Bear-tie Hog-fang, an attempt at deadly hit-n-run justice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bear-tie Hog-fang, an attempt at deadly hit-n-run justice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Carnon
08-11-06, 03:39 PM A 14 level build, since it doesn't really matter what happens after that. Level 8 of Justiciar (at char level 14) along with the Bear Fang combat style is what counts. The first theoretical, not-for-a-campaign-right-now build I've made also, using only Core + Completes. I'd like to hear ideas, improvements, critique, whatever.

Assuming a human, average stats and no magic items, this guy (or gal, why not) can at level 14:
-sneak and surprise: hide and move silently are class skills, skills points are plenty enough
-two weapon pounce with battleaxe and dagger, any hits are crippling and +3d6 nonlethal damage
-start a grapple as a free action (Bear Fang) if both weapons hit, he has improved grapple
-gain another attack from Bear Fang if he succeeded in grappling his foe
-use the attack action for Improved Hog-Tie (Justiciar 8) on his foe unless said foe succeeds on a grapple or escape artist check vs about 40-50
-win initiative, denying foe his one attempt at escape: improved initiative along with dex as highest stat
-coup de grace hog-tied and helpless foe as a standard action next turn with Power Attack, forcing a Fort save of probably about 80-90

It gets better with magic items, friendly spellcasters etc. And of course the above sequence only works against humanoid-shaped creatures up to one size-category larger.

There's many ways to do the first 6 levels, I ended up with the following: Human LN/LE Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Hexblade 1/Occult Slayer 1/Justiciar 8

Feats:
1 Track(ranger), Power Attack, Improved Initiative(human), WF:battleaxe(flaw), SF:gather information(flaw)
2 TWF(ranger)
3 WF:dagger(fighter), Bear Fang
4 Quick Draw(fighter)
6 ITWF
8 Improved Grapple(justiciar)
9 EWP:Manacles(justiciar), TW Pounce
12 Death Blow
14 Improved Hog-tie of Death! (ok, so it's not a feat, so what)
15 GTWF (ok, I said level 14 would be enough but I think this is worth taking anyway)

Need 15 in Str, 17-19 in Dex (a couple of stat boosts go here), something decent in Con. It's quite possible to dump all mentals - his best base save is Will, he can get all the necessary skills to qualify even with Int 8 and Charisma is just plain useless. Int 10 or 12 would be nice for extra skills though.

Continue with whatever you want to. More Hexblade or Occult Slayer levels; Exemplar for take 10 on use rope, hide etc; Bloodhound for more stalking flavour and crippling strikes... Slap the LA +1 Dark template on him if you really want him sneaky.

Find a decent dagger (maybe enfeebling or something), good +Dex gloves and that's about it. Maybe a +10 wondrous item of custom bondage to make those checks a little better. Carry several battleaxes, manacles and silk ropes since you'll be dropping many and may not have time to pick every single one up.

Comments?

Personally I think his grapple check sucks - full BAB +average Str bonus +4 from Improved Grapple +little from crippling strikes isn't good enough. Being larger would help, I guess...
carnivore
08-11-06, 04:13 PM interesting idea.......nice

but doesnt the Justicar require Non-Evil alingment? i dont remember right now.....and dont have any books with me

:D
Carnon
08-11-06, 04:35 PM but doesnt the Justicar require Non-Evil alingment? i dont remember right now.....and dont have any books with me

Any lawful. The other prereqs are SF:gather info and Track; BAB +6; gather info, search and survival 5. The Occult Slayer level is there for gather information primarily although I like the flavour it brings too.
Surreal
08-11-06, 04:47 PM You could qualify for Bloodhound by ecl 4 with the city slicker feat or H-elf ranger racial sub level.

An excellent dagger would be one with the smoking enhancement (Lords of Darkness, FR). It basically gives you partial concealment and your opponent needs to make a save each round to avoid a status effect (sickened? nauseated? I don't remember).
Carnon
08-11-06, 05:15 PM You could qualify for Bloodhound by ecl 4 with the city slicker feat or H-elf ranger racial sub level.

I'd lose two feats (other fighter feat + either the human bonus feat or a feat of my choice to fit City Slicker in), but gain more skills (assuming I took the feat and am still human) and a couple of minor abilities in addition to being closer to the better Bloodhound abilities. Possible, but not sure whether it's any better...

