Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Savani 01-09-06, 10:20 PM	anyone know where i can find this? all the crazy ac threads just abuse persistant spell and polymorphing cheese. I want what someone can get with the basics not by finding a loophole in the rules.... persistent is a loophole.
Savani 01-09-06, 10:21 PM	Heres my poor attempt wis start at 18, nothing else matters cause you simply shapeshift to get dex. +6 Periapt of Wisdom +5 Tome of Understanding +3 age for 36 wis= +13bonus Ring of Shrinking +2size bonus Boots of Speed +1 dodge bonus Bracers of Armor +8 Monk's Belt(for wisdom) +6 Gloves of Dexterity +5 Vest of Natural Armor Skills: 5 ranks of Tumble(+3 ac fight defensively) Feats: Combat Expertise(+5ac)Dodge (+1AC) +4 defending weapon thats 55 with no real cheese. you can choose many different shapeshifts i guess i like huge air elemental (-2 size, +9 Dex, +4 natural), for 11 more AC and 5/- DR taking you up to 66AC...and you can fly.
mellowship 01-10-06, 07:23 AM	anyone know where i can find this? all the crazy ac threads just abuse persistant spell and polymorphing cheese. I want what someone can get with the basics not by finding a loophole in the rules.... persistent is a loophole. OK, so no FR, no Persistent, and no Polymorph... Let's see what we can do. One trick you see a lot with these builds is getting as many stats to apply to your AC as possible. Here's an example: Take a grey elf. Pump Int, Dex, and Cha. Put all level-up points into Cha. 1: Swashbuckler 1. Weapon Focus: Rapier, *Weapon Finesse. 2: Fighter 1. *Dodge. 3: Fighter 2. Endurance, *Combat Expertise. 4: Monk 1. *Improved Unarmed Strike, *Improved Grapple. 5: Sorcerer 1. 6: Sorcerer 2. Combat Casting. 7: Tattooed Monk 1. Tattoo: Unicorn. 8: Tattooed Monk 2. 9: Bladesinger 1. Mounted Combat. 10: Bladesinger 2. 11: Bladesinger 3. 12: Bladesinger 4. Ascetic Mage. 13: Spellsword 1. 14: Champion of Corellon Larethian 1. *Improved Combat Expertise. 15: Champion of Corellon Larethian 2. Practiced Spellcaster. 16: Tattooed Monk 3. Tattoo: Scorpion. 17: Tattooed Monk 4. 18: Tattooed Monk 5. Arcane Preparation. Tattoo: Bellflower. 19: Tattooed Monk 6. 20: Tattooed Monk 7. Tattoo: Dragonfly. Now, let's assume you have a 32 point build, with stats allocated like so: Str 10 (4 pts, -2 grey elf) Dex 16 (6 pts, +2 grey elf) Con 12 (6 pts, -2 grey elf) Int 16 (6 pts, +2 grey elf) Wis 8 (0 pts) Cha 21 (10 pts, +5 level-ups) Let's assume further that by 20th level you can get ahold of +6 stat boosters for Int, Dex, and Cha, and that you can get +4 tomes for Int and Dex, and a +5 tome for Cha. That will put your final stats at Str 10 (+0) Dex 26 (+8) Con 12 (+1) Int 26 (+8) Wis 8 Cha 32 (+11) Now get some +8 bracers of armor, +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of natural armor, boots of speed, and a monk's belt. Your AC, even before the first round of combat, is 10 +8 armor (bracers) +5 nat armor (amulet) +5 deflection (ring) +8 Dex +8 Int (Bladesinger) +11 Cha (Ascetic Mage) +3 monk bonus (Monk+Sorcerer+Tattooed Monk+belt) =58. Now, in the first round of combat, activate your boots of speed, tap your dragonfly tattoo, use your Bladesinger Song of Celerity to throw up a quickened Shield, and Alter Self into a troglodyte. This adds +1 haste (boots) +4 dodge (Dragonfly tattoo) +4 shield (Shield spell) +6 natural armor (Alter Self) for 15, which, when added to your earlier 58, gives a total of 73. Once you actually mix it up in combat, you can fight defensively and Expertise up to your BAB, for an extra +3+16=+19, or +20 against your Dodge opponent, for a total of 93. And if you really want to go wild with the AC, you can start tapping your Bellflower tattoo to boost your stats further. Boost your Cha first (to 37, for a +13 modifier), then boost Dex and Int (to 33, for a +11 modifier). That adds another +2, +3, and +3 to AC, for a grand total of 101 against your Dodge opponent and 100 against everyone else. At this point, or even before, any monster short of epic would need a natural 20 to hit you. But wait, there's more! 4 times a day, the Scorpion tattoo lets you make your opponent use his *lowest* stat to attack with, making you even harder to hit.
