| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Willie the Duck09-25-05, 06:22 PM | I've just discovered the arcane heirophant and thought it was a wonderful idea for a class. It is a support caster like the mystic theurge, but it can shapechange into bear or bird, have a animal conmpanion (only a few levels behind a straight druid), and can cast arcane or divine spells while in druid armor . The question is how to make it competitive. Our campaign is 9th level, but we are very low-treasure. We use most of the books, and are mostly 3.5 (we use 3.0 dr and durations for cat's grace like spells) I was thinking either a human druid4/wizard3/Arcane Heirophant2 or Killoren Druid3/Sorcerer4/AH2 (high Cha synergizing with the Killoren's aspect of the destroyer). Obvious feat choices would include natural spell and two copies of practiced spellcaster. Beyond that, what else? What other feats would work well? Arcane strike could help burn some of the wizard spells you end up not needing or the massive number of sorcerer slots for some extra combat damage. A high cha Killoren sorcerer with Arcane strike and Killoren destroyer shaped as a charging rhino delivers a whollop that you don't get up from. Of course, if you're doing this, why not just play a gish and get some more hp? Extend spell on top of our (3.0 duration) 2nd level buffs stay up a long time, and the "cure x damage per turn for 10+lvl rounds" in all the different non-core books that druids get (often at lower levels than clerics) are extra nice when extended. Improved initiative and Improved toughness have universal application, as do the saving throw pumpers. Anyone else have any good ideas? Also, what spells are good choices? the spells will always be a level or more behind a straight caster (although the caster level will be the same, with practiced spellcaster), and MAD means that the saves will be lower. Buffing and defensive will be necessary, as will battlefield control. Mirror image and displacement are good choices for keeping him alive despite his hp, but he needs to do more than just survive. I'm thinking the entangle, briar web, stone spikes field for the druid spells, and maybe some utility mage spells like levitate or web. Does anyone have any other ideas? |
| 20goingon123209-25-05, 06:35 PM | Actually, AH levels STACK with druid levels for determining Animal Companion physical abilities. Add to that, AH levels stack with wizard levels to determine Animal Companion special abilities (especially the Intelligence; do you want to know what a Dire Ape with an Int of 12 can do? *shudders*). The iconic AH build is Drd3/Wiz3/MT2/AH10/MT2. That nets you 9th level spells from both wizard and druid, although your saves other than Will will suck as will your BAB. But hey, who casts spells on a cute lil hummingbird :D ? Feats I'd go for are: Level 1: Spellcasting Prodigy (Wizard) Level 3: Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) Level 6: Improved Initiative Level 9: Spell Penetration Level 12: Natural Spells Level 15: Greater Spell Penetration Level 18: Quicken Spell (for Automatic Quicken at epic levels; otherwise, it is free) The reasoning is that you use your druid side to buff and utility, while your wizard side is for combat-goodness. So you max out SR penetration and save DC for that component. I do the same for Cerebremancer builds (only I do it on the Psion component). I am not too sure if it is optimal. If it isn't I hope the masters here will correct me. |
| Mysk09-25-05, 06:36 PM | the most common build that springs up with arcane heirophant I believe is a wizard3/druid3/mystic theurge 4/arcane heirophant 10 for 9th level spells in both druidic and wizard. I personaly don't know wether it was clarified that you had to be a 5th level druid or not in order to benefit from the arcane heirophants personal aditions ot the wild shape class feature... someone else will probably enlighten us both on that... feat choices would be practiced spellcaster for both. again not sure about natural spell as i'm not positive you would gain wildshape in my above post. Hm... Extend spell is a great feat for this build, you seem to have a good grasp of what you know you want. More later if needed. Hope this helped some... A final question/comment is what do you want out of the build persay? Do you want to be the ultimate in utility... or a blend of arcane/druidic/claws? Primary caster or a combat monster I guess. though as primary a caster as you can 3 levels behind straight casting classes. |
| 20goingon123209-25-05, 06:47 PM | I personaly don't know wether it was clarified that you had to be a 5th level druid or not in order to benefit from the arcane heirophants personal aditions ot the wild shape class feature... someone else will probably enlighten us both on that... It has been clarified. Druid and AH levels stack, so you don't have to have it when you start being a AH to gain access to it. |
| Mysk09-25-05, 06:54 PM | many thanks. |
| Inkling09-25-05, 07:27 PM | Check out Dragon Magazine #325 p. 60 for theurgic feats you can use with AH combos. A great one is Theurgic Bond which lets you combine your arcane levels with your divine levels to determine the powers/category of your animal companion. Combined with Practiced Spellcaster, you can have high-level companions at mid-level. Example: practiced spellcaster + 3rd wizard, 3rd druid, 2nd MT, 2nd AH = animal companion from the 10th level category and/or 10th level powers. |
| 20goingon123209-25-05, 07:57 PM | Check out Dragon Magazine #325 p. 60 for theurgic feats you can use with AH combos. A great one is Theurgic Bond which lets you combine your arcane levels with your divine levels to determine the powers/category of your animal companion. Combined with Practiced Spellcaster, you can have high-level companions at mid-level. Example: practiced spellcaster + 3rd wizard, 3rd druid, 2nd MT, 2nd AH = animal companion from the 10th level category and/or 10th level powers. I don't think Practiced Spellcaster allows you to do that. It only applies to spells you cast, not your level in general... |