An excellent dagger would be one with the smoking enhancement (Lords of Darkness, FR). It basically gives you partial concealment and your opponent needs to make a save each round to avoid a status effect (sickened? nauseated? I don't remember).

Sounds nice, both of the abilities... Thanks. I don't have the book but I'll have to look that up when I get the chance.
Zemyla
08-11-06, 07:26 PM Or you could just take Urban Ranger, a class variant in Unearthed Arcana.
Carnon
08-12-06, 02:46 AM Or you could just take Urban Ranger, a class variant in Unearthed Arcana.

That would gain me gather information as a class skill, true, but I'd lose access to survival, which is also required for Justiciar.

Any classes out there that not only give necessary skills but also nice class abilities adding to the meat in the build? What about feats?

Anything increasing size (allowing him to hog-tie larger foes and grapple better) or to-hit (even at the expense of damage, allowing more hits, cripples and grappling) would be sweet.
Maat_Mons
08-12-06, 03:38 AM -gain another attack from Bear Fang if he succeeded in grappling his foe
-use the attack action for Improved Hog-Tie (Justiciar 8) on his foe unless said foe succeeds on a grapple or escape artist check vs. about 40-50

The attack granted by Bear Fang must be made with a dagger, so that won’t work.

I’d suggest using seven levels of Druid as a lead-in to Justiciar. You can use Aberration Wildshape and that druid spell that grants you the extraordinary qualities of your forms to gain the Adhesive quality of the mimic. This is superior to Bear Fang; you automatically grapple a foe you hit with one attack, no grapple check required. You can eventually use Improved Rapidstrike to gain a respectable number of attacks. Best of all, you never have to make any grapple checks to hog-tie opponents; you can just focus on having a good Use Rope modifier and ignore your grapple modifier.
Carnon
08-12-06, 04:38 AM The attack granted by Bear Fang must be made with a dagger, so that won’t work.

If making a standard attack, yes. Hog-tie however only requires you to give up an attack action, it doesn't matter what kind of attack action it is. From CW: "Whenever a grapple is established, the justiciar can use an attack action to make a hog-tie attempt."

He isn't even using a weapon to attack, just messing around with the length of rope he whipped out with Quick Draw.

Take for example someone attacking with natural weapons, say bite-claw-claw - of course they also have to take each attack with the approriate weapon (bite or claw), would you argue they cannot use the hog-tie ability at all?

It seems clear enough to me, but then again I can't remember having seen definitions on what an "attack action" actually is and am basing this on the English language.

I’d suggest using seven levels of Druid as a lead-in to Justiciar. You can use Aberration Wildshape and that druid spell that grants you the extraordinary qualities of your forms to gain the Adhesive quality of the mimic. This is superior to Bear Fang; you automatically grapple a foe you hit with one attack, no grapple check required. You can eventually use Improved Rapidstrike to gain a respectable number of attacks. Best of all, you never have to make any grapple checks to hog-tie opponents; you can just focus on having a good Use Rope modifier and ignore your grapple modifier.

Ok, this is the kind of feedback I was looking for, thanks. I'm unfamiliar with a lot of the things you mentioned here, but it does sound like a good alternative approach. What level spells are we talking about? Any prereqs to Aberration Wildshape or anything else?

I would have to take 8 levels total though, to meet the BAB +6 prereq - that's delaying the all Justiciar abilities by two levels.

Would this be possible with the wildshape variant Ranger or are the spells too vital?
Maat_Mons
08-12-06, 06:01 AM Hog-tie however only requires you to give up an attack action, it doesn't matter what kind of attack action it is.

That’s a good point. I was thinking that the rule from Bear Fang that the attack must be made with a dagger superseded the rule from Hog-Tie that any attack could be used. I suppose it could just as easily be the other way around. This would produce an odd quirk in that the extra attack granted by Rapid Shot could be used for a hog-tie attempt.

Take for example someone attacking with natural weapons, say bite-claw-claw - of course they also have to take each attack with the approriate weapon (bite or claw), would you argue they cannot use the hog-tie ability at all?

The two possible interpretations are that the creature could use its natural weapon attacks or that it would have to forgo natural weapon rules and make attacks according to its base attack bonus. I’ll withdraw my objection, but I’m not exactly sure what the limitations on Hog-Tie are.

What level spells are we talking about? Any prereqs to Aberration Wildshape or anything else?

I would have to take 8 levels total though, to meet the BAB +6 prereq - that's delaying the all Justiciar abilities by two levels.

