Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mightyix 01-18-07, 04:36 PM	Alright folks, a friend of mine has asked me to join a campaign of his now that I'm living closer to him. It's a campaign of mostly newer players (vs. my regular game of very experienced folks). It's a campaign that combines a fair amount of roleplay with a moderate number of combat encounters. I've had an idea for a beguiller build for a while, crossing it with a small dip into warlock for some consistent damage capability and some flexibility. I THOUGHT there was a warlock/arcane caster prestige class in Comp Mage, but I don't have the book with me. Here's my limitations and criteria for the character: 1) The party has no skill character, and no good public 'face'. 2) They have some problems with the number of encounters per day that they can handle - probably due to the build of the other characters and their experience. Whatever I put together has to be able to extend their combat capability somehow, either by preventing damage (beguiller), or by adding to the damage output (warlock), or by some other means. 3) They're newer players and I can't show up throwing a zillion new rules mechanics at them, or a complex blend of prestige classes and esoteric rulings, and need to keep the number of sourcebooks limited. 4) It's an Ebberon campaign, and I'll be starting at lv. 9 5) I don't want to lose out on 9th level spells (unless you can provide me a good reason to) 6) I want to play a beguiller based character, but I'm flexible with the second class. I'd LIKE to try multiclassing with warlock, but am open to other builds that serve to diversify and expand my character ability. (Beguiller doesn't gish well, unfortunately) 7) PHB, PHB II, Complete books, and Ebberon books only Any suggestions you've got would be greatly appreciated. Please include sourcebook with any feats if you can. Thanks in advance!
Todd 01-19-07, 12:49 PM	The dual progression class is Eldritch Theurge ... but the problem is that it requires you to cast 2nd level spells & have a 2d6 blast, i.e. Beguiler 4 / Warlock 3 as a lead-in. That of course means no 9th level spells without resorting to tricks that might not fit in with an inexperienced party. Eldritch Disciple, the Cleric / Warlock PrC is much easier to qualify for, Cleric 4 / Warlock 1 will do it. Why not go that way, take Zen Archery (so you can boost int for skills) and the Kobold domain or something else that grants trapfinding or the illusionary aspect of the beguiler that you like.
mightyix 01-19-07, 01:10 PM	I got home and got to my books and after a little reading up, I came to the conclusion that I'll be satisfied with the Eldritch Theurge (Beguiller/Warlock) as a build. I know that I lose 9th level spells, but I think it will be something that I'll have fun with. Now, can anyone help me with feats, evocations, and an endgame that can get me through this. Right now the build is Beg 4/War 3/Eldritch Theurge 10/????? Practiced Spellcaster for the Beguiller is a no brainer, but what next?
hobbit_killer 01-19-07, 01:12 PM	Well the knee jerk reaction to a beguiler post is Shadowcraft Mage out of Races of Stone. It will get you all the offensive capability you need. You'd need to be gnome or take the adaptation that allows you to be part of a cabal. Possibly dedicated to the Shadow? Might not be a good idea in a primarily good party. Personally I think the Shadowcraft Mage, while very powerful, takes the thinking out of the beguiler. Consider going straight beguiler without multiclassing. All of the offensive capability you need could be achieved through advanced learning. At 3rd power word pain from Dragon Magic will get you a lot of mileage At 7th Ray of Dizziness from Spell Compendium will stop people in their tracks and allow others to beat up on them. At 11, Shadow Evocation will get you what you need if you choose to blast and more importantly, nets you Sonorous Hum to maintain concentration on illusions while you do something else. At 15th, you could do Greater Heroism is if you need the buff, Solipsism for an virtual insta kill or my favorite (and its core) simulacrum. Just create something with fast healing or regen so you don't have to pay to heal it. At 19 you can get Shades for versatility or Programmed Amnesia (or Ice Assassin if you want to say Game Over) You can 'virtually multiclass' with your charm and dominate spells as well. Wait until something gets thrown at you that you would liek to have under your control and then grab it with diplomacy, charm, or dominate, or a combination of all.
mightyix 01-19-07, 02:03 PM	I'd really rather stick to the warlock/beguiller combo than go straight beguiller or get limited benefits from 3 levels of shadowcraft mage starting at lv. 18. (it makes no sense to postpone Eldritch Theurge for Shadowcraft Mage) I also think that since "Races of Stone" isn't one of the "Complete" books, that I wouldn't be able to use it anyway. Thanks for the suggestions though.
