Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GaffeR 10-02-06, 02:44 AM	The following build is an adaptation of T_G's Beshadowed Blade (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9809082&postcount=2). Many thanks to Tleilaxu_Ghola for the original Beshadowed Blade and his help and patience as I harassed him with PMs. :D I made a couple changes in the progression to get rid of XP penalties. I really like the build as a whole, but I need some advice on maneuvers! Title: Beshadowed Blade v2 Race: Human Build Stub: Swordsage 3/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage +1/Blood Claw Master 2/Fighter +1/Warblade +1/Swordsage +2/Warblade +1/Swordsage +4/Blood Claw Master +1/Swordsage +2 Since I'm too lazy to try and format the progression on the forums, here it is an an Excel screenshot: http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2143/beshadowedbladev2nj0.jpg Swo = Swordsage, Fig = Fighter, War = Warblade, BcM = Blood Claw Master S/W = Swordsage/Warblade IL = Initiator level Swap: an 'X'ed level indicates a swapped maneuver for the Swordsage Feats: 1. Adaptive Style, (Shadow Blade), (Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand) 3. Weapon Finesse 4. (TWF) 6. Iron Heart Aura 9. Stormguard Warrior, (ITWF) 12. Gloom Razor 15. GTWF 18. Free - Blade Meditation, Martial Maneuver/Study, Dark Stalker, etc. Abilities: DEX>WIS>CON>STR>INT>CHA * High Degree of DEX & Wis Synergy: You gain dex to attack at level 3 and dex to damage at level 1. You gain Wis to AC at level 2 and Wis to damage on two schools of strikes. * High AC: Due to the fact that dex and wisdom both contribute to your AC, and you may wear light armor (read mithril breast plate), you have pretty good AC. Let's not forget about Evasion at level 16 (kinda late, but oh well) and Uncanny Dodge at level 10. * No TWF penalty: At 8th level you don't take any penalty for wielding two tiger claw weapons. Also gets full strength bonus to both on and off-hand attacks (at level 7). * Stormguard Warrior: Access to stormguard warrior + TWF essentially enables this character to deliver highly damaging, yet highly accurate attacks. * Gloom Razor: Mixed with many shadow hand maneuvers/boosts this feat is incredible as it is capable of rendering opponents flat-footed without an opposing check. Your rogue will appreciate this. It also synergizes quite well with both the Child of Shadow and Island of Blades stances, granting a flat-footed opponent almost every round or near constant concealment. * White Raven Tactics: Gains the ability to grab this maneuver at level 10. Thanks to the warblade recovery system, this could be employed multiple times in an encounter if need be. * Good initiative: Not astoundingly high, but the good dex synergy + quick to act gives a total of 3+dex to initiative. * Access to 9th level maneuvers by 20th level. Dual progression provides a large store of maneuvers at the beginning of combat. * Good saves: F/R/W of 13/12/10 at 20th level. Basically what I'm looking for is advice on maneuvers and stances. I need: 3 Tiger Claw by level 6 1 Shadow Hand stance by level 3 1 Iron Heart stance by level 6 (Punishing Stance) 2 Iron Heart Maneuvers by level 9 (Punishing Stance + Wall of Blades I think) 2 Shadow Hand maneuvers by level 12 1 White Raven maneuver by level 10 (for White Raven Tactics) Thanks in advance. Edit: Fixed progression
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-02-06, 05:33 PM	Excellent. :emp: Your lack of MAD has made you powerful indeed.
GaffeR 10-02-06, 10:29 PM	Excellent. :emp: Your lack of MAD has made you powerful indeed. Thank you. :devil:
GaffeR 10-03-06, 08:35 PM	*Sigh* :bump:
Campbell55 10-15-06, 11:23 AM	Weapon Finesse is a waste of a Feat, for a Swordsage My build Str 10 Dex18 Con10 Int 16 Wis 18 Char 10 Intuitive strike....(Exalted Deeds) use Wis mod instead of Str (simple weapons only) Varient...Drop armour for monk unarmed progression at 2nd lvl 18 AC present ly the build is swordsage6/Warblade1/Citital Elite 5/ Hier of Siberys (Orien) 3 3rd lvl feat Rapid Assault (9 swords) 6 lvl feat TWF ( Core) 9 lvl Feat Communicator ( Comp Arcane ) Carrys universal wand Mage Armour, Uni wand Shield (1800 gp ) +8 AC 2x/day approx 4 minutes per use Weapon- due to the manuevers appearing that you need to use an appropriate weapon for the said manuever Dark wood or Mitheral Lt Mace (Desert Wind) Longsword (Iron Heart, White Raven ) Unarmed (Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon , Setting Sun , Tiger Claw ) Stats were to be a non descript person my only regret is that no sunder
Campbell55 10-15-06, 11:25 AM	oops Swordsage 8 Warblade 1 Cit Elite 5 Heir 3
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-15-06, 05:19 PM	Weapon Finesse is a waste of a Feat, for a Swordsage Yeah, I hate getting my best stat mod to attack. Why is intuitive strike any better? Now you have to invest in an ability which doesn't give you anything except attack,AC, and damage on one discipline of strikes. DEX, on the other hand, gives Initiative, AC, Attack, Damage (on all attacks), and is tied to important combat skills.
xanadu 10-15-06, 06:04 PM	This is what I would pick if I had your character 1. sudden leap (tiger) wolf fang strike (tiger) shadow blade technique (shadow) Clinging shadow strike (shadow) Counter charge (setting) Stone bones (stone) 2. Mighty throw (setting) 3. Claw at the moon (tiger) 5. Steel wind (iron) Leading the attack (white) Mountain hammer (stone) 6. Soaring raptor strike (tiger) Strength draining strike (shadow) sub out wolf fang 7. Flesh ripper (tiger) 10. White raven tactics (white) 11. Obscuring shadow veil (shadow) 12. Death from above (tiger) Comet throw (setting) sub out mighty throw Stances are really personal preference so you'd know better than me.
GaffeR 10-15-06, 09:19 PM	Yeah, I hate getting my best stat mod to attack. :rofl: Yeah, I think there's more synergy going with Dex than there is Wisdom. TG also forgot to mention the high dex requirements for the TWF line. This is what I would pick if I had your character... Interesting choices. Here's what I've got so far (actually playing the PC, just haven't gotten around to picking all the maneuvers) Level 2 Str 14 Dex 18 Con 14 Wis 16 Int 12 Cha 8 (gloomy!) Maneuvers: Wolf Fang Strike (TC1, S) Sudden Leap (TC1, B) Burning Blade (DW1, B) Stone Bones (SD1, S) Counter Charge (SS1, C) - - Stances: Child of Shadows (SH1) Hunter's Sense (TC 1) - fulfills that 3 maneuvers before 6 req (don't really like the other lvl 1-2 TC maneuvers), some synergy with Bloodclaw master, scent is nice The rest of the first level maneuvers seem pretty lame to me. Just not worth taking. I'm also trying to stay away from maneuvers with a Str based save (+2 ain't enough). As far as my first level of warblade, I'm thinkin: Wall of Blades (IH1, C) - It's just nice Douse the Fire/Lead the Charge - undecided, both marginally useful - Punishing Stance Some maneuvers I'm shootin for: Pouncing Charge Raging Mongoose/Dancing Mongoose Time Stands Still WRT (lvl 10) I was also thinking about grabbing Mithral tornado with the 3rd Warblade level. It seems a bit of a waste, but it'd be nice to have some anti-mob defense. Are there any multiple attack Tiger Claw strikes other than Wolf Fang and Pouncing Charge? I want to make that Wis to dmg work.
xanadu 10-16-06, 02:00 AM	Shadow blade technique (shadow) - is good 1st level maneuver because you get to roll to hit twice. I don't like Desert Wind so I forgot about burning blade; definetely a good choice as it is not capped at +5. Dont underestimate mighty throw (setting) either. You will win that check w/ your dex. I think wall of blades is IH 2 (you have it listed as IH 1). It is good, though I prefer offense and like to have something that overcomes DR in my bad of tricks. I guess that is one sign that ToB is a great book in that there are no obvious choices; players can go by preference and have reasonably effective characters :) White Raven strike > Mithral tornado, especially if you are going to focus on shadow hand maneuvers that require bad guys to be flat foot. I think you'll do fine however you go with that build.