Would this be possible with the wildshape variant Ranger or are the spells too vital?

I tracked down the spell, Enhance Wild Shape; it can be found in the Spell Compendium. It’s a fourth-level druid-only spell. You’ll only need to cast one or, maybe, two per day, so you can activate it from a wand with Use Magic Device. If you use a wand, you can drop Druid in favor of anything that grants Wild Shape. Remember though, a mimic has seven hit dice. [Edit: They are also large, come to think of it. Maybe Wild Shape Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 2 would be acceptable.]

Aberration Wild Shape is from Lords of Madness; the only prerequisite is Aberration Blood, which only requires you to be humanoid.

Even if you do have to push the build back by a level or two, I think it would be worth it. I was in a campaign with a guy who played a justciar; he spent an inordinant portion of his resources trying to boost his grapple modifier. This both gaurentees success and frees up those resources. Since you have gained four or so feats by dropping Bear Fang and its prerequisites, you might consider Lion’s Pounce. It’s only useful if you use the Rapidstrike feat chain, but five or six attacks will greatly increase your chances of success.
Carnon
08-13-06, 02:19 PM I tracked down the spell, Enhance Wild Shape; it can be found in the Spell Compendium. It’s a fourth-level druid-only spell. You’ll only need to cast one or, maybe, two per day, so you can activate it from a wand with Use Magic Device. If you use a wand, you can drop Druid in favor of anything that grants Wild Shape. Remember though, a mimic has seven hit dice. [Edit: They are also large, come to think of it. Maybe Wild Shape Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 2 would be acceptable.]

Ok, possible alternate build starting to look good although a little item-dependant. Ranger 5/MoMF 2 seems to get the required BAB, skills and wild shaping, but not having UMD as a class skill sucks.

Aberration Wild Shape is from Lords of Madness; the only prerequisite is Aberration Blood, which only requires you to be humanoid.

Even if you do have to push the build back by a level or two, I think it would be worth it. I was in a campaign with a guy who played a justciar; he spent an inordinant portion of his resources trying to boost his grapple modifier. This both gaurentees success and frees up those resources. Since you have gained four or so feats by dropping Bear Fang and its prerequisites, you might consider Lion’s Pounce. It’s only useful if you use the Rapidstrike feat chain, but five or six attacks will greatly increase your chances of success.

I'd still like to keep Power Attack, for the over-the-top coup de grace actions. Wildshaping replaces TWF, but the two WF feats and Bear Fang could go. Would need to take Alertness to qualify for MoMF and wouldn't be getting the two Fighter bonus feats, so we're about even now. Would need to spend two feats on Aberration Wild Shape, they should probably replace the additional TWF feats. Not sure whether there'd be any additional feats to use after all of this?

I'm not familiar with Rapidstrike, which book is it? Searching isn't getting me anywhere right now.

Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Justiciar 8 would be a nice 20 level build, just enough to get both Improved Hog-tie and Extraordinary Wild Shape (and Aberrations one level before this) while losing only 2 points of BAB, but I hate waiting for key elements until level 19 or 20.

Any other 5 levels that would be better than levels 3-7 of MoMF and maybe the Aberration feats? I kinda like the idea of an Exemplar, showing everyone how to really tie someone up nice and good, and gaining access to the class is easy since I already have SF:gather info.
hobbit_killer
08-17-06, 04:10 PM I've played a build like this and it's pretty fun.

Race: Dwarf or Human

Ranger3/Fighter6-8 (thug variant)/Exotic Weapon Master1/Justicar8-10

Thug gets you gather information as a class skill.

Exotic Weapon Master lets you get Uncanny Blow if you use a Dwarven Waraxe

Human Bonus Feat is obviously EWP: Dwarven Waraxe

Key Feats: SF: GI, WF: dagger, WF: dwarven waraxe, power attack, bear fang, two weapon pounce, two weapon rend, improved initiative, death blow

Doing a coup de grace after you hog tie is what it's all about.

This leaves you one or two feats left depending on the levels of fighter you take. I went with Urban Tracking for RP reasons but YMMV.
Esponer
08-17-06, 06:11 PM I was musing over this build, and remembered the expensive but deadly antimagic shackles. Does anybody remember where that is? What other methods are there to absolutely ensure that somebody is out of action, e.g., can't cast spells? Additionally, is there any way to make sure that they have very little chance of getting out?