| CubeKnight09-25-05, 10:41 PM | What does everyone think about taking Wu Jen levels instead of Wizard levels? They net you a bonus feat, a spell secret, and the ability to reroll Init, instead of only getting Scribe Scroll. Also, they are thematically more in line with druid spells, what with all their spells being divided in elements instead of schools; and their non-lawful requisite is shared by the Arcane Hierophant. However, I find their spell list a bit lacking. I honestly couldn't find 4 good enough level 2 spells for my Wu Jen 4 in another game. Also, one of their advantages over a wizard (a bit more variety, with some druid-like spells) isn't that important here, since you get many of those spells in your druid list. Also, if you go Grey Elf (or any other subrace you want), you can take the oh-so-wonderful Elf Wizard Sub level, which lets you prepare an additional spell each day. But then again, this might not be so important, as you should have lots of spells per day already. So... Wu Jen or Wizard? What's the general opinion about this? And, on the same line, Grey Elf or Human? Human gives you the always-nice bonus feats, and extra skill points. However, Being a Grey Elf gives you access to the aforementioned racial sub level, and the +2 Int means you end up with the same ammount of skills, and all the other benefits of increased Int. So, you end up only giving away your bonus feat. Also, being an Elf Wu Jen means exp penalties, if your DM doesn't ignore them. Perhaps go with Grey Elf if you take Wizard (for the sub level) and go Human if you take WuJen (for the favored class)? |
| XrP-Leon The Second09-25-05, 10:49 PM | Go with a gray elf (+dex and +int) and take the elf paragon wizard at first level. WuJen is nice, but doesn't get a familiar, either making the class ability to mix that with your animal compaion moot, or wasting a feat. |
| pfooti09-25-05, 10:51 PM | I'd go either Gray Elf or Varana. Varana, especially if you go Wu Jen. Varana's a +0 LA class from OA that gives +2 int, +2 wis. The bonus to the stats, especially in a multi-attribute caster system, is pretty huge, IMO. |
| 20goingon123209-25-05, 10:53 PM | Vanara tends to get nerfed by DMs only wanting to play in traditional campaigns and disallow OA stuff... Wu Jen, at least, is in the Complete books, IIRC. |
| CubeKnight09-25-05, 10:55 PM | Go with a gray elf (+dex and +int) and take the elf paragon wizard at first level. WuJen is nice, but doesn't get a familiar, either making the class ability to mix that with your animal compaion moot, or wasting a feat. Actually, I thought the same when I saw that the Wu Jen didn't have a familiar. But then I went and checked the Arcane Hierophant, and, as weird as it sounds, you don't need to have a familiar to get the Familiar Companion! It says "You must dismiss your companion, if you have one.", meaning that there's no problem if you don't have one! |
| XrP-Leon The Second09-25-05, 11:05 PM | Ok. So, is a perminant meta-magic'd level 0,1, or (maybe?) 2 level spell worth 1 extra level 9 arcane or divine spell/day?] Of it's not worth it, do the racial paragon for wizard elves. |
| fnord09-25-05, 11:07 PM | What does everyone think about taking Wu Jen levels instead of Wizard levels? They net you a bonus feat, a spell secret, and the ability to reroll Init, instead of only getting Scribe Scroll. Also, they are thematically more in line with druid spells, what with all their spells being divided in elements instead of schools; and their non-lawful requisite is shared by the Arcane Hierophant. However, I find their spell list a bit lacking. I honestly couldn't find 4 good enough level 2 spells for my Wu Jen 4 in another game. Also, one of their advantages over a wizard (a bit more variety, with some druid-like spells) isn't that important here, since you get many of those spells in your druid list. Also, if you go Grey Elf (or any other subrace you want), you can take the oh-so-wonderful Elf Wizard Sub level, which lets you prepare an additional spell each day. But then again, this might not be so important, as you should have lots of spells per day already. So... Wu Jen or Wizard? What's the general opinion about this? And, on the same line, Grey Elf or Human? Human gives you the always-nice bonus feats, and extra skill points. However, Being a Grey Elf gives you access to the aforementioned racial sub level, and the +2 Int means you end up with the same ammount of skills, and all the other benefits of increased Int. So, you end up only giving away your bonus feat. Also, being an Elf Wu Jen means exp penalties, if your DM doesn't ignore them. Perhaps go with Grey Elf if you take Wizard (for the sub level) and go Human if you take WuJen (for the favored class)? I would go Wizard over Wu Jen; the Wu Jen's spell list is limited, and more Sor/Wiz spells are printed with each new book. Plus, you have to burn a feat to get familiar benefits for you companion. Also, wizards let you specialize. You don't need the extra slots (much), but that gives you access to Theurgic Specialist (same article as the other Theurgic stuff), to shoot your caster level with one school (transmutation, maybe?) sky-high. Human/Grey Elf: If your starting at high levels, Grey Elf all the way! +2 int is great. At low levels, though, when your character is sucking anyway, -2 con sucks. I'd say human if you're playing from level 1. |
| X-Codes09-25-05, 11:22 PM | If you don't care as much about the number of 9th level spells you get, then dropping one or two levels of MT for Sacred Exorcist will let you hit DM and persist a Draconic Polymorph or Shapechange (depending on the exact wording of the feat, it's one I don't have memorized). This might not seem special until you make yourself an Illumian and work your bonus spells off Strength. Until then you can always just Wildshape into a Dire Bear or something for when you sleep. |
