Beguiler DPS possible? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beguiler DPS possible? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shallak
02-17-07, 12:33 AM Hi everyone,

This is my first post on this forums, so please dont shoot me down if something is missing ;)

I am going to join a game that has already started. The game is in faerun in ancien Netheril. Everybody is an arcane spellcaster in some way (most are full Wiz/Sorc). We have a duskblade to be the melee man. We have a Wiz and a Sorcerer/Wiz going for Ultimate Magus.

The only thing I see missing in the group is a Thief-like spellcaster that can handle trap. I saw the Beguiler class in PHBII and pretty much liked it, but the only problem is the total lack of fightning possibility. I am looking for a way to, at least, be able to provide some damage to the team when I cannot do any crowd control.

Of course my first thought was to go for wands (UMD help). But since we're lvl 5 Characters, I start with only 9,000 gp and have trouble spending them right.

I havent decided which race to go for, but human was my first choice.

Thus, could any of you genius help me fill the gap in my character? Optimize him so he doesnt suck combat-wise. Maybe my solution lay in the proper selection of feats?

We are allowed any official wotc books (Fearun, Complete, basics) no psionics.

Thanks for any help you can provide. (I'm open to suggestion, even different class/race)
Tektonik
02-17-07, 12:45 AM Look at the shadow craft mage handbook it is currently ont he first page.
doink1212
02-17-07, 12:53 AM I really like the Beguiler class. That sounds like a fun campaign. Might I recommend if you can get your hands on these books.

PHB II (obviously you have that)
Complete Arcane
Complete Mage

Check out the controller archetype. Instead of provided the brute force. The brute force will work for you. At lvl 6 you can take first lvl in the Mindbender Prestige Class. They are really fun to play, and roleplay. All you need to do is get some DM cooperation and the right items.

I dont have any books in front of me, but you should be able to afford something like a wand of suggestion and a meta magic rod. If you want an interesting added punch. Grab a Spell storing rapier. This is very useful if have those fun spells like hold person, deep slumber, and personally I think some getting stabbed and then inflicted with Tasha's hideous laughter is great.

Remember in melee combat generally a fighter's greatest weakness is will saves. Enchantment spells will give you a bang for you buck.

Recap
Wand of Suggestion or Charm
Metamagic Rod (Whatever tickles your fancy)
Spellstoring Weapon (I dont know if it works on ranged weapons, if so all the power to you.)

Make sure you read through the class abilities carefully because I believe the beguilers do have a decent amount of fighting potential to them... especially if you multiclassed a little with a rogue.

Bona Fortuna
icedrake
02-17-07, 02:52 AM Beguilers are not really a DPS class. They are a hybrid skills monkey/wizard specialist in Enchantment and Illusion. If you want to go for a truly damage focused character, you would be bested served with a rogue/wizard with Abled-Learner from Races of Destiny to keep up Disable Device ans Search. You'd then want to multiclass into Unseen Seer from Complete Mage, Arcane Trickster from the DMG and the Ray Specialist from Complete Scoundrel. You get tons of sneak attack damage, get a bunch of ray spells and then go to town. There would be a number of reserve feats you'd want to check out from CMage, since a number of them produce reuseable touch attacks that don't cost you spell slots.

You might want to go rogue/sorc for a change of pace since the majority of your party are wizards. You'd get more spells per day and could focus on your schicks while the others played the more mutlipurpose roles.

A very strange character combination that many people like includes the Bard, the Sublime Cord from Complete Arcane and some other Prcs I'm not really familiar with. Do some searching around for it, but its got a very interesting build to it that has the capacity to produce a crap ton of damage while serving as a more skill focused character, though not a trap finder.
DaveTheMagicWeasel
02-17-07, 07:09 AM In addition to teh Shadowcraft Mage builds, which don't really take of until a higher level than you're at (though hen they do, they're into the stratosphere) there are a number of ways of adding spells to your list:

Sand Shaper (Sandstorm)
Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine)
Exalted Arcanist (BoED)

What I might consider is to just pick up one of these options, and use that to power a Reserve feat (Complete Mage) of your choice. Acid Splatter is decent, then you've got something to fall back on against the mind-affecting imune things that a Beguiler isn't great at dealing with.

