Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramses III 01-15-05, 12:57 AM	How about a thread on the best classes (base and PrC) to take for a 1-level dip? To make this as useful as possible, please post the source of the class and the key benefits for level 1. To start: Barbarian [Player's Handbook] (+1 BAB, fast movement, rage) Monk [Player's Handbook] (+2 all saves, Wis to unarmored AC, bonus feat, flurry of blows, unarmed strike, 1d6 unarmed damage) Ranger [Player's Handbook] (+1 BAB, +2 to 2 saves, favored enemy, Track)
Snarf 01-15-05, 01:09 AM	Marshall, Determined Caster Minor Aura (+Cha bonus to penetrate SR)
warok 01-15-05, 01:33 AM	halruaan elder(shining south): -1 to the cost of ONE metamagic feat dragonslayer(draconomicon): full armor and martial weapon prof., +1 bab, good fort and will saves, and +1 to spellcasting lore master(DMG/srd): a possible feat if high int runesmith(races of stone): rune magic = no somatic component = no ASF harper mage(magic of faerun): simple weapons, 4+int skill points, psedo bardic knowledge that stacks, free skill focus in any knowledge, level 2 gets another mystic wanderer(magic of faerun): cha to ac contemplative(complete divine): bonus domain
catharz 01-15-05, 01:44 AM	Mind posting sources? Ardent dilettante [Planar handbook]: All skills as class skills! Wohoo! Marshal (again) [Miniatures handbook]: Motivate charisma: Add Cha to Cha checks!!! Shadow adept [Player's guide to Faerun]: Three Shadow magic feats! Shiba protector [Oriental adventures]: Wisdom to damage. Exotic weapon master [Complete warrior]: Weapon stunt. Iaijutsu master [OA] 1: Int to AC. Kabuki warrior [Drg 298] 1: Int to AC. Witch hunter [OA, Drg 318] 1: Cha to saves. Cleric 1: 2 domains, Turn undead (for turning feats), 1st level spells, good Fort and Will, and 1st level divine spells!
Ramses III 01-15-05, 01:51 AM	Good idea, Catharz.
Lellindil 01-15-05, 02:55 AM	wild mage from complete arcane, use this class + practiced spellcaster for +d6 caster level for all your spells.
Lord_kakamo 01-15-05, 02:58 AM	Mindbender (tome and blood) I believe it grants +1 BAB, +3 will and fort saves, telepathy to 100ft, +1 caster level and +5 to either diplomacy intimidate bluff or sense motive.
LordArkan 01-15-05, 03:01 AM	Mindbender was reprinted in Complete Arcane. +0 BAB, +2 Fort and Will, Telepathy 100ft, +1 Arcane Caster level
Alratan 01-15-05, 08:00 AM	Spelldancer: +0 BAB +2 Wil, +2 Ref, Spelldance, i.e free persistent metamagic +1 caster level. Harsh reqs
Suldarr'essalar 01-15-05, 09:42 AM	Elocator (XPHB) +2 Ref, Will, sidestep charge feat, scorn earth (always fly 1ft above ground + levitate), +1 level of manifesting class (psionic).
