Bear warrior/Frenzied Berserker [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bear warrior/Frenzied Berserker [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
grey muse
08-06-04, 11:22 PM OK, so check my reasoning here.

Barb 3/Ftr 2/FB 6/Bear Warrior 5/Warshaper 4

While I'm not sure it's in the spirit of the rules, I think you can rage, go bear form, THEN frenzy for a +22 Str at level 16.

The bear form says its bonuses override those of the rage or frenzy, but it doesn't say that it overrides later bonuses from later rages or frenzies. The build is pretty straightforward, I just wanted opinions on whether this trick worked. I believe it does.

grey muse
Elhalyn
08-06-04, 11:38 PM I don't think it would work. IIRC, the Bear form ability replaces your normal benefits of Rage. That means that instead of going into normal Rage (or frenzy), you transform into a Bear.

So, if you entered rage again, you would simply transform into bear again, effectively wasting your Rage for nothing.

Of course I could be wrong, and if I am, it would be pretty cool.
kinglawngnome
08-06-04, 11:51 PM you cannot go into a rage when you are already raged, and when you are in bear form, you count as raging
Vapor IX
08-07-04, 12:00 AM I think it would work.

You rage, which turns you into a bear and replaces the normal rage bonuses. Then you frenzy, which stacks with normal rage bonuses, so it should stack with the replaced bonuses.
Elhalyn
08-07-04, 12:09 AM You rage, which turns you into a bear and replaces the normal rage bonuses. Then you frenzy, which stacks with normal rage bonuses, so it should stack with the replaced bonuses.

Problem is that Bear Form replaces the benefit of Frenzy too (well, you could argue that as Rage and Frenzy stack, you would get 2x the benefit of the strength increase of the Bear form... getting at least +32 as a Brown Bear... that would be REALLY cool, by I wouldn't agree with THAT.).
42up
08-07-04, 12:14 AM Originally posted by kinglawngnome
you cannot go into a rage when you are already raged, and when you are in bear form, you count as raging

what?

things like rage, frenzy and berserks all stack.
kinglawngnome
08-07-04, 12:19 AM but if you are raging, you cannot enter a new rage.

what i specifically meant by that post, however, was that if you frenzy while raging, the effects of frenzy get superceded by the bear warrior's bear form, because in the bear form descrip is states that it replaces those bonuses. even if you go into a frenzy later on, you won't get any plus to str until bear warrior runs out.

and personally, as a dm i rule that if you rage, you auto frenzy, because you in essence lose control of yourself. the only way to avoid this is with the righteous wrath feat, allowing for you to retain clarity of mind while raged
horndgod
08-07-04, 12:30 AM I designed a build based around this concept. The discussion about it eventually came to the conclusion that it's a gray area and thus up to DM fiat. However, remember that even if you can't stack a frenzy on top of bear form you can still effectively increase the duration you can stay in bear form in a single combat. Rage into bear form, and when the rage runs out, frenzy into bear form, house rules aside.
grey muse
08-07-04, 03:28 AM Yeah, again, house rules aside: rage and frenzy stack. It's an either/or proposition, per the rules you don't have to do both. And their effects, as untyped bonuses, stack. (That's what makes FB so good.)

Also, the bear warrior's ability isn't automatic -- you just have to be in a rage to use it. it's a standard action to go bear form.

So the idea is that you use rage as a free action then go bear form as a standard action for one turn, then frenzy as a free action after shifting. The bear form replaces the rage bonuses, then the frenzy bonuses get slapped on top of the bear form bonuses. Alternatively, you could frenzy and go bear form, then rage, if you thought you'd need the extra hp from rage's con boost.

Re: extending bear form: I don't know that that would work. You could let the rage expire and return to human form then frenzy and spend another standard action to switch back to bear form, but you'd be fatigued. If you're saying you could frenzy just before the rage wore out, that's true -- but per a strict reading of the rules, the rage would end and return you to human form. You wouldn't be fatigued (though you'd become exhausted after frenzy ended, per frenzy description) and you could immediately switch back to bear form, but it'd cost another standard action.

grey muse
GrolubFranco
01-04-05, 07:20 PM Does a character who has Stonewarden (CON to AC) from deepwarden get´s this bonus when in the Bear form?
warok
01-04-05, 08:12 PM GrolubFranco,
yes a DW would definetly get better ac from raging in bear form
GrolubFranco
01-05-05, 02:31 AM GrolubFranco,
yes a DW would definetly get better ac from raging in bear form