Xaktsaroth 01-19-07, 02:25 PM	Actually, Beguiler 4/Warlock 3/Eldritch Theurge 10/Beguiler +4 isn't that bad, those last 3 Beguiler levels give you: 6 + Int skill points a level. A free metamagic feat. And, Advanced learning, which is quite nice, as your Beguiler level will be nice and high, and you can grab a higher level spell. If you looking for a list of 3 level full advancing, the only 2 I can think of a Ruather(Races of Wild) and Wayfinder Guide(CA).
Alvarius 01-19-07, 09:51 PM	I don't have My books in front of Me right now, but what about playing this character as a Warforged? the composite plating won't mess with your spellcasting as a beguiler and you can take 3 levels in the Reforged PrC to finish it off...As a party face, the Reforged always works well, in my opinion
runestar 01-19-07, 10:00 PM	And the mithral breastplate body plating is nice too...:P
mightyix 01-20-07, 01:30 PM	The build is kinda feat short, so I don't know that a warforged is the best choice of race. Humans give me that extra skill point every level too. I could really use some help with the feat and invocation selection. That should help me better figure out where I want to be racially, too.
nighttree 01-20-07, 09:48 PM	One thing I did (need DM permission) was to trade out some of the very "Warlock" abilities (DR etc....) of the Eldritch Theurge, for some of the class abilities of the Beguiler. That way I maintained some of the "cloaked casting" and other features of the Beguiler.
Vapthorne 01-20-07, 10:57 PM	Here's an idea I had for a Beguiler with some combat punch. I'd try to go Beguiler x / Sorcerer 1, and take the Heritage feats from the Planar Handbook. All you need is Fiendish Sorcerer Heritage and Fiendish Sorcerer's Howl. The result is you get to sacrifice a spell for a supernatural sonic-attack with a 30-foot cone and the damage is 2d6 per spell level. That's a pretty nifty attack, considering the number of spells per day the Beguiler gets. The spells you select as a sorcerer are not important. Personally, I'd go for spells without a somatic component since you'll be armor. True Casting (from Complete Mage) and Benign Transposition (Spell Comp.) are good one. But, since you said you want to limit your source books, then maybe True Strike and Identify. Feel free to choose what you want. Who knows, maybe you can convince your DM to let you take the fiendish heritage feats without being a sorcerer. Have fun.
doink1212 01-20-07, 11:18 PM	How about doing it simple? lvl 6 Beguiler / Lvl 3 Mindbender (Complete Arcane) If you check out the Complete mage description of a controller you'll get an idea of a character build. This character will enable you to charm a cleric to help you heal your friends. "Convince" a fighter that much plunder will come if he comes along on the journey. Not to mention giving the others in the group a good lesson in skillful magic usage. Id recommend looking at the Fey Heritage feats in the complete mage. They are very useful for a beguiler and Fey Heritage = Arcane Defense (enchantment) [as described in controller section] Enjoy
Rhonin the Big 01-20-07, 11:29 PM	I do not suggest the Eldritch Theurge for a few good reasons. MADness is a horrible disease which forces your character to be dependant on more than one mental stat, the only cure is a combination of intelligence & charisma synergy which you cant get. 7 of your levels are spend on qualifying for Eldritch Theurge, leaving you with only 3 levels to cure your MAD. You also lose out on many of the beguiler's signature skills when taking ET. In short just go one or the other. Warlock - When choosing invocations remember one profane rule: Leave the saving for the eldritch blast. My favorite essences are Vitrolic Blast, Noxious Blast (fort save or be nauseated for 1 minute? damn!), Bewildering Blast to rape low will saves and Brimstone Blast to rape low reflex saves as well as kill when combined with Noxious Blast. For feats ability focus (eb) is obvious, you could combine malign spell focus with violate spell-like ability for another +4 to the save DC and deal half vile damage. A good combo is using that high Use Magic Device check to deliver an eldritch blast via hideous blow through a Wand of Flame Blade with Fiendish Flames up.
mightyix 01-22-07, 07:11 PM	I understand the MAD disease. I understand why I wouldn't want to play this build if I wanted an optimized character. What I'm asking for is help optimizing a sub-optimal design. Isn't that what we're here for? Turning even the lowliest character with the most restrictive bookset into the best optimized character they can be?