Lord Likk 01-15-05, 12:23 PM	spellsword (complete warrior): 1 lvl of spellcasting, +1 b/a, -10% arcane spell failure, and i think high fort and ref exotic weapon master (complete warrior): i think this has already been mentioned, but it's worth noting that, for that weapon stunt, you can gain 2x your str bonus to damage while wielding one-handed exotic weapons in two hands. that's a lot of damage for a frenzied berzerker. frenzied berzerker (complete warrior): frenzy 1/day, +1 b/a, d12 hd, and i think maybe a power atk bonus (can't remember when they get the first one). warshaper (complete warrior): immunity to crits and sneak attacks bear warrior (complete arcane): +4 extra str, and, i think, +1 size category while raging. great for qualifying you for warshaper ronin (complete warrior): +1 b/a and +1d6 sa berzerk (deities and demigods): +1 b/a, berzerk 1/day, which stacks with rage and gives you +6 str rogue (phb): +1d6 sa and really good skills. makes a good first level ranger (phb): high ref and fort and almost as a good saves, as well as +1 b/a. also makes a good first level sublime chord (complete arcane): starts to gain 4th-9th lvl arcane spells from both the bard and sor/wiz lists. great with fochlucan lyrist, mystic theurge, and even eldritch knight ur-priest (complete divine): starts to gain 1st-9th lvl divine spells from a smaller list (offensive stuff only, i think). great with fochlucan lyrist or mystic theurge or even the new true necromancer apostle of peace (book of exalted deeds): starts to get 1st-9th lvl divine spells, but only defensive stuff. still great with lyrist or theurge yathrinshee (player's guide to faerun): gives you a huge caster lvl for necromancy, and i think spells in one arcane and divine class, all at lvl one nar demonbinder (unapproachable east): starts to get 4th-8th lvl arcane or divine spells froma decent, though small, list, and can use dictum, holy word, etc. as any alignment version of the spell assassin (dmg): +1d6 sa, decent skills, a couple of spells, and it has almost no requirements! guild thief (forgotten realms campaign setting): +1d6 sa, only requires skill points shadow thief of amn (player's guide to faerun): +1d6 sa, requires one feat and skill points fighter (phb): +1 b/a, d10 hd, and a bonus feat from a huge list
Lilt 01-15-05, 12:43 PM	Sorry to nit-pick: UrP is not from a smaller list, it gets the full cleric list albeit without initial access to domain spells. When the progression finishes, the UrP does have a net of fewer spells per day than cleric 20, but it can be used to get 9th level spells at level 14. Blighter is the one with a smaller spell selection. Spellsword has high fort and will. Other than that the rest seem right.
allenchan 01-15-05, 01:09 PM	Contemplative, extra domain (and I hardly think that frenzied beserker or warshaper or bear warriorare good for just 1 level dips)
ck2001wendt 01-15-05, 01:22 PM	Exemplar (Complete Adventurer): All skills as Class Skills, +4 to one skill, Skill Mastery for 1+Int Skills. Tremendous for Rogues.
Lord Likk 01-15-05, 01:36 PM	Contemplative, extra domain (and I hardly think that frenzied beserker or warshaper or bear warriorare good for just 1 level dips) well frenzied berzerker is worth continuing, but it still gives you a lot at lvl one. more than berzerk gives you, really, which is in almost every big fb build. are you kidding, though? warshaper is the most front-loaded class in the game! the progression of its abilities is basically backward. you give me another class that gets immunity to crits and sneak attacks at lvl one and i'll edit it out of my post. bear warrior qualifies you for warshaper, and it's a lot better than hengeyokai.
Reticent 01-15-05, 02:25 PM	Ninja [Complete Adventurer] (Wis bonus to AC, good Ref save, +2 to Will save, +1D6 damage to targets which are for whatever reason denied a Dex bonus- this also counts as 1D6 Sneak Attack for purposes of meeting PrC and Feat requirements) Oh, and strong skills.
catharz 01-15-05, 03:23 PM	Likk, I've got to agree with allenchan. Frenzy 1/day, while powerful, is not worth a 1-level dip. It just has too many drawbacks, and the benefits of continuing the PrC are much greater. Similarly, Warshaper is at least a 2 or 3-level dip. If you're taking the PrC anyway, not getting the +5' reach, +4 Str and Con, +1 all saves, and +2 BAB is just silly. And Hengeyoki is better for Warshaper, IMO, than Bear warrior 1 (as is Lycanthropy) when you can only rage 1-3 times per day. Bear warrior 5 starts tipping the scales. Still, you got some of the best spellcasting class dips. I had forgotten about 1 level spellcasting then PrC classes.
ck2001wendt 01-15-05, 04:01 PM	Templar (Complete Divine): +1 BAB, two good saves, and Mettle (the Fort/Will Evasion...the only PrC in the game that gives it, I believe).