GaffeR 10-16-06, 04:35 PM	I never really considered Mighty Throw or White Raven Strike. I'm AFB but I'll definately check em out. Thanks for the ideas! It only took a few months for someone to suggest some.
Timespike 11-10-06, 09:23 PM	This is a really nice build, Gaffer. Kudos.
GaffeR 11-11-06, 04:01 PM	This is a really nice build, Gaffer. Kudos. Thank you sir. Most of the credit goes to TG though, I just fine tuned it a bit. Actually playing this very build right now. It definitely holds its own quite well against feral minotaurs, young brass dragons, etc. I'm getting a lot of mileage out of the Wolf Fang Strike + Burning Blade combo. Tumble in, unload, Sudden Leap out of danger.
GaffeR 11-27-06, 08:21 PM	So I'm going to try and sit down and get some maneuvers fleshed out for this guy with TG. The following maneuvers struck me after a cursory glance over the ToB. Level 1. Wolf Fang Strike, Burning Blade, Counter Charge, Sudden Leap, Stone Bones (need 2 more still) 3. Cloak of Deception (not sold on this) 5. Wall of Blades, Douse the Flames (I like Mountain hammer and steel wind for the 3rd, but it's gotta last) 6. Insightful Strike*, Strength Draining Strike (damage as a skill check seems broken to me, str damage is good) 7. Soaring Raptor Strike (my fav of the level 2-3 TC) 10. White Raven Tactics (could grab a lvl 4, but this is good) 11. Pouncing Charge (Pounce rocks, Wis to damage) 12. Bloodletting Strike*, Dancing Mongoose (extra attacks and con damage) 15. Greater Insightful Strike* (swapped from Insightful) 16. Avalance of Blades (set up for Combat Rythm) 17. Swooping Dragon Strike (damage, movement, stun as skill check!!!) 18. Raging Mongoose (4 extra attacks, um, yes please) 20. Five-Fold Ice Enervating Strike*, Time Stands Still (FFIES sounds cool and the effects are amazing, TSS turns enemies into a fine pink mist) * = swap If I'm missing maneuvers at a level at which I should gain them, It's because I don't know what I like there. Anyways, a lot of Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand maneuvers. I should probably have more breadth, but this is preliminary. Please aid in the brainstorming of maneuvers if you can. :D
PhoenixInferno 11-27-06, 08:45 PM	If you were a Swordsage 20, I would tell you to get Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (also my personal favorite maneuver because the name is JUST THAT DAMN FUNNY!) and abuse GWFP + Raging Mongoose with Dual Boost. I also like Shadow Garotte (spelling?) - good mid level damage. I find it odd that there aren't that many good maneuvers out of Setting Sun. I tried to use Giant Slaying Stance for UnCon, but found just about all the potential prerequisite manuevers to be unsatisfying.
GaffeR 11-27-06, 08:54 PM	I like GWFR, and there IS still room in the build to take it, but I think Raging Mongoose is a better boost. 4 extra attacks (stormguard, dex, str, possibly wis) or 8 with Time stands vs an extra 35ish damage max, 70ish with TSS. Anyways, I'm not a SS 20 :D I wonder if it's worth taking even with Raging Mongoose. I'm kinda doubting it.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-27-06, 09:06 PM	I like GWFR, and there IS still room in the build to take it, but I think Raging Mongoose is a better boost. 4 extra attacks (stormguard, dex, str, possibly wis) or 8 with Time stands vs an extra 35ish damage max, 70ish with TSS. Anyways, I'm not a SS 20 :D I wonder if it's worth taking even with Raging Mongoose. I'm kinda doubting it. Raging Mongoose FTW!! Yes, yes it is totally worth it. GWFR will give you what? Max 20d6 extra damage? The probability of that happening is pretty low though. Even if they all hit, that's an average of 70 extra damage. Raging mongoose, on the other hand, gives you 4 more attacks at your highest BAB. Meaning those attacks have a good probability of hitting. Each attack will be dealin' 19 damage each [1d4 + 10 dex + 2 strength + 5 enhancement]. Already that's more damage than GWFR gives on average. The dex/str figures I think are pretty standard for a 20th level dex-based warrior. Add in more miscellaneous bonuses and there's simply no question which deals more damage.
GaffeR 11-27-06, 09:12 PM	Yes, yes it is totally worth it. What is? Taking both? I was leaning towards Raging goose only. Edit: The extra damage gets even sillier when combined with Stormguard. I think landing 10 attacks with Avalance shouldn't be TOO difficult to do, right?. Consider also using the boost with TSS (and Insightful strike - Diamond Mind).
PhoenixInferno 11-27-06, 09:16 PM	I loves me the GWFR. I'd go with Raging Mongoose if you had to pick though.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-27-06, 09:27 PM	I wonder if it's worth taking even with Raging Mongoose. Proably me mis-reading this line. I thought you were doubting the merits of raging mongoose. If not, then carry on!
GaffeR 11-27-06, 09:38 PM	*Carries on*
Subedei 11-27-06, 10:05 PM	It's all about Avalanche of Blades + Stormguard Warrior followed by White Raven Tactics and then Decisive Strike + Raging Mongoose.
GaffeR 11-27-06, 10:25 PM	Decisive Strike? I should mention that the above list is nothing hard and fast, just stuff that cought my eye. If you have different ideas, please do post them. Don't feel restrained by my first pass.
