Benchmarks for build comparisons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Benchmarks for build comparisons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
iconoplast
01-12-07, 06:39 PM I'm moving this from the Comparison of Power Level discussion, just because while comparing builds against each other is interesting, I find that your effectiveness at the table is not measured by how easily you could kill your party members, but by how easily you prevent them from being killed. The two often correlate, but I think it might be interesting to optimize for the latter.

So, I have two vague ideas for how to measure builds. The first is by how well they meet certain abstract goals.

I think the benchmark levels should probably be around 5, 10, 15, 20. However, I think making the levels odd will highlight the importance of full caster progression, and getting crucial spells as soon as they're available.

Therefore, levels 5, 9, 13, and 17 seem like good places to measure efficiency.

1) Able to occupy X number of monsters Y for Z rounds (to allow the party to escape). If Y is Undead, the Cleric's good. Wizards who know Web can do this. Trip-focused fighters can do this, for small-ish X and Zs.2) Able to deal X ammount of damage per round to a creature with armor class Y and damage reduction Z/foo. For this, assume invulnerability to sneak attack is a type of damage reduction
3) Able to deal X ammount of damage per encounter/day to a creature with armor class Y and damage reduction Z. (as above)
4) Able to heal X ammount of damage per round in combat.
5) Able to remove condition X. Varied by level, X could be 'Frightened', 'Petrified', 'Ability/Level Drain' 'Poisoned, or even 'Dead') Clerics, naturally, are great at this one. Paladins can pull some tricks vs. Frightened.
6) Able to detect, disable, and/or bypass a trap of DC X, type Y. Y is mechanical, magical, &c
7) Able to sneak past a Listen/Spot check of DC X Via Hide/Move Silently, or Levitate/Invisibility, or what-have-you
8) Able to take X points of damage type Y per round for Z rounds.
9) Able to make a DC X Saving throw of type Y
10) Armor class X
11) Can hit DC X on Knowledge (Y). Where Y is Religion, Arcana, Nature, or Dungeoneering
12) Can pierce/cope with condition X Where X is 'invisible', 'ethereal', 'incorporeal', 'flying', &c...
13) Deal with an enemy who can attack X times around, hitting armor class Y for Z damage per attack.
14) Able to give a total bonus of X to stat Y.
15) Can dispel caster level X
16) Can move party via method X Fly, Teleport

The second is how the build fares as one member of a four-person party against certain 'Iconic' foes. I'm not sure how you'd work this out, though. I guess maybe you'd just make sure that, at the benchmark-level you're shooting for, you're able to hit the necessary save DCs and Armor Classes and Spell Resistances often enough.

Sadly, the following mosnters are not OGL, hence not accessible from work: beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar'ri, baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, yuan-ti.

That said, here's the best I've come up with, attempting to get flying, incrporeal, oozes, undead, will saves, &c, &c... :

1.1* 6-headed Hydra (CR 5)
2.1* Mummy (CR 5)
3.1* Otyugh (CR 4) + 1* Choker (CR 2)
4.1* Owlbear (CR 4) + 1* Worg (CR 2)
5.1* Troll (CR 5)
6.1* Wraith (CR 5)
7.2 * Gelatinous Cubes (CR 3)
8.2 * Air Mephits (CR 3)
9.3 * Blink Dogs (CR 2)
10.5 * Krenshars (CR 1)

I'd like to get either some idea for how we could judge a build in terms of its effectiveness in some 'generic' party against one of the above benchmark foes, and to see what other benchmark goals you think builds should be able to meet.

I mean, looking at all of those iconic roles, what are they really expected to be able to do?
iconoplast
01-13-07, 12:58 PM I mean, looking at all of those iconic roles, what are they really expected to be able to do?

The Iconic Roles, Defining just what they're supposed to do. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10576780)
Icon Role 1: Tank -- what is it? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=253679)
The Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500) (i.e., Icon Role 2: Arcane Caster)

So I'm adding some more specific arcane-stuff to the Goal List, and thinking about how to separate in-combat goals from out-of-combat goals.

I'm not sure how to quantify buff spells like Haste, though.
Endarire
01-13-07, 06:40 PM Wizards deal damage, buff a bit, and control the battlefield. Fighters (tanks) disable opponents (grappling, tripping, etc.), withstand/avoid damage, and deal lots of damage.