ArochanoX 01-10-06, 08:57 AM	Remember that different kinds of bonuses don't stack. For example troglodyte NA and amulet of NA don't stack.
Sisyfos 01-10-06, 09:24 AM	EDIT: removed
terulian 01-10-06, 09:53 AM	Just for a laugh... some things I remember for stats to AC Iaijutsu Master = either Int or Cha for AC Monk = Wis to AC of course, but monk's belt does that too Dwarven Defender = Con to AC Duelist = Int to AC As far as I know, there is no way to get Str to AC, otherwise we'd be able to make a build (albeit probably very epic) that got every stat to AC. Probably some of them redundantly. On another note, has anyone else noticed that all the high AC builds hinge on wearing NO armor, aside from the DD?
Sisyfos 01-10-06, 10:22 AM	On another note, has anyone else noticed that all the high AC builds hinge on wearing NO armor, aside from the DD? Yes, I've noticed that too. Its really weird. No armor gives more armor ( ;) ) and better mobility.
mellowship 01-10-06, 10:45 AM	Remember that different kinds of bonuses don't stack. For example troglodyte NA and amulet of NA don't stack. Actually, they do: the troglodyte NA is a natural armor bonus, while the amulet is a natural armor *enhancement* bonus. They stack. Check the description of the Barkskin spell. Just for a laugh... some things I remember for stats to AC Iaijutsu Master = either Int or Cha for AC Monk = Wis to AC of course, but monk's belt does that too Dwarven Defender = Con to AC Duelist = Int to AC If you want Int to AC, Bladesinger (or Iaijutsu Master) is better than Duelist, because the Duelist's AC bonus is limited by his class level. One of those dumb 3.5 nerfs. As to whether the monk's belt gives Wis to AC, that's debatable. Some DM's won't let you do that. I know Living Greyhawk doesn't. The Ascetic Mage feat switches the monk's Wis to AC to Cha to AC. For Con to AC, I think you meant the Deepwarden. On another note, has anyone else noticed that all the high AC builds hinge on wearing NO armor, aside from the DD? That's actually not too surprising. Once you get your Dex cranked up past a certain level, the Max-Dex-to-AC from armor starts to bite. Plus there's the issues with monks, etc.
cvazi 01-10-06, 10:49 AM	The Useless Coward (SRD Only) Base Stats (before AC run) Str: 8 (2 points - 2 Racial) Dex: 32 (6 points + 2 Racial + 5 Levels + 5 Inherent + 6 Enhancement) Con: 17 (6 points + 3 Inherent) Int: 20 (6 points + 6 Enhancement) Wis: 18 (6 points + 4 Inherent + 4 Enhancement) Cha: 19 (6 points - 2 Racial + 1 Inherent + 6 Enhancement) Feats: 1. <blank> 3. Combat Expertise 6. Expanded Knowledge: Thicken Skin 9. Expanded Knowledge: Compression 12. Superior Expertise 15. Expanded Knowledge: Psychofeedback 18. Leadership Powers: Force Screen, Inertial Armor, Precognition: Defensive, Mental Barrier, Assimilate Traits: Cautious Items: Skin of the Defender, 32k Torc of Power Preservation, 36k Amulet of Natural Armor, 50k Belt, Monk's 13k Gloves of Dex +6, 36k Cloak of Charisma +6, 36k Headband of Intellect +6, 36k Morning Stars +5 Defending, 72k Morning Stars +5 Defending, 72k Book of Cha +1, 27.5k Book of Con +3, 82.5k Book of Wis +4, 110k Book of Dex +5, 137.5k ========== 740.5 Put on Torc of Power Preservation Force Screen (24pp augment) Inertial Armor (26pp augment) Precognition: Defensive (24pp augment) Compression (6pp augment) Thicken Skin (24pp augment) Switch Torc for Amulet of Natural Armor Assimilate follower PsychoFeedback (+6 Surge) (+26 Dex, -11 Str, -15 Con) PsychoFeedback (+6 Surge) (+26 Wis, -11 Int, -5 Con, -10 Cha) Move +5 Enhancement from both weapons to AC Full Combat Expertise Defensive Fighting Activate Boots of Speed Mental Barrier (20pp augment) Base +10 Shield +10 (Force Screen) Armor + 17 (Inertial Armor) Insight +9 (Precognition: Defensive) Size +3 Enhancement +9 (Thicken Skin) Base +4 (Skin of the Defender) Enhancement +5 (Amulet of Natural Armor) Dex +28 Wis +19 Unnamed +1 (Monk's Belt) Unnamed +10 (Defender Weapons) Dodge +15 (Combat Expertise) Dodge +2 (Defensive Fighting) Dodge +1 (Cautious) Dodge +1 (Boots of Speed) Deflection +9 (Mental Barrier)
Neopopulas 01-10-06, 10:50 AM	A character i have, level 15 (needed mostly for the gold) 43 AC Mithral +5 Mountain plate (Races of Stone) (15 AC) +5 Extreme Shield (Races of Stone) (8 AC) +3 Dex +5 Ring of Protection Heavy Armour Optimization (Feat; Races of Stone +1 AC) Greater Heavy Armour Optimization (Feat; Races of Stone +1 AC) Total: 43 AC with only 'standard' feats, no particular class abilities or spells. I suppose you could use Dwarven Defender to get +4 dodge. Most high AC builds nowadays are mostly made without armour because most STAT bonuses to AC require no, or light armour.