Vapthorne 01-23-07, 02:53 PM	I understand the MAD disease. I understand why I wouldn't want to play this build if I wanted an optimized character. What I'm asking for is help optimizing a sub-optimal design. Isn't that what we're here for? Turning even the lowliest character with the most restrictive bookset into the best optimized character they can be? I'll give you some more of my thoughts for a Beguiler/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple. There are several areas that should be given thought. Thinking about the abilities scores, you're really not as MAD as you appear. You seem to be in the same boat as every other single stat spellcaster. - INT is important for the Beguiler's spellcasting and skillpoints. - DEX is important for AC and the Warlock's attack bonus. - CON is tertiary because you can always use the HP. - CHA, is meh, Warlocks need it for their invocation's DC but it's not required to be high. And, if you avoid any invocations that rely on a DC then it's moot. - WIS and STR are dump stats **** Skill is where you'll be hurting, because Warlocks and ET only get 2+int. Plus most of the Beguiler's skill are cross-class for the Warlock/ET. You just have to remember that you can't do it all and you need to pick your focus. Concentration is a must. Unless you plan on taking Able Learner (from Races of Destiny), I'd avoid the trap-finding skills. If you need to find traps, then I'd just stick with Search and Disable Device. For locks: I think Beguilers know Knock (but not sure) and the Warlock's Virtrillic blast is useful for lock. For traps, the warlock's detect magic at will might spot any magical traps. If you want to be the party's face then you should keep your Bluff/Diplomancy/Sense Motive. Beguiling Influence is great in this case. [If you have Complete Scoundrel, then the skill trick "Social Recovery" is great since Diplomacy is a cross-class for Warlocks) I don't know what you're thoughts on being a knowledge-buff is, or how useful it is in-game. But, I'd keep enough knowledge skills to qualify for ET. Skills you might do without. Spellcraft; honestly, I'm not sure how practically useful this is for a warlock (or if it's applicable for Beguilers' case)... but think about if you'll really need it. And, I'm going to go against the Warlock SOP and suggest to not take any ranks in UMD. If you're not going to take 4 levels in warlock, then it's a waste of time. Unless you plan on using any offensive wizard-only wand with, then I'd just get enough ranks to be able to take 10 using wands. **** With Invocations, I've mentioned that Beguiling Influence and Virtrillic Blast are useful. Other sure bets are Eldritch Chain, Fell Flight, and Eldritch Spear (if you want the range). Chilling Tentacles is neat. Invocations I'd avoid are ones that duplicate the effects of your beguiler spells (like Charm, Walk Unseen, etc). You can still take the Invocation that require DC saves if you have a decent charisma; Beguilers have Eagle Splendor, and that could give you DC a decent boast if needed. **** Feats: I don't know exactly besides the safe bets for Beguilers and Warlocks in general.
mightyix 01-23-07, 04:12 PM	I'm rolling stats unfortunately, so I'm not sure where I'll end up with Dump Stats. The DM seems to be very friendly on the dice rolling though, so I don't think I'll be too bad off. This is sort of what I was thinking if I was going with a 28 point buy: Str: 10 Dex: 12 Con: 12 Int: 16 Wis: 10 Cha: 14 For skills, and as a human, that means that I've got 6 skill points per level for Warlock/ET and 10 skill points per level for Beguiller. Until at least level 7, I'm going to be maxing out Concentration, Knowledge: Planes and Arcana, UMD, and Intimidation. Beguiller will probably be running double points on Diplomacy and Sense Motive where applicable, and I need to crunch 5 ranks in spellcraft in there someplace. I think I've figured out a starting feat progression as well: H) Abberant Dragonmark: Burning Hands 1) Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiller 3) Mighty Dragonmark (+2 caster level, +1 Save DC) 6) Lesser Abberant Dragonmark: Vampiric Touch 9) Greater Abberant Dragonmark: Slay Living Caster level for dragonmarks will be 7+1/2 char level. I don't have any idea what to do with feats beyond that point, though. For Invocations - I love chilling tentacles, like eldritch spear, and honestly like the walk unseen even though I've got invisibility on the beguiller list. Having an infinite number of uses of it is AMAZING, especially for delivering some of the touch abilities of all of my classes/feats. I'm still looking for some insight on how to finish the class and for the lv 12+ feats. I'm also open to other feat progressions than the one I've listed.