Grave 11-27-06, 10:46 PM	If you're doing the whole Stormguard Warrior + Avalanche of Blades Routine, then GWFR is a great add on. This way, you're not only setting up your opponent for the next round of gyrating death, but you're also softening him/her/it up. Disrupting Blow is also a good strike to use as an opener. Move, hit, enemy can't act for a round. Next round, enemy proceedes to die. Rinse and repeat. -Grave & Co.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-01-06, 08:25 PM	Here's my maneuver progression, divided into warblade and swordsage, for this most excellent build. Maneuvers I think are important have an asterix behind them. Maneuvers that are just fillers are not emphasized. These maneuvers are either good for their level, or have significant benefit later on. My algorithm for selection is as follows: If it offers attack bonus, it automatically gains high preference. If it offers area attack damage, it gains preference. If it offers significant extra damage for the level, it gains preference. If it offers additional attacks, it gains extreme preference. If it expands versatility, it gains preference. If it offers damage boosts without affecting number of attacks, it gains high preference. Swordsage: 1. Maneuvers: Burning Blade*, Mighty Throw, Shadow Blade Technique*, Charging Minotaur, Wolf Fang Strike* Stances: Island of blades 2. Maneuvers: Counter Charge 3. Maneuvers: Flashing Sun* 6. Maneuvers: Death Mark; Swap Mighty Throw -> Feigned Opening 7. Maneuvers: Soaring Raptor Strike 11. Maneuvers: Dancing Mongoose Stances: Assassin's Stance 12. Maneuvers: Blood Letting Strike; swap: Charging Minotaur -> Shadow Jaunt 14. Maneuvers: Pouncing Charge 15. Maneuvers: Rabid Bear Strike, swap: Wolf Fang Strike -> Searing Blade 16. Maneuvers: Swooping Dragon Strike Stances: Hearing the Air 17. Maneuvers: Inferno Blade, swap: Shadow Blade Technique -> Shadow Blink 18. Maneuvers: Raging Mongoose 19. Maneuvers: One with Shadow 20. Maneuvers: Five Shadow Creeping Enervation Strike, swap: Soaring Raptor Strike -> Feral Death Blow Stances: Balance on the Sky Warblade 5. Maneuvers: Leading the Attack, Rabid Wolf Strike*, Battle Leader's Charge* Stances: Punishing Stance 10. Maneuvers: Iron Heart Surge* 13. Maneuvers: White Raven Tactics* Hopefully I managed my pre-reqs properly. Feel free to check.
GaffeR 12-01-06, 11:11 PM	Very interesting list, TG. Questions and comments, however: Swordsage: Charging Minotaur: My BB has 14 Str, I'm kinda doubting the usefulness of this. I suppose it's OK until swapped, but still. It DOES look nice for getting into combat, though. Shadow Blade Technique: Useful at low levels, but assuming 5th+? Mighty Throw: Wait for it... Island of Blades: Better than Child of Shadows? Child has a bit more synergy with Gloom Razor IMO. I wonder what you would think if we threw in Distracting Ember. First level maneuvers: Unfortunately we'll need 1 more to meet the BcM requirements! I'm a pretty big fan of Sudden Leap. I also snagged Hunter's Sense as the other TC maneuvers didn't appeal much. Flashing Sun: This over Cloak of Deception? My BB has the choice of taking the Dark template (bought off). After reading your Ghost build, I can definately see the advantages of Cloak. Death Mark: 6d6 non-scaling is pretty pathetic, especially when it hurts party members. It is a cool maneuver, though. Feigned Opening: Ah! So this was why we took Mighty Throw. This is a fantastic maneuver that I never noticed. 3rd level maneuvers: I can see why one would skip Str Draining Strike, as fort negates. I guess the damage generated by Insightful strike is kinda low. Soaring Raptor: The other 3rd level TC are kinda lame. Dancing Mongoose: Hellz ya, extra attack boosts. Scary with Superior TWF, ITWF, Flashing Sun and Burning Blade. Assassin's stance: Agreed, seems better than Step of Dancing Moth, despite being lower level. It also opens up Deadly Precision weapons. Blood letting strike: love this maneuver :D Shadow Jaunt: Really? Handy I guess, but compared to a move action with speed boosts? Pouncing Charge: Drool :D Rabid Bear Strike: not bad, never noticed it. How about Stalker in the Night? Searing Blade: Why have you decided to have multiple copies of (essentially) the same boost? 7th level maneuvers: Hydra Slaying Strike seems tasty, full attacks are bad. I suppose I may have enough swift act movement to get away. Swooping Dragon Strike: love this maneuver, stunning is great. Hearing the Air: Interesting utility. Assuming I have Hunter's sense, is it worth it? Not up to speed on blindsense. Inferno Blade: another copy of the same maneuver.. interesting. Shadow Blink: More swift action movement, nice maneuver but similar to Sudden Leap. Raging Mongoose: Wonderous, but I'm kinda surprised you still have dancing. One with Shadow: Nice defense, to be sure. looking at the rest of the 8th level maneuvers, I guess I'm not seeing anything better. FSCIEE: Mmm, this is a nasty one. Feral Death Blow: Over Time stands still? You crazy? I'm not sure I'd loose Soaring Dragon either. Balance on the sky: Utility, gettin around, nice. Warblade: Leading the attack: I preferred Douse the Flames, but I can see the benefit of this one as well. I suppose it would get more use. Rabid Wolf Strike: +4 attack, nice, but the damage is pretty sad. Why so important? Battle Leader's Charge: +10 dmg, not bad I suppose. The lack of AoOs for moving is cool. Warblade maneuvers: Why not Wall of Blades and/or Steel Wind? So some main questions: [list] Why take maneuvers with DCs based on Str, when it is so low? Why have more than 1 "copy" of a boost? Why swap out such high level maneuvers instead of low? Why did you give preferences the way you did? I guess I'm just looking for reasoning as to why you selected the maneuvers you did, as well as your preferences algorithm. I may have a hard time convincing the DM to allow me to swap out existing maneuvers (see post 9). Does that list change your mind at all? I was really torn between Child and Island. I wonder if I picked wrong in the long run. I'm startin to think so. I don't want to seem overly-critical. I am deeply grateful for all your help and the original build.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 12:05 AM	Very interesting list, TG. Questions and comments, however: Swordsage: Charging Minotaur: My BB has 14 Str, I'm kinda doubting the usefulness of this. I suppose it's OK until swapped, but still. It DOES look nice for getting into combat, though. Meh. It was the no attacks of opportunity on a charge that got me. I didn't notice that it require a bull rush. Sudden leap would be just as good, then. Shadow Blade Technique: Useful at low levels, but assuming 5th+? Here's the deal: you make two attack rolls. This basically means you can re-roll your attacks and pick the higher. That's pretty freakin' uber if you ask me. The fact that you can get damage out of it is purely gravy. Mighty Throw: Wait for it... It's an okay maneuver and you can use your dex instead of str. It's good for lower levels when you wanna trips someone, but suck at tripping because your str score is a dump stat. Island of Blades: Better than Child of Shadows? Child has a bit more synergy with Gloom Razor IMO. I wonder what you would think if we threw in Distracting Ember. Debatable, true. I'm really keen on getting extra attack bonus. That's probably one of my most important criterion. Why? Because attack boosts are rare and extremely valuable for a melee build with only 16 BAB. Island of blades greatly facilitates flanking, which gets you a +2 to attack. It also helps out the party rogue. It think it's versatility is greater for the party, assuming there's a rogue in the crowd. First level maneuvers: Unfortunately we'll need 1 more to meet the BcM requirements! I'm a pretty big fan of Sudden Leap. I also snagged Hunter's Sense as the other TC maneuvers didn't appeal much. Yeah, I support the move to sudden leap. Hunter's sense is pretty worthless, unless you have track. Flashing Sun: This over Cloak of Deception? My BB has the choice of taking the Dark template (bought off). After reading your Ghost build, I can definately see the advantages of Cloak. That was my first choice too, however, I changed my mind in favor of an extra attack. Remember, extra attacks in conjunction with stormguard warrior are the bread and butter damage of this build. Extra attacks trumps all. Death Mark: 6d6 non-scaling is pretty pathetic, especially when it hurts party members. It is a cool maneuver, though. Yeah... I wasn't sure what to put here. Suggestions? Feigned Opening: Ah! So this was why we took Mighty Throw. This is a fantastic maneuver that I never noticed. Astute. That was one of the motivating factors. 