Beating Death [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beating Death [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fieari
05-27-06, 12:22 AM I'm always amazed at what the CharOp board can come up with with limited level resources. As a way to pass the time on my days off from work, I often like to stat up very high CR creatures, combining epic monsters and powerful templates just to see what I can come up with. Of course, some of you have already seen my enlarged tarrasque (Here (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Brobdingnagian_Teratoid_Tarrasque)) and demolished it at level 28.

So I've a new toy for you guys to play with, at a mere Challenge Rating of 130, instead of the 1558 of the tarrasque. On the other hand, it won't fall to the Cheater or the Cancer mage or the Cosmic Descrier. I hope this one takes slightly more work, and is actually accurate for its challenge rating... I mean, CRs should mean something, right?

Behold The Angel of Death (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/The_Angel_of_Death), using templates and creatures from the Immortal's Handbook.

So... what's the lowest ECL character you can come up with to kill it? No Pun-Puns please. I'm thinking it would take some sort of tricked out Paladin or Cleric, maybe a really really good archer... ECL 30ish? 60ish? I'm having a hard time imagining any sub-epic character handling this.
DavidWL
05-27-06, 12:53 AM A charger build could take it out in 1 blow if it could hit.

=> Add a spash of build to win initiative, add a splash of build for epic spellcasting (to guarantee a hit).
Fieari
05-27-06, 01:19 AM Chargers rely on the first melee strike, which Death automatically blocks. Check out the Death Scythe. We'll need a charger with a full attack... which I understand exists. But that charger will still have to deal 1500 damage with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th hits alone. He'll also have to deal with a DC 76 will save or be struck dumb mid charge. Death is also huge, so he'll need tumble to get past the AoO closing in. The last problem is that even if you kill Death, he can come back up to full health 2d4 times instantly, so we may still be looking at a need to be able to survive Death's full attack...

But enough naysaying, let's start with a full attack charger. How do we get the will and initiative up enough?
Grave
05-27-06, 01:26 AM Well, levels in Palading wouldn't hurt for Divine Grace and Charging Smite in lieu of Special Mount. Another way for a melee'er to up will saves is netting Steadfast Determination. Also, is the awesome visage aura subject to mindblank?

-Grave & Co
tsuyoshikentsu
05-27-06, 01:35 AM This is totally off the top of my head, but how about this:

An elf Wizard (hummingbird familiar + sub, of course) buffs DEX up the wazoo, then casts seven contingencies of a no-save, SR-applies spell, then teleport in and cast a Quickened SR-applies spell. The character is optimied to beat a really high SR.

I have NO idea if it works or not, but hey, it's worth a shot.
DavidWL
05-27-06, 01:37 AM Chargers rely on the first melee strike, which Death automatically blocks. Check out the Death Scythe. We'll need a charger with a full attack... which I understand exists. But that charger will still have to deal 1500 damage with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th hits alone.

The ubercharger: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=401662 can attack 5 times, dealing over 3000 damage on each attack.

His attacks are only at +60, but that's where magic comes in.

He'll also have to deal with a DC 76 will save or be struck dumb mid charge.

Can you point to a link in the hyperlinked SRD which definies, "struck dumb". I suspect that there are easy ways to get immunity, but I don't know for sure.

Death is also huge, so he'll need tumble to get past the AoO closing in.

"With a DC 25 Tumble check, you can pass right through a foe's space without provoking an attack of opportunity. If you fail the check, you stop before entering the foe's space and you provoke an attack of opportunity from that foe." -- piece of cake.

The last problem is that even if you kill Death, he can come back up to full health 2d4 times instantly, so we may still be looking at a need to be able to survive Death's full attack...

A psionic Ubercharger could probably do it. Get multiple full attacks ...

As it is, we have 5 attacks. Get it to 10 and we're done (1 extra full attack -- perhaps with shapechange cheese?) -- allowing us to lose one to the autoblock and still kill Death and all of his extra lives.

But enough naysaying, let's start with a full attack charger. How do we get the will and initiative up enough?

We don't try to get will high enough -- we get abilities that give us immunities. (Or things like the PHBII "Mad Foam Rager"? I don't have the book, but the feat looks like it might be useful).