Savani 01-10-06, 06:06 PM	Sorry i forgot to clarify, no prestige classes core books only and monks belt CLEARLY states If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. so did i miss anything in my build?
Sisyfos 01-10-06, 06:13 PM	Heres my poor attempt wis start at 18, nothing else matters cause you simply shapeshift to get dex. +6 Periapt of Wisdom +5 Tome of Understanding +3 age for 36 wis= +13bonus Ring of Shrinking +2size bonus Boots of Speed +1 dodge bonus Bracers of Armor +8 Monk's Belt(for wisdom) +6 Gloves of Dexterity +5 Vest of Natural Armor Skills: 5 ranks of Tumble(+3 ac fight defensively) Feats: Combat Expertise(+5ac)Dodge (+1AC) +4 defending weapon thats 55 with no real cheese. you can choose many different shapeshifts i guess i like huge air elemental (-2 size, +9 Dex, +4 natural), for 11 more AC and 5/- DR taking you up to 66AC...and you can fly. I noticed some problems: 1) Air elementals don't wear belts, 2) they dont wear vests 3) they dont wield weapons, 4) they don't wear bracers 5) they don't wear rings 6) they don't wear boots Hmm...
Savani 01-11-06, 08:41 AM	you forgot they dont wear gloves either... what core monsters do?
Sisyfos 01-11-06, 11:49 AM	you forgot they dont wear gloves either... what core monsters do? If you go druid you can at level 17 cast shapechange instead of wildshape. There are medium humanoid shaped forms that could use most if not all of those items you listed. Astral deva comes first to mind: good stats, +14 natural armor, etc. Planetar is similar shaped, but large. Enlarge (how ever casted) also makes your equipment bigger. That followed by shapechage into planetar and you could also wear your equipment. I am certain there are also medium sized humanoid shaped forms that can match or get very close to the planetar's stats. Then there is the WILD armor and wild shields that meld into your wildshape form. Cast magic vestment on them and you get +5 items that meld into your forms. Nice bonuses from those too if you prefer wildshaping to shapechanging. Then there is the option that is somewhat debated: wildshape into legendary ape for a form thats pretty humanoid shaped and could arguably keep wearing plenty of those items you listed. The problem is that legendary ape is 3.0 monster so this option is up to DM approval. Many of those items you listed could be replaced by spell effects? If so, then spells carry on to your other forms also. If you are not making a druid (I just somehow got that impression originally) then you have polymorph and PAO at your usage perhaps. Those have more humanoid forms available than wildshape has so you will not face that many problems using your items in your different forms. Sisyfos
SureFoot 01-11-06, 12:11 PM	and monks belt CLEARLY states If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. Which to my interpretation clearly does NOT state that a non-monk gains the monk class ability of applying Wis to AC, only the monk class abilities of an AC bonus of +1 and higher than normal unarmed damage. So how do you interpret your quote?
