Beguiler 1/Spellthief 1/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beguiler 1/Spellthief 1/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lotus Crane
01-31-07, 05:46 PM I know that the standard Ultimate Magus build to gain 9th level wizard spells pre-epic is wizard 4/sorcerer 1/UM 10/arcane PrC (advancing wizard) 5, by using Practiced Spellcaster (and optionally, an Illumian ability) to inflate sorcerer caster level above wizard caster level, so that at 1st, 4th, and 7th level of UM, you can choose to advance your wizard spellcasting progression.

I was wondering though, what do you think about beguiler 1/spellthief 1/wizard 3/UM 10/arcane PrC (advancing wizard) 5, taking the Master Spellthief feat at 6th character level (1st UM level), which if I'm reading correctly, would still allow you to advance wizard instead of sorcerer spellcasting progression at 1st, 4th, and 7th level of UM, since Master Spellthief makes the caster level for all of your arcane spells the same?

This build still provides 9th level wizard spells by 19th character level, which is the same as the standard build (the Illumian ability makes this possible by 18th IIRC, but that restricts you to that race). It has additional benefits over the standard wizard 4/sorcerer 1 entry in that you have a few more hit points, a lot more skill points (assume you take beguiler or spellthief at 1st instead of wizard), less MAD (both classes' spells work off of Int), the ability to cast even wizard spells in light armor, and the ability to conserve magic by stealing spells occasionally.

What do you think of this idea? What race and feats (besides the required Master Spellthief) would you use? Did somebody else beat me to this punch? Hey, this is my first post to the CO boards, so maybe I have no idea what I'm doing! ^_^;
Timespike
01-31-07, 06:12 PM I like your thinking on this one. What were you thinking for a capstone PrC? My personal inclinations would be Unseen Seer or Abjurant Champion. I don't see any reason why Illumian wouldn't work. Although if you want, you could go Elf; the elven first-level racial substitution level for wizard would be good. The extra weapon proficiencies would be as nice as they always are, too.

Edit: Spellwarp Sniper would be an excellent choice too.
Lotus Crane
01-31-07, 11:38 PM Unseen Seer seems the logical choice, considering how it ties in nicely with the beguiler and spellthief abilities from the beginning of the career, and makes this character a strong secondary skill-monkey for the party. I think Abjurant Champion might actually be a mistake, because the build up to 15th level already has terrible hit points and BAB; there's no way to salvage a viable gish out of this.

Illumian isn't really necessary because the caster level-increasing sigil is limited by HD the same way Practiced Spellcaster is, which is obviated by the benefits of Master Spellthief. The Illumian trick is really only effective for the standard wizard 4/sorcerer 1 entry. Human is an obvious choice (as always), but you're right, elf (especially grey) works well too, especially considering that racial substitution you mentioned.

One of the requirements for UM is any metamagic feat, and the PrC also grants two bonus metamagic feats. Which ones would be your first picks?
Timespike
02-10-07, 12:48 AM Unseen Seer seems the logical choice, considering how it ties in nicely with the beguiler and spellthief abilities from the beginning of the career, and makes this character a strong secondary skill-monkey for the party. I think Abjurant Champion might actually be a mistake, because the build up to 15th level already has terrible hit points and BAB; there's no way to salvage a viable gish out of this.

Illumian isn't really necessary because the caster level-increasing sigil is limited by HD the same way Practiced Spellcaster is, which is obviated by the benefits of Master Spellthief. The Illumian trick is really only effective for the standard wizard 4/sorcerer 1 entry. Human is an obvious choice (as always), but you're right, elf (especially grey) works well too, especially considering that racial substitution you mentioned.

One of the requirements for UM is any metamagic feat, and the PrC also grants two bonus metamagic feats. Which ones would be your first picks?

I personally like Deceptive Spell (from Cityscape) and Quicken Spell for this kind of caster. Being able to get spells off fast or without tipping your hand seem like tricks you'd want to have as this type of caster. For the third one, I'd say Silent Spell. As far as non-metamagic feats go, I'd personally look into mobile spellcasting and extraordinary concentration (both from Complete Advenurer).

