Be CustServ for a day? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Be CustServ for a day? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Auldar
09-05-06, 11:51 PM Hi CO folk,

I sent this to CustServ a week ago and haven't received a response - I suspect I wont be getting one.

As such, and given the complexity of the questions and the general knowledge level here, I figured I'd throw it out to you guys to pick it apart.

The more interpretations the better.

Clearly, most of these questions will probably fall into the realm of "ask your DM". Well since most of you have also DM'ed in your time, I'm actually more interested in how *you* would rule it where it's not clear cut.

I did think about posting in the Simple Question thread, but really, it's not a simple question.

I'm really trying to ascertain the validity of the build in my sig. I think it's legal, although there are a couple of points where the DM could interpret things in ways that wouldn't be to my advantage and might require taking other PrCs instead.

The Primeval PrC from Frostburn grants a (Su) ability called Primeval Form which allows you to select a DM approved prehistoric animal, and change into that form for 1 minute per Primeval level and gain stat increases. It's stated that it's "similar to Wild Shape", and works exactly like Polymorph with some exceptions. It's also stated that if you have Wild Shape from other class levels, you can use Wild Shape to enter your primeval form, but not the other way around.

Q1. Since Primeval Form is "similar to Wild Shape", does Primeval Form qualify you for Warshaper from Complete Warrior? I believe it does in much the same way the Bear Warrior is specifically allowed, and obviously the Warshaper benefits only apply when in Primeval Form.

Q2. Since you can use Wild Shape to enter the primeval form, are you limited to 1 minute per Primeval level, or the standard time allowed for Wild Shape which is 1 hour per druid level? I'm of the opinion you'd use the Wild Shape duration since you are using Wild Shape to enter the form, and not "expend a wild shape use to activate the Primeval Form (Su) ability".

Q3. Given my selected prehistoric animal is a Dire Ape, which is a Large animal (as are most Dire animals you're meant to use), does the Wild Shape ability have to be able to enter Large shape in order to use Wild Shape to enter the form? This is not specified in the text for Primeval Form - it simply states that "if you have the wild shape ability from other class levels, you can use wild shape to enter your primeval form". I'm of the opinion that the ability to become a Dire Ape through *either* Primeval Form or Wild Shape is provided by the Primeval PrC and that you don't need to be a level 8 Druid/Barb 2 in order to complete the PrC and be able to make use of Wild Shape to enter your form.

Q4. Does the alternate form of the Primeval qualify the character for the Oriental Adventure's Shapeshifter PrC since it's equivalent to polymorph, and the flavor text indicates that the ability to enter an alternate form is required?

Q5. Dragon magazine 318 updated Oriental Adventure's to 3.5. In the section on Shapeshifter on page 36, it was indicated that the shapeshifter's character level (rather than Shapeshifter class level) defined the Max HD of any form you can Wild Shape into. There is no mention of duration however. Can a Shapeshifter enter Wild Shape form 1 hour per character level, or 1 hour per shapeshifter level?

Q6. Would feats and magic items etc that work while "Wild Shaped" apply to Primeval Form, when you use Wild Shape (Su) to enter the form?

Q7. Would feats and magic items etc that work while "Wild Shaped" apply to Primeval Form, when you use Primeval Form (Su) to enter the form?
heax
09-06-06, 12:06 AM Q1. Personally, I would rule yes. At the end of the Warshaper Special requirements, it does say something along the lines of 'SIMILAR to the druid's Wild Shape Class feature', and this is so.

Q2. Does it say 'use' or 'expend' a use of wild shape? Personally, either way I would rule 1 minute per Primeval class level. However, I can see the arguement.

Q3. Yes, using a Wild Shape allows you to enter your Primeval form, no matter the size requirement.

Q4. I would rule yes, you are allowed. This is a personal opinion, and is due to flavour and no mechanics. If it is similar to wild shape, wild shape is similar to alternate form. There we go.