I quite like the original build (the Mimic build is stronger, but not as stylish in my opinion), and was wondering if it's possible to make a build that could quite reliably tie up, bind and render utterly helpless and useless multiple people. It seems (as far as I know: correct me if I'm wrong) that both builds at the moment are wonderful for quick slaughtering, but not optimised for making people utterly useless.
Zaxter
08-17-06, 08:52 PM Antimagic Shackles are from Book of Exalted Deeds, if I'm not mistaken.
One_Who_lurks
08-19-06, 11:23 PM I really like the look of this build, and am tempted to use it or a variation of it in an upcoming game, I was just wondering...

Where is Bear Claw from?

Thx
calvayne
08-24-06, 10:20 PM i would consider throwing in 2 lvls of psy warrior. they get a 1st lvl power called expansion and if you were a half giant you get powerful build and +2 str. if you combine powerful build with expansion you are considered huge when grappling(+8 bonus against med creatures). and yes they stack according to the powerful build description "The benifits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subjects size category." p.13 of EP. if you didnt want to use the lvls see if you can get an item with this power for x rounds per day.

also a must are gloves in sword and fist for 15000gp that give you a +5 to grapple there are also titans gloves er something somewhere that give you a +8 for 14000gp but they arent always in affect. or making custom gloves with grip of iron power.
Dnjscott
08-25-06, 12:11 AM Hey, dunno if it's too much of a divergence, but Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm might work a bit better for this build--it allows something like IMproved Grab for humanoids with a melee weapon.
Carnon
08-26-06, 06:26 AM i would consider throwing in 2 lvls of psy warrior. they get a 1st lvl power called expansion and if you were a half giant you get powerful build and +2 str. if you combine powerful build with expansion you are considered huge when grappling(+8 bonus against med creatures).

Actually this is the direction I'd taken the build a while ago, I just didn't have time to check these boards. Decided to take War Mind instead of Psychic Warrior because of full BAB and more power points, which I felt are more valuable than the bonus feats.

For a full build and assuming no LA buyoff (with LA buyoff take the Dark Creature template first), I have a lawful half-giant and the following 19 levels: Urban Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Slayer 1/War Mind 1/Justiciar 8/Slayer 2-6

If starting at a higher level, you can mix the Justiciar and Slayer levels to get more use out of the Justiciar's better skill list.

Feats are WF:battleaxe(1), Imp Init (flaw), Education(flaw), Track(R1), PA(F1), WF:dagger(3), Quick Draw(F2), TWF(R2), SF:gather info(6), Bear Fang(9), ITWF(12), Death Blow(15), Darkstalker(18). Skills points go into survival/gather info, hide/move silently, use rope, spot/listen/search etc, depending on your preferences.

Education at first level gets me the three different knowledge skills I don't have but need to qualify for PrCs, Darkstalker is for more hide and seek games, the other feats are pretty much the same as in the first build. War Mind 1/Slayer 6 gets third level PsyWar powers, decent power points and Cerebral Blind for even more sneakiness. Expansion, Grip of Iron, Psionic Lion's Charge... I didn't find anything exceptional in the third level powers, anything I've missed?

This makes for very good tracking and sneaking, completely undetected by most means, full BAB and crippling strikes, good grapple checks and thus very likely semi-insta-kills. Especially if he can get Hide in Plain Sight from somewhere (Dark Creature template, a wondrous item), he is very capable of taking out any humanoid-shaped foe one-on-one, including spellcasters. Unless they have freedom of movement active before combat begins or as a trigger effect. That would suck.

For items, the various +grapple gloves (Titan's Grip, Fearsome Grip) that people have mentioned seem to be a must. Shackles of Silence at 12,000 gold are a bargain, useful as both an anti spellcasting and anti alarm-shouting measure. A bunch of +competence to skill X items. Something for flying. Good enchanted weapons of course but the +damage enhancements (flaming etc) should be avoided, they're not what this build needs. Whatever other fun stuff you can find.

Surprise round: initiate combat, pounce, slash and stab, hog-tie. First combat round: coup de grace, stupid one-liner, disappear, combat over.

Where is Bear Claw from?

Complete Warrior, weapon style feats, page 112-113.