Rhonin the Big 01-11-06, 01:11 PM	I had a dwarf build in heavy armor I used as an NPC, gave him greater heavy armor optimization with adamantium fullplate and a heavy shield. The heavy shield is further enhanced as a weapon and was given defending, his waraxe named Ralfnar was +5 throwing returning defending distance parrying. His levels were fighter/ranger/deepwarden2/dwarven defender10, while in his defensive stance with maxed out con his AC goes upto 67! My friend had a tiefling ninja duelist, with high int wis and dex. His ac starts at 61, but when he fights defensively it goes upto 75 (combined with a defending spiked gauntlet and greater two-weapon defence). Later I reread the fight defensively action in my PHB and it clearly states you cannot use combat-expertiese in combination with fighting-defensively, which Im glad you cant because his AC would be 95! Originally Posted by terulian On another note, has anyone else noticed that all the high AC builds hinge on wearing NO armor, aside from the DD? I agree, when I was lower levels I asked the druid why his AC is as high as mine and he says "because I actually wear armor." Now I have to explain to ercur the untouchable ninja duelist why my samurai's AC sucks ass and I say "because I actually wear armor." Whats the highest AC anybody ever got in heavy armor? Mine was 68 with Jonas Kiltablaze, the dwarf defender +13 armor bonus from +5 adamantium fullplate +7 shield bonus from a +5 heavy bashing shield +1 insight bonus to AC from the parrying enhancement (it costs 8,500gp) +2 armor bonus from the feats heavy armor optimization and greater heavy armor optimization +1 unnamed bonus to AC from dwarf fighter racial substitution +4 dodge from dwarven defender +5 deflection from ring of protection +12 from deepwardens con to AC ability, not limited by immobility =48 at base Now I go into my defensive stance and use both defending properties of Ralfnar and shield and fight defensively. +4 for fighting defensively +2 AC from the +4 bonus to con +4 dodge bonus to AC +10 defending =68! Now thats an immovable object! And even better, his armor and shield are adamantium giving him DR11/-, 6/- if struck by another adamantium weapon.
Savani 01-11-06, 07:23 PM	thats a good point on the monk belt, what book are the wild clips or whatever they are at? the items that attach to your existing magic items to make them shift with you? may have to 1monk/19druid
Savani 01-11-06, 07:24 PM	the main problem with armor wearing high ac, your touch ac sucks... where as the armorless ones still have great touch ac polymorph is great, as is shapeshift, but im looking for ALL DAY , and without persistant... no go.
Rhonin the Big 01-11-06, 08:30 PM	You have crappy touch ac but a sneak attack needs to find a chink in that armor of yours. Think of your character over the course of his adventures, is he touched more or caught flatfooted more? A simple eldritch blast can drill through that armor, but rogues can deny you your dex and your int to your AC easier and easier as they level-up. One of my halfling builds had confound the big folk, underfoot combat and a wondrous item that lets him shrink to tiny, if I cant get my sudden strike with that combo I'll simply use ghost step. Oh, and if you want some extra effective monk level there's a divine relic in Complete Divine called Gauntlets of the Talon. It gives you +5 to your monk level for AC, Unarmed Damage (which is now slashing) and ki strike which all stack with monks belt, but you gotta worship Bahamut and have the True Believer feat with 7HD so it might be worth the sacrifice. Or if you prefer high AC from true inner power just take a vow of poverty, get weapon finesse and in addition to monk take 10 duelist (Or 1 Iaijutzu master, which is a broken piece of crap and should get a PrC facelift or implode) you might have higher AC with a vow of poverty than with stuff.
PhaedrusXY 01-11-06, 08:43 PM	Later I reread the fight defensively action in my PHB and it clearly states you cannot use combat-expertiese in combination with fighting-defensively, which Im glad you cant because his AC would be 95!You read it wrong, then. They most certainly do stack. This was clarified in a FAQ.
Rhonin the Big 01-11-06, 09:31 PM	My mistake, I looked at fight defensively in my 3.5 PHB and it says it stacks with combat expertiese.
Savani 01-11-06, 10:03 PM	You have crappy touch ac but a sneak attack needs to find a chink in that armor of yours. Think of your character over the course of his adventures, is he touched more or caught flatfooted more? A simple eldritch blast can drill through that armor, but rogues can deny you your dex and your int to your AC easier and easier as they level-up. One of my halfling builds had confound the big folk, underfoot combat and a wondrous item that lets him shrink to tiny, if I cant get my sudden strike with that combo I'll simply use ghost step. . AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. so you only lose dex bonus not the big wisdom etc, you drop to the 50s OH NO!!!
PhaedrusXY 01-11-06, 10:31 PM	Savani, do everything that you did, but maximize your Charisma also, and Shapechange into a Nymph instead of an Air Elemental. Nymphs get Charisma to AC as a deflection bonus (and Charisma to saves...).