| Inkling09-25-05, 11:23 PM | Here's a sweet trick, if you haven't already thought of it: take your druid levels first (esp. first level so you get the extra skill points), then take 2 levels of wizard (taking practiced spellcaster along the way so your wiz CL is 5) then take Mindbender 1 as your 6th level...it gets you your 3rd wizard level giving you access to 2nd level spells qualifying you for MT and AH PLUS you get a nifty Telepathy power out of it. And since you just happened to gain your 6th level, spend your new feat on Mindsight from LoM (which you qualify for since you just got the Telepathy power). |
| CubeKnight09-25-05, 11:43 PM | That's quite a nice idea! (The MindBender one), I'll check if you can get the skills reqs on time. And to the others, you pushed me to the Grey Elf side ;) I'm starting at probably level 5 or 6, and I thought about alternative Druid and Wizard levels, going Druid 1 -> Wiz 1 -> Drd 1 -> Wiz 1 -> Drd 1 -> Wiz 1 (or MindBender 1 if possible). Hmmm.... didn't you need caster 5 to get into MindBender? Wait... caster level only? Then Practiced Spellcaster is enough! Nice! |
| 20goingon123209-25-05, 11:47 PM | That's quite a nice idea! (The MindBender one), I'll check if you can get the skills reqs on time. And to the others, you pushed me to the Grey Elf side ;) I'm starting at probably level 5 or 6, and I thought about alternative Druid and Wizard levels, going Druid 1 -> Wiz 1 -> Drd 1 -> Wiz 1 -> Drd 1 -> Wiz 1 (or MindBender 1 if possible). Hmmm.... didn't you need caster 5 to get into MindBender? Wait... caster level only? Then Practiced Spellcaster is enough! Nice! Sorry. Pretty sure PracSpell doesn't work in this case. You cast spells AS THOUGH your caster level was higher. You ACTUAL caster level isn't... |
| Inkling09-25-05, 11:50 PM | Sorry. Pretty sure PracSpell doesn't work in this case. You cast spells AS THOUGH your caster level was higher. You ACTUAL caster level isn't...You can house rule whatever you want, but re-read the feat description...it says it increases your caster level. |
| X-Codes09-25-05, 11:51 PM | Sorry. Pretty sure PracSpell doesn't work in this case. You cast spells AS THOUGH your caster level was higher. You ACTUAL caster level isn't... Yes, it does work. People do it all the time with Mindbender. |
| 20goingon123209-25-05, 11:54 PM | You can house rule whatever you want, but re-read the feat description...it says it increases your caster level. Really? That makes the feat far more... interesting... than I have given it credit for. |
| slade_caizer09-26-05, 05:34 AM | Sorry. Pretty sure PracSpell doesn't work in this case. You cast spells AS THOUGH your caster level was higher. You ACTUAL caster level isn't...Practiced Spellcaster does give you an actual CL increase. Its limitation is that your caster level can never exceed your hit dice via the feat. It'd be enough for a Fighter4/Wizard1 to qualify for Mindbender. |
| Sang-Drax09-26-05, 07:53 AM | If you don't care as much about the number of 9th level spells you get, then dropping one or two levels of MT for Sacred Exorcist will let you hit DM and persist a Draconic Polymorph or Shapechange (depending on the exact wording of the feat, it's one I don't have memorized). This might not seem special until you make yourself an Illumian and work your bonus spells off Strength. Until then you can always just Wildshape into a Dire Bear or something for when you sleep. Persistent Spell works only for divine spells, unfortunately... it's in the spell description in the errata. I guess I'd take human over gray elf for the bonus feat... feats are too damn useful to a druid to let go by, specially since you'll need to burn a feat on Practiced Spellcaster. |
| J-A-R-N-O09-26-05, 08:24 AM | Persistent Spell works only for divine spells, unfortunately... it's in the spell description in the errata. You ment to say Divine metamagic, didn't you ;) |
| Caelum09-26-05, 08:52 AM | If you're worried about your animal companion being a little behind take the Natural Bond feat from CA. Works like Practiced Spellcaster but for animal companion strength (+3 to druid level up to you druid class level). |
| Zsasz_Diedne09-26-05, 10:08 AM | It has been clarified. Druid and AH levels stack, so you don't have to have it when you start being a AH to gain access to it. Can you direct me to where this was clarified? As there has yet to be any errata for the book that contradictory description for the AH's Wild Shape has been driving me batty. <Looks at Practiced Spellcaster again> Can't believe that didn't dawn on me before, nice new perq to that feat, well done. |
| jameswilliamogle09-26-05, 10:15 AM | If you want to do away with the Animal Companion completely, just use the Druidic Avenger variant: it qualifies as a prereq for Snow Tiger Berserker too, and there's nothing like getting a full attack on after a charge while in Wild Shape Form (of course you can do this as one of the cat forms as well, but wouldn't it be cooler as a Dire Bear?); also, if you do that, you might want to get Neraph Charge, too, although it's better for rogue-ish builds. |
| Elan The Eternal09-26-05, 11:41 AM | where is gray elf from ?? don't find it im my books :confused: |
| CubeKnight09-26-05, 11:54 AM | where is gray elf from ?? don't find it im my books :confused: Monster Manual or the SRD |