Lord Likk 01-15-05, 05:08 PM	it gives you +2 to an ability score, and once per day you can turn into a small, fuzzy animal that gets warshaper abilities if you have them. not only that, but it slows you down a level in prc acquisition. bear warrior, on the other hand, not only provides you with hit points, +1 b/a, some sort of save bonus, and at least a few skill points. it also gives you +4 str (albeit while raging), and gets you those warshaper abilities whenever you rage. in my book, that's better than whenever you cast polymorph self and whenever you turn into a rabbit. as it doesn't get anything other than scent for the next 4 levels, it doesn't make much of a more-than-one-level dip. i'll grant that bear warrior makes a valid central prc for a barb (still, only to lvl 5), but it's no frenzied berzerker by a longshot, making it primarily useful as a 1 level dip for the qualification of warshaper, if one wishes to include that in one's frenzied berzerker. how many levels would you take in it in an fb/warshaper build?
The Thing in the Night 01-15-05, 05:22 PM	Swashbuckler (complete warrior):d10 hit die, free weapon finesse, 4 skill points base...good start for a fighter, good dip for a rogue. (mind you, 3 levels for int to damage is worth taking also)
Anguirus23 01-15-05, 05:53 PM	^ Swashbuckler only has good Fort saves, but starting at level 2 they get a bonus to Reflex saves.
lonewolf 01-15-05, 06:06 PM	Psychic Rogue(Minds Eye) as rogue but with 2 fewer skillpoints and one psychic power. Solid choices for this power is Force Screen or Compression Psychic Warrior(XPH) as Fighter but -1BAB, more Feats to choose from and one Psionic power(although I like PW2 much more)
Snicker-Snack 01-15-05, 06:08 PM	Soldier of Light [Deities and Demigods] for Turning without the loss of a Bab point (and it has easy requirements too).
RadicalTaoist 01-15-05, 08:16 PM	Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries [Draconomicon] nets you evasion. The feat prereqs bite though. Hoardstealer [also Draconomicon] is another way to get trapfinding. Plus it starts you into a spell list with all the cool low level utility arcane spells. Vassal of Bahamut [Book of Exalted Deeds] gives you, for free, a nonmagical set of armor that only members of that class can wear and that beats the hell out of any other armor nine times out of ten. MW Chain Shirt with Full Plate's AC bonus!!!
lostone 01-15-05, 08:22 PM	Sorceror or Wizard for True Strike, Expeditious Retreat and Prestidigitation (and all the other useful 1st & 0 level spells). My group still prefers to use the 3.0 Ranger so we have houseruled to use that as an optional variant.
Timespike 01-15-05, 09:17 PM	Rogue (but only at first level) (Int+8) * 4 skill points from the best list in the game, an exotic weapon proficiency 9hand crossbow) and a sneak attack die. Bard (int+6) skill points, some useful cantrips, good will and reflex saves, Bardic music, bardic knowledge, several good weapon proficiencies
Impeesa 01-16-05, 01:08 AM	Soldier of Light [Deities and Demigods] for Turning without the loss of a Bab point (and it has easy requirements too). Another one that isn't just a one-level dip. Stick around for the second level to pick up Divine Grace. :) --Impeesa--
Battousai 01-16-05, 03:20 AM	Maho Bujin (OA) : to get iterative attacks as a 3.0 monk
catharz 01-16-05, 04:32 AM	it gives you +2 to an ability score, and once per day you can turn into a small, fuzzy animal that gets warshaper abilities if you have them. not only that, but it slows you down a level in prc acquisition. bear warrior, on the other hand, not only provides you with hit points, +1 b/a, some sort of save bonus, and at least a few skill points. it also gives you +4 str (albeit while raging), and gets you those warshaper abilities whenever you rage. in my book, that's better than whenever you cast polymorph self and whenever you turn into a rabbit. as it doesn't