Hey, dunno if it's too much of a divergence, but Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm might work a bit better for this build

True, it might, but I don't have the book so I don't know the specifics. I also dislike the need to first take Improved Unarmed Strike, I'd rather avoid that and walk the two-weapon slashing and stabbing and crippling road instead.
Surreal
08-26-06, 12:07 PM A had a somewhat similar build that had some monk mixed in for Scorpion's Grasp and Weakening touch (CW), which made it all the easier to grapple.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Carnon 08-11-06, 03:39 PM	A 14 level build, since it doesn't really matter what happens after that. Level 8 of Justiciar (at char level 14) along with the Bear Fang combat style is what counts. The first theoretical, not-for-a-campaign-right-now build I've made also, using only Core + Completes. I'd like to hear ideas, improvements, critique, whatever. Assuming a human, average stats and no magic items, this guy (or gal, why not) can at level 14: -sneak and surprise: hide and move silently are class skills, skills points are plenty enough -two weapon pounce with battleaxe and dagger, any hits are crippling and +3d6 nonlethal damage -start a grapple as a free action (Bear Fang) if both weapons hit, he has improved grapple -gain another attack from Bear Fang if he succeeded in grappling his foe -use the attack action for Improved Hog-Tie (Justiciar 8) on his foe unless said foe succeeds on a grapple or escape artist check vs about 40-50 -win initiative, denying foe his one attempt at escape: improved initiative along with dex as highest stat -coup de grace hog-tied and helpless foe as a standard action next turn with Power Attack, forcing a Fort save of probably about 80-90 It gets better with magic items, friendly spellcasters etc. And of course the above sequence only works against humanoid-shaped creatures up to one size-category larger. There's many ways to do the first 6 levels, I ended up with the following: Human LN/LE Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Hexblade 1/Occult Slayer 1/Justiciar 8 Feats: 1 Track(ranger), Power Attack, Improved Initiative(human), WF:battleaxe(flaw), SF:gather information(flaw) 2 TWF(ranger) 3 WF:dagger(fighter), Bear Fang 4 Quick Draw(fighter) 6 ITWF 8 Improved Grapple(justiciar) 9 EWP:Manacles(justiciar), TW Pounce 12 Death Blow 14 Improved Hog-tie of Death! (ok, so it's not a feat, so what) 15 GTWF (ok, I said level 14 would be enough but I think this is worth taking anyway) Need 15 in Str, 17-19 in Dex (a couple of stat boosts go here), something decent in Con. It's quite possible to dump all mentals - his best base save is Will, he can get all the necessary skills to qualify even with Int 8 and Charisma is just plain useless. Int 10 or 12 would be nice for extra skills though. Continue with whatever you want to. More Hexblade or Occult Slayer levels; Exemplar for take 10 on use rope, hide etc; Bloodhound for more stalking flavour and crippling strikes... Slap the LA +1 Dark template on him if you really want him sneaky. Find a decent dagger (maybe enfeebling or something), good +Dex gloves and that's about it. Maybe a +10 wondrous item of custom bondage to make those checks a little better. Carry several battleaxes, manacles and silk ropes since you'll be dropping many and may not have time to pick every single one up. Comments? Personally I think his grapple check sucks - full BAB +average Str bonus +4 from Improved Grapple +little from crippling strikes isn't good enough. Being larger would help, I guess...
carnivore 08-11-06, 04:13 PM	interesting idea.......nice but doesnt the Justicar require Non-Evil alingment? i dont remember right now.....and dont have any books with me :D
Carnon 08-11-06, 04:35 PM	but doesnt the Justicar require Non-Evil alingment? i dont remember right now.....and dont have any books with me Any lawful. The other prereqs are SF:gather info and Track; BAB +6; gather info, search and survival 5. The Occult Slayer level is there for gather information primarily although I like the flavour it brings too.
Surreal 08-11-06, 04:47 PM	You could qualify for Bloodhound by ecl 4 with the city slicker feat or H-elf ranger racial sub level. An excellent dagger would be one with the smoking enhancement (Lords of Darkness, FR). It basically gives you partial concealment and your opponent needs to make a save each round to avoid a status effect (sickened? nauseated? I don't remember).
Carnon 08-11-06, 05:15 PM	You could qualify for Bloodhound by ecl 4 with the city slicker feat or H-elf ranger racial sub level. I'd lose two feats (other fighter feat + either the human bonus feat or a feat of my choice to fit City Slicker in), but gain more skills (assuming I took the feat and am still human) and a couple of minor abilities in addition to being closer to the better Bloodhound abilities. Possible, but not sure whether it's any better... An excellent dagger would be one with the smoking enhancement (Lords of Darkness, FR). It basically gives you partial concealment and your opponent needs to make a save each round to avoid a status effect (sickened? nauseated? I don't remember). Sounds nice, both of the abilities... Thanks. I don't have the book but I'll have to look that up when I get the chance.