Q5. First off, as a steady DM, I only allow Dragon material in special scenarios. It is not truly published WOTC material (most if not all of the time) and therefore does not affect RAW in any way. The Shapechanger, when using its wildshape ability, would change for one hour per class (or shapechanger) level, and the when using the druid's wild shape ability, one hour per druid level.

Q6. I would rule yes, even if you didn't use the wild shape ability to turn into the Primeval's form. Again, not because of any RAW, but because of flavour. What really is the difference between the two systems in the grand scheme of the story? None. It's still shapeshifting, therefore the magic items would work for both.

Q7. Yes.
Iry
09-06-06, 12:08 AM Q1. Since Primeval Form is "similar to Wild Shape", does Primeval Form qualify you for Warshaper from Complete Warrior? Yes, it does.
Q2. Since you can use Wild Shape to enter the primeval form, are you limited to 1 minute per Primeval level, or the standard time allowed for Wild Shape which is 1 hour per druid level? You use the normal duration for Primeval Form, 1 minute per Primeval level.
Q3. Given my selected prehistoric animal is a Dire Ape, which is a Large animal (as are most Dire animals you're meant to use), does the Wild Shape ability have to be able to enter Large shape in order to use Wild Shape to enter the form? Your assumptions are mostly correct. You expend Wild Shape usages to fuel your Primeval form, and as such any specific requirements for Wild Shape are ignored.
Q4. Does the alternate form of the Primeval qualify the character for the Oriental Adventure's Shapeshifter PrC since it's equivalent to polymorph, and the flavor text indicates that the ability to enter an alternate form is required? Yes.
Q5. Dragon magazine 318 updated Oriental Adventure's to 3.5. In the section on Shapeshifter on page 36, it was indicated that the shapeshifter's character level (rather than Shapeshifter class level) defined the Max HD of any form you can Wild Shape into. There is no mention of duration however. Can a Shapeshifter enter Wild Shape form 1 hour per character level, or 1 hour per shapeshifter level?Depends on wether your DM allows Dragon Magazine material.
Q6. Would feats and magic items etc that work while "Wild Shaped" apply to Primeval Form, when you use Wild Shape (Su) to enter the form?Yes and No. Any feat that requires Wild Shape specifically does not work, because you're sacrificing Wild Shape attempts to fuel Primeval form. Anything that specifies an alternate form works fine.
Q7. Would feats and magic items etc that work while "Wild Shaped" apply to Primeval Form, when you use Primeval Form (Su) to enter the form?Since you are only using Wild Shape daily uses to fuel Primeval form, the above answer applies.
heax
09-06-06, 12:11 AM By feats that work 'While Wild Shaped' do you mean things like 'Expend an addition Wild Shape use to gain scent...'etc.? If so, then no, they don't work. But things like Natural Spell, and things that say 'while wild shaped' as in different form, yes.

...just to clarify my answers.
Fwib
09-06-06, 12:13 AM A1 I should think that the primeval form falls into 'wild shape or similar' - and even if not, after level 10 of Primeval you're a Shapechanger anyhow, so you could get in that way.

A2 I shouldn't think so - there are quite a few things (like [Wild] feats) that are (or can be) activated by Wild Shape charges and don't last very long at all...

A3 I don't think that the power of the Wild Shape matters, you just burn a charge, and you get to activate the primeval form as written

A4 Seems reasonable, although less so than A1, since there is no explicit get-out clause in the prereqs.

A5 I would say 1 hour per wildshaping class level.

A6 and 7 I would say probably not, in either case - but YMMV - all depends on the DM
Auldar
09-06-06, 12:17 AM Thanks for the replies so far guys.

By feats that work 'While Wild Shaped' do you mean things like 'Expend an addition Wild Shape use to gain scent...'etc.? If so, then no, they don't work. But things like Natural Spell, and things that say 'while wild shaped' as in different form, yes.

...just to clarify my answers.

