Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Claggart 02-19-06, 12:46 AM	I am re-entering a game on Monday and I want to make a decent Gish build. I previously played a half-minotaur Monk but someone took over my character when I had to leave the game. Some details: *Free* +2LA race/template Stats 18,16,15,14,14,10 Start at 4th level The above makes for very powerful characters, but the game is based on desperation and danger. We are in a strange world that we (the characters) don't know much about. Everyone seems to be an ememy and the characters have not been able to find many safe places, much less allies. The DM is cheap with XP, money, and magic. The characters look powerful, but they are in a really difficult environment (think old Darksun where you started at lvl 3 just to survive). What I want: The party is in need of Arcane casting and a secondary combatant. I can use PHB, Complete books, BoED, DMG, MM, FRCS. Most important is a build that will be fun/effective at low levels. The game has been running for 8 months and the characters are just now 4th level. We will never get past 10th. The party consists of: Half-Minotaur Monk Shifter Druid Earth Gensai Fighter Human Cleric (with bonus background feats) Half-Elf Bard (NPC) I am researching the Gish library, but in the mean time...suggest away! Thanks.
Impeesa 02-19-06, 01:24 AM	Pick your favorite basic heavy melee charisma-based gish. Be a half-minotaur deathtouched. Net +12 str, +4 chr, etc. Both are from Dragon #313, which you appear to already have. --Impeesa--
Surreal 02-19-06, 01:55 AM	Given the party composition, I'd be more inclined to go with a charisma/skill monkey role (sure you already have a bard, but I never trust the DM with NPCs :D ). Personally, I really like the half-vampire template. Nice flavour and abilities, best of which is the ability to charm people at will. Works well for both gish and rogue builds.
scrollreader 02-19-06, 02:53 AM	Drow aren't a bad race. 'Specially if it's a free LA. SR is rare/otherwise unobtainable at lower levels, and the int boost and the favored class: Wizard aren't bad news at all. Alternatively, snag an outsider (Tiefling, mayhaps?) and a handy template. Being an outsider is /all/ kinds of fun for a gish. (Polymorph). EDIT: And it comes with All Martial Weapon Proficiencies. Can't ask for more than that, with your gish. Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 5 is a very solid build to 10. Gets you fifth level spells, and BAB +7. Snag a twilight mithril chainshirt, and a twilight mithril shield, and have fun.
the shaderaven 02-19-06, 03:52 AM	Well I'm not expert optimiser or sth. and prefer to play character that share some theme instead of being coldly calcullated pile of the most suitable classes but still... that is what came to my mind: Illumian Saint Sorcerer 1/Eldritch Knight 7/Soldier of Light 2/Spellsword 1 Str 20 Dex 14 Con 17 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 20 Feats: Precocious Apprentice [CA], Improved Sigil (Krau) [RoD], Power Attack, Improved Buckler Deffence, Divine Might; Flaw: You need one flaw to pull this baby. Spellcasting: Sorcerer spells known (6/8/8/5, DC 17+Spell Level, Caster Level 9th); 0-7; 1st-5; 2nd-3; 3rd-2 (two of those spells are automatically heightened by one level); Soldier of Light spells known (3, DC 15+Spell Level, Caster level 4th); 1st-all (bless weapon, detect evil, shield of faith, invisibility to undead, etc. can spontaneously cast CLW); Spell-like abilities (at will, DC 17+Spell Level, Caster Level 10th); 1st-guidance, resistance, virtue and bless; Tongues at will, caster level 14th. Nothing special but it is decen spellcasting for a gish... you miss the 4th level spells, but you gain emergency healing, bless weapon and your DCs are more than respectable so you arent restricting to buffing spells. You also project permanent globe of invoulnerability and double strength protection from evil from wich both you and your allies can benefit. You also can translate for them. Protection: Saves Fort +18 Ref +9 Will +14; +4 resistance vs evil thanks to protection aura and +4 vs poison. AC AC 10+3 Insight (Wis)+2 Dex+1(mithral buckler)+5(mithral breastplate)=21. +4 deflection vs evil thanks to protective aura; Immune to: acid, cold, electricity, petrification; also immune to charm, compulsion and possession or any harmfull spell of level 3 or lower or melee attacks from summoned creatures thanks to potective aura. Resistance: 10 fire. DR 5/evil. Fast Healing 5. Well... that is with zero magic items. I think its quite respectable. Offense: Attack +14/+9 masterwork greatsword 2d6+7/19-20 + 1d6 holy vs evil (1d8 vs undead and outsiders)... nothing spectacular, not add wraithstrike, divine might and power attack for mare 5 to it: +15/+15/+10 masterwork greatsword 2d6+23/19-20 ignoring physical armor bonuses - enough to make them feel the pain while at the same time augumenting your party. I didnt included Arcane Strike, because you wanted to act as a secondary spellcaster and that doesn't include burning through your spellslot in my oppinion. In coclusion you will be a support character who a) can offer both offensive (haste) and deffensive (lesser globe of invoulnerability, double magic circle vs. evil) abilities to his allies. b) simply wont die and wont need healing c) has respectable enough melee abilties to keep you from getting bored and when need arise can significantly increese his melee output. Plus I really like how the illumian nimbus goes with the saint thing :angel: The bad thing is this build includes Soldier of Light from Deities and Demigods and illumian from Races of Destiny which now i see that you might not be able to squeeze in. Ah, well... I still like the idea.
Talen Lee 02-19-06, 03:56 AM	A Draconian (Dracomonicon) Catfolk. Gish often have trouble maximising their actions - having access to Pounce (and an overall fat set of stat boosts, natural armour increases, and claw attacks) can only be a good thing. Plus, access to Rapidstrike with those natural attacks of yours.