Zemyla 08-11-06, 07:26 PM	Or you could just take Urban Ranger, a class variant in Unearthed Arcana.
Carnon 08-12-06, 02:46 AM	Or you could just take Urban Ranger, a class variant in Unearthed Arcana. That would gain me gather information as a class skill, true, but I'd lose access to survival, which is also required for Justiciar. Any classes out there that not only give necessary skills but also nice class abilities adding to the meat in the build? What about feats? Anything increasing size (allowing him to hog-tie larger foes and grapple better) or to-hit (even at the expense of damage, allowing more hits, cripples and grappling) would be sweet.
Maat_Mons 08-12-06, 03:38 AM	-gain another attack from Bear Fang if he succeeded in grappling his foe -use the attack action for Improved Hog-Tie (Justiciar 8) on his foe unless said foe succeeds on a grapple or escape artist check vs. about 40-50 The attack granted by Bear Fang must be made with a dagger, so that won’t work. I’d suggest using seven levels of Druid as a lead-in to Justiciar. You can use Aberration Wildshape and that druid spell that grants you the extraordinary qualities of your forms to gain the Adhesive quality of the mimic. This is superior to Bear Fang; you automatically grapple a foe you hit with one attack, no grapple check required. You can eventually use Improved Rapidstrike to gain a respectable number of attacks. Best of all, you never have to make any grapple checks to hog-tie opponents; you can just focus on having a good Use Rope modifier and ignore your grapple modifier.
Carnon 08-12-06, 04:38 AM	The attack granted by Bear Fang must be made with a dagger, so that won’t work. If making a standard attack, yes. Hog-tie however only requires you to give up an attack action, it doesn't matter what kind of attack action it is. From CW: "Whenever a grapple is established, the justiciar can use an attack action to make a hog-tie attempt." He isn't even using a weapon to attack, just messing around with the length of rope he whipped out with Quick Draw. Take for example someone attacking with natural weapons, say bite-claw-claw - of course they also have to take each attack with the approriate weapon (bite or claw), would you argue they cannot use the hog-tie ability at all? It seems clear enough to me, but then again I can't remember having seen definitions on what an "attack action" actually is and am basing this on the English language. I’d suggest using seven levels of Druid as a lead-in to Justiciar. You can use Aberration Wildshape and that druid spell that grants you the extraordinary qualities of your forms to gain the Adhesive quality of the mimic. This is superior to Bear Fang; you automatically grapple a foe you hit with one attack, no grapple check required. You can eventually use Improved Rapidstrike to gain a respectable number of attacks. Best of all, you never have to make any grapple checks to hog-tie opponents; you can just focus on having a good Use Rope modifier and ignore your grapple modifier. Ok, this is the kind of feedback I was looking for, thanks. I'm unfamiliar with a lot of the things you mentioned here, but it does sound like a good alternative approach. What level spells are we talking about? Any prereqs to Aberration Wildshape or anything else? I would have to take 8 levels total though, to meet the BAB +6 prereq - that's delaying the all Justiciar abilities by two levels. Would this be possible with the wildshape variant Ranger or are the spells too vital?
Maat_Mons 08-12-06, 06:01 AM	Hog-tie however only requires you to give up an attack action, it doesn't matter what kind of attack action it is. That’s a good point. I was thinking that the rule from Bear Fang that the attack must be made with a dagger superseded the rule from Hog-Tie that any attack could be used. I suppose it could just as easily be the other way around. This would produce an odd quirk in that the extra attack granted by Rapid Shot could be used for a hog-tie attempt. Take for example someone attacking with natural weapons, say bite-claw-claw - of course they also have to take each attack with the approriate weapon (bite or claw), would you argue they cannot use the hog-tie ability at all? The two possible interpretations are that the creature could use its natural weapon attacks or that it would have to forgo natural weapon rules and make attacks according to its base attack bonus. I’ll withdraw my objection, but I’m not exactly sure what the limitations on Hog-Tie are. What level spells are we talking about? Any prereqs to Aberration Wildshape or anything else? I would have to take 8 levels total though, to meet the BAB +6 prereq - that's delaying the all Justiciar abilities by