Depending on how attached to the Beguiler class abilities you are, some sort of Theurge build could be interesting. Arcane Hierophant (Races of teh Wild) using Obtain Familiar, or a Beguiler / Archivist / Mystic Theurge would have good Int synergy and provide you with the extyra options you want, as well as some healing for what I imagine is a pretty fragile party.
Iry
02-17-07, 07:11 AM The Shadowcraft Mage is probably going to be your biggest bang for the buck, DPS and Control wise. However, allow me to offer you a very quirky alternative solution. Beguiler/Combat Trapsmith.

Yes, Combat Trapsmith can't optimize Beguiler, but... Beguiler brings a lot to the table for the Combat Trapsmith! Imagine a master trapbuilder covering the rest of the Magi's backs, weaving invisibilities and other mild deceptions while he lays down status effects and endless 5d6 explosions.

Talk to your DM about a custom feat, however. Something along the lines of 'Friendly Trapcrafter' that specifically allows your 'allies' to avoid triggering your Traps because you've taught them how to walk around them and what to be wary of.
Blue23
02-17-07, 07:35 AM I'm in an FR game right now, and the Beguiler is one of the most combat effective characters we have, in addition to the non-combat abilities they have. Combat is a lot more then DPS.

She's also got "combat related" abilities, such as suggestion allowing us to set an ambush for opponents if we can capture one on the sly. We've got a pure sorcerer and a gish as our other two arcanists - we also have a divine archer, a high-str monk, and an archivist.

I'd say if you want to go Beguiler, play to it's strengths instead of trying to make it into a blastermage.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)
Kurama Youko
02-17-07, 08:51 AM Have you taken a good look at the beguilers spell list? I mean, WHELM for all intensive purposes is a damage dealing spell barring the enemy isnt immune to mind effecting spells. There is also the fact that you could use your advance learning to add power pain at low levels and as you gain higher levels and the shadow conjuration or evocation spells.

Anyway, to answer the question.

The 12 or so Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium add one unique spell per spell level depending on the bloodline feat you take. I would suggest the fire bloodline for you since your worried about damage dealing spells. Then you could grab a reserve feat from complete mage and have at it.
Shallak
02-17-07, 01:30 PM Have you taken a good look at the beguilers spell list? I mean, WHELM for all intensive purposes is a damage dealing spell barring the enemy isnt immune to mind effecting spells. There is also the fact that you could use your advance learning to add power pain at low levels and as you gain higher levels and the shadow conjuration or evocation spells.

Anyway, to answer the question.

The 12 or so Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium add one unique spell per spell level depending on the bloodline feat you take. I would suggest the fire bloodline for you since your worried about damage dealing spells. Then you could grab a reserve feat from complete mage and have at it.

Kurama, you are a genius!

I never asked for a way to equal or surpass pure damage dealer, only a way to cause damage to mind-immune ennemy. Fire bloodline and Fiery Burst allow me to cast an unlimited amount of fire damage which is perfect! The damage is not impressive, but yet equal to Whelm (which only deal nonlethal damage and has a save that cancel all damage).

I dont have the Shadow Craft Mage Handbook, so I unfortunately have no info on the class. So Bloodline/Reserve is the best line for me atm.

Although, if any of you have more suggestion or have ideas about how to make Fiery blast (or any other combination) even more effective, please do so.

Altough, I would like to say, our group really need someone to detect trap, open locks, etc... (skill monkey), that's why the Beguiler appeal me so much with everything he can do, I only needed a little something for damage. It doesnt need to be impressive.

I have a question though, is there any sort of combination possible of Fiery Burst and Pyrotechnic?....

