1 / Fighter 4, you gain just as many feats and saves but you also get Evasion, and you do so in 1 less level. Use the spare levels to grab something like Ranger for more useful skills and feats, or Paladin, since you'll have the correct alignment.

Lord Kiwi,Paladin won't work in this game, unfaithful. Monk I can get away with because it could also be argued to just be more of a philosphy. And I don't see alignment shift being a problem in this game, where my character's beliefs will be torn out from under him when he is rudely awakened to the fact that his faith was not true, and he finds himself in the fugue plain. Lawful will be pretty hard to maintain there I'm sure. Besides I doubt the other players will be playing lawful so an alignment change will put the character on an even standing with the rest of the group and be less hindering for adventure choices. But I'll keep playing with the idea of monk 2 fighter 2 and see what I can come up with.
LordKiwi
11-19-04, 11:41 AM Paladin won't work in this game, unfaithful. Monk I can get away with because it could also be argued to just be more of a philosphy. And I don't see alignment shift being a problem in this game, where my character's beliefs will be torn out from under him when he is rudely awakened to the fact that his faith was not true, and he finds himself in the fugue plain. Lawful will be pretty hard to maintain there I'm sure. Besides I doubt the other players will be playing lawful so an alignment change will put the character on an even standing with the rest of the group and be less hindering for adventure choices. But I'll keep playing with the idea of monk 2 fighter 2 and see what I can come up with.
If you don't like Paladin there is always Ranger or even Hexblade (anything to avoid taking Fighter 3), basicaly any class that grants +1 BAB.

I'd imagine Swashbuckler and Samurai are both so if you like Fighter 2/Monk 2 then your left with 1 level in Barbarian, Ranger or Hexblade. Seeing as how useful the Track feat can be, and you'd also gain Favoured Enemy, I'd go for that. Take some kind of outsider for your FA, seems useful considering the campaigne.

Lord Kiwi,
JosephKell
11-19-04, 12:29 PM Eberron has some feats that allow other weapons be treated as Monk weapons for flurrying, perhaps your DM would allow you to make a new one (with the same number of prerequisites) to use the Warhammer as one.

Valenar Elfs can take the two sword ones (longsword and double-sword) for Scimitar and Double Scimitar respectively (they are individual feats). It only seems fitting that Dwarves can take it for Warhammer

Requirements would be Weapon Focus (Warhammer) and ability to Flurry.
lostone
11-22-04, 10:46 AM Here's the build I'm currently looking at, it includes a 6th level (homebrew) for the Battlesmith that will be useful under the campaign circumstances.

Fighter 2, Axethrowing (1st level only feat), EWP Heavy Warhammer (2d6
damage, 1 handed)
Dwarven Paragon 2 (craft bonus)
Deep Warden 2
Battlesmith 6
Exotic Weapon Master 1
Dwarven Paragon 1
Exotic Weapon Master 1
Dwarven Defender 5+ (finish in epic)

I opted away from Monk, so it will be less MAD (only needing strength and constitution, with intelligence and wisdom being less important yet useful, and dexterity being unimportant), and can wear enchanted armor and shield. But I'm still looking for suggestions &/or tweaks. The last two levels of Dwarven Paragon can easily be switched for something else if I like a recommendation.
El_Machinae
11-23-04, 12:29 PM Unless I am mis-remembering, one cannot qualify for Battlesmith until level 7.

Would your DM allow the Athar PrC from the Planar Handbook? It's REALLY unfaithful!
lostone
11-23-04, 07:37 PM Unless I am mis-remembering, one cannot qualify for Battlesmith until level 7.

Would your DM allow the Athar PrC from the Planar Handbook? It's REALLY unfaithful!Look at my last post again (immediately before yours), Battlesmith is being taken at 7th level.

I had to borrow a book to read the Defiant PrC for the Athar, it's pretty powerful sounding and directly aimed at a game such as this where we'll deal with divine themes. Good suggestion.