And as far as equipment selection goes, if you go the elf route, strap on a mithral breastplate and pick up a longsword, and wear a dagger at your belt on the other side, even if it never gets used. Plate the breastplate with a thin layer of something else, like bronze, so it doesn't look so lightweight; you want your enemy to think you're a swordsman until it's too late and burn a round and a spell or ability trying to overcome your (VERY high) will save at the beginning of the fight. A little mundane deception can sometimes be enough to buy you a "second surprise round" where your enemy is still off-balance.

Get as much "covert ops" gear as you can lay your hands on. Wand bracers (from dungeonscape), a belt of many pockets (complete arcane) stuffed with alchemical gear and mundane equipment from the arms & equipment guide, gloves of the master strategist (ghostwalk), a gnome steambow (arms & equipment guide), etc.

Oh, and one other race option you may want to consider: Changeling.

EDIT: Some other things you may want to look into are listed below:

Skill tricks (Complete Scoundrel) In particular Conceal Spellcasting, Magical Appraisal, and False Theurgy would all be useful to this kind of character.
Alchemical Weapon Capsules (Complete Adventurer)
Alchemist Sling Bullets (Arms & Equipment guide)
smage
02-10-07, 12:41 PM Note: Wiz 4 / Sor/Beg 1 / UM 10 with Practiced Spellcaster still dumps one odd spellcasting bump to Sorcerer/Beguiler.

Also, keep in mind that while you can steal up to 9th level spells through Master Spellthief, you can only use up to 1st level stolen spells due to your low reserve from only having 1 Spellthief level. You just have to decide whether being able to nix spellcaster's highest level spells is worth a loss of 1 level of Beguiler spellcasting.
FriendlyFrog
02-10-07, 01:36 PM You can use Illumian with the Kray sigil to avoid having to progress your spontaneous casting with one of those UM levels that progresses only the other class.