We could probably win initiative through something like an augmented "Anticipatory Strike".
Fieari
05-27-06, 01:48 AM Struck Dumb is an IH thing, sorry. Means you can take no actions. Looks mind effecting to me.

Note: Tumbling doesn't work during a charge. Normal movement only.

Wow. The Ubercharger is quite amazing... what magic are you using to add a +123 (or thereabouts) to hit? And for survivability's sake, we should be considering that 75% of all attacks fail, 50% with a ghost touch weapon. Looks like so far we need a +10 Ghost Touch Holy greataxe, or if not Holy, some other way to make it good aligned, like being a good angel.

Next step... need to make either a fort save 83, or be immune to death effects.

I'm also thinking we'll need to be teleported in, in order to start combat within charging range. I'd assume that the edge of the aura at least would trigger an initiative roll. Also, the Ubercharger needs prep time to be effective.

Contingency could make for a bad day too, esspecially if there's a contingency to planeshift away if trouble pops up. If Death has initiative on you, or god forbid, a surprise round, things get scary. Might want to drop a MDJ on Death first... he might be immune to magic, but the contingency would still go away I think, and the small chance at destroying his artifacts couldn't hurt. A scroll or something? Eatting into our charge action though...
runestar
05-27-06, 03:10 AM Sometimes, I wonder if there should be some line drawn for when CO work crosses the boundaries of good taste and start entering the realms of absurdity... :rolleyes:

I know this is the CO boards, where anything is possible, but still.... :(
Subedei
05-27-06, 03:29 AM Well, the CO board generally seems to stay away from epic material as it tends to be a bit too abusable and...odd.
Fieari
05-27-06, 03:38 AM Most of the ambiguity with epic stuff, in my estimation, comes from making up your own epic spells involving massive DC reduction via adding additional casters. If we limit epic spells to the SRD "sample spells", epic stuff doesn't seem to get too outrageous.

To be honest, I'm kinda hoping to stress test the CR system. I like it when the numbers work out so that when the CR says you shouldn't be able to beat something until X level, then you actually need to at least be close to that level to have a chance. With the assumption that an optimized character might be able to stand in the role of an entire party, that should mean the low end of levels should be, as I said, somewhere 30-60... which is my hope.

If worse comes to worse, instead of one character to take on death, why not a team effort by an entire party? Wizardly backup with buffs, teleports, contingencies, and other such things could help out greatly, I'd imagine.

Errr... I am working with the house rule that BAB and saves continue to progress as normal into epic levels. I mean, if dragons get to continue their progression, why not everyone else?
DavidWL
05-27-06, 03:43 AM Struck Dumb is an IH thing, sorry. Means you can take no actions. Looks mind effecting to me.

Ok. Mindblank.

Note: Tumbling doesn't work during a charge. Normal movement only.

My bad. I want to say there might be a feat which would help ameliorate this, but the truth is I don't remember ...

Wow. The Ubercharger is quite amazing... what magic are you using to add a +123 (or thereabouts) to hit? And for survivability's sake, we should be considering that 75% of all attacks fail, 50% with a ghost touch weapon. Looks like so far we need a +10 Ghost Touch Holy greataxe, or if not Holy, some other way to make it good aligned, like being a good angel.

Ah, yes, I forgot about the 50%. I vaguely remember something that lets you re-roll your attack roll due to miss chances. That would drop it down to 25%.

The cheap and easy way to get the bonus to hit would be with Epic Magic. (It's the cheap and easy way to do everything).

However, with something like inpire recklessness and true strike you have a +40 right there (in addition to the +68 from Otto's charger build). => ~ 110. Still
~75 short.

Ever the optimist, I'm sure it's possible. (The other cheap and easy way to do it would be to use an epic artificer to craft an item with a high enough caster level to cast spells which would give high enough bonuses to hit).

Next step... need to make either a fort save 83, or be immune to death effects.

Perhaps "Death Ward"?

I'm also thinking we'll need to be teleported in, in order to start combat within charging range. I'd assume that the edge of the aura at least would trigger an initiative roll. Also, the Ubercharger needs prep time to be effective.

True, you need prep time.