Rhonin the Big 01-12-06, 09:13 PM	Savani, do everything that you did, but maximize your Charisma also, and Shapechange into a Nymph instead of an Air Elemental. Nymphs get Charisma to AC as a deflection bonus (and Charisma to saves...). Unbodied also get charisma as a deflection bonus, and incorporeal miss chance. So its a choice of a hot and sexy fey girl or a psionic brain ghost. As for wisdom bonus to AC ... sleight of hand. I shove a ring of force shield on your fingers when you least expect it!
Savani 01-13-06, 05:31 PM	and because of 2 ring rule, i choose to not have that ring function... i found nymph great callout(very druidy too), i cant find brain ghost tho... ahh just found, druid can do Animal, then Plant , then Elemental... no nymphs or ghosts :( that and druids only gain the Su Ex Sp of Elementals not plants or animals
Savani 01-14-06, 08:36 AM	so any new all day suggestions?
Rhonin the Big 01-16-06, 12:49 PM	Unbodied is from Xpanded Psionics Handbook, they are a medium incorporeal monstrous humanoid. Shapechange into them instead of Nymph and you get charisma to AC as well as incorporeal miss chance. I personally hate changing into other creatures to get their stuff, so I would abuse what I can get. Thri-kreen monk/duelist with 4 +5 defending kamas, dex+int+wis+12 to AC when Im done, more if I fight defensively and take greater multiweapon defence, not including AC buff items like bracers of armor, ring of protection and amulet of natural armor. and because of 2 ring rule, i choose to not have that ring function... Then while your busy taking it off I sleight of hand some leather armor on you. :P
PhaedrusXY 01-16-06, 01:01 PM	i found nymph great callout(very druidy too), i cant find brain ghost tho... ahh just found, druid can do Animal, then Plant , then Elemental... no nymphs or ghosts :( that and druids only gain the Su Ex Sp of Elementals not plants or animalsI was talking about using the Shapechange spell, not Wildshape. Shapechange lasts for 10min/caster level, which is pretty much all day at the high levels, and gives you all Supernatural and Extraordinary abilities of the form you use. A Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell is only 24,500 gp, and with that your Shapechange spell will last a minimum of 340 minutes.
Arismir 01-16-06, 01:27 PM	That's great. What are you gonna do for the other 1,100 minutes in the day?
Savani 01-16-06, 04:28 PM	That's great. What are you gonna do for the other 1,100 minutes in the day? HAH.
Rhonin the Big 01-16-06, 07:11 PM	That's great. What are you gonna do for the other 1,100 minutes in the day? Rely on your own defences for a change? :eek: OH NO! He couldnt do that! Maybe its the paladin within me, but everything CO revolvs around turning into something else and I think thats cowardly. The gods gave you a body, to transform into somebody elses is a sin against them! And besides, Savani wants to see how high he can get his AC WITHOUT polymorphing for a change ... I know, what a radical move!
Savani 01-16-06, 07:45 PM	im confused now, are you glad im looking for alternatives or being sarcastic?
Rhonin the Big 01-16-06, 08:13 PM	I hate people who abuse other monsters abilities, and like the fact that you are steering away from that.
Savani 01-17-06, 03:33 PM	well sadly it seems the CO boards are scared to OPTIMIZE without abuse... there are many neat powerful things in these forums, but other than playing with munchkins no real gamer will take you seriously if you play them... they will laugh and tell you to make a real character. Our circle of friends avoids polymorph etc because its so broken it takes the fun out of the game, we dont use it and the BBEGs dont use it.
Rhonin the Big 01-18-06, 10:09 PM	Polymorph is only as broken as the monster you polymorph into. Wanna fix polymorph? Dont turn into sarruhks turn into balanced things like animals and elementals. But yea, I dont use polymorph either. I wont be surprized if I see the same person who made pun-pun all up in the PrC boards saying the Master of Many forms is overpowered. Doesnt it make people feel filthy using classes and abilities they think is overpowered? I built a hulking planet hurler the other day for an ECL20 gestahlt fight club, he can throw 3,250 tons of raw earth dealing upwards of 32,000d6 of damage, the die roller on this website cant even roll that! Lets just say his big ass never saw the light of day. But if you want high AC without persistent spells and polymorph, there are many ways to go. Ninja/duelist with weapon-finesse works, dex+int+wis+2 to AC and thats without any combat feats, I would do twin elven thinblades with the defending and parrying enhancement, greater two-weapon defence, improved combat expertiese and the dodge chain. You can get a base AC in the late 50s early 60s and make you unhittable if you fight defensively. As for race, something small for extra AC using tactics like underfoot combat and get up in a trolls face, or something cheesy like thri-kreen with 4 rapiers of defending.