| 20goingon123209-26-05, 05:06 PM | Can you direct me to where this was clarified? As there has yet to be any errata for the book that contradictory description for the AH's Wild Shape has been driving me batty. <Looks at Practiced Spellcaster again> Can't believe that didn't dawn on me before, nice new perq to that feat, well done. There was a thread in the Players or DM board and someone went to WotC customer service and had it clarified. Besides, in all of the examples, none of the AHs were above level 5 Druid and all of them have WS. What the text meant is basically your AH levels and your base class levels stack to determine WS ability. Rangers don't have WS, do it is moot. It is like having a Mystic Theurge without a divine component (just for the sake of this example). +1 to a non-existent class feature still = 0. |
| secretkld09-26-05, 05:28 PM | If you're willing to give up casting power for amazing versatility you can burn the feat for coopertive magic or whatever and take mage of the arcane order. Access to all 1-3rd lvl spells on the fly for 1 lvl. It would be cooler with a sorc or warmage but that means another lvl of arcane to take and you'd have to take the arcane prep feat to get the PRC. This would be a char that really has anything you need as long as you what you need isn't higher lvl spells ;) |
| Caelic09-26-05, 05:30 PM | MotAO has lost a lot of value in 3.5. The limit on the number of spells you can call makes the class extremely limited. |
| Velderan09-26-05, 08:15 PM | What exactly is mindsight? I looked in lords of madness, but I didn't see it. |
| Willie the Duck09-26-05, 08:33 PM | Wow. No thread I've started has ever had so many posts in 24 hours. Thanks Guys! I think the question I noticed somewhere near the beginning was what I want out of this class. What I want is a master of utility spells. In combat I expect to buff allies and put up battlefield control spells like stone spikes or entangle, Of course if someone decides to get up close and personal with me, I'd like to be able to take a chunk out of them, although I realize I won't have the staying power of a regular druid, much less a barbarian. race:Grey elves aren't a good idea, as the DM does not have us adjust hp based on shapechanged con changes (as per 3.0), and it would only benifit the spells for one of my classes. I think human is likely the best bet. class: I checked with my DM. Since the example in the book uses a druid 3/wizard 3/AH in one of the examples, he's dropping the bab req, so I can go in after level 6. I'm thinking Druid 3/Wizard 3/AH 10/MT 4. Specializing wouldn't hurt. Since we use 3.0 school restriction, I can go transmuter (excluding evocation) and replace most of the attack spells with conjuration versions, or illusionist (excluding enchantment) but that's only if I've given up on save-or-die type spells (which I understand most MT and gish builds have to do anyway. That last one isn't because illusionists are that great, just that there's always at least one illusion spell worth memorizing most days at every level (mirror image, displacement, etc.). Feats: I like that feat that improves the animal companion. That's cool. Sounds like with that, natural spell and two practiced spellcasters, I have my feat selection up through level 6 (assuming human). What would people suggest for level 9? Does anyone think arcane strike worthwhile (not planning to be in melee much, but this feat would make my natural attacks that much better when I have to be in it). spells: I'm still stuck on what spells to own/have memorized on a standard day. does anyone have any insight here? |
| 20goingon123209-26-05, 10:11 PM | Wow. No thread I've started has ever had so many posts in 24 hours. Thanks Guys! I think the question I noticed somewhere near the beginning was what I want out of this class. What I want is a master of utility spells. In combat I expect to buff allies and put up battlefield control spells like stone spikes or entangle, Of course if someone decides to get up close and personal with me, I'd like to be able to take a chunk out of them, although I realize I won't have the staying power of a regular druid, much less a barbarian. race:Grey elves aren't a good idea, as the DM does not have us adjust hp based on shapechanged con changes (as per 3.0), and it would only benifit the spells for one of my classes. I think human is likely the best bet. class: I checked with my DM. Since the example in the book uses a druid 3/wizard 3/AH in one of the examples, he's dropping the bab req, so I can go in after level 6. I'm thinking Druid 3/Wizard 3/AH 10/MT 4. Specializing wouldn't hurt. Since we use 3.0 school restriction, I can go transmuter (excluding evocation) and replace most of the attack spells with conjuration versions, or illusionist (excluding enchantment) but that's only if I've given up on save-or-die type spells (which I understand most MT and gish builds have to do anyway. That last one isn't because illusionists are that great, just that there's always at least one illusion spell worth memorizing most days at every level (mirror image, displacement, etc.). Feats: I like that feat that improves the animal companion. That's cool. Sounds like with that, natural spell and two practiced spellcasters, I have my feat selection up through level 6 (assuming human). What would people suggest for level 9? Does anyone think arcane strike worthwhile (not planning to be in melee much, but this feat would make my natural attacks that much better when I have to be in it). spells: I'm still stuck on what spells to own/have memorized on a standard day. does anyone have any insight here? Better not let your DM see this then: WotC customer service admitted that that example was flawed. The BAB thing is correct :D |
| Willie the Duck09-27-05, 09:49 AM | Better not let your DM see this then: WotC customer service admitted that that example was flawed. The BAB thing is correct :D eh. that's odd. Kind of breaks the premise a little. Either way I play by the rules, so I'll pick up another level of druid first. |