Contingency could make for a bad day too, esspecially if there's a contingency to planeshift away if trouble pops up. If Death has initiative on you, or god forbid, a surprise round, things get scary. Might want to drop a MDJ on Death first... he might be immune to magic, but the contingency would still go away I think, and the small chance at destroying his artifacts couldn't hurt. A scroll or something? Eatting into our charge action though...

Actually, now that you meantion it, there are a number of things you can do with repeated MDJs to destroy items that very well could be worth it....
Piraatje
05-27-06, 03:45 AM One Mind Blank and One Soulfire Armour to negate the pesky aura's.

Plus, let's not forget, you can actually turn the bugger. Especially the cower variant of turning is interesting, as he isn't immune to it ;)
runestar
05-27-06, 05:59 AM That true...in theory, any epic threat could be eliminated simply by researching the appropriate epic spell.... :D
Caelic
05-27-06, 08:25 AM When you say "No Pun-Puns," do you mean "No uncapped loops of any kind whatsoever?"

If not, I believe I can beat old Skeletor, here, with a character of...hmm. Call it 20th level, just to give me a bit of slack room. At any rate, we can certainly get a character who will always win initiative, always roll high enough to hit, and deal enough damage in a single shot to drop His Boniness, barring natural 1's, and I believe with the right feats we can also ensure that he'll have high enough saves.
Fieari
05-28-06, 06:27 PM Yeah. Trying to avoid uncapped stuff, mostly because uncapped loops can be generically applied to any situation, which takes the fun out of the optimization game. Loops are fun to devise in general, less so for the specific...

What's soulfire armor from, and what does it do?

And while he can be turned, Death has an effective HD of 175. Given the premise of removing infinite loops, getting the check high enough to turn him would be quite a feat, and interesting for the task.

If we go into epic, I'm really hoping for "No custom epic spells", since they require the whole DM adjucation thing, which is part of the reason I'm sure that the CharOp board doesn't like to touch it.

One way to get the to hit a little higher will be to make Undead the favored enemy, which means not having to put quite as much into the power attack. Won't be enough to get that last 75 to hit...

Leaving the charger on the side for a moment, and getting him a cohort wizard for a bunch of MDJs to maximize the chance of pulling down the Robe? At CL 20, 5 MDJs have a slightly better than 75% chance of destroying an artifact. Taking down the robes grants us the ability to hit the AC.
rilem
05-28-06, 10:23 PM Soulfire's from the Book of Exalted Deeds, +4 equivalent immune to death effects, energy drain, etc. Slap that enchantment on Cortical Armor (Underdark, Mind Blank effect) or wear a Cowl of Warding (Magic of Faerun, same effect) and that should take care of both auras. Total cost: about 220,000 gp. Immunities are fairly easy to come by at this level.
Kresalak
05-28-06, 10:28 PM I have a question. Does this guy actually have a Divine Rank? If not, it brings out the ability to use Antimagic Field on him. After Disjoining all the artifacts, of course.
prototype00
05-28-06, 11:02 PM And while he can be turned, Death has an effective HD of 175. Given the premise of removing infinite loops, getting the check high enough to turn him would be quite a feat, and interesting for the task.

A sun domain cleric with soulfire armor and a mindblank on him with about 40 zombies all holding rods of defiance can greater turning Death as a standard action.

Rod of defiance -4 turn resistance. (libris Mortis)

prototype00

Umm, scratch the zombies. Animated miniature figurines of Jozan work much better.

Accomplishable from level 1, given enough rod of defiances.
Fieari
05-28-06, 11:48 PM I have a question. Does this guy actually have a Divine Rank? If not, it brings out the ability to use Antimagic Field on him. After Disjoining all the artifacts, of course.
Sortof. He has divine rank, but no SDAs, no immunities derived from the DvR, no SLAs derived from the DvR, etc. Basically, he just gets, well, a +14 to just about everything.
DavidWL
05-29-06, 01:20 AM Actually -- why not take Death's stuff and use it yourself? Just give our charger a lot of ranks of Sleight of Hand, and use his stuff against him: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=297776

This completely gets rid of miss chance problems, any challenge to hit the AC, etc. (EDIT: It does say a "small" item, however, if you make yourself larger ...)