I was more interested in magic items with "wild" enhancement for example than any particular feat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Auldar 09-05-06, 11:51 PM	Hi CO folk, I sent this to CustServ a week ago and haven't received a response - I suspect I wont be getting one. As such, and given the complexity of the questions and the general knowledge level here, I figured I'd throw it out to you guys to pick it apart. The more interpretations the better. Clearly, most of these questions will probably fall into the realm of "ask your DM". Well since most of you have also DM'ed in your time, I'm actually more interested in how you would rule it where it's not clear cut. I did think about posting in the Simple Question thread, but really, it's not a simple question. I'm really trying to ascertain the validity of the build in my sig. I think it's legal, although there are a couple of points where the DM could interpret things in ways that wouldn't be to my advantage and might require taking other PrCs instead. The Primeval PrC from Frostburn grants a (Su) ability called Primeval Form which allows you to select a DM approved prehistoric animal, and change into that form for 1 minute per Primeval level and gain stat increases. It's stated that it's "similar to Wild Shape", and works exactly like Polymorph with some exceptions. It's also stated that if you have Wild Shape from other class levels, you can use Wild Shape to enter your primeval form, but not the other way around. Q1. Since Primeval Form is "similar to Wild Shape", does Primeval Form qualify you for Warshaper from Complete Warrior? I believe it does in much the same way the Bear Warrior is specifically allowed, and obviously the Warshaper benefits only apply when in Primeval Form. Q2. Since you can use Wild Shape to enter the primeval form, are you limited to 1 minute per Primeval level, or the standard time allowed for Wild Shape which is 1 hour per druid level? I'm of the opinion you'd use the Wild Shape duration since you are using Wild Shape to enter the form, and not "expend a wild shape use to activate the Primeval Form (Su) ability". Q3. Given my selected prehistoric animal is a Dire Ape, which is a Large animal (as are most Dire animals you're meant to use), does the Wild Shape ability have to be able to enter Large shape in order to use Wild Shape to enter the form? This is not specified in the text for Primeval Form - it simply states that "if you have the wild shape ability from other class levels, you can use wild shape to enter your primeval form". I'm of the opinion that the ability to become a Dire Ape through either Primeval Form or Wild Shape is provided by the Primeval PrC and that you don't need to be a level 8 Druid/Barb 2 in order to complete the PrC and be able to make use of Wild Shape to enter your form. Q4. Does the alternate form of the Primeval qualify the character for the Oriental Adventure's Shapeshifter PrC since it's equivalent to polymorph, and the flavor text indicates that the ability to enter an alternate form is required? Q5. Dragon magazine 318 updated Oriental Adventure's to 3.5. In the section on Shapeshifter on page 36, it was indicated that the shapeshifter's character level (rather than Shapeshifter class level) defined the Max HD of any form you can Wild Shape into. There is no mention of duration however. Can a Shapeshifter enter Wild Shape form 1 hour per character level, or 1 hour per shapeshifter level? Q6. Would feats and magic items etc that work while "Wild Shaped" apply to Primeval Form, when you use Wild Shape (Su) to enter the form? Q7. Would feats and magic items etc that work while "Wild Shaped" apply to Primeval Form, when you use Primeval Form (Su) to enter the form?