get anything other than scent for the next 4 levels, it doesn't make much of a more-than-one-level dip. i'll grant that bear warrior makes a valid central prc for a barb (still, only to lvl 5), but it's no frenzied berzerker by a longshot, making it primarily useful as a 1 level dip for the qualification of warshaper, if one wishes to include that in one's frenzied berzerker. how many levels would you take in it in an fb/warshaper build? Firstly, thank you for the derisive anti-Hengeyoki comments, those were needed. Now remember that 1) Hengeyoki have a hybrid form with natural attacks and 2) they have the [Shapechanger] subtype which means that they get all Warshaper benefits, constantly (human, hybrid, and animal). So remember the Vorpal Bunny? Better watch out ;) Secondly, what is this about "delaying PrC entry?" The loss of one feat will rarely delay PrC entry, and I think thats that is still worth the always-on benefits of the [Shapechanger] subtype. And as for the FB/Warshaper build... I don't think that it is a very good combo. Any FB worth his salt should be a SadoMasochist, and Fortification just gets in the way. But, if I had to make a FB/Warshaper build, I would probably go Changeling Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warshaper 4/Frenzied berserker 10. Last to levels? I dunno. Hexblade would be good. A much better use of Warshaper (and Bear warrior) IMO is the following: Dream dwarf [RoS] Ranger [Drg 326] 2/Monk 2/Fighter 1/Deepwarden [RoS] 2/Singh rager [OA] 4/Bear warrior [CW] 5/Warshaper [CW] 3 1:Ran 1 |-------------------------------|+1 | 2/2/0 |1d8 2:Ran 1/Mnk 1 |-------------------------|+1 | 4/4/2 |2d8 3:Ran 1/Mnk 2 |-------------------------|+2 | 5/5/3 |3d8 4:Ran 2/Mnk 2 |-------------------------|+3 | 6/6/3 |4d8 5:Ran 3/Mnk 2 |-------------------------|+4 | 6/6/4 |5d8 6:Ran 3/Mnk 2/Ftr 1 |-------------------|+5 | 8/6/4 |5d8+1d10 7:Ran 3/Mnk 2/Ftr 1/DW 1 |--------------|+6 |10/6/6 |5d8+1d10+1d12 8:Ran 3/Mnk 2/Ftr 1/DW 2 |--------------|+7 |11/6/7 |5d8+1d10+2d12 9:Ran 3/Mnk 2/Ftr 1/DW 2/SR 1 |---------|+8 |13/6/9 |5d8+1d10+3d12 10:Ran 3/Mnk 2/Ftr 1/DW 2/SR 2 |--------|+9 |14/6/10|5d8+1d10+4d12 11:Ran 3/Mnk 2/Ftr 1/DW 2/SR 2/BW 1 |---|+10|16/6/10|5d8+1d10+5d12 15:Ran 3/Mnk 2/Ftr 1/DW 2/SR 2/BW 5 |---|+14|18/7/11|5d8+1d10+9d12 16:Ran 3/Mnk 2/Ftr 1/DW 2/SR 2/BW 5/WS 1|+14|20/7/11|6d8+1d10+9d12 18:Ran 3/Mnk 2/Ftr 1/DW 2/SR 2/BW 5/WS 3|+16|21/8/12|8d8+1d10+9d12 19:Ran 3/Mnk 2/Ftr 1/DW 2/SR 3/BW 5/WS 3|+17|21/9/12|8d8+1d10+10d12 20:Ran 3/Mnk 2/Ftr 1/DW 2/SR 4/BW 5/WS 3|+18|22/9/13|8d8+1d10+11d12 Not entirely my own build, but a rockin' good time!
Snicker-Snack 01-16-05, 07:59 AM	Another one that isn't just a one-level dip. Stick around for the second level to pick up Divine Grace. True that. But it's still a respectable one level dip when all you need is turning (or when you don't have the extra levels to spare... it happens constantly with some of my bard builds) :). And just one more thing: yathrinshee (player's guide to faerun): gives you a huge caster lvl for necromancy, and i think spells in one arcane and divine class, all at lvl one Actually, Yatrinhshee just gives you the Caster Levels in it's second level :).
ronyon 01-16-05, 11:33 AM	Ninja [Complete Adventurer] (Wis bonus to AC, good Ref save, +2 to Will save, +1D6 damage to targets which are for whatever reason denied a Dex bonus- this also counts as 1D6 Sneak Attack for purposes of meeting PrC and Feat requirements) Oh, and strong skills. How strong are the skills? I love to start with a rogue level for the 8 skill point multiple, and I am anticipating the Ride skill being on the Scout list(Mongel/ Indian style light cavelry here I come!), but I have always coveted the Monks Wis to Ac bonus, so if the Ninja has 6 or better skill points, I think Im in love... Also, does that(Dodge?) bonus stack with armor? Or does it work like the Monks? Thanks for the Info- A Rump Fed Ronyon.