3rd level maneuvers: I can see why one would skip Str Draining Strike, as fort negates. I guess the damage generated by Insightful strike is kinda low. I pretty much avoid anything with saves unless we can pump the DC like crazy. STR damage isn't that great, if you ask me. Soaring Raptor: The other 3rd level TC are kinda lame. Aye. Dancing Mongoose: Hellz ya, extra attack boosts. Scary with Superior TWF, ITWF, Flashing Sun and Burning Blade. Bingo. Assassin's stance: Agreed, seems better than Step of Dancing Moth, despite being lower level. It also opens up Deadly Precision weapons. Bingo! Blood letting strike: love this maneuver :D I picked it because of the wis-based save. 4 con damage is good even at high levels, because it effectively deals 2 damage per HD... in otherwords it scales well. Shadow Jaunt: Really? Handy I guess, but compared to a move action with speed boosts? I think it's superior because it's teleportation. It enables stuff that you wouldn't be able to do on foot. TPing across chasms, teleporting past traps, etc. It's also pretty cool. Pouncing Charge: Drool :D My only regret was delaying it so long. Maybe I should switch this with shadow jaunt? Rabid Bear Strike: not bad, never noticed it. How about Stalker in the Night? Depends on how stealthy you wanna be. I like bear strike because of the attack bonus/damage bonus it offers. Decent damage (DEX + WIS + 10d6). Good for killing bosses, or enemies who don't start right next to you. Searing Blade: Why have you decided to have multiple copies of (essentially) the same boost? Pretty simple really. We're talking about a swordsage. Unless you wanna take time off during combat, having multiple "copies" of your best damage boosts isn't a bad idea. When I play swordsages I want to be able to wait until the last possible second to recover my maneuvers. This boost line syergizes so well with a TWFer that it's good to have a couple of times per encounter. Swooping Dragon Strike: love this maneuver, stunning is great. Hearing the Air: Interesting utility. Assuming I have Hunter's sense, is it worth it? Not up to speed on blindsense. It's vastly superior to hunter's sense. Yes, it's a utility stance. It allows you to mix your inherent stealth skills with some improved scouting ability. Inferno Blade: another copy of the same maneuver.. interesting. Same logic. I like me damage, especially when it's "free" and can be applied to a full attack. Between these boosts and dancing mongoose almost all your full attacks in an encounter should be augmented. I'd start off with a std. action strike to approach, then follow up with boosted full attacks. Shadow Blink: More swift action movement, nice maneuver but similar to Sudden Leap. Do you have any idea how big the jump check to use sudden leap as effectively as shadow blink would be? DC 100 without Leap of the Heavens (DC 50 with leap of the heavens). They're simply not equivalent, and our build isn't big on strength/speed, so our jump check isn't very optimized. Raging Mongoose: Wonderous, but I'm kinda surprised you still have dancing. Again, the multiple copies of boosts principal applies for swordsage builds. Since they don't recover as well as warblades or crusaders, they make up for it with a lot of readied maneuvers and preparing multiple versions of the same thing. Lets face it, this is a specialized build. He's optimized for dex-synergy and twf damage. At all chances I've tried to focus it more towards that goal. While swordsages can play multiple niches at once, I usually favor a well focused and established character niche over a jack of all trades. One with Shadow: Nice defense, to be sure. looking at the rest of the 8th level maneuvers, I guess I'm not seeing anything better. Oh... my friend this one here is one of the best maneuvers EVAR! Since you gain the incorporeal subtype your attacks become touch attacks. Need accuracy? This counter/boost allows you to deliver... and do so on a full attack. Also has great non-combat applications (walking through walls). FSCIEE: Mmm, this is a nasty one. Feral Death Blow: Over Time stands still? You crazy? I'm not sure I'd loose Soaring Dragon either. Balance on the sky: Utility, gettin around, nice. Do you see 4 diamond mind maneuvers in my sequence? I'd love to have TSS, but it's pre-reqs are too high. You could re-do the list to get it, but I don't think it's worth it. Feral death blow is questionable, due to the strength based DC... Now that I look at it, inferno blast might be kind of nice. Huge area effect, with lots 100 damage is pretty good for crowd control. Warblade: Leading the attack: I preferred Douse the Flames, but I can see the benefit of this one as well. I suppose it would get more use. Exactly. Maybe your DM uses AoOs a lot, but my DMs (or when I DM) usually avoid complicated battle with AoOs. AoO optimization is usually a PC thing. Rabid Wolf Strike: +4 attack, nice, but the damage is pretty sad. Why so important? It's so important because of that insane +4 to attack. Accuracy is a big concern for this build. You're barely better than a straight rogue as far as BAB is concerned. So I'm always on the look out for more attack bonus. The damage is level appropriate. Battle Leader's Charge: +10 dmg, not bad I suppose. The lack of AoOs for moving is cool. It's got pretty close to the most damage bonus for a strike of its level, and AoO negation is ever so nice. It's a great maneuver for battle placement. Warblade maneuvers: Why not Wall of Blades and/or Steel Wind? Actually, I just noticed that I don't have enough iron heart maneuvers to qualify for stormguard warrior in time. We need two iron heart maneuvers and a stance. Steely strike is an easy replacement for rabid wolf strike... steel wind is pretty good too, though. Toss up for me. We want one WR maneuver to satisfy the pre-reqs for WRT. Soo... I really don't have a lot of choice. Leading the attack is practically required. That leaves the last maneuver to be: Disarming strike. I think your AC will be higher than your attack bonus anyways, so wall of blades isn't too attractive to me.
GaffeR 12-02-06, 01:08 AM	Interesting thoughts. I never really considered having multiples of a boost, but it does make a lot of sense in this build! As far as low level stances go, Island of Blades IS nice. However, often I'll just tumble around behind something. *sigh* The choice between the two SH 1 stances is tough. Hunter's Sense isn't the greatest, but the scent has come in handy at times. My party seems to get snuck up on a lot. It acts as an early warning system. However, I could easily lose it (DM allowing of course). Any suggestions on another first level stance? As far as stealth/damage goes, I suppose I was getting stuck in the stealth mode a bit too much. The maneuvers you've picked really go towards the melee blender aspect of this build, which is good. I am a bit curious as to why the low level strikes are still around once we reach higher levels. I guess we just can't get rid of them fast enough. What do you think of the Dark template bought off for this character? HiPS is fantastic, but I'm now questioning it given your view of this build. I was seeing it as a stealth/damage hybrid. Perhaps the stealth would be better served by your Ghost build, leaving the blenderizing to the Beshadowed Blade. I'll check the ole ToB again and post up some maneuver thoughts shortly. Maybe I can swing Time stands still somehow.... Edit: All Stormguard needs is two IH maneuvers. We get one with Punishing stance (for Ironheart Aura) and the other can be any of the 3 WB maneuvers. This leaves us with 2 more (say Leading the attack and Battle Leader's Charge).
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 01:14 AM	See that's the beauty of BB and BB V2. You can use it how you like. I tend to be more combat focused in my builds, but a stealth focus is pretty cool. If you got the dark template for "free" or with LA buy-off, you have a strong motivation to go with stealth. In either case though, I still think multiple boost copies are important. Edit: All Stormguard needs is two IH maneuvers. We get one with Punishing stance (for Ironheart Aura) and the other can be any of the 3 WB maneuvers. This leaves us with 2 more (say Leading the attack and Battle Leader's Charge). Actually, per RAW, stances only count as maneuvers for determining the pre-reqs of getting other maneuvers, not feats. So you really do need 2 IH maneuvers, and 1 IH stance (for ironheart aura) to get Stormguard warrior).