A little cheesy, but it works pre-epic.
Fieari
05-30-06, 03:21 PM Oh, and I just remembered... if you have any concealment, you don't provoke AoO... so Darkness or Fog could help there.

As for enlarging yourself... well, you'll note Death (and his gear) is Huge. I'd think you'd have to make yourself gargantuan first.
Kresalak
05-30-06, 03:39 PM Sortof. He has divine rank, but no SDAs, no immunities derived from the DvR, no SLAs derived from the DvR, etc. Basically, he just gets, well, a +14 to just about everything.
The question is to whether or not he is actually counted as being a god. If so, he has the nice immunity to all things that state they only affect mortals (i.e., creatures without divine rank). If not, he is vulnerable to such things as deities and antimagic field, even if his artifacts are not.

So, as his creator, would you say he counts as having DR 14 for purposes of being an intermediate deity?
Fieari
05-30-06, 05:06 PM Yes. That's definitely the case. I'm using IH rules, which is how I created the artifacts (yes, artifact creation rules). In the IH, SDAs are treated as a basically 5 epic feats combined, which means I could also just give him the epic feats instead, which is what I did. The IH did get rid of the "always maximum roll" rule as well as the following automatic immunities: transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind effecting, electricity, cold, acid, disease, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects, disintegration, banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, turning and rebuking. (all of those can be obtained as feats instead, or divine abilities, which, as I said, work like feats)

On the other hand, the templates I used and the base creature I used grant most of those anyway, and more besides.

He's still a god though. Definitely not a mortal, and doesn't qualify as a mortal for spells that specify mortals.
Kresalak
05-30-06, 05:22 PM Ah, ok then. No antimagic field or the like then.
Fieari
05-30-06, 08:58 PM It seems that a level 20 party, with sufficient planning, could take down death with a fair assurance of victory. (MDJ wizard + Ubercharger, or a level 20 cleric with lots of wealth and leadership plus teleport circle)

How about surviving Death, given that Death attacks first?