Fălenganor 01-16-05, 12:14 PM	Maho-Tsukai from OA. Why? Just check: Cleric 3(for Initiate of Mystra)/ Wizard 3/ Maho-Tsukai 1/ Mystic Theurge 7/ Dweomerkeeper 6 Casts as: Cleric 3 Wizard 3 Maho-Tsukai 21(wizard and cleric spells) Cleric 3(for Initiate of Mystra)/ Wizard 3/ Maho-Tsukai 1/ Mystic Theurge 9/ Dweomerkeeper 4 Casts as: Cleric 3 Wizard 3 Maho-Tsukai 23(wizard and cleric spells) The advantage? You can take con damage to persist stuff(if you have persist), including Divine Power. Get Apostle of Mystra. After you take that con damage you just have to use a PERSISTANT SHAPECHANGE!
rakhir 01-16-05, 12:32 PM	Sacred Exorcist (CD) -- gives turning and advances any spellcasting class. +2 will save, +0 BAB.
kokujin 01-16-05, 02:15 PM	Sacred Exorcist (CD) -- gives turning and advances any spellcasting class. +2 will save, +0 BAB. is this any spellcasting class or just divine?sorry at work and away from my books.
rakhir 01-16-05, 02:48 PM	is this any spellcasting class or just divine?sorry at work and away from my books. You need to be able to cast dismissal or dispel evil to qualify for the class. The spellcasting progression adds to any class that allows you to qualify for sacred exorcist. Dismissal is on the sorceror/wizard list, so this class would work nicely to get a wizard turning attempts to power divine metamagic.
Lord Likk 01-16-05, 03:12 PM	catharz, hengeyokai doesn't lose you a feat (except a human bonus feat), it just delays getting one by a level. it also delays your max skill points, your base attack bonus, and any spellcasting you may have for a level, which, between them, delay acquisition of almost all prestige classes. bear warrior provides the fist two, but not the latter of course. if you don't normally include warshaper in an fb build, what would you put in its place in that build? i don't mean to get all petty here, but i think a human brb1/ftr4/berzerk1/bearwarrior1/warshaper3/frenzied berzerker5/war hulk4/exotic weapon master1 could kick the **** out of both of those builds, perhaps at once. that one level dip in bear warrior is highly integral to such a build, as, i'm sure, you can see. now that i think about it, though, this guy may not even be able to hit the stone warden. what's his ac at lvl.20? what does that dragon magazine issue number after the ranger mean? is it a variant or something? falenganor, the old oa maho-tsukai is no longer legal. if we were playing magic: the gathering, it would be banned in type 1. one could easily achieve spell dc's well above 50 before level 10 using that class, besides the ridiculousness you mentioned. it is now the tainted sorcerer in unearthed arcana, which makes a similarly good one level dip, but for one problem: once you've taken that one level, every time you do level, you have to make a will save (dc=10+taint score) or take another level in it. it makes a good epic class. if you can somehow pass these will saves whose dc's will probably equal 10+((wisx2)-1), while your wisdom will probably equal 1, it does make an absolutely insane one level dip. auspician can do that, though i've found no other method.
Cunning Gnome 01-16-05, 04:20 PM	Warlock complete arcane for spiderclimb all day! :)
The Thing in the Night 01-16-05, 06:40 PM	In the OA update in dragon 318 (official update, by the way) the hengeyoki now has no LA. The shaman also just became a lot more powerful (a druid's animal companion, multiple domains, monk unarmed combat, cha to saves...etc)
Fălenganor 01-16-05, 07:01 PM	falenganor, the old oa maho-tsukai is no longer legal. if we were playing magic: the gathering, it would be banned in type 1. one could easily achieve spell dc's well above 50 before level 10 using that class, besides the ridiculousness you mentioned. it is now the tainted sorcerer in unearthed arcana, which makes a similarly good one level dip, but for one problem: once you've taken that one level, every time you do level, you have to make a will save (dc=10+taint score) or take another level in it. it makes a good epic class. if you can somehow pass these will saves whose dc's will probably equal 10+((wisx2)-1), while your wisdom will probably equal 1, it does make an absolutely insane one level dip. auspician can do that, though i've found no other method. The only significative difference between the Maho-Tsukai and the Tainted Sorcerer is the limit on what you can metamagic by taking con damage. Where is it written that the Tainted Sorcerer substituted the Maho-Tsukai? I know they're almost equal, but could you tell me where it is specifying that? On the same topic, how can you raise DCs to well above 50? Taint? Thanks.