NineInchNall 01-23-07, 04:19 PM	6) I want to play a beguiller based character, but I'm flexible with the second class. I'd LIKE to try multiclassing with warlock, but am open to other builds that serve to diversify and expand my character ability. (Beguiller doesn't gish well, unfortunately) I just wanted to dispel this little notion. With great defensive spells (e.g., displacement & mirror image) and a few offensive buffs (e.g., haste) the Beguiler can gish quite well, especially due to his armored casting ability. It just takes a little work. Specifically, it takes Tome of Battle and Races of Stone. :D Title: The Phoenix's Shadow Category: Gish (Caster Focused) Race: Gnome (rock gnome) Class Composition: Warblade 1/Bard 4/Fighter 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Sublime Chord 1/Shadowcraft Mage 4 Build Stub: Warblade 1/Bard 4/Fighter 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 4/Sublime Chord 1/Shadowcraft Mage 4/Jade Phoenix Mage +5 Note: If your DM uses CustServ's interpretation (which also happens to be mine) of the Crusader recovery mechanic, then you'd be better off using Crusader rather than Warblade. Build Progression: Level Class Feat(s) 1 Warblade 1 Martial Study (Shadow Hand: Clinging Shadow Strike) 2 Bard 1 3 Bard 2 Spell Focus (illusion) 4 Bard 3 5 Bard 4 6 Fighter 1 Shadow Blade, (Martial Stance: Island of Blades) 7 JPM 1 8 JPM 2 9 JPM 3 Earth Sense 10 JPM 4 11 Sublime Chord 1 12 ScM 1 Heighten Spell 13 ScM 2 14 ScM 3 15 ScM 4 Earth Spell 16 JPM 5 17 JPM 6 18 JPM 7 Shadow Trickster 19 JPM 8 20 JPM 9 Feats: ECL) Feat(s) 1) Martial Study (Shadow Hand: Clinging Shadow Strike) 3) Spell Focus (illusion) 6) Shadow Blade, (Martial Stance: Island of Blades) 9) Earth Sense 12) Heighten Spell 15) Earth Spell 18) Shadow Trickster Notable Class Abilities & Build Features: Epic ready with both +16 BAB and 9th level Sublime Chord spells (caster level 16). Initiator level 15, granting access to an 8th level maneuver of the Desert Wind or Devoted Spirit schools. All illusions are automatically Extended. Constant 35% miss chance (concealment) when not in sunlight - this effect does allow for Hide checks. Shadow Illusion - see the Shadowcraft Mage Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=655556) for more information on the importance of this ability. Dex to damage with Shadow Hand weapons (Shadow Blade) Shadow Trickster gives +2 to the save DCs of your illusions. Not a single Warblade or Jade Phoenix Mage maneuver or stance is specifically needed by the build, so you are free to develop your own fighting style. Once per encounter you can Quicken a spell for free. Once per encounter you can Empower a spell for free. You essentially gain two new stances: Mystic Phoenix Stance: increased caster level, +2 AC, and DR X/evil. Firebird Stance: fire resistance, increased caster level for fire spells, and an aura of fire. You can make all Knowledge checks as if trained and get a +2 on all Knowledge checks. Arcane Wrath - basically Arcane Strike. You end up a sneaky blaster/mind-controller/summoner who can hardly ever be hit and can heal himself during battle (Devoted Spirit maneuvers and stances).
mightyix 01-23-07, 04:56 PM	Tome of Battle isn't available as a resource. I've got Core, Core II, Ebberon books, and Complete books. I MIGHT have the Races books available to me, but I'm not sure.