-EE
iconoplast
01-19-07, 01:35 PM Just a bump - anyone got any more ideas for how to quantify relative effectiveness of builds?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
iconoplast 01-12-07, 06:39 PM	I'm moving this from the Comparison of Power Level discussion, just because while comparing builds against each other is interesting, I find that your effectiveness at the table is not measured by how easily you could kill your party members, but by how easily you prevent them from being killed. The two often correlate, but I think it might be interesting to optimize for the latter. So, I have two vague ideas for how to measure builds. The first is by how well they meet certain abstract goals. I think the benchmark levels should probably be around 5, 10, 15, 20. However, I think making the levels odd will highlight the importance of full caster progression, and getting crucial spells as soon as they're available. Therefore, levels 5, 9, 13, and 17 seem like good places to measure efficiency. 1) Able to occupy X number of monsters Y for Z rounds (to allow the party to escape). If Y is Undead, the Cleric's good. Wizards who know Web can do this. Trip-focused fighters can do this, for small-ish X and Zs.2) Able to deal X ammount of damage per round to a creature with armor class Y and damage reduction Z/foo. For this, assume invulnerability to sneak attack is a type of damage reduction 3) Able to deal X ammount of damage per encounter/day to a creature with armor class Y and damage reduction Z. (as above) 4) Able to heal X ammount of damage per round in combat. 5) Able to remove condition X. Varied by level, X could be 'Frightened', 'Petrified', 'Ability/Level Drain' 'Poisoned, or even 'Dead') Clerics, naturally, are great at this one. Paladins can pull some tricks vs. Frightened. 6) Able to detect, disable, and/or bypass a trap of DC X, type Y. Y is mechanical, magical, &c 7) Able to sneak past a Listen/Spot check of DC X Via Hide/Move Silently, or Levitate/Invisibility, or what-have-you 8) Able to take X points of damage type Y per round for Z rounds. 9) Able to make a DC X Saving throw of type Y 10) Armor class X 11) Can hit DC X on Knowledge (Y). Where Y is Religion, Arcana, Nature, or Dungeoneering 12) Can pierce/cope with condition X Where X is 'invisible', 'ethereal', 'incorporeal', 'flying', &c... 13) Deal with an enemy who can attack X times around, hitting armor class Y for Z damage per attack. 14) Able to give a total bonus of X to stat Y. 15) Can dispel caster level X 16) Can move party via method X Fly, Teleport The second is how the build fares as one member of a four-person party against certain 'Iconic' foes. I'm not sure how you'd work this out, though. I guess maybe you'd just make sure that, at the benchmark-level you're shooting for, you're able to hit the necessary save DCs and Armor Classes and Spell Resistances often enough. Sadly, the following mosnters are not OGL, hence not accessible from work: beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar'ri, baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, yuan-ti. That said, here's the best I've come up with, attempting to get flying, incrporeal, oozes, undead, will saves, &c, &c... : 1.1* 6-headed Hydra (CR 5) 2.1* Mummy (CR 5) 3.1* Otyugh (CR 4) + 1* Choker (CR 2) 4.1* Owlbear (CR 4) + 1* Worg (CR 2) 5.1* Troll (CR 5) 6.1* Wraith (CR 5) 7.2 * Gelatinous Cubes (CR 3) 8.2 * Air Mephits (CR 3) 9.3 * Blink Dogs (CR 2) 10.5 * Krenshars (CR 1) I'd like to get either some idea for how we could judge a build in terms of its effectiveness in some 'generic' party against one of the above benchmark foes, and to see what other benchmark goals you think builds should be able to meet. I mean, looking at all of those iconic roles, what are they really expected to be able to do?
iconoplast 01-13-07, 12:58 PM	I mean, looking at all of those iconic roles, what are they really expected to be able to do? The Iconic Roles, Defining just what they're supposed to do. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10576780) Icon Role 1: Tank -- what is it? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=253679) The Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500) (i.e., Icon Role 2: Arcane Caster) So I'm adding some more specific arcane-stuff to the Goal List, and thinking about how to separate in-combat goals from out-of-combat goals. I'm not sure how to quantify buff spells like Haste, though.
Endarire 01-13-07, 06:40 PM	Wizards deal damage, buff a bit, and control the battlefield. Fighters (tanks) disable opponents (grappling, tripping, etc.), withstand/avoid damage, and deal lots of damage. -EE
iconoplast 01-19-07, 01:35 PM	Just a bump - anyone got any more ideas for how to quantify relative effectiveness of builds?