But it´s kinda weird that a character can use the stonewarden when in a shifted form (bear form)... So, if the bear is caught flat-footed or denied dexterity, the stonewarden bonus is gone. Kinda wierd...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
grey muse 08-06-04, 11:22 PM	OK, so check my reasoning here. Barb 3/Ftr 2/FB 6/Bear Warrior 5/Warshaper 4 While I'm not sure it's in the spirit of the rules, I think you can rage, go bear form, THEN frenzy for a +22 Str at level 16. The bear form says its bonuses override those of the rage or frenzy, but it doesn't say that it overrides later bonuses from later rages or frenzies. The build is pretty straightforward, I just wanted opinions on whether this trick worked. I believe it does. grey muse
Elhalyn 08-06-04, 11:38 PM	I don't think it would work. IIRC, the Bear form ability replaces your normal benefits of Rage. That means that instead of going into normal Rage (or frenzy), you transform into a Bear. So, if you entered rage again, you would simply transform into bear again, effectively wasting your Rage for nothing. Of course I could be wrong, and if I am, it would be pretty cool.
kinglawngnome 08-06-04, 11:51 PM	you cannot go into a rage when you are already raged, and when you are in bear form, you count as raging
Vapor IX 08-07-04, 12:00 AM	I think it would work. You rage, which turns you into a bear and replaces the normal rage bonuses. Then you frenzy, which stacks with normal rage bonuses, so it should stack with the replaced bonuses.
Elhalyn 08-07-04, 12:09 AM	You rage, which turns you into a bear and replaces the normal rage bonuses. Then you frenzy, which stacks with normal rage bonuses, so it should stack with the replaced bonuses. Problem is that Bear Form replaces the benefit of Frenzy too (well, you could argue that as Rage and Frenzy stack, you would get 2x the benefit of the strength increase of the Bear form... getting at least +32 as a Brown Bear... that would be REALLY cool, by I wouldn't agree with THAT.).
42up 08-07-04, 12:14 AM	Originally posted by kinglawngnome you cannot go into a rage when you are already raged, and when you are in bear form, you count as raging what? things like rage, frenzy and berserks all stack.
kinglawngnome 08-07-04, 12:19 AM	but if you are raging, you cannot enter a new rage. what i specifically meant by that post, however, was that if you frenzy while raging, the effects of frenzy get superceded by the bear warrior's bear form, because in the bear form descrip is states that it replaces those bonuses. even if you go into a frenzy later on, you won't get any plus to str until bear warrior runs out. and personally, as a dm i rule that if you rage, you auto frenzy, because you in essence lose control of yourself. the only way to avoid this is with the righteous wrath feat, allowing for you to retain clarity of mind while raged
horndgod 08-07-04, 12:30 AM	I designed a build based around this concept. The discussion about it eventually came to the conclusion that it's a gray area and thus up to DM fiat. However, remember that even if you can't stack a frenzy on top of bear form you can still effectively increase the duration you can stay in bear form in a single combat. Rage into bear form, and when the rage runs out, frenzy into bear form, house rules aside.
grey muse 08-07-04, 03:28 AM	Yeah, again, house rules aside: rage and frenzy stack. It's an either/or proposition, per the rules you don't have to do both. And their effects, as untyped bonuses, stack. (That's what makes FB so good.) Also, the bear warrior's ability isn't automatic -- you just have to be in a rage to use it. it's a standard action to go bear form. So the idea is that you use rage as a free action then go bear form as a standard action for one turn, then frenzy as a free action after shifting. The bear form replaces the rage bonuses, then the frenzy bonuses get slapped on top of the bear form bonuses. Alternatively, you could frenzy and go bear form, then rage, if you thought you'd need the extra hp from rage's con boost. Re: extending bear form: I don't know that that would work. You could let the rage expire and return to human form then frenzy and spend another standard action to switch back to bear form, but you'd be fatigued. If you're saying you could frenzy just before the rage wore out, that's true -- but per a strict reading of the rules, the rage would end and return you to human form. You wouldn't be fatigued (though you'd become exhausted after frenzy ended, per frenzy description) and you could immediately switch back to bear form, but it'd cost another standard action. grey muse
GrolubFranco 01-04-05, 07:20 PM	Does a character who has Stonewarden (CON to AC) from deepwarden get´s this bonus when in the Bear form?
warok 01-04-05, 08:12 PM	GrolubFranco, yes a DW would definetly get better ac from raging in bear form
GrolubFranco 01-05-05, 02:31 AM	GrolubFranco, yes a DW would definetly get better ac from raging in bear form But it´s kinda weird that a character can use the stonewarden when in a shifted form (bear form)... So, if the bear is caught flat-footed or denied dexterity, the stonewarden bonus is gone. Kinda wierd...