To even things up and make things fair, lets assume we're desiging a deity ourselves here, and even though I'm not using the DDg rules, I'll let you guys do so. Let's say DvR 1, 20 levels of outsider free, +your 20 level build. Saves and BAB use sub-epic progression rules.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fieari 05-27-06, 12:22 AM	I'm always amazed at what the CharOp board can come up with with limited level resources. As a way to pass the time on my days off from work, I often like to stat up very high CR creatures, combining epic monsters and powerful templates just to see what I can come up with. Of course, some of you have already seen my enlarged tarrasque (Here (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Brobdingnagian_Teratoid_Tarrasque)) and demolished it at level 28. So I've a new toy for you guys to play with, at a mere Challenge Rating of 130, instead of the 1558 of the tarrasque. On the other hand, it won't fall to the Cheater or the Cancer mage or the Cosmic Descrier. I hope this one takes slightly more work, and is actually accurate for its challenge rating... I mean, CRs should mean something, right? Behold The Angel of Death (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/The_Angel_of_Death), using templates and creatures from the Immortal's Handbook. So... what's the lowest ECL character you can come up with to kill it? No Pun-Puns please. I'm thinking it would take some sort of tricked out Paladin or Cleric, maybe a really really good archer... ECL 30ish? 60ish? I'm having a hard time imagining any sub-epic character handling this.
DavidWL 05-27-06, 12:53 AM	A charger build could take it out in 1 blow if it could hit. => Add a spash of build to win initiative, add a splash of build for epic spellcasting (to guarantee a hit).
Fieari 05-27-06, 01:19 AM	Chargers rely on the first melee strike, which Death automatically blocks. Check out the Death Scythe. We'll need a charger with a full attack... which I understand exists. But that charger will still have to deal 1500 damage with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th hits alone. He'll also have to deal with a DC 76 will save or be struck dumb mid charge. Death is also huge, so he'll need tumble to get past the AoO closing in. The last problem is that even if you kill Death, he can come back up to full health 2d4 times instantly, so we may still be looking at a need to be able to survive Death's full attack... But enough naysaying, let's start with a full attack charger. How do we get the will and initiative up enough?
Grave 05-27-06, 01:26 AM	Well, levels in Palading wouldn't hurt for Divine Grace and Charging Smite in lieu of Special Mount. Another way for a melee'er to up will saves is netting Steadfast Determination. Also, is the awesome visage aura subject to mindblank? -Grave & Co
tsuyoshikentsu 05-27-06, 01:35 AM	This is totally off the top of my head, but how about this: An elf Wizard (hummingbird familiar + sub, of course) buffs DEX up the wazoo, then casts seven contingencies of a no-save, SR-applies spell, then teleport in and cast a Quickened SR-applies spell. The character is optimied to beat a really high SR. I have NO idea if it works or not, but hey, it's worth a shot.
DavidWL 05-27-06, 01:37 AM	Chargers rely on the first melee strike, which Death automatically blocks. Check out the Death Scythe. We'll need a charger with a full attack... which I understand exists. But that charger will still have to deal 1500 damage with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th hits alone. The ubercharger: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=401662 can attack 5 times, dealing over 3000 damage on each attack. His attacks are only at +60, but that's where magic comes in. He'll also have to deal with a DC 76 will save or be struck dumb mid charge. Can you point to a link in the hyperlinked SRD which definies, "struck dumb". I suspect that there are easy ways to get immunity, but I don't know for sure. Death is also huge, so he'll need tumble to get past the AoO closing in. "With a DC 25 Tumble check, you can pass right through a foe's space without provoking an attack of opportunity. If you fail the check, you stop before entering the foe's space and you provoke an attack of opportunity from that foe." -- piece of cake. The last problem is that even if you kill Death, he can come back up to full health 2d4 times instantly, so we may still be looking at a need to be able to survive Death's full attack... A psionic Ubercharger could probably do it. Get multiple full attacks ... As it is, we have 5 attacks. Get it to 10 and we're done (1 extra full attack -- perhaps with shapechange cheese?) -- allowing us to lose one to the autoblock and still kill Death and all of his extra lives. But enough naysaying, let's start with a full attack charger. How do we get the will and initiative up enough? We don't try to get will high enough -- we get abilities that give us immunities. (Or things like the PHBII "Mad Foam Rager"? I don't have the book, but the feat looks like it might be useful). We could probably win initiative through something like an augmented "Anticipatory Strike".