Spells as a level 19 Wizard with a caster level of 24 and spells as a level 8 Beguiler with caster level of 18 and all the other goodies from Ultimate magus and Int synergy is what I think makes the PrC viable, otherwise I don't like it that much.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lotus Crane 01-31-07, 05:46 PM	I know that the standard Ultimate Magus build to gain 9th level wizard spells pre-epic is wizard 4/sorcerer 1/UM 10/arcane PrC (advancing wizard) 5, by using Practiced Spellcaster (and optionally, an Illumian ability) to inflate sorcerer caster level above wizard caster level, so that at 1st, 4th, and 7th level of UM, you can choose to advance your wizard spellcasting progression. I was wondering though, what do you think about beguiler 1/spellthief 1/wizard 3/UM 10/arcane PrC (advancing wizard) 5, taking the Master Spellthief feat at 6th character level (1st UM level), which if I'm reading correctly, would still allow you to advance wizard instead of sorcerer spellcasting progression at 1st, 4th, and 7th level of UM, since Master Spellthief makes the caster level for all of your arcane spells the same? This build still provides 9th level wizard spells by 19th character level, which is the same as the standard build (the Illumian ability makes this possible by 18th IIRC, but that restricts you to that race). It has additional benefits over the standard wizard 4/sorcerer 1 entry in that you have a few more hit points, a lot more skill points (assume you take beguiler or spellthief at 1st instead of wizard), less MAD (both classes' spells work off of Int), the ability to cast even wizard spells in light armor, and the ability to conserve magic by stealing spells occasionally. What do you think of this idea? What race and feats (besides the required Master Spellthief) would you use? Did somebody else beat me to this punch? Hey, this is my first post to the CO boards, so maybe I have no idea what I'm doing! ^_^;
Timespike 01-31-07, 06:12 PM	I like your thinking on this one. What were you thinking for a capstone PrC? My personal inclinations would be Unseen Seer or Abjurant Champion. I don't see any reason why Illumian wouldn't work. Although if you want, you could go Elf; the elven first-level racial substitution level for wizard would be good. The extra weapon proficiencies would be as nice as they always are, too. Edit: Spellwarp Sniper would be an excellent choice too.
Lotus Crane 01-31-07, 11:38 PM	Unseen Seer seems the logical choice, considering how it ties in nicely with the beguiler and spellthief abilities from the beginning of the career, and makes this character a strong secondary skill-monkey for the party. I think Abjurant Champion might actually be a mistake, because the build up to 15th level already has terrible hit points and BAB; there's no way to salvage a viable gish out of this. Illumian isn't really necessary because the caster level-increasing sigil is limited by HD the same way Practiced Spellcaster is, which is obviated by the benefits of Master Spellthief. The Illumian trick is really only effective for the standard wizard 4/sorcerer 1 entry. Human is an obvious choice (as always), but you're right, elf (especially grey) works well too, especially considering that racial substitution you mentioned. One of the requirements for UM is any metamagic feat, and the PrC also grants two bonus metamagic feats. Which ones would be your first picks?
Timespike 02-10-07, 12:48 AM	Unseen Seer seems the logical choice, considering how it ties in nicely with the beguiler and spellthief abilities from the beginning of the career, and makes this character a strong secondary skill-monkey for the party. I think Abjurant Champion might actually be a mistake, because the build up to 15th level already has terrible hit points and BAB; there's no way to salvage a viable gish out of this. Illumian isn't really necessary because the caster level-increasing sigil is limited by HD the same way Practiced Spellcaster is, which is obviated by the benefits of Master Spellthief. The Illumian trick is really only effective for the standard wizard 4/sorcerer 1 entry. Human is an obvious choice (as always), but you're right, elf (especially grey) works well too, especially considering that racial substitution you mentioned. One of the requirements for UM is any metamagic feat, and the PrC also grants two bonus metamagic feats. Which ones would be your first picks? I personally like Deceptive Spell (from Cityscape) and Quicken Spell for this kind of caster. Being able to get spells off fast or without tipping your hand seem like tricks you'd want to have as this type of caster. For the third one, I'd say Silent Spell. As far as non-metamagic feats go, I'd personally look into mobile spellcasting and extraordinary concentration (both from Complete Advenurer). And as far as equipment selection goes, if you go the elf route, strap on a mithral breastplate and pick up a longsword, and wear a dagger at your belt on the other side, even if it never gets used. Plate the breastplate with a thin layer of something else, like bronze, so it doesn't look so lightweight; you want your enemy to think you're a swordsman until it's too late and burn a round and a spell or ability trying to overcome your (VERY high) will save at the beginning of the fight. A little mundane deception can sometimes be enough to buy you a "second surprise round" where your enemy is still off-balance. Get as much "covert ops" gear as you can lay your hands on. Wand bracers (from dungeonscape), a belt of many pockets (complete arcane) stuffed with alchemical gear and mundane equipment from the arms & equipment guide, gloves of the master strategist (ghostwalk), a gnome steambow (arms & equipment guide), etc. Oh, and one other race option you may want to consider: Changeling. EDIT: Some other things you may want to look into are listed below: Skill tricks (Complete Scoundrel) In particular Conceal Spellcasting, Magical Appraisal, and False Theurgy would all be useful to this kind of character. Alchemical Weapon Capsules (Complete Adventurer) Alchemist Sling Bullets (Arms & Equipment guide)
smage 02-10-07, 12:41 PM	Note: Wiz 4 / Sor/Beg 1 / UM 10 with Practiced Spellcaster still dumps one odd spellcasting bump to Sorcerer/Beguiler. Also, keep in mind that while you can steal up to 9th level spells through Master Spellthief, you can only use up to 1st level stolen spells due to your low reserve from only having 1 Spellthief level. You just have to decide whether being able to nix spellcaster's highest level spells is worth a loss of 1 level of Beguiler spellcasting.
FriendlyFrog 02-10-07, 01:36 PM	You can use Illumian with the Kray sigil to avoid having to progress your spontaneous casting with one of those UM levels that progresses only the other class. Spells as a level 19 Wizard with a caster level of 24 and spells as a level 8 Beguiler with caster level of 18 and all the other goodies from Ultimate magus and Int synergy is what I think makes the PrC viable, otherwise I don't like it that much.