heax 09-06-06, 12:06 AM	Q1. Personally, I would rule yes. At the end of the Warshaper Special requirements, it does say something along the lines of 'SIMILAR to the druid's Wild Shape Class feature', and this is so. Q2. Does it say 'use' or 'expend' a use of wild shape? Personally, either way I would rule 1 minute per Primeval class level. However, I can see the arguement. Q3. Yes, using a Wild Shape allows you to enter your Primeval form, no matter the size requirement. Q4. I would rule yes, you are allowed. This is a personal opinion, and is due to flavour and no mechanics. If it is similar to wild shape, wild shape is similar to alternate form. There we go. Q5. First off, as a steady DM, I only allow Dragon material in special scenarios. It is not truly published WOTC material (most if not all of the time) and therefore does not affect RAW in any way. The Shapechanger, when using its wildshape ability, would change for one hour per class (or shapechanger) level, and the when using the druid's wild shape ability, one hour per druid level. Q6. I would rule yes, even if you didn't use the wild shape ability to turn into the Primeval's form. Again, not because of any RAW, but because of flavour. What really is the difference between the two systems in the grand scheme of the story? None. It's still shapeshifting, therefore the magic items would work for both. Q7. Yes.
Iry 09-06-06, 12:08 AM	Q1. Since Primeval Form is "similar to Wild Shape", does Primeval Form qualify you for Warshaper from Complete Warrior? Yes, it does. Q2. Since you can use Wild Shape to enter the primeval form, are you limited to 1 minute per Primeval level, or the standard time allowed for Wild Shape which is 1 hour per druid level? You use the normal duration for Primeval Form, 1 minute per Primeval level. Q3. Given my selected prehistoric animal is a Dire Ape, which is a Large animal (as are most Dire animals you're meant to use), does the Wild Shape ability have to be able to enter Large shape in order to use Wild Shape to enter the form? Your assumptions are mostly correct. You expend Wild Shape usages to fuel your Primeval form, and as such any specific requirements for Wild Shape are ignored. Q4. Does the alternate form of the Primeval qualify the character for the Oriental Adventure's Shapeshifter PrC since it's equivalent to polymorph, and the flavor text indicates that the ability to enter an alternate form is required? Yes. Q5. Dragon magazine 318 updated Oriental Adventure's to 3.5. In the section on Shapeshifter on page 36, it was indicated that the shapeshifter's character level (rather than Shapeshifter class level) defined the Max HD of any form you can Wild Shape into. There is no mention of duration however. Can a Shapeshifter enter Wild Shape form 1 hour per character level, or 1 hour per shapeshifter level?Depends on wether your DM allows Dragon Magazine material. Q6. Would feats and magic items etc that work while "Wild Shaped" apply to Primeval Form, when you use Wild Shape (Su) to enter the form?Yes and No. Any feat that requires Wild Shape specifically does not work, because you're sacrificing Wild Shape attempts to fuel Primeval form. Anything that specifies an alternate form works fine. Q7. Would feats and magic items etc that work while "Wild Shaped" apply to Primeval Form, when you use Primeval Form (Su) to enter the form?Since you are only using Wild Shape daily uses to fuel Primeval form, the above answer applies.
heax 09-06-06, 12:11 AM	By feats that work 'While Wild Shaped' do you mean things like 'Expend an addition Wild Shape use to gain scent...'etc.? If so, then no, they don't work. But things like Natural Spell, and things that say 'while wild shaped' as in different form, yes. ...just to clarify my answers.
Fwib 09-06-06, 12:13 AM	A1 I should think that the primeval form falls into 'wild shape or similar' - and even if not, after level 10 of Primeval you're a Shapechanger anyhow, so you could get in that way. A2 I shouldn't think so - there are quite a few things (like [Wild] feats) that are (or can be) activated by Wild Shape charges and don't last very long at all... A3 I don't think that the power of the Wild Shape matters, you just burn a charge, and you get to activate the primeval form as written A4 Seems reasonable, although less so than A1, since there is no explicit get-out clause in the prereqs. A5 I would say 1 hour per wildshaping class level. A6 and 7 I would say probably not, in either case - but YMMV - all depends on the DM
Auldar 09-06-06, 12:17 AM	Thanks for the replies so far guys. By feats that work 'While Wild Shaped' do you mean things like 'Expend an addition Wild Shape use to gain scent...'etc.? If so, then no, they don't work. But things like Natural Spell, and things that say 'while wild shaped' as in different form, yes. ...just to clarify my answers. I was more interested in magic items with "wild" enhancement for example than any particular feat.