Fieari 05-27-06, 01:48 AM	Struck Dumb is an IH thing, sorry. Means you can take no actions. Looks mind effecting to me. Note: Tumbling doesn't work during a charge. Normal movement only. Wow. The Ubercharger is quite amazing... what magic are you using to add a +123 (or thereabouts) to hit? And for survivability's sake, we should be considering that 75% of all attacks fail, 50% with a ghost touch weapon. Looks like so far we need a +10 Ghost Touch Holy greataxe, or if not Holy, some other way to make it good aligned, like being a good angel. Next step... need to make either a fort save 83, or be immune to death effects. I'm also thinking we'll need to be teleported in, in order to start combat within charging range. I'd assume that the edge of the aura at least would trigger an initiative roll. Also, the Ubercharger needs prep time to be effective. Contingency could make for a bad day too, esspecially if there's a contingency to planeshift away if trouble pops up. If Death has initiative on you, or god forbid, a surprise round, things get scary. Might want to drop a MDJ on Death first... he might be immune to magic, but the contingency would still go away I think, and the small chance at destroying his artifacts couldn't hurt. A scroll or something? Eatting into our charge action though...
runestar 05-27-06, 03:10 AM	Sometimes, I wonder if there should be some line drawn for when CO work crosses the boundaries of good taste and start entering the realms of absurdity... :rolleyes: I know this is the CO boards, where anything is possible, but still.... :(
Subedei 05-27-06, 03:29 AM	Well, the CO board generally seems to stay away from epic material as it tends to be a bit too abusable and...odd.
Fieari 05-27-06, 03:38 AM	Most of the ambiguity with epic stuff, in my estimation, comes from making up your own epic spells involving massive DC reduction via adding additional casters. If we limit epic spells to the SRD "sample spells", epic stuff doesn't seem to get too outrageous. To be honest, I'm kinda hoping to stress test the CR system. I like it when the numbers work out so that when the CR says you shouldn't be able to beat something until X level, then you actually need to at least be close to that level to have a chance. With the assumption that an optimized character might be able to stand in the role of an entire party, that should mean the low end of levels should be, as I said, somewhere 30-60... which is my hope. If worse comes to worse, instead of one character to take on death, why not a team effort by an entire party? Wizardly backup with buffs, teleports, contingencies, and other such things could help out greatly, I'd imagine. Errr... I am working with the house rule that BAB and saves continue to progress as normal into epic levels. I mean, if dragons get to continue their progression, why not everyone else?
DavidWL 05-27-06, 03:43 AM	Struck Dumb is an IH thing, sorry. Means you can take no actions. Looks mind effecting to me. Ok. Mindblank. Note: Tumbling doesn't work during a charge. Normal movement only. My bad. I want to say there might be a feat which would help ameliorate this, but the truth is I don't remember ... Wow. The Ubercharger is quite amazing... what magic are you using to add a +123 (or thereabouts) to hit? And for survivability's sake, we should be considering that 75% of all attacks fail, 50% with a ghost touch weapon. Looks like so far we need a +10 Ghost Touch Holy greataxe, or if not Holy, some other way to make it good aligned, like being a good angel. Ah, yes, I forgot about the 50%. I vaguely remember something that lets you re-roll your attack roll due to miss chances. That would drop it down to 25%. The cheap and easy way to get the bonus to hit would be with Epic Magic. (It's the cheap and easy way to do everything). However, with something like inpire recklessness and true strike you have a +40 right there (in addition to the +68 from Otto's charger build). => ~ 110. Still ~75 short. Ever the optimist, I'm sure it's possible. (The other cheap and easy way to do it would be to use an epic artificer to craft an item with a high enough caster level to cast spells which would give high enough bonuses to hit). Next step... need to make either a fort save 83, or be immune to death effects. Perhaps "Death Ward"? I'm also thinking we'll need to be teleported in, in order to start combat within charging range. I'd assume that the edge of the aura at least would trigger an initiative roll. Also, the Ubercharger needs prep time to be effective. True, you need prep time. Contingency could make for a bad day too, esspecially if there's a contingency to planeshift away if trouble pops up. If Death has initiative on you, or god forbid, a surprise round, things get scary. Might want to drop a MDJ on Death first... he might be immune to magic, but the contingency would still go away I think, and the small chance at destroying his artifacts couldn't hurt. A scroll or something? Eatting into our charge action though... Actually, now that you meantion it, there are a number of things you can do with repeated MDJs to destroy items that very well could be worth it....
Piraatje 05-27-06, 03:45 AM	One Mind Blank and One Soulfire Armour to negate the pesky aura's. Plus, let's not forget, you can actually turn the bugger. Especially the cower variant of turning is interesting, as he isn't immune to it ;)
runestar 05-27-06, 05:59 AM	That true...in theory, any epic threat could be eliminated simply by researching the appropriate epic spell.... :D
Caelic 05-27-06, 08:25 AM	When you say "No Pun-Puns," do you mean "No uncapped loops of any kind whatsoever?" If not, I believe I can beat old Skeletor, here, with a character of...hmm. Call it 20th level, just to give me a bit of slack room. At any rate, we can certainly get a character who will always win initiative, always roll high enough to hit, and deal enough damage in a single shot to drop His Boniness, barring natural 1's, and I believe with the right feats we can also ensure that he'll have high enough saves.