GaffeR 12-02-06, 01:20 AM	Agreed. Perhaps if I'm feeling Masochistic I'll throw up different lists of maneuvers for different focuses... probably not though. I have a hard enough time with one. I guess I was hoping to maintain stealth inside combat scenarios. It sorta works against the "full attack your enemy until it's a fine pink mist" motif. Edit: assuming a combat focus, is there any real point in paying for the Dark template? I think I'd rather have a faster progression.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 01:25 AM	Edit: assuming a combat focus, is there any real point in paying for the Dark template? I think I'd rather have a faster progression. I would not use the dark template unless your goal was stealth. For that goal, it's better than hit-dice. For a combat character, as you noted, it just slows you down. If you want stealth + combat you really need a rediculous hide bonus. That and stalker in the night. I think it's too focused of a niche to shoot for. It sort of worked in the Ghost build that I made, but I don't see it working with BB V2.
GaffeR 12-02-06, 01:37 AM	Agreed. So, options for two first level stances? Island of blades and... Hrmm, single strike maneuvers... TG, you have blown my mind. :D
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 01:45 AM	Why not child of shadow? It *does* work well with this build. I just forgot that SS's get 2 stances in 2 levels.
GaffeR 12-02-06, 01:59 AM	Hrmm.. I suppose so... problem is at higher levels where one can buy a cloak of displacement. Tiger Claw maneuvers become tight then, also. I'd like the WB maneuvers to be: Leading the attack (you can give yourself the +4 with Feigned opening, no?) Battle leader's charge Iron Heart (Steel wind/Steely strike/Wall of blades) This means we need 3 TC maneuvers from the SS side before level 6. 1. Sudden Leap 1. Wolf Fang Strike 1. Counter Charge 1. Burning Blade 1. Shadow Blade Technique 1. Mighty Throw > Swapped to Feigned Opening at level 6 1. Something else: Charging Minotaur, Stone bones?* 2. Devoted to Flashing Sun Ah ha! Level 6 (Swordsage 4) -Soaring Raptor Strike Level 7 (BcM 1) -Rabid Wolf Strike I know CustServ said (IIRC) PrCs don't let you swap maneuvers, but there's nothing saying we can't swap maneuvers gained from them, is there? *I just noticed you are short on your first level maneuvers. SSs get 6 at level 1, not 5. Another at level 2 brings the total up to 7. I also noticed that a 2 level dip into Swordsage is pretty damn good.
GaffeR 12-02-06, 02:38 AM	Another thought: Is Rabid Wolf Strike worth taking as BcM 1? Consider.. ...lvl 6: Swordsage 4 - Soaring Raptor Strike lvl 7: Fighter 2 - ITWF lvl 8: Warblade 2 - Iron Heart Surge lvl 9: BCM 1 - Fountain of Blood or Death from Above (neither that hot IMO) It also begs the question, if you're doing that, why take a level 2 IH maneuver... unless you really like 'em. It also delays Superior TWF. Besides, Rabid Wolf Strike does give the "oh so tasty" +4 to hit. Meh, not really worth it I guess. To those of you who don't care about this thread, please bear with the constant bumpage.
GaffeR 12-02-06, 03:32 AM	Well here is a semi-solid maneuvers list that slides Time Stands Still in at 20th level. Hearing the Air requires 2 DM maneuvers, which was a pain. I'm not sure it's worth it, overall. We lose the shadow jumps, rabid bear strike, maybe some other stuff. However, I am pretty happy with it up til 12th level. Swordsage 1. Burning Blade Wolf Fang Strike (ii) Sudden Leap Mighty Throw(i) Shadow Blade Technique(iii) Moment of Perfect Mind* >Child of Shadows 2. Counter Charge >Island of Blades 3. Flashing Sun 6. Soaring Raptor Strike Feigned Opening(i) 7. Rabid Bear Strike (iv) 11. Dancing Mongoose >Assassin's Stance 12. Pouncing Charge Bloodletting Strike(ii) 14. Rapid Counter(v)* - I figured this would be less useful than Moment of Perfect Mind 15. Greater Insightful Strike* Searing Blade(iii) 16. Swooping Dragon Strike >Hearing the Air 17. Avalanche of Blades* Inferno Blade(iv) 18. Raging Mongoose 19. One with Shadow 20. Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike Time Stands Still(v) > denotes a stance (i), (ii), etc denotes a swap * denotes a pain in the ass DM maneuver Man, I hope my enemies aren't immune to fire.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 01:33 PM	Yeah, you've done a good job of cherry picking the best DM maneuvers. But the problem is they don't do a whole lot for this build, because they're largely redundant to the class abilities in place. at 20th level the base saves are: 13/10/10, if I calculated correctly. That's pretty good. We have a focus on wisdom and dex already, meaning we can expect a +10 to ref and + 6 or so to wisdom, assuming one focuses on dex more. Throw on +5 cloak of resistance which is almost required at that level, and you've got (with a modest +4 in con): 22/25/21 for saves. You also have evasion. That says to me that moment of perfect mind isn't the best thing ever. Sure, with full ranks it would allow you to make will save of: (23 ranks + 4 con) = 27. An appreciable improvement, to be sure, but it's only one effectively one save per encounter. In otherwords, the benefit of the maneuver isn't as good as it might be for a will-save weak build. Same with avalanche of blades. We're TWFers. We make lots of attacks. That's kind of in our signature line. So avalanche of blades doesn't really give us a whole lot; in fact I'd argue that it's worse than a full attack for us. Avalanche of blades is awesome for two-handed weapon wielders, especially two-handed blunt weapons. Other than those two picks, I'd say it works out pretty good. Here's what I'd replace those with: Avalanche of Blades -> Moment of Alacrity; but also at 17th level swap Moment of Perfect Mind -> Quick Silver Motion. What I'm trying to do with these swaps is remove semi-redundant maneuvers and replace them with stuff that would be good for this build. More initiative is never bad, hence moment of alacrity. Quick silver motion should have been at the top of your mind when it came to delivering those devistating stormguard warrior full attacks. It's a poor replacement for shadow blink, IMO, but it'll do.
GaffeR 12-02-06, 01:47 PM	Base saves are 13/11/9. I'm aware moment of perfect mind isn't that great in this build. I threw it in there because we needed some lower level DM maneuvers, and I didn't want to give up anything else. My rationale behind Avalanche was as a first round of Combat Rhythm. A whole bunch of touch attacks the first round, followed by a devastating second round of full attacks as an Incorporeal create (GAWD one with shadow is awesome) or with Time Stands Still. I never noticed, however, that Combat Rhythm simply lets you swap out attacks you don't think will hit, rather than devote an entire round to touch attacks. What makes Avalanche so good for THFers? The high to-hit bonus? I'll check the pre-reqs for those two maneuvers. The problem is getting two of them in before lvl 16 and Hearing the Air. Edit: Any comment on Child of Shadows vs Cloak of Displacement? I suppose it saves cash and is always available. Edit2: I agree that these DM maneuvers probably aren't as good as what we lost for them, which makes me wonder if TSS is worth it.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 01:53 PM	It's gotta be 10 will save at least. You have 12 levels of swordsage (that gives 8), then you add in 3 levels of warblade +1, 3 levels of BCM +1 = 10. The reason avalanche is so good with THWs is because it offers iterative attacks at a cheaper cost than they usually receive. When you have a blunt weapon and combine it with a feat in the PHB 2 (can't remember name off hand, it's listed in the combo sections of the ToB trick thread), you get iterative attacks for -3 each, instead of -4. In our case, we get a 2 at full bab (no penalty on either) then we go -5 (for 2 more), etc. TWF gives more attacks at a higher accuracy than avalanche of blades.