catharz 01-16-05, 11:16 PM	bear warrior provides the fist two, but not the latter of course. if you don't normally include warshaper in an fb build, what would you put in its place in that build? Warchanter 3, and a way to get bardic music. i don't mean to get all petty here, but i think a human brb1/ftr4/berzerk1/bearwarrior1/warshaper3/frenzied berzerker5/war hulk4/exotic weapon master1 could kick the **** out of both of those builds, perhaps at once. that one level dip in bear warrior is highly integral to such a build, as, i'm sure, you can see. Frenzied berserkers are some of the most disruptive characters around. Remember the bit about "if she takes damage from and attack, spell, trap, or any other source, she automatically enters a frenzy at the start of her next action, as long as she still has one daily useage of the ability left. To avoid entering a frenzy in response to to a provoking effect, the character must make a Will save (DC 10+ points of damage taken since her last action) at the start of her next turn." Even if that build can make the DC 20 Will save to not kill all of his allies (which I seriously doubt), he has still lost a daily use of frenzy to a pit trap or something. And almost never will you come across an amount of HP damage small enough that you can reasonably make the will save to not go off. Even with Cumbrous will, Holy liberator, and Greater resistance. Those 3 frenzies will run out pretty fast with a canny DM. And don't forget that when you Frenzy and then go bear, you loose the Frenzy Str bonus. You have to Rage, turn into a bear, and then Frenzy to get the benefits of both (and some DMs won't even let you do that). So sure, your build is great if you want to kill other peoples characters. But that is rarely the goal of D&D. Secondly, "No time to think" means that your character won't contribute any skills either. And I noticed that you took 3 levels of Warshaper :P now that i think about it, though, this guy may not even be able to hit the stone warden. what's his ac at lvl.20? what does that dragon magazine issue number after the ranger mean? is it a variant or something? The variant ranger just gets Power attack rather than Rapid shot or TWF. Nice for the build, but by no means vital. AC at level 20? Assuming a starting Con of 16 (Being a dwarf and all), he has a Con of 33 in bear form, or 39 with a +6 item. Using a Wild +1 tower shield and Wild +1 mechanus gear armor (from Planar handbook, a total cost of 36,280 gp), that gets to be 10+14(Con)+5(Natural)+11(Armor)+5(Shield )-1(Size) for a total of 44. If you throw in Command-word Magic vestiment 2/day (CL 20, 43,200 gp), 50. With Expertise and Improved expertise it can get up to 68. For damage, a necklace of natural weapons with Metaline, Ghost touch, and possibly Wrathful healing evens things out. If you can, Command-word Greater magic fang (or GMW) 1/day (CL 20, 21,700 gp) is nice. With combat brute (and the Singh pounce) it makes for pretty respectable damage. With a starting str of 14, it gets to 34 in bear form (wih no tems), which isn't bad even at that level. And while it may not be immediately apparent (in fact I forgot when first writing this post), you can make a full unarmed attack and still attack with all of your natural weapons as secondary attacks. Because he can easily afford a 13 Int, he can do tripping as well (nice with 15' reach), and can provide some valuable skills. But I do see what you mean about Bear warrior as a dip class. One levels is probably good for most builds.
Ualaa 01-17-05, 01:31 AM	Ninja is a D6 class, with (6+INT) skills per level. Her WIS bonus to AC works like a monks, "... When unarmored and unencumbered, a ninja adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her Armor Class. This ability does not stack with the monk's AC bonus ability (a ninja with levels of monk does not add the bonus twice). In addition, a ninja gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five ninja levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th)."