| J-A-R-N-O09-27-05, 10:15 AM | Taking more druid would hurt your wizard casting even more, so you might consider going Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic theurge 2 before Arcane hierophant, and later finish it with more MT. This way you can get ninth level spells in both wizard and druid casting. Fot your spells, check both The Druid handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=465005) and Wizard's handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=165134). Though both were written for pure wizards/druids, you can try to select the good of both worlds. And your Arcane hierophantness shouldn't have too much impact on your memorized spells. |
| slade_caizer09-27-05, 10:35 AM | You might consider the Spontaneous Healer feat (I think Druid meets the prereqs; I only remember the alignment need). It'll help free up your spells prepared. If you went truly neutral you might even nab Spontaneous Wounder if you really felt like it. Then just prep utility, AoE, and so forth. |
| Inkling09-27-05, 07:21 PM | What exactly is mindsight? I looked in lords of madness, but I didn't see it.LoM p. 126...one of those damn "hidden" feats like Precocious Apprentice. |
| 20goingon123209-27-05, 08:02 PM | You might consider the Spontaneous Healer feat (I think Druid meets the prereqs; I only remember the alignment need). It'll help free up your spells prepared. If you went truly neutral you might even nab Spontaneous Wounder if you really felt like it. Then just prep utility, AoE, and so forth. Where is this feat located? My Druid would love getting it. |
| Lilt09-27-05, 08:21 PM | Where is this feat located? My Druid would love getting it.Complete Divine. You need 4 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to get it, so it's not available until level 6 for a straight druid (you can get the reqs at level 5 but probably won't have a feat slot) unless you get it as a class skill in some other way (Education feat ETC (PGtF)). It's also worth a mention that it only lets you swap a spell a number of times per day equal to your wis modifier, so you'll still probably be wanting a coupple of cures prepared for a rainy day. |
| Caelic09-27-05, 08:31 PM | It's also also worth noting that delaying Natural Spell to get Spontaneous anything at sixth level is a really bad idea. |
| 20goingon123209-27-05, 08:32 PM | Complete Divine. You need 4 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to get it, so it's not available until level 6 for a straight druid (you can get the reqs at level 5 but probably won't have a feat slot) unless you get it as a class skill in some other way (Education feat ETC (PGtF)). It's also worth a mention that it only lets you swap a spell a number of times per day equal to your wis modifier, so you'll still probably be wanting a coupple of cures prepared for a rainy day. Thanks. I'll give it a look. The Wis mod thing is not a problem. I don't need that many cure spells, not with a couple of other divine casters in the party. What I do need is more spell slots to devote to other stuff. This feat will work well into my build since I have a couple of feat slots open. Caelic - Won't be getting that until level 12, I'm afraid. The down side of AHs... |
| Zathyr09-28-05, 03:10 AM | I've never actually seen that Green Whisperer class from Dragon Mag., but how well would a Bard/Druid/AH work with it? I kind of like the idea, but it's hard to say anything without seeing it. |
| Ditta09-28-05, 03:46 AM | Hmm actually he CAN delay that Natural spell till perhaps level 9 when he is either 4druid/3wizard/2AH or 3druid/3wizard/2MT/1AH as he will be getting that wildshape at either level 9 or level 8. His GM removed the the HP re-adjustment when you wildshape, and that removes one of its advantages.. (though its pretty useful for healing... Wild shape brings you back to full health) Anyway I think he can just "suffer" for one level.... Ever considered Dwarf? Hehe I can almost imagine a Dwarf Wizard/Druid...... :P O yeah for spells consider cloud burst from complete divine combined with call lightning... Its like an instant storm for a level 2 spell bringing your call lightning damage to 3d10 instead of 3d6. |
| 20goingon123209-28-05, 06:01 AM | Hmm actually he CAN delay that Natural spell till perhaps level 9 when he is either 4druid/3wizard/2AH or 3druid/3wizard/2MT/1AH as he will be getting that wildshape at either level 9 or level 8. His GM removed the the HP re-adjustment when you wildshape, and that removes one of its advantages.. (though its pretty useful for healing... Wild shape brings you back to full health) Anyway I think he can just "suffer" for one level.... Ever considered Dwarf? Hehe I can almost imagine a Dwarf Wizard/Druid...... :P O yeah for spells consider cloud burst from complete divine combined with call lightning... Its like an instant storm for a level 2 spell bringing your call lightning damage to 3d10 instead of 3d6. A Drd3/Wiz3/MT2/AH1 can't get Wildshape (only Drd4 equivalent), so he can't get Nat Spells. |
| Willie the Duck09-28-05, 05:10 PM | Double checked with DM. It wasn't the example with the druid3/wizard3/AH X that made him say the BAB must be in error. It was the line that states that going druid/wizard is the quickest route into the PrC. This is false, as druid4/wiz3 or druid3/wiz4 (quickest way to make BAB reqs) is no faster than druid3/sorcerer4 (quickest way to qualify going to sorcerer route). He says the author seemed to have made a slip up, and inconsistent writing should be interpreted to favor the gamer (he also hates WotC customer service). More to the point, it violates the spirit of the PrC to pressure players to take levels of MT to qualify for it, since the primary purpose of the class appears to be to replace the MT for druidic characters. Therefore, I will again be palying a druid3/wizard3/AH3. What did people think of my school specialization choices? I know the idea of giving up enchantment sounds insane, but I've heard on so many threads that multiclass spellcasters have virtually no chance at becoming competitive with the save-or-die spells. I don't suppose there is a Natural Bond/Practiced Spellcaster like feat for regaining one's own shapechange levels? Being 9th level and still changing into leopards and black bears is pretty shabby, even if I'm not exactly a combat monster. |