Sang-Drax 02-19-06, 08:26 AM	BoED Half-Celestial is +2 LA. I guess it's pretty much every Cha Gish's dream: +4 Str/Con/Wis/Cha, +2 Dex/Int. You don't have access to h-c's spell-like abilities, though.
Father Dale 02-19-06, 08:52 AM	Better than the Half Celestial is the Saint, also from the BoED. Aside from the +2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Dex, you get Damage Reduction, Fast Healing, Tongues, Protective aura (constant double strength magic circle plus lesser globe of invuln), darkvision, low light vision, immunity to 3 energy types and resistance 10 to a fourth, and a nice +2 boost to the save DCs of all your spells, abilities, special attacks, etc. And a few other things on top of it. All that for just a +2 LA. The Saint makes an icredible basis for a Paladin/Sorcerer based Gish.
Claggart 02-19-06, 10:01 AM	Thanks for the input so far. I'm drawn to the Cha-synergy based characters as well but I wasn't sure how to maximize it. The DM's bard is under-utilized and the party is probably in desperate need of a faceman. What are the best combos for taking advantage of high Cha? Paladin/Bard? Paladin/Socerer? Isn't there a base class in the CV that uses Cha? I've been out of the loop for a while and I have forgotten the names of a lot of feats and such. Isn't there a feat (or a class feature) that gives Cha to damage?
Sang-Drax 02-19-06, 10:34 AM	Thanks for the input so far. I'm drawn to the Cha-synergy based characters as well but I wasn't sure how to maximize it. The DM's bard is under-utilized and the party is probably in desperate need of a faceman. What are the best combos for taking advantage of high Cha? Paladin/Bard? Paladin/Socerer? Isn't there a base class in the CV that uses Cha? I've been out of the loop for a while and I have forgotten the names of a lot of feats and such. Isn't there a feat (or a class feature) that gives Cha to damage? Bard 8/Paladin 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 3 is one of the most effective builds around. - Sacred Exorcist (CD) grants Turn Undead. Gab the feat Divine Might and add Cha to damage when you burn a turn attempt (there you go). - Devoted Performer (CAdv) will let you multiclass between bard and paladin and lets you smite evil as a 10th level paladin. - +2 Inspire Courage - which means +4 with the Words of Creation feat (BoED). - Too bad you're not allowed to use Frostburn. There's a feat in there called Snowflake Wardance that lets you add Cha to hit when using one-handed slashing weapons. - Star Elf (Unapproachable East) would be a nice race to go with. +2 Cha/-2 Con.
Father Dale 02-19-06, 10:58 AM	If you are wanting a Diplomacy build, then Paladin/Bard would work, although there are alignment issues with that. There is a feat in Comp Adventurer called Devoted Performer that will let you multiclass Paladins and Bars (still need to be lawful good though) as well as add Paladin and Bard levels together for smite evil damage and the number of times you can do the Bardic Music each day. You can take that feat at lvl 3 assuming you have at least one level in each class. A more power based approach would be the Paladin/Sorcerer gish. Two levels of Paladin for Cha to saves. Then Sorcerer heading into Spellsword. Eventually shoot for Sacred Exorcist. (This takes some planning because of the skill and spell requirements of Sacred Exorcist). That will give Undead Turning (Paladins don't get it till level 4), medium BAB, full spellcasting, and some very nice abilities. Use your spells to enhance melee combat. This type of build realy comes together at higher levels though, and it can be tough to pull off early on; however, with the Cha to saves and Paladin basis there is a good bit of survivability. In any event, a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 8/Spellsword 1/Sacred Exorcist 9 would give, at lvl 20, BAB 13 and 18th lvl sorcerer spells. (There are better builds for maximizing BAB and caster level, but they usually can't get Divine Might and Arcane Strike, Charisma to saves, and Spontaneous Wraithstrike spells.) Another option is a level or two of monk and the Aesthetic Mage feat, giving some extra monk feats, Evasion, and Charisma to AC (if not wearing armor). If realy want to get the BAB up then drop a Limited Wish to cast Divine Power.
SkaIsStillCool 02-19-06, 01:36 PM	Where is the feat Precocious Apprentice? I am not seeing it in the feats section of Complete Arcane.
Khazra Reborn 02-19-06, 02:31 PM	A Draconian (Dracomonicon) Catfolk I'd second this as a great base for a gish. +2str,+4dex,+2con & a whopping +6cha. Athough at level10 a gish can be effective, at lowlevels you pretty much suck, especially in a campaign like yours. So i have 3 options which i personally think are better: a)warmage. 3/4 BaB, armour and higher HD make this a good option.very poor spell selection make this a harder deal. b)warlock. again, 3/4BaB, armour and higher HD are good. Your evocations are actually pretty good but no where near as versatile as a wizard or sorcerer. c)wizard/sorcerer10. Use your templates to get a high str race with a decent natural attack routine. Half miotaur catfolk seems decent (2claws and a gore with pounce and 50ft movement could be nasty). This one is a VoP candidate if your allowed ;)
ninjarabbit 02-19-06, 04:19 PM	You might want to consider the battle sorcerer from UA since you have such a low level game that won't go very high. d8 hit dice, cast in light armor, 3/4 BAB, and since the campaign is at a low level you barely be worst than a normal sorcerer spellcasting-wise.
Tempest Stormwind 02-19-06, 04:21 PM	Where is the feat Precocious Apprentice? I am not seeing it in the feats section of Complete Arcane. Check the Campaigns section. It's in a sidebar, along with Collegiate Wizard.
SkaIsStillCool 02-19-06, 04:33 PM	Thank You.