One more wrinkle in my character optimization. The DM asked me for any thoughts on how to make the game more interesting and memorable, and I suggested he look in Unearthed Arcana. He is now considering running a Gestalt game, so in case he does decide to go with that I'd like suggestions for a gestalt build as well. Depending on how he is willing to do it I could use the build I have now for one side of the build, and something like a lawful barbarian variant (with whirling rage) and take the Defiant as suggested above.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lostone 11-14-04, 12:51 PM	I'm looking to make the ultimate Dwarven hammer fighter, a real melee monster while taking full Battlesmith and all other levels as divine spellcasting for maximum weapon forging potential. I'm looking for help. I figured I'd start with Cleric, get into Battlesmith or another divine spellcasting prestige class ASAP. One class I have looked at is Runecaster, another is Dweomerkeeper (taking that one feat that gives 0 level arcane spells to get the arcane requirement). One thing I am curious about, is with 5 levels of Battlesmith giving 15th level caster ability to create items, would it be possible with the other levels of spellcaster to make Epic level items before reaching 21st level?
JosephKell 11-14-04, 02:43 PM	To totally Twink out Battlesmith, you should go Artificer 14/Fighter 1/Battlesmith 5, you end up with like a Craft Magical Arms and Armor CL of 35 (I think) and 20 for all others (you use Practiced Spellcaster to raise your Item Creation CL, not your Infusion CL). Since Artificers have a Item Creation level 2 higher than their Artificer level, that +2 and Practiced Spellcaster gives you +6 and 6 happens to be the number of non-Artificer levels. You use Fighter 1 to get Warhammer Prof and All those Armor Profs, otherwise you are just not getting the most out of Battlesmith. I made a twinked Battlesmith for the November Contest, but I changed the idea (that was idea #2, right now my partner and I are on idea #4... no wait #5). Here is what I had before I left this idea. Lucky for me, I hadn't done the Character Stat Block yet. The main reason I didn't want to do it is because making an Artificer above level 1 is a pain in the ***. You have to deal with all the craft reserve BS. I had trouble spending 790,000 gp at full market value! And I still ended up with 3,000 gp worth of coins and gems (gems weigh less :p). Character Name: Weradin Son of Anagal of Clan Mroranon Neutral Good Male Dwarf Artificer 14/Fighter 1/Battlesmith 5 Str 14 (+2) Dex 10 (+0) Con 16 (+3) Int 16 (+3) Wis 12 (+1) Cha 16 (+3) Character Sheet: Progression: 1 Art 1: Artificer Knowledge, Artisan Bonus, Disable Trap, Item Creation (IC 3), Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) 2 Art 1/Ftr 1: Weapon Focus (Warhammer), (IC 3) 3 Art 2/Ftr 1: Brew Potion, Endurance, (IC 4) 4 Art 3/Ftr 1: Craft Wonderous Item, +1 Cha (13), (IC 5) 5 Art 4/Ftr 1: Craft Homunculus, Bonus Feat (Legendary Artisan, -25%), (IC 6) 6 Art 5/Ftr 1: Craft Magical Arms and Armor, Retain Essence, Craft Rune Circle, (IC 7) 7 Art 6/Ftr 1: Metamagic Spell Trigger, (IC 8) 8 Art 6/Ftr 1/Bts 1: One with the hammer (Wis to damage), Secrets of the Forge, +1 Cha (14), (IC 8, CMA&A +3) 9 Art 6/Ftr 1/Bts 2: Flesh of my Flesh +1, Practiced Spellcaster (Artificer), (IC 11, CMA&A +6) 10 Art 6/Ftr 1/Bts 3: Forged in Fire, (IC 12, CMA&A +9) 11 Art 6/Ftr 1/Bts 4: Flesh of my Flesh +2, (IC 12, CMA&A +12) 12 Art 6/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Tempered in Blood, Dwarven Armor Proficiency, +1 Cha (15), (IC 12, CMA&A +15) 13 Art 7/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Craft Wand, (IC 13, CMA&A +15) 14 Art 8/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Bonus Feat (Attune Magic Item), (IC 14, CMA&A +15) 15 Art 9/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Craft Rod, Magical Aptitude, (IC 15, CMA&A +15) 16 Art 10/Ftr 1/Bts 5: +1 Cha (16), (IC 16, CMA&A +15) 17 Art 11/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Metamagic Spell Completion, (IC 17, CMA&A +15) 18 Art 12/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Craft Staff, Bonus Feat (Wand Mastery), Heroic Spirit (+3 action points/lvl), (IC 18, CMA&A +15) 19 Art 13/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Skill Mastery, (IC 19, CMA&A +15) 20 Art 14/Ftr 1/Bts 5: Forge Ring, +1 Int (16), (IC 20, CMA&A +15)