two levels. Would this be possible with the wildshape variant Ranger or are the spells too vital? I tracked down the spell, Enhance Wild Shape; it can be found in the Spell Compendium. It’s a fourth-level druid-only spell. You’ll only need to cast one or, maybe, two per day, so you can activate it from a wand with Use Magic Device. If you use a wand, you can drop Druid in favor of anything that grants Wild Shape. Remember though, a mimic has seven hit dice. [Edit: They are also large, come to think of it. Maybe Wild Shape Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 2 would be acceptable.] Aberration Wild Shape is from Lords of Madness; the only prerequisite is Aberration Blood, which only requires you to be humanoid. Even if you do have to push the build back by a level or two, I think it would be worth it. I was in a campaign with a guy who played a justciar; he spent an inordinant portion of his resources trying to boost his grapple modifier. This both gaurentees success and frees up those resources. Since you have gained four or so feats by dropping Bear Fang and its prerequisites, you might consider Lion’s Pounce. It’s only useful if you use the Rapidstrike feat chain, but five or six attacks will greatly increase your chances of success.
Carnon 08-13-06, 02:19 PM	I tracked down the spell, Enhance Wild Shape; it can be found in the Spell Compendium. It’s a fourth-level druid-only spell. You’ll only need to cast one or, maybe, two per day, so you can activate it from a wand with Use Magic Device. If you use a wand, you can drop Druid in favor of anything that grants Wild Shape. Remember though, a mimic has seven hit dice. [Edit: They are also large, come to think of it. Maybe Wild Shape Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 2 would be acceptable.] Ok, possible alternate build starting to look good although a little item-dependant. Ranger 5/MoMF 2 seems to get the required BAB, skills and wild shaping, but not having UMD as a class skill sucks. Aberration Wild Shape is from Lords of Madness; the only prerequisite is Aberration Blood, which only requires you to be humanoid. Even if you do have to push the build back by a level or two, I think it would be worth it. I was in a campaign with a guy who played a justciar; he spent an inordinant portion of his resources trying to boost his grapple modifier. This both gaurentees success and frees up those resources. Since you have gained four or so feats by dropping Bear Fang and its prerequisites, you might consider Lion’s Pounce. It’s only useful if you use the Rapidstrike feat chain, but five or six attacks will greatly increase your chances of success. I'd still like to keep Power Attack, for the over-the-top coup de grace actions. Wildshaping replaces TWF, but the two WF feats and Bear Fang could go. Would need to take Alertness to qualify for MoMF and wouldn't be getting the two Fighter bonus feats, so we're about even now. Would need to spend two feats on Aberration Wild Shape, they should probably replace the additional TWF feats. Not sure whether there'd be any additional feats to use after all of this? I'm not familiar with Rapidstrike, which book is it? Searching isn't getting me anywhere right now. Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Justiciar 8 would be a nice 20 level build, just enough to get both Improved Hog-tie and Extraordinary Wild Shape (and Aberrations one level before this) while losing only 2 points of BAB, but I hate waiting for key elements until level 19 or 20. Any other 5 levels that would be better than levels 3-7 of MoMF and maybe the Aberration feats? I kinda like the idea of an Exemplar, showing everyone how to really tie someone up nice and good, and gaining access to the class is easy since I already have SF:gather info.
hobbit_killer 08-17-06, 04:10 PM	I've played a build like this and it's pretty fun. Race: Dwarf or Human Ranger3/Fighter6-8 (thug variant)/Exotic Weapon Master1/Justicar8-10 Thug gets you gather information as a class skill. Exotic Weapon Master lets you get Uncanny Blow if you use a Dwarven Waraxe Human Bonus Feat is obviously EWP: Dwarven Waraxe Key Feats: SF: GI, WF: dagger, WF: dwarven waraxe, power attack, bear fang, two weapon pounce, two weapon rend, improved initiative, death blow Doing a coup de grace after you hog tie is what it's all about. This leaves you one or two feats left depending on the levels of fighter you take. I went with Urban Tracking for RP reasons but YMMV.
Esponer 08-17-06, 06:11 PM	I was musing over this build, and remembered the expensive but deadly antimagic shackles. Does anybody remember where that is? What other methods are there to absolutely ensure that somebody is out of action, e.g., can't cast spells? Additionally, is there any way to make sure that they have very little chance of getting out? I quite like the original build (the Mimic build is stronger, but not as stylish in my opinion), and was wondering if it's possible to make a build that could quite reliably tie up, bind and render utterly helpless and useless multiple people. It seems (as far as I know: correct me if I'm wrong) that both builds at the moment are wonderful for quick slaughtering, but not optimised for making people utterly useless.