Thanks a lot for all the help!
soulslost
02-17-07, 02:18 PM the shadowcraft mage handbook is on the optimization boards......and the book its from is races of stone!
Caelic
02-17-07, 02:20 PM If you can, I'd snag a force spell instead and take Needle of Force as your reserve feat. It doesn't do quite as much damage, but it's force damage, which is nice against incorporeal foes and more generally useful than fire.
Shallak
02-17-07, 02:52 PM Nevermind, just found it :-)

And for the force damage, I didnt see anything that would give me the required spell for all 9 level, so fiery burst is still the best atm.
Sithobi1
02-17-07, 03:26 PM Just use Heighten. Beguiler already has Mage Armor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shallak 02-17-07, 12:33 AM	Hi everyone, This is my first post on this forums, so please dont shoot me down if something is missing ;) I am going to join a game that has already started. The game is in faerun in ancien Netheril. Everybody is an arcane spellcaster in some way (most are full Wiz/Sorc). We have a duskblade to be the melee man. We have a Wiz and a Sorcerer/Wiz going for Ultimate Magus. The only thing I see missing in the group is a Thief-like spellcaster that can handle trap. I saw the Beguiler class in PHBII and pretty much liked it, but the only problem is the total lack of fightning possibility. I am looking for a way to, at least, be able to provide some damage to the team when I cannot do any crowd control. Of course my first thought was to go for wands (UMD help). But since we're lvl 5 Characters, I start with only 9,000 gp and have trouble spending them right. I havent decided which race to go for, but human was my first choice. Thus, could any of you genius help me fill the gap in my character? Optimize him so he doesnt suck combat-wise. Maybe my solution lay in the proper selection of feats? We are allowed any official wotc books (Fearun, Complete, basics) no psionics. Thanks for any help you can provide. (I'm open to suggestion, even different class/race)
Tektonik 02-17-07, 12:45 AM	Look at the shadow craft mage handbook it is currently ont he first page.
doink1212 02-17-07, 12:53 AM	I really like the Beguiler class. That sounds like a fun campaign. Might I recommend if you can get your hands on these books. PHB II (obviously you have that) Complete Arcane Complete Mage Check out the controller archetype. Instead of provided the brute force. The brute force will work for you. At lvl 6 you can take first lvl in the Mindbender Prestige Class. They are really fun to play, and roleplay. All you need to do is get some DM cooperation and the right items. I dont have any books in front of me, but you should be able to afford something like a wand of suggestion and a meta magic rod. If you want an interesting added punch. Grab a Spell storing rapier. This is very useful if have those fun spells like hold person, deep slumber, and personally I think some getting stabbed and then inflicted with Tasha's hideous laughter is great. Remember in melee combat generally a fighter's greatest weakness is will saves. Enchantment spells will give you a bang for you buck. Recap Wand of Suggestion or Charm Metamagic Rod (Whatever tickles your fancy) Spellstoring Weapon (I dont know if it works on ranged weapons, if so all the power to you.) Make sure you read through the class abilities carefully because I believe the beguilers do have a decent amount of fighting potential to them... especially if you multiclassed a little with a rogue. Bona Fortuna
icedrake 02-17-07, 02:52 AM	Beguilers are not really a DPS class. They are a hybrid skills monkey/wizard specialist in Enchantment and Illusion. If you want to go for a truly damage focused character, you would be bested served with a rogue/wizard with Abled-Learner from Races of Destiny to keep up Disable Device ans Search. You'd then want to multiclass into Unseen Seer from Complete Mage, Arcane Trickster from the DMG and the Ray Specialist from Complete Scoundrel. You get tons of sneak attack damage, get a bunch of ray spells and then go to town. There would be a number of reserve feats you'd want to check out from CMage, since a number of them produce reuseable touch attacks that don't cost you spell slots. You might want to go rogue/sorc for a change of pace since the majority of your party are wizards. You'd get more spells per day and could focus on your schicks while the others played the more mutlipurpose roles. A very strange character combination that many people like includes the Bard, the Sublime Cord from Complete Arcane and some other Prcs I'm not really familiar with. Do some searching around for it, but its got a very interesting build to it that has the capacity to produce a crap ton of damage while serving as a more skill focused character, though not a trap finder.