| 20goingon123209-28-05, 05:20 PM | Actually, the problem with save or dies is that at high levels, they are nigh useless. We are talking Fort Saves in the late 20s, if not early 40s. Same with Will. Reflex is not as bad, but still up there. It is almost impossible to get your DC up to those kind of levels. The main problem with multi-class spellcasters is penetrating SR. But, in your case, Practiced Spellcaster would get rid of that totally. Actually, I would STILL go MT for a very simple reason: MT allows you to dual progress your caster levels up to double that of the AH (or character level 26). It is also the only way you will get 9th level spells by 20th level. |
| Ditta09-28-05, 06:40 PM | I know druid3/wizard4/AH1 does not get you wild shape..... but once you get to druid3/wizard4/AH2 you get wildshape, and Look thats at level 9! Thus he should actually delay that natural spell feat to level 9. <--The MT one was a lousy example. But now his GM has ruled that he can go druid3/wizard3/AH3 thus he actually can finish off all the levels in AH then just continue into MT, after all its a natural progression. |
| Namarus09-28-05, 06:54 PM | Tbh I would definately say you gimping yourself at low levels by delaying your wildshape. MT will only improve your spellcasting progression, If your GM has allowed you to ignore the BAB requirement, just do Druid 3/Wizard 3/ Arcane Heirophant straight away. Otherwise if he has not, I would recommend going Druid4/Wiz3/AH. The longer you delay your AH abilities the worse off you are. I did a check a while back on the ideal progression for an AH, and the Druid 4, rather than Wizard 4 or MT2 came out a lot stronger in hit points, saves, skills. Plus it enables better wild shape, increase pet and familiar powers which directly improve your Familiar Companion. You shouldn't bother with practised caster in both classes, rather I would say practised caster Wizard is a better choice. With regards to spontanous healing? Don't bother, Vigour spells are what you should be using, and buy yourself a wand of CLW. Otherwise it's a waste to stock up on cure spells. Your stock and trade should be buff spells, I would recommend, Magic Of The Land (feat) since that will let you heal with your buffing spells. Augment Healing if you are interested in the healing angle. Human is definately the way to go, since you will be extremely low on feats. Some very good builds that I have seen are as follows. Druid4/Diviner1/Divine Oracle2/AH+ That would give you evasion in your armour, which is a nifty ability, and giving you more hit points than a wizard would have. Druid 4/Wizard 2/Mindbender 1/AH+ This gives you telepathic communication with people around you, plus this allows you to communicate with your minions (summoned) very easily. Druid 3/Wizard3/Beastmaster1/AH+ This gives you increased pet power, as well as slightly better saves. MT is a very bad choice in my opinion since it only buffs spells, and spells are a nice part of the class, the continued wild shape and pet progression are what makes the class special. With regards to feats I would suggest. Spell Focus (Conjuration) L1 Augment Summoning L1 Scribe Scroll L3 Practised Caster Wizard L3 Natural Bond L6 Natural Spell L9 Magic Of The Land L12 Augment Healing L15 |
| Dark_and_Stormy09-28-05, 07:27 PM | It'd be very tight, but you could probably also manage Druid3/Wiz2/DragonSlayer1/AH10/MT4. If you use the 'Militant Wizard' Variant from UA, you can get Dodge instead of Scribe Scroll, lessening the impact. Human a definate must in this build for that extra feat. And hey - if you can use Dragon/UA, grab a couple of feats. The combat-related ones are your best bet. Dragonslayer gives you that virtual 'Wizard3' level, and a point of BAB on top. Immunity to fear can't hurt. |
| 20goingon123209-28-05, 07:52 PM | Problem with the whole Drdx/Wiz1/Mind1/Slayer1 type builds is that DMs tend to go, "You what???! Justify that, munchkin!" and start hurling abuse. At least many of the DMs over in the DM boards and those that I have experience with (although admittedly from the same group that as players tend to make Chain-trippers left and right). |
| catharz09-28-05, 08:47 PM | I'm not gonna call this the "best" AH by a long shot, but it is kinda interesting: Bard 1/Druid 4/Green whisperer 2/AH 10/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan 2: BAB 9, Spellcasting as Druid 18, Bard 7, SC 9. Music & Lore @ Bard 5, WS @ Druid 14. I think you need a special "Familiar" feat, not sure. Alternatively, Bard 2/Dru 3/GW 2/AH 10/SC 1/FL 2: Spellcasting as Druid 17, Bard 7, SC 10. But as for the 'best,' I'd have to go with Precocious Wizard 1/Druid 3/MT 6/AH 10. |
| 20goingon123209-28-05, 09:05 PM | I'm not gonna call this the "best" AH by a long shot, but it is kinda interesting: Bard 1/Druid 4/Green whisperer 2/AH 10/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan 2: BAB 9, Spellcasting as Druid 18, Bard 7, SC 9. Music & Lore @ Bard 5, WS @ Druid 14. I think you need a special "Familiar" feat, not sure. Alternatively, Bard 2/Dru 3/GW 2/AH 10/SC 1/FL 2: Spellcasting as Druid 17, Bard 7, SC 10. But as for the 'best,' I'd have to go with Precocious Wizard 1/Druid 3/MT 6/AH 10. Precocious don't work with that build, I'm afraid. Wiz1/MT1 != 2nd level spells, so you are stuck. At best, Precocious gives you: Wiz2/Drd3/MT2/AHx |
| catharz09-28-05, 09:32 PM | Precocious don't work with that build, I'm afraid. Wiz1/MT1 != 2nd level spells, so you are stuck. At best, Precocious gives you: Wiz2/Drd3/MT2/AHx Can you be a bit more clear? As far as I can tell, as long as you have at least 2nd level arcane & divine spells, and at least three character levels, you can make all of the requirements for MT. |