Balthanon 11-14-04, 02:47 PM	One thing I am curious about, is with 5 levels of Battlesmith giving 15th level caster ability to create items, would it be possible with the other levels of spellcaster to make Epic level items before reaching 21st level? Unfortunately you need a character level of 21 to take the Epic Crafting feats, so it isn't possible to create Epic level items earlier.
JosephKell 11-14-04, 02:50 PM	Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you need a CL 5 times higher than the + you are putting on an item? If so, then a Cleric 15/Battlesmith 5 has a CMA&A CL of 30, which is +6, which is not epic yet. The Art15/Ftr1/Bts 5 has a CMA&A of 35 which is +7.
Balthanon 11-14-04, 03:21 PM	Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you need a CL 5 times higher than the + you are putting on an item? If so, then a Cleric 15/Battlesmith 5 has a CMA&A CL of 30, which is +6, which is not epic yet. The Art15/Ftr1/Bts 5 has a CMA&A of 35 which is +7. It's three times the enhancement bonus you want to add to the weapon actually, so +1 (3rd), +2 (6th), etc... up to +5 (15th) pre-epic. So you do have the caster level to create a +6/+7 etc..., but, any weapon (or armor actually) with a +6 or higher enhancement (or +11 or higher total) is defined as an epic magic item. To create those, you need the feat Craft Epic Arms and Armor, which is [Epic] and requires a character level of 21 or higher to take. Technically, after 5 levels of Battlesmith, you should be able to craft any pre-epic armor or weapon for which you can get a spellcaster to help you with the prerequisites I believe.
Khazra Reborn 11-14-04, 04:21 PM	I'm looking to make the ultimate Dwarven hammer fighter, a real melee monster while taking full Battlesmith and all other levels as divine spellcasting for maximum weapon forging potential. I'm looking for help. Your already losing 5 caster levels so how about 4 more at the price of being a better fighter? Cleric 11/battlesmith5/hammer of moradin3/exotic weaponmaster1 Using a heavy warhammer wileded in 2 hands you recieve 2.5 Damage to strength!!!! Your crafting level is still 26, which cam make arms & armour of up to +9 enhancement, very much epic.
Blue23 11-16-04, 05:24 PM	You know, I was looking at Battlesmith for just a single level dip for the wisdom to damage with your warhammer. Combine with the 4th level cleric dwarven racial substitution level to get more warhammer goodness, and go up the extend/persistant/divine metamagic route with one of the dwarven subtypes that gives a dex penalty instead of charisma, and with a few spells you can be walking about large sized and really opening up a can of hurt with your warhammer. The key to this was moderation to keep the cleric caster level high. On the other hand, with spells up up don't care as much about BAB, so contemplative (free domain), divie oracle (free domain at 1st and evasion in armor at 2nd), and other PrCs like that are nice. Cheers, =Blue(23)
lostone 11-19-04, 08:53 AM	I found out more about the campaign I'm looking to play the battlesmith character in. They need to be unfaithful to their god, meaning I can't use cleric, paladin, etc. Apparently the characters will die the first night, and being faithless will go to the Fugue plain and get stuck in a battle between Kelemvor and Cyric in FR. IIRC Hammer of Moradin would also be right out. So further suggestions on how to build an effective battlesmith? I had considered playing an Artificer (which the DM will allow) and going into Battlesmith, can anyone expand on that or suggest good builds that don't use divine magic? Another thought I just had, and have no recollection if there is a feat that would make this work: A Monk Battlesmith :P. Since they both rely on wisdom it would be better (not MAD) than the Artificer Battlesmith which would basically want all attributes high. The Monk's key attributes would all serve the battlesmith well. But monk's can't use warhammers effectively, is there a feat that would allow this similar to the feats in eberron to allow double scimitars and the like?