GaffeR 12-02-06, 01:56 PM	Doh, you are correct sir. Base saves are 13/12/10. Hmm, good point. Consider it scrapped then. I'd be interested to see how you would go about getting Hearing the Air at level 16
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 02:10 PM	Doh, you are correct sir. Base saves are 13/12/10. Hmm, good point. Consider it scrapped then. I'd be interested to see how you would go about getting Hearing the Air at level 16 Yeah... I forgot about pre-reqs. So screw that guy. Dance of the spider might be kind of nice, again for scouting roles, or just general dungeoneering. Flame's blessing isn't actually that bad -- If you fight wizards or dragons. Shifting defense is nifty, but I'm not sure it's the best. If I had to pick I'd go with dance of the spider.
GaffeR 12-02-06, 02:37 PM	Well, it seems the DM is definately NOT a dipping school. The only way I can see getting any useful maneuvers at higher levels is to suck up a low level 1. To me, Moment of Perfect Mind seems the best. Then we snag rapid counter, as it's cheap which gets us Hearing the Air. Unfortunately, the only maneuver in DM with 1 pre-req is emeral razor. Perhaps leave the progression as is, but swap Avalanche for Quicksilver Motion? This still leaves us with the question: Is Time Stands Still worth it? WRT is fairly similar and the maneuver cost is pretty nuts. Edit: Missed your lvl 17 swap. A DM maneuver for Inferno blade? I suppose it's possible, given how many other boosts we're packing.. Hrmm.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 02:46 PM	Well, it seems the DM is definately NOT a dipping school. The only way I can see getting any useful maneuvers at higher levels is to suck up a low level 1. To me, Moment of Perfect Mind seems the best. Then we snag rapid counter, as it's cheap which gets us Hearing the Air. Unfortunately, the only maneuver in DM with 1 pre-req is emeral razor. Perhaps leave the progression as is, but swap Avalanche for Quicksilver Motion? This still leaves us with the question: Is Time Stands Still worth it? WRT is fairly similar and the maneuver cost is pretty nuts. Yeah, if your DM allows WRT to work on yourself, then I'd totally ditch these DM maneuvers. As you've noted they're a pain in the arse. Some of them are really good (emerald razor, diamond nightmare blade, greater insightful strike, etc), but really what's the justifying factor? The only good thing is that you get Time Stands Still. But you gotta wait 19 levels for that. I try not to gear my practical builds towards 20th level, I like to gear them towards 10th level. So I'm of the opinion that you should pick the best maneuvers possible at the level you're getting them, rather than take a super long range view. Sure you wanna aim for some good maneuvers and watch out for pre-reqs... but that's kind of secondary. Most of the maneuvers we want are in shadow hand and Tiger Claw, so meeting pre-reqs is easy. I prefer shadow blink to quick silver motion and I like having teleporation maneuvers on hand (for dungeoneering reasons). I also think your dungeoneering skills would greatly improve with the dance of the spider stance (which incidentally is shadow hand so you could still get dex-to-damage while in that stance). Moment of perfect mind isn't too bad (for early levels) and neither is rapid counter, but there may be better options.
GaffeR 12-02-06, 02:53 PM	Fortunately my DM takes CustServ quite seriously, so self-WRT shouldn't be an issue. I suppose TSS isn't all the crucial, given that it isn only ONE maneuver of, what, nine? As you mentioned, stopping all the time to refresh is a bit tedious. Also, although my group levels fairly quickly, I can't see being at level 20 any time soon. I suppose your orignal maneuvers list stands, then, eh? Edit: Dance of the Spider vs Dancing Moth... Hrmm..
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 02:55 PM	With a few corrections, like dancing spider for hearing the air, and some of the others we discussed.
Farhaven 12-02-06, 05:51 PM	*Ignore all this and see reason for editing!* I am playing something very similar to this, except I am a Strongheart Halfling permanently reduced to tiny. I have to say, it is working very well. I do 1d2+19 damage. Which is just amusing... Anyway, I wanted to say I did the tiny thing for three reasons... 1) I thought it would be amusing, and it looked cool in my head. 2) With Shadow Hand, it is reducing average damage very little and giving me a +2 to attacks(1 dex and 1 size), and the same to AC. 3) It allows me to primarily use the Giant Killing Style stance for a pretty decent boost to attack and damage(+2 and +4 respectively) I still have access to all the nifty Stormguard Warrior stuff, and I'm really not missing anything I would be getting from other stances.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 06:03 PM	You need to be in a shadow hand stance to get dex to damage. Isn't giant killing stance a setting sun stance?
GaffeR 12-02-06, 06:10 PM	You need to be in a shadow hand stance to get dex to damage. Isn't giant killing stance a setting sun stance? Yep.
Farhaven 12-02-06, 06:58 PM	Yeah, somehow both myself and my DM missed this on first read-through. I don't know how that is possible... but there it is. Luckily I have only played in one combat so it's not that big a deal, but still it is intensely embarrassing.
Areador 12-22-06, 11:48 AM	I really can't figure out what's this "(Shadow Blade)" in the first line of the feats? Is it a weapon? Is it the discipline focus? What is it?! Please answer:confused: . P.s. And thanks for the great build, which serves me as a crash course trough the Tome of Battle
Richmud 12-22-06, 11:51 AM	I really can't figure out what's this "(Shadow Blade)" in the first line of the feats? Is it a weapon? Is it the discipline focus? What is it?! Please answer:confused: . P.s. And thanks for the great build, which serves me as a crash course trough the Tome of Battle Shadow Blade is a feat in ToB that allows for dex to damage
FlimFlam 02-04-07, 11:01 AM	Feats: 1. Adaptive Style, (Shadow Blade), (Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand) Quick question... How are you getting 3 feats at level 1? Are you using flaws, because they aren't listed. If so, what flaws did you take?
Twili 02-04-07, 11:47 AM	Quick question... How are you getting 3 feats at level 1? Are you using flaws, because they aren't listed. If so, what flaws did you take? No flaws, disciple focus is what you get for 1st level of swordsage. (shadowblade I assume is human bonus feat.)
GaffeR 02-04-07, 03:09 PM	Quick question... How are you getting 3 feats at level 1? Are you using flaws, because they aren't listed. If so, what flaws did you take? Like Twili said, Weapon Focus is from SS1's discipline focus. Human gets the other one. Did a big session recently at lvl 8, and have been playing it from lvl 1. This build is quite effective. High attack, high damage, high HP (rolled well), high saves.
neantollo 02-05-07, 06:13 PM	First off, let me say that this build looks wonderful, and thanks for all the work you guys have done on this. I'm replacing my 9th level character in our game with this build, and I had a few thoughts: We are allowed flaws. As one flaw I took Improved Unarmed Strike, moved Two Weapon Fighting Forward, and took Superior Unarmed Strike at 6. I figure that works well, as its the only favored weapon both by both Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw. This allows for Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand), and Insightful Strike (Tiger Claw), adding wisdom to damage on unarmed strikes. So, when in a Shadow Claw stance and executing a Tiger Claw maneuver, you get Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom to damage. Also, I'm thinking of taking Snap Kick instead of Gloom Razor at 12. As T_G mentioned, the more attacks = the better, and I figure the Mongoose maneuvers and Stormguard Warrior would certainly benefit by yet another unarmed attack added on. I don't quite see the benefits of Gloom Razor, what would I be missing? Edit: What do you think of taking the feat rogue variant in place of the fighter levels? You trade Fort improvement for Reflex and trade d10 hit die for d6, but gain Evasion, or even Spell Reflection (from Complete Mage), and gain trapsense, disable device, etc.