Fieari 05-28-06, 06:27 PM	Yeah. Trying to avoid uncapped stuff, mostly because uncapped loops can be generically applied to any situation, which takes the fun out of the optimization game. Loops are fun to devise in general, less so for the specific... What's soulfire armor from, and what does it do? And while he can be turned, Death has an effective HD of 175. Given the premise of removing infinite loops, getting the check high enough to turn him would be quite a feat, and interesting for the task. If we go into epic, I'm really hoping for "No custom epic spells", since they require the whole DM adjucation thing, which is part of the reason I'm sure that the CharOp board doesn't like to touch it. One way to get the to hit a little higher will be to make Undead the favored enemy, which means not having to put quite as much into the power attack. Won't be enough to get that last 75 to hit... Leaving the charger on the side for a moment, and getting him a cohort wizard for a bunch of MDJs to maximize the chance of pulling down the Robe? At CL 20, 5 MDJs have a slightly better than 75% chance of destroying an artifact. Taking down the robes grants us the ability to hit the AC.
rilem 05-28-06, 10:23 PM	Soulfire's from the Book of Exalted Deeds, +4 equivalent immune to death effects, energy drain, etc. Slap that enchantment on Cortical Armor (Underdark, Mind Blank effect) or wear a Cowl of Warding (Magic of Faerun, same effect) and that should take care of both auras. Total cost: about 220,000 gp. Immunities are fairly easy to come by at this level.
Kresalak 05-28-06, 10:28 PM	I have a question. Does this guy actually have a Divine Rank? If not, it brings out the ability to use Antimagic Field on him. After Disjoining all the artifacts, of course.
prototype00 05-28-06, 11:02 PM	And while he can be turned, Death has an effective HD of 175. Given the premise of removing infinite loops, getting the check high enough to turn him would be quite a feat, and interesting for the task. A sun domain cleric with soulfire armor and a mindblank on him with about 40 zombies all holding rods of defiance can greater turning Death as a standard action. Rod of defiance -4 turn resistance. (libris Mortis) prototype00 Umm, scratch the zombies. Animated miniature figurines of Jozan work much better. Accomplishable from level 1, given enough rod of defiances.
Fieari 05-28-06, 11:48 PM	I have a question. Does this guy actually have a Divine Rank? If not, it brings out the ability to use Antimagic Field on him. After Disjoining all the artifacts, of course. Sortof. He has divine rank, but no SDAs, no immunities derived from the DvR, no SLAs derived from the DvR, etc. Basically, he just gets, well, a +14 to just about everything.
DavidWL 05-29-06, 01:20 AM	Actually -- why not take Death's stuff and use it yourself? Just give our charger a lot of ranks of Sleight of Hand, and use his stuff against him: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=297776 This completely gets rid of miss chance problems, any challenge to hit the AC, etc. (EDIT: It does say a "small" item, however, if you make yourself larger ...) A little cheesy, but it works pre-epic.
Fieari 05-30-06, 03:21 PM	Oh, and I just remembered... if you have any concealment, you don't provoke AoO... so Darkness or Fog could help there. As for enlarging yourself... well, you'll note Death (and his gear) is Huge. I'd think you'd have to make yourself gargantuan first.
Kresalak 05-30-06, 03:39 PM	Sortof. He has divine rank, but no SDAs, no immunities derived from the DvR, no SLAs derived from the DvR, etc. Basically, he just gets, well, a +14 to just about everything. The question is to whether or not he is actually counted as being a god. If so, he has the nice immunity to all things that state they only affect mortals (i.e., creatures without divine rank). If not, he is vulnerable to such things as deities and antimagic field, even if his artifacts are not. So, as his creator, would you say he counts as having DR 14 for purposes of being an intermediate deity?
Fieari 05-30-06, 05:06 PM	Yes. That's definitely the case. I'm using IH rules, which is how I created the artifacts (yes, artifact creation rules). In the IH, SDAs are treated as a basically 5 epic feats combined, which means I could also just give him the epic feats instead, which is what I did. The IH did get rid of the "always maximum roll" rule as well as the following automatic immunities: transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind effecting, electricity, cold, acid, disease, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects, disintegration, banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, turning and rebuking. (all of those can be obtained as feats instead, or divine abilities, which, as I said, work like feats) On the other hand, the templates I used and the base creature I used grant most of those anyway, and more besides. He's still a god though. Definitely not a mortal, and doesn't qualify as a mortal for spells that specify mortals.
Kresalak 05-30-06, 05:22 PM	Ah, ok then. No antimagic field or the like then.
Fieari 05-30-06, 08:58 PM	It seems that a level 20 party, with sufficient planning, could take down death with a fair assurance of victory. (MDJ wizard + Ubercharger, or a level 20 cleric with lots of wealth and leadership plus teleport circle) How about surviving Death, given that Death attacks first? To even things up and make things fair, lets assume we're desiging a deity ourselves here, and even though I'm not using the DDg rules, I'll let you guys do so. Let's say DvR 1, 20 levels of outsider free, +your 20 level build. Saves and BAB use sub-epic progression rules.