LordKiwi 11-19-04, 09:12 AM	Another thought I just had, and have no recollection if there is a feat that would make this work: A Monk Battlesmith :P. Since they both rely on wisdom it would be better (not MAD) than the Artificer Battlesmith which would basically want all attributes high. The Monk's key attributes would all serve the battlesmith well. But monk's can't use warhammers effectively, is there a feat that would allow this similar to the feats in eberron to allow double scimitars and the like? Here's one I made earlier... Race: Dwarf Lvl BAB F/R/W Class Abilities/Feats 1 +0 2/2/2 Monk 1 Power Attack 2 +1 3/3/3 Mnk 2 Evasion 3 +2 3/3/3 Mnk 3 f 4 +3 4/4/4 Mnk 4 5 +4 6/4/4 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 1 EWP: Heavy War-hammer 6 +5 7/4/4 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 WF: War-hammer, True Believer 7 +6 9/4/6 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / Pious Templar 1 Mettle 8 +7 11/4/6 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 1 / Battle Smith 1 One with the Hammer, Secrets of the Forge 9 +8 13/4/6 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 1 / BS 1 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 Endurance, Uncanny Strike 10 +9 14/4/7 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 2 / BS 1 / EWM 1 Smite 1/Day 11 +10 14/5/7 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 WS: War-hammer, DR 1/- 12 +11 16/5/9 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Deepwarden 1 Iron Will, Track, Trap sense +1 13 +12 17/5/10 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 Stone warden 14 +13 19/5/12 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / Hammer of Moradin 1 Aura of courage, hammer throw 15 +14 20/5/13 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / HoM 2 Zen Archery, Goblinkiller, hammer return 16 +15 20/6/13 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / HoM 3 DR 2/-, Powerful grip 17 +16 21/6/14 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / HoM 4 Far shot, Quake 18 +17 21/6/14 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / HoM 5 f, Drowbasher, Power strike 2/day 19 +18 22/7/15 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / HoM 6 DR 4/- 20 +19 22/7/15 Mnk 4 / Fghtr 2 / PT 3 / BS 1 / EWM 1 / Dw 2 / HoM 7 Chaos crusher, Stalwart Unfortunatly you'll have to take something instead of Hammer of Moradin and probably Pious Templar, a shame given all the hammer wielding goodness and missing out on mettle. Using a Warhammer just meens loosing Flurry of Blows. If you can, just take a monk varient (from Dragon or UA) which would loose you Flurry anyway, I think the raging monk suffers from that, then take the Whirling Rage from UA and you have your extra attack back again. Even if you can't do that then it's not the end of the world. Lord Kiwi,
lostone 11-19-04, 10:12 AM	Nice build, but yes I'd have to lose those two classes. However I could fill in dwarven defender, the con bonus from defensive stance combines up nicely with the stone warden ability of the deepwarden, and I can take the full battlesmith class instead of hammer of moradin, the remaining levels can be more dwarven defender. So something like: Monk 1/Fighter 4/Battlesmith 5/EWM 1/Deep Warden 2/Dwarven Defender 1/Battlerager 1 (whirling frenzy rage)/Dwarven Defender 5 Granted, I don't know if feats would allow this progression in this order (I'm at work, don't have my books with me, this is all off the top of my head). Is there a better class to gain rage from than Battlerager? And can Defensive Stance stack with Rage, or are they incompatible?
LordKiwi 11-19-04, 10:28 AM	So something like: Monk 1/Fighter 4/Battlesmith 5/EWM 1/Deep Warden 2/Dwarven Defender 1/Battlerager 1 (whirling frenzy rage)/Dwarven Defender 5 Granted, I don't know if feats would allow this progression in this order (I'm at work, don't have my books with me, this is all off the top of my head). Is there a better class to gain rage from than Battlerager? And can Defensive Stance stack with Rage, or are they incompatible? Does Battlerager allow you to Lawful? Otherwise you have a planned alighment shift there, which is icky. I think you awght to charge while raging if the enemy isn't near you so rage and defensive stance wouldn't fit together very well. Finaly, I'd prefer Monk 2 / Fighter 2 rather than Monk 1 / Fighter 4, you gain just as many feats and saves but you also get Evasion, and you do so in 1 less level. Use the spare levels to grab something like Ranger for more useful skills and feats, or Paladin, since you'll have the correct alignment. Lord Kiwi,