| 20goingon123209-28-05, 09:57 PM | Can you be a bit more clear? As far as I can tell, as long as you have at least 2nd level arcane & divine spells, and at least three character levels, you can make all of the requirements for MT. You lose the PA feat when you get 2nd level spells. ANY 2nd level spell. So, when you hit Wiz1/Drd3/MT1, you gain 2nd level Druid spells. PA no longer work. So you will drop back down to 1st level Wiz spells (effective Wiz2 from Wiz1/MT1). Which means you cannot advance MT since you no longer meet the pre-requisite. But if you were Wiz2/MT1, you will have 2nd level Wiz spells, so you can continue in MT. You only "gain" a level with PA. |
| catharz09-28-05, 11:00 PM | You lose the PA feat when you get 2nd level spells. ANY 2nd level spell. So, when you hit Wiz1/Drd3/MT1, you gain 2nd level Druid spells. PA no longer work. So you will drop back down to 1st level Wiz spells (effective Wiz2 from Wiz1/MT1). Which means you cannot advance MT since you no longer meet the pre-requisite. But if you were Wiz2/MT1, you will have 2nd level Wiz spells, so you can continue in MT. You only "gain" a level with PA. You need the Druid 3 before you can take MT. Wizard 2/Druid 2 doesn't qualify for MT regardless of PA, and Wizard 2/Druid 3 still has to deal with MwaO's diologue, and doesn't qualify either (assuming that the 2nd-level slot goes to Druid casting). So, my rationalization is that 1) PA doesn't work for getting into PrCs, period, or 2) MwaO is right about PA up to the point about the PA slot becoming a normal divine slot. I say that at Wiz 1/Dru 3, the PA slot becomes a 'normal' arcane slot. Whatever. Point is, Wiz 2/Dru 3 does jack. Dru 3/Wiz 3/MT 4/AH is legit and Wiz 1/Dru 3/MT 6/AH 10 may be legit. Dru 7/Wiz 3/AH 10 is too legit: Too legit to quit. |
| Willie the Duck09-28-05, 11:04 PM | Problem with the whole Drdx/Wiz1/Mind1/Slayer1 type builds is that DMs tend to go, "You what???! Justify that, munchkin!" and start hurling abuse. At least many of the DMs over in the DM boards and those that I have experience with (although admittedly from the same group that as players tend to make Chain-trippers left and right). True enough. My DM is realy into 'themes'. I benifit in that he is willing to drop the bab req for the PrC because it violates the theme of the class, but I'll lose out because he will definately cry foul if I pick up a level of dragonslayer or mindbender simply for added powers. I will take this class as druid 3/wizard 3/AH 10/ either MT 4 or a some class or PrC that grants all of the druid abilities (since that is the thematic focus). I'm thinking MT since you get most of your best shapechange and animal companion abilities by 13th level (Natural bond picking up most of the rest). Everyone is doing a great job of optimizing things. Thanks. Unfortunately, my DM will veto a lot of these as being "too obvious" power plays. What about best spell choices, best animal companions, and best animal forms? I'll most likely only be in melee if forced to be, so charging shapes won't be a big thing. y DM absolutely hates grappling, so he won't throw that at me, but will most likely balk at any build predicated on it as well. My animal will most likely stick close and protect me, although a charge-monster that takes the fighter's place when he goes down while I lay down battlefield control spells is also a good plan since I expect us to get in over our heads about once every five or six combats (we have impulsive players). |
| catharz09-28-05, 11:09 PM | Mounted combat is pretty cool with this kind of character. Grab your spear and get stabbing. |
| 20goingon123209-28-05, 11:11 PM | True enough. My DM is realy into 'themes'. I benifit in that he is willing to drop the bab req for the PrC because it violates the theme of the class, but I'll lose out because he will definately cry foul if I pick up a level of dragonslayer or mindbender simply for added powers. I will take this class as druid 3/wizard 3/AH 10/ either MT 4 or a some class or PrC that grants all of the druid abilities (since that is the thematic focus). I'm thinking MT since you get most of your best shapechange and animal companion abilities by 13th level (Natural bond picking up most of the rest). Everyone is doing a great job of optimizing things. Thanks. Unfortunately, my DM will veto a lot of these as being "too obvious" power plays. What about best spell choices, best animal companions, and best animal forms? I'll most likely only be in melee if forced to be, so charging shapes won't be a big thing. y DM absolutely hates grappling, so he won't throw that at me, but will most likely balk at any build predicated on it as well. My animal will most likely stick close and protect me, although a charge-monster that takes the fighter's place when he goes down while I lay down battlefield control spells is also a good plan since I expect us to get in over our heads about once every five or six combats (we have impulsive players). Get a monkey AniComp. It is listed in the MM under Baboon. When you get to AH10, that Baboon has Int 12. Mithril Armour, and give it weapon Prof feats like Longbow. It should have a decent Dex by then. When people come close, have it whip out a Greatsword and go to town. At higher levels, Ape and Dire Ape may seem to be good ideas. They are not if you want to go underground. Large creatures tend to have that problem. |