Zaxter 08-17-06, 08:52 PM	Antimagic Shackles are from Book of Exalted Deeds, if I'm not mistaken.
One_Who_lurks 08-19-06, 11:23 PM	I really like the look of this build, and am tempted to use it or a variation of it in an upcoming game, I was just wondering... Where is Bear Claw from? Thx
calvayne 08-24-06, 10:20 PM	i would consider throwing in 2 lvls of psy warrior. they get a 1st lvl power called expansion and if you were a half giant you get powerful build and +2 str. if you combine powerful build with expansion you are considered huge when grappling(+8 bonus against med creatures). and yes they stack according to the powerful build description "The benifits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subjects size category." p.13 of EP. if you didnt want to use the lvls see if you can get an item with this power for x rounds per day. also a must are gloves in sword and fist for 15000gp that give you a +5 to grapple there are also titans gloves er something somewhere that give you a +8 for 14000gp but they arent always in affect. or making custom gloves with grip of iron power.
Dnjscott 08-25-06, 12:11 AM	Hey, dunno if it's too much of a divergence, but Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm might work a bit better for this build--it allows something like IMproved Grab for humanoids with a melee weapon.
Carnon 08-26-06, 06:26 AM	i would consider throwing in 2 lvls of psy warrior. they get a 1st lvl power called expansion and if you were a half giant you get powerful build and +2 str. if you combine powerful build with expansion you are considered huge when grappling(+8 bonus against med creatures). Actually this is the direction I'd taken the build a while ago, I just didn't have time to check these boards. Decided to take War Mind instead of Psychic Warrior because of full BAB and more power points, which I felt are more valuable than the bonus feats. For a full build and assuming no LA buyoff (with LA buyoff take the Dark Creature template first), I have a lawful half-giant and the following 19 levels: Urban Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Slayer 1/War Mind 1/Justiciar 8/Slayer 2-6 If starting at a higher level, you can mix the Justiciar and Slayer levels to get more use out of the Justiciar's better skill list. Feats are WF:battleaxe(1), Imp Init (flaw), Education(flaw), Track(R1), PA(F1), WF:dagger(3), Quick Draw(F2), TWF(R2), SF:gather info(6), Bear Fang(9), ITWF(12), Death Blow(15), Darkstalker(18). Skills points go into survival/gather info, hide/move silently, use rope, spot/listen/search etc, depending on your preferences. Education at first level gets me the three different knowledge skills I don't have but need to qualify for PrCs, Darkstalker is for more hide and seek games, the other feats are pretty much the same as in the first build. War Mind 1/Slayer 6 gets third level PsyWar powers, decent power points and Cerebral Blind for even more sneakiness. Expansion, Grip of Iron, Psionic Lion's Charge... I didn't find anything exceptional in the third level powers, anything I've missed? This makes for very good tracking and sneaking, completely undetected by most means, full BAB and crippling strikes, good grapple checks and thus very likely semi-insta-kills. Especially if he can get Hide in Plain Sight from somewhere (Dark Creature template, a wondrous item), he is very capable of taking out any humanoid-shaped foe one-on-one, including spellcasters. Unless they have freedom of movement active before combat begins or as a trigger effect. That would suck. For items, the various +grapple gloves (Titan's Grip, Fearsome Grip) that people have mentioned seem to be a must. Shackles of Silence at 12,000 gold are a bargain, useful as both an anti spellcasting and anti alarm-shouting measure. A bunch of +competence to skill X items. Something for flying. Good enchanted weapons of course but the +damage enhancements (flaming etc) should be avoided, they're not what this build needs. Whatever other fun stuff you can find. Surprise round: initiate combat, pounce, slash and stab, hog-tie. First combat round: coup de grace, stupid one-liner, disappear, combat over. Where is Bear Claw from? Complete Warrior, weapon style feats, page 112-113. Hey, dunno if it's too much of a divergence, but Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm might work a bit better for this build True, it might, but I don't have the book so I don't know the specifics. I also dislike the need to first take Improved Unarmed Strike, I'd rather avoid that and walk the two-weapon slashing and stabbing and crippling road instead.
Surreal 08-26-06, 12:07 PM	A had a somewhat similar build that had some monk mixed in for Scorpion's Grasp and Weakening touch (CW), which made it all the easier to grapple.