RealMad 02-08-07, 12:50 AM	Great build. When I first got TOB, I saw the potential for a non-STR based fighter (finally) and was glad to find that you guys worked out a lot of the details already. Just a few questions though: What Warblade manuevers are you taking? If I read the rules correctly, these are the only ones that the build will be able to realistically recover multiple times in an encounter so they have to be of high value. Also, SwordSage manuevers don't count as pre-reqs for WB maneuvers, do they? That means the build is stuck with low WB maneuvers, right? With regard to Neantollo's comments, is IUS really all that necessary since a lot of the Tiger Claw maneuvers let you use two daggers? Are there some combos I'm missing if I don't have IUS?
Twili 02-08-07, 04:41 AM	Great build. When I first got TOB, I saw the potential for a non-STR based fighter (finally) and was glad to find that you guys worked out a lot of the details already. Just a few questions though: What Warblade manuevers are you taking? If I read the rules correctly, these are the only ones that the build will be able to realistically recover multiple times in an encounter so they have to be of high value. Also, SwordSage manuevers don't count as pre-reqs for WB maneuvers, do they? That means the build is stuck with low WB maneuvers, right? With regard to Neantollo's comments, is IUS really all that necessary since a lot of the Tiger Claw maneuvers let you use two daggers? Are there some combos I'm missing if I don't have IUS? You can recover and change all your maneuvers as a fullround action (due to adaptive syle). And swordsage maneuvers count as pre-requisites for WB maneuvers (as far as I know). Nevertheless T_G posted good list of maneuvers what to take, to get ironheart surge and stormguard warrior.
RealMad 02-08-07, 03:27 PM	You can recover and change all your maneuvers as a fullround action (due to adaptive syle). And swordsage maneuvers count as pre-requisites for WB maneuvers (as far as I know). Nevertheless T_G posted good list of maneuvers what to take, to get ironheart surge and stormguard warrior. Reading Adaptive Style, I got the impression that it only says that you can change your readied maneuvers and, unless you're a Crusader, it doesn't say anything about recovering maneuvers. Also, I read that you should keep maneuvers for martial classes separate (p40, multiclass martial adept) so that should nix using SS maneuvers as pre-reqs for WB. Unless, of course, there's a CustServ response somewhere that clears up the matter...
pfooti 02-08-07, 03:58 PM	Reading Adaptive Style, I got the impression that it only says that you can change your readied maneuvers and, unless you're a Crusader, it doesn't say anything about recovering maneuvers. Ah, but your maneuvers enter "ready" state as readied. So, a swordsage who has expended all of his maneuvers can use Adaptive Style to ready all new maneuvers. Of course, you don't really have to change them, even. It's been established that this use of the feat is RAW and RAI, according to the game designers. It's kind of like Natural Spell for a druid. Something you just have to take at level 6.
RealMad 02-08-07, 04:13 PM	Ah, but your maneuvers enter "ready" state as readied. So, a swordsage who has expended all of his maneuvers can use Adaptive Style to ready all new maneuvers. Of course, you don't really have to change them, even. It's been established that this use of the feat is RAW and RAI, according to the game designers. It's kind of like Natural Spell for a druid. Something you just have to take at level 6. Nice, but can you point me somewhere that will confirm that interpretation? Because, as written, most of my group read that as changing readied maneuvers. If the maneuver is expended, then it is no longer "readied" and therefore, can't be changed. I don't know if they'll take my word for it if I say it's RAI.
GaffeR 02-08-07, 04:33 PM	Also, I'm thinking of taking Snap Kick instead of Gloom Razor at 12. As T_G mentioned, the more attacks = the better, and I figure the Mongoose maneuvers and Stormguard Warrior would certainly benefit by yet another unarmed attack added on. I don't quite see the benefits of Gloom Razor, what would I be missing? I'm not really a fan of unarmed combat. The enchantments are extremely expensive (amulet of mighty fists/natural attacks [SS]) and you'll have a hard time bypassing anything with DR. You could give it a shot, especially with the Swordsage unarmed variant (adaption section). The build as originally posted can't make use of flaws, so unarmed combat was a bit too feat heavy in the first few levels for that purpose. Another issue w/ Snap Kick is the -2 penalty to attack it imposes each time you use it. Hitting will be a bit tricky for a 16 BAB character. Daggers also have the cool factor, IMO. Gloom Razor is just cool, IMO. It synergizes really well with the "requires flat-footed opponent" clause of some SH strikes, lets you slip in and out of invisibility (+2 attack, no dex for defender, concealment), and shadow slip lets you (potentially) keep child of shadows up at all times (Took Child of Shadows and Island of blades for first 2 stances). It also works well with a cloak of displacement. Edit: What do you think of taking the feat rogue variant in place of the fighter levels? You trade Fort improvement for Reflex and trade d10 hit die for d6, but gain Evasion, or even Spell Reflection (from Complete Mage), and gain trapsense, disable device, etc. Bad idea. The Fighter levels get you to 16 BAB. You'll get high ref and will from SS and high ref from BcM. You'll also get evasion (eventually) from SS or from a ring of evasion. Mostly the BAB thing, though. What Warblade manuevers are you taking? If I read the rules correctly, these are the only ones that the build will be able to realistically recover multiple times in an encounter so they have to be of high value. Also, SwordSage manuevers don't count as pre-reqs for WB maneuvers, do they? That means the build is stuck with low WB maneuvers, right? Steely Strike (IH 1), Leading the attack (WR 1), Battle Leader's Charge (WR 1) for the first level, then Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics at 3rd and 4th respectively. Nice, but can you point me somewhere that will confirm that interpretation? Because, as written, most of my group read that as changing readied maneuvers. If the maneuver is expended, then it is no longer "readied" and therefore, can't be changed. I don't know if they'll take my word for it if I say it's RAI. There was a CustServ ruling on this. They've stated that this feat allows maneuvers to be swapped and readied as a std. action. If you compare the SS recovery mechanic to the other two, I think this feat is a necessity. Full round vs Swift vs automatic (SS, WB, Crusader, respectively). It will also refresh your WB maneuvers, in addition to the SS ones. Here's the link: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683775
pfooti 02-09-07, 08:51 AM	Nice, but can you point me somewhere that will confirm that interpretation? Because, as written, most of my group read that as changing readied maneuvers. If the maneuver is expended, then it is no longer "readied" and therefore, can't be changed. I don't know if they'll take my word for it if I say it's RAI. Look in this thread here, under feats. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683775
Angerland 02-11-07, 07:38 PM	Gaffer... I sort of lost track of what you actually ended up with for feats and maneuvers with all of your "hmm what about this" with TG, could you or TG, post your final variants? I am planning a two wepon fighter for a future campaign and just bought the ToB yesterday...so any help would be great....p.s. mine will be a drow (players guide to forgotten realms) maybe or some other race witha dex bonus.