| ezreal200109-28-05, 11:26 PM | What about best spell choices, best animal companions, and best animal forms? I'll most likely only be in melee if forced to be, so charging shapes won't be a big thing. y DM absolutely hates grappling, so he won't throw that at me, but will most likely balk at any build predicated on it as well. My animal will most likely stick close and protect me, although a charge-monster that takes the fighter's place when he goes down while I lay down battlefield control spells is also a good plan since I expect us to get in over our heads about once every five or six combats (we have impulsive players). You do know that a Dire Bear familiar + Polymorph = a Hydra, and if you can get in a couple of buffs and maybe up the things number of AoOs up then mellee is covered and your PC is free to do what ever. just my 2 cents |
| 42up09-28-05, 11:46 PM | you cant beat the great club wielding dire ape power attacking while buffed to insanity. |
| 20goingon123209-28-05, 11:51 PM | you cant beat the great club wielding dire ape power attacking while buffed to insanity. Until you need to go into a dungeon built for "normal" sized characters :) Then, you have to leave Kong behind. |
| dirkformica09-28-05, 11:55 PM | Until you need to go into a dungeon built for "normal" sized characters :) Then, you have to leave Kong behind. Isn't that what Legendary Ape from Monster Manual 2 is for? ;) |
| 42up09-29-05, 12:44 AM | Isn't that what Legendary Ape from Monster Manual 2 is for? ;) eh DM's can be touchy with MM2 stuff from what I have come across. Especially any medium creature with +30 str. |
| StormCrow4209-29-05, 01:54 AM | eh DM's can be touchy with MM2 stuff from what I have come across. Then point them to the 3.5 conversion documents for MM2 and FF on the Wizards site. The conversion document makes them 3.5 compliant, don't expect to see updated versions of them any time soon. |
| lore09-29-05, 04:38 AM | Can you give a direct link to the conversion documents? |
| StormCrow4209-29-05, 12:08 PM | 3.5 Updates for select 3.0 core books (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) |
| Rara Avis09-29-05, 05:28 PM | Drd3/Wiz1/MB1/DS1/AH+...Wow, AH has indeed come a long way since last I saw it. This forum deserves a bump. Keep up the good work guys, I desire more cheese. |
| TheVatican09-29-05, 05:58 PM | DS1? What does that stand for? and what does it provide the mage with? |
| 20goingon123209-29-05, 06:22 PM | Dragonslayer, I believe. Immune Fear, Full caster, Full BAB, and less ASF? But only useful for a 1 level dip, I think. |
| TheVatican09-29-05, 06:47 PM | awesome thanks What book is Dragon Slayer found in? |
| slade_caizer09-29-05, 07:13 PM | awesome thanks What book is Dragon Slayer found in?Draconomicon. It works nicely for the build except for needing BAB +5 in order to get in. |
| Willie the Duck09-29-05, 11:41 PM | You do know that a Dire Bear familiar + Polymorph = a Hydra, and if you can get in a couple of buffs and maybe up the things number of AoOs up then mellee is covered and your PC is free to do what ever. just my 2 cents I won't have access to the spell polymorph yet. |
| secretkld10-02-05, 04:31 PM | Well one of the benifits of AH is easy access to Alter self. It's a diguise, a water travel spell, a way to conserve on wildshapes and an awesome armor buff all rolled into one. For defense take on lizardman form (+5 natural armor) with barkskin and Luminous Armor form BoED and you have 26+ armor. I'd go for a magic wooden shield before magic armor because the armor spells (Luminous or mage armors) all last an hour per level so go get a lesser metamagic rod of extend and they will last you all day. With some dex and a magic shield you can break the 30 armor mark early. Another thing about Alter Self that you should work out with your GM is what happens when you use it while wildshaped. Will you retain attributes/feats from your wildshape or will the effect of it be entirely suppressed by Alter self . . . Even if you gain no benefits from stacking the two this way it's sometimes better to alter self back to your own form for the sake of being able to dismiss it to go back to your wildshape if you have few wildshapes due to multiclassing. At least thats been my experience. Produce flame and chill touch are amazing for damage. It will effect both you and your companion so you can get in lots more damage. Call lightning is the standard damage spell but its the most fun when you scout up ahead and direct the blasts as a bird. Even without Natural Spell you can cast this first then wildshape and go on ahead. Cloudburst will increase the damage and maybe air elementals in whirlwind form. I loved summoning small fire elemental at low levels with Summon natures ally. Summon up 1d3 of these in from of you and anything hitting or touching them with natural attacks takes fire damage. Summon Earth elementals to scout out for you in a dungeon. They can walk through walls and swim through floors. I'm sure you already know to use shillelagh and spikes to do some great damage when not wildshaped. I once saw a druid player use an oak lance on his ally horse mount with spikes up. That hurts on a charge. His sudden violent death prob means the GM didn't like it though. Honestly, the spells I used the most at lower levels were . . . 1)OBSCURING MIST: It's basically gonna let your GM let you run away when you should. Protects you from ranged attacks. Some ranks in move silently will help out with this too. Sneak past guards, Skip out on your bar tab, do a covert shapechange, cast with some illusions like ghost sound and it will almost always work. 2) MESSAGE: communication is key. Your best spotter/listener can keep you informed of all thats important without the GM glaring at him. Go Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=465005&page=1&pp=30) for a good list of important druid spells and all other things Druid. |
| Velderan10-05-05, 11:09 PM | Any feats you guys can think of that particularly benefit companion familiars? |
| Gorfnod Wonderful03-08-06, 04:23 PM | Quick question, how is it that you have the BAB req for DS with the build Drd3/Wiz1/MB1/DS1? (Fractional attack bonus?) PS-The Vanara has been updated in 3.5 by having all of its ability adjustments removed, IIRC. |