lostone 11-19-04, 11:03 AM	Does Battlerager allow you to Lawful? Otherwise you have a planned alighment shift there, which is icky. I think you awght to charge while raging if the enemy isn't near you so rage and defensive stance wouldn't fit together very well. Finaly, I'd prefer Monk 2 / Fighter 2 rather than Monk 1 / Fighter 4, you gain just as many feats and saves but you also get Evasion, and you do so in 1 less level. Use the spare levels to grab something like Ranger for more useful skills and feats, or Paladin, since you'll have the correct alignment. Lord Kiwi,Paladin won't work in this game, unfaithful. Monk I can get away with because it could also be argued to just be more of a philosphy. And I don't see alignment shift being a problem in this game, where my character's beliefs will be torn out from under him when he is rudely awakened to the fact that his faith was not true, and he finds himself in the fugue plain. Lawful will be pretty hard to maintain there I'm sure. Besides I doubt the other players will be playing lawful so an alignment change will put the character on an even standing with the rest of the group and be less hindering for adventure choices. But I'll keep playing with the idea of monk 2 fighter 2 and see what I can come up with.
LordKiwi 11-19-04, 11:41 AM	Paladin won't work in this game, unfaithful. Monk I can get away with because it could also be argued to just be more of a philosphy. And I don't see alignment shift being a problem in this game, where my character's beliefs will be torn out from under him when he is rudely awakened to the fact that his faith was not true, and he finds himself in the fugue plain. Lawful will be pretty hard to maintain there I'm sure. Besides I doubt the other players will be playing lawful so an alignment change will put the character on an even standing with the rest of the group and be less hindering for adventure choices. But I'll keep playing with the idea of monk 2 fighter 2 and see what I can come up with. If you don't like Paladin there is always Ranger or even Hexblade (anything to avoid taking Fighter 3), basicaly any class that grants +1 BAB. I'd imagine Swashbuckler and Samurai are both so if you like Fighter 2/Monk 2 then your left with 1 level in Barbarian, Ranger or Hexblade. Seeing as how useful the Track feat can be, and you'd also gain Favoured Enemy, I'd go for that. Take some kind of outsider for your FA, seems useful considering the campaigne. Lord Kiwi,
JosephKell 11-19-04, 12:29 PM	Eberron has some feats that allow other weapons be treated as Monk weapons for flurrying, perhaps your DM would allow you to make a new one (with the same number of prerequisites) to use the Warhammer as one. Valenar Elfs can take the two sword ones (longsword and double-sword) for Scimitar and Double Scimitar respectively (they are individual feats). It only seems fitting that Dwarves can take it for Warhammer Requirements would be Weapon Focus (Warhammer) and ability to Flurry.
lostone 11-22-04, 10:46 AM	Here's the build I'm currently looking at, it includes a 6th level (homebrew) for the Battlesmith that will be useful under the campaign circumstances. Fighter 2, Axethrowing (1st level only feat), EWP Heavy Warhammer (2d6 damage, 1 handed) Dwarven Paragon 2 (craft bonus) Deep Warden 2 Battlesmith 6 Exotic Weapon Master 1 Dwarven Paragon 1 Exotic Weapon Master 1 Dwarven Defender 5+ (finish in epic) I opted away from Monk, so it will be less MAD (only needing strength and constitution, with intelligence and wisdom being less important yet useful, and dexterity being unimportant), and can wear enchanted armor and shield. But I'm still looking for suggestions &/or tweaks. The last two levels of Dwarven Paragon can easily be switched for something else if I like a recommendation.
El_Machinae 11-23-04, 12:29 PM	Unless I am mis-remembering, one cannot qualify for Battlesmith until level 7. Would your DM allow the Athar PrC from the Planar Handbook? It's REALLY unfaithful!
lostone 11-23-04, 07:37 PM	Unless I am mis-remembering, one cannot qualify for Battlesmith until level 7. Would your DM allow the Athar PrC from the Planar Handbook? It's REALLY unfaithful!Look at my last post again (immediately before yours), Battlesmith is being taken at 7th level. I had to borrow a book to read the Defiant PrC for the Athar, it's pretty powerful sounding and directly aimed at a game such as this where we'll deal with divine themes. Good suggestion. One more wrinkle in my character optimization. The DM asked me for any thoughts on how to make the game more interesting and memorable, and I suggested he look in Unearthed Arcana. He is now considering running a Gestalt game, so in case he does decide to go with that I'd like suggestions for a gestalt build as well. Depending on how he is willing to do it I could use the build I have now for one side of the build, and something like a lawful barbarian variant (with whirling rage) and take the Defiant as suggested above.