GaffeR 02-11-07, 10:37 PM	I'm only up to lvl 10 right now, but here's what I've gone with. The rest are things I am certainly planning to take. Swordsage: 1: Burning Blade Wolf Fang Strike (prefer this to SBTechnique, as it allows for 2 hits) Shadow Blade Technique (rare use) Sudden Leap Charging Minotaur Stone Bones (rare use) 2. Counter Charge 3. Flashing Sun 6. >Swap Charging Minotaur for Feigned Opening 7. Soaring Raptor Strike 11. Dancing Mongoose 12. Pouncing Charge >Swap Shadow Blade Technique for Bloodletting Strike 14. Searing Blade 15. Rabid Bear Strike >Swap Stone Bones for Shadow Stride (or something else damaging - but utility is nice) 16. Swooping Dragon Strike 17. Inferno Blade >Swap Wolf Fang Stike for Shadow Blink 18. Raging Mongoose 19. One with Shadow 20. Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike >Swap Stone Bones or Soaring Raptor Strike for a ninth level maneuver you qualify for (TC 9, SD 9, DW 9, depending on needs) Warblade: 1: Leading the Attack* (rare use) Battle Leader's Charge* (frequent use to close) Steely Strike (rare use) 10: Iron Heart Surge* (badass) 13: White Raven Tactics Stances: Swordsage: 1. Island of Blades 2. Child of Shadows 11. Assassin's Stance 16. Utility stance (Dance of the Spider, Dancing Moth, or Flame's Blessing, depending on my needs then) Warblade: 5. Punishing Stance That's probably the order I'd take them. Obviously maneuvers readied depends on where you are and what you're fighting. If you need to stay mobile, less boosts and more high damage std actions. If you can slog it out, boosts and TWFing. I usually have a movement option (sudden leap) for now, in case I need to get out or in ASAP. Pick your own maneuvers to suite your style, though. The only necessities IMHO are the Burning blade trilogy and the Dancing X duo, as this is a TWFing build and benefits from more damage per hit. Otherwise, movement, high single attack maneuvers (TC and some SH are good for this), and utility will round out the rest. Drow is a bad idea.. a very very bad idea. Setting aside the +2 LA for now, their favored class is Wizard or Cleric (you need Fighter or anything). They also don't get a bonus feat, which sucks, as you have to shuffle everything down which completely screws the progression. Stongheart Halfling would potentially work, but I still think human is better for the speed, skills, and no penalty to Str. My BBlade is actually a Dark Human, which has been fantastic for Hide in Plain Sight (Dark is in Tome of Magic). This thing shells out damage like no one's business by level 9, but I find myself getting bored of the lack of spellcasting versatility.
Angerland 02-11-07, 11:40 PM	Thanks for the quick assist. Drow will ony be set if I can find the stats from Players Guide to Faerun, I guess the drow in there do not have a+2ECl, so something about there stats must be different. I am going with drow because I am supposed to be from Xen'drik (DM giving me Drow Skirmisher Feat from Races of Ebberon for free). Feats can be tweaked with out too much trouble I think, it's really the manuevers and such that really overwhelmed me.
RealMad 02-12-07, 02:59 AM	This thing shells out damage like no one's business by level 9, but I find myself getting bored of the lack of spellcasting versatility. Have you considered, or know of a build, that keeps good damage dealing but is more mobility-oriented? I like the Shadow Hand discipline and am looking for something that plays a little more on the Hide angle than Stormguard Warrior. Because I would rather keep my AC high and/or be evasive than stand there trading full attacks with an opponent. It also seems kind of risky to me to spend a round making touch attacks and only start dealing damage the next round. Any suggestions?
GaffeR 02-13-07, 02:19 AM	Have you considered, or know of a build, that keeps good damage dealing but is more mobility-oriented? http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=666169 http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9054561&postcount=24 Those two pop to mind. Also, anything with scout is good. Scout 3/Ranger 17 with the new CompScoundrel feat is solid. To keep withing ToB: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10464951&postcount=3 Because I would rather keep my AC high and/or be evasive than stand there trading full attacks with an opponent. It also seems kind of risky to me to spend a round making touch attacks and only start dealing damage the next round. My swordsage had AC 29 at lvl 8. He also has an obscene ammount of hp due to the high dice rolled (and good rolls). Also, you don't have to sacrifice an entire round of attacks. You can swap out any or all (hint: those you think will miss) for a damage bonus next round. Get a cloak of greater displacement (50% miss chance) later on and mix with Gloom Razor for some fun with the invisibility clause. This character CAN be hidey/swift. You just need to not TWF. Swap to child of shadows, tumble in, hit with a high damage std action maneuver, then sudden leap out (or shadow blink out later).
RealMad 02-14-07, 04:35 AM	My swordsage had AC 29 at lvl 8. He also has an obscene ammount of hp due to the high dice rolled (and good roles). Also, you don't have to sacrifice an entire round of attacks. You can swap out any or all (hint: those you think will miss) for a damage bonus next round. Get a cloak of greater displacement (50% miss chance) later on and mix with Gloom Razor for some fun with the invisibility clause. This character CAN be hidey/swift. You just need to not TWF. Swap to child of shadows, tumble in, hit with a high damage std action maneuver, then sudden leap out (or shadow blink out later). I cant use the Raptorans or the Dark template, I'm afraid (although the Dark template may be slightly possible for me to get the DM to agree to). We also generally have low magic campaigns, which is the DMs way of preventing completely balance breaking optimization. That said, I'm going to try to play the BB more evasively but do you have any ideas for evasive feats? I have a fighter level or two coming. Thanks.
RealMad 02-14-07, 11:07 AM	One more thought: Do you think this build would do well with HiPS, even though it doesn't have tops SA damage. It'll be hard to meet the prereqs for ShadowDancer but assuming I drop the Stormguard tree and take levels in Rogue (possibly instead of Warblade even) so that I can get the minimum in Move Silentranks, I figure I could make it. Would it even be worth it though? Mild SA damage isn't fun but the ability to disappear from a battle may be worthwhile. Doesn't really matter if the opponent can hear footsteps, they can swing and the build would still gain the benefit of concealment, possibly fueling more GloomRazor benefits.
GaffeR 02-14-07, 02:44 PM	Swordsage has move silently and hide as class skills. The build does pretty well with HiPS. I use it mainly (dark template) for getting a bit more bonus to hit. I really don't think it's worth Stormguard Warrior, but that's given the style of this build. There are a ton of cloak-and-dagger builds in the ToB build compendium. I'd suggest you try there. Find what you like, pull out pieces, and make your own build.
Tektonik 02-19-07, 02:47 AM	Which stance are you currently using? Obviously not Punishing stance because then you can't use shadow blade.
GaffeR 02-19-07, 02:56 AM	At this level, usually Island of Blades, as it facilitates easy flanking and higher to-hit. If I'm fighting solo, or can flank the normal way, I may swap to Child of Shadows.
Tektonik 02-19-07, 11:41 AM	At this level, usually Island of Blades, as it facilitates easy flanking and higher to-hit. If I'm fighting solo, or can flank the normal way, I may swap to Child of Shadows. Then why have iron heart aura as a feat?
Valanthe 02-19-07, 12:47 PM	Then why have iron heart aura as a feat? Stromguard Warrior.