DaveTheMagicWeasel 02-17-07, 07:09 AM	In addition to teh Shadowcraft Mage builds, which don't really take of until a higher level than you're at (though hen they do, they're into the stratosphere) there are a number of ways of adding spells to your list: Sand Shaper (Sandstorm) Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine) Exalted Arcanist (BoED) What I might consider is to just pick up one of these options, and use that to power a Reserve feat (Complete Mage) of your choice. Acid Splatter is decent, then you've got something to fall back on against the mind-affecting imune things that a Beguiler isn't great at dealing with. Depending on how attached to the Beguiler class abilities you are, some sort of Theurge build could be interesting. Arcane Hierophant (Races of teh Wild) using Obtain Familiar, or a Beguiler / Archivist / Mystic Theurge would have good Int synergy and provide you with the extyra options you want, as well as some healing for what I imagine is a pretty fragile party.
Iry 02-17-07, 07:11 AM	The Shadowcraft Mage is probably going to be your biggest bang for the buck, DPS and Control wise. However, allow me to offer you a very quirky alternative solution. Beguiler/Combat Trapsmith. Yes, Combat Trapsmith can't optimize Beguiler, but... Beguiler brings a lot to the table for the Combat Trapsmith! Imagine a master trapbuilder covering the rest of the Magi's backs, weaving invisibilities and other mild deceptions while he lays down status effects and endless 5d6 explosions. Talk to your DM about a custom feat, however. Something along the lines of 'Friendly Trapcrafter' that specifically allows your 'allies' to avoid triggering your Traps because you've taught them how to walk around them and what to be wary of.
Blue23 02-17-07, 07:35 AM	I'm in an FR game right now, and the Beguiler is one of the most combat effective characters we have, in addition to the non-combat abilities they have. Combat is a lot more then DPS. She's also got "combat related" abilities, such as suggestion allowing us to set an ambush for opponents if we can capture one on the sly. We've got a pure sorcerer and a gish as our other two arcanists - we also have a divine archer, a high-str monk, and an archivist. I'd say if you want to go Beguiler, play to it's strengths instead of trying to make it into a blastermage. Cheers, =Blue(23)
Kurama Youko 02-17-07, 08:51 AM	Have you taken a good look at the beguilers spell list? I mean, WHELM for all intensive purposes is a damage dealing spell barring the enemy isnt immune to mind effecting spells. There is also the fact that you could use your advance learning to add power pain at low levels and as you gain higher levels and the shadow conjuration or evocation spells. Anyway, to answer the question. The 12 or so Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium add one unique spell per spell level depending on the bloodline feat you take. I would suggest the fire bloodline for you since your worried about damage dealing spells. Then you could grab a reserve feat from complete mage and have at it.
Shallak 02-17-07, 01:30 PM	Have you taken a good look at the beguilers spell list? I mean, WHELM for all intensive purposes is a damage dealing spell barring the enemy isnt immune to mind effecting spells. There is also the fact that you could use your advance learning to add power pain at low levels and as you gain higher levels and the shadow conjuration or evocation spells. Anyway, to answer the question. The 12 or so Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium add one unique spell per spell level depending on the bloodline feat you take. I would suggest the fire bloodline for you since your worried about damage dealing spells. Then you could grab a reserve feat from complete mage and have at it. Kurama, you are a genius! I never asked for a way to equal or surpass pure damage dealer, only a way to cause damage to mind-immune ennemy. Fire bloodline and Fiery Burst allow me to cast an unlimited amount of fire damage which is perfect! The damage is not impressive, but yet equal to Whelm (which only deal nonlethal damage and has a save that cancel all damage). I dont have the Shadow Craft Mage Handbook, so I unfortunately have no info on the class. So Bloodline/Reserve is the best line for me atm. Although, if any of you have more suggestion or have ideas about how to make Fiery blast (or any other combination) even more effective, please do so. Altough, I would like to say, our group really need someone to detect trap, open locks, etc... (skill monkey), that's why the Beguiler appeal me so much with everything he can do, I only needed a little something for damage. It doesnt need to be impressive. I have a question though, is there any sort of combination possible of Fiery Burst and Pyrotechnic?.... Thanks a lot for all the help!
soulslost 02-17-07, 02:18 PM	the shadowcraft mage handbook is on the optimization boards......and the book its from is races of stone!
Caelic 02-17-07, 02:20 PM	If you can, I'd snag a force spell instead and take Needle of Force as your reserve feat. It doesn't do quite as much damage, but it's force damage, which is nice against incorporeal foes and more generally useful than fire.
Shallak 02-17-07, 02:52 PM	Nevermind, just found it :-) And for the force damage, I didnt see anything that would give me the required spell for all 9 level, so fiery burst is still the best atm.
Sithobi1 02-17-07, 03:26 PM	Just use Heighten. Beguiler already has Mage Armor.