Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GenerallyUnique 04-01-04, 04:23 PM	I... I think I may've found it. The best Arcane summoner (remember, this is Arcane, not a druid/ur-priest/cleric of Guwuzzle/Mystic Theurge I'm not going human because I didn't when I planned it out. Wizard(Conjurer)6. (Take the UA option to not have a familiar in order to summon faster. Demonologist7(Book of Vile Darkness). This gives you hefty resistances, immunity to poison, and most importantly, Summoning Mastery. Nar Demonbinder7. This gives a lot of nice things, the most important of which is 8th level spells. Now, the main bonus of this is that the Nar Demonbinder has 8th level spells. The Demonologist gives you Summoning Mastery +3. What is means is that every 8th summoning level spell is cast as if it were an 11th level spell. When you summon things from the 8th level list you actually summon 1d4+1 things rom the 9th level list. You are the ultimate battlefield controller. In a Standard Action you can make up to 5 Hezrous or Bibliths appears. I think this is the deadliest arcane summoner possible. However, the Summoning Mastery only works for Chaotic Evil outsiders, and without that you're just summoning things as you normally would. I think this would work wonderfully with a Greater Rod of Maximize, meaning that you -always- summon the best possible number. Armies are easier to wade through when a bunch of Bibiliths appear above them and start ripping their armor to shreds, etc. As an added bonus from the Demonologist, you get a Quasit as a familiar, whether you want him or not, even though you gave up your familiar ability from UA. Can anyone see anything wrong with this build? I would like to perfect it for playing as soon as possible.
Mommy was an Orc 04-01-04, 11:48 PM	It is debatable whether or not Summoning Mastery allows you to cast non-existant spells. There is no 10th or 11th level Monster Summoning spells, at least pre-epic. Also, the build doesn't give you anything you wouldn't really get from being a Wizard 17/Demonologist 3. Then you get 9th level spells and if your DM allows the manuever, 11th level Monster Summoning spells.
catharz 04-02-04, 12:14 AM	Well, I see a few problems. The first is that you must be chaotic evil ;) The second is that you will either be lacking at low levels (many pre-requisite feats, gaps in spellcasting, & MAD), or high levels (MAD). However, in a campaign where alignment is not an issue, your build can be quite powerful. However, I would tweak it to Conjurer variant 5/Demonologist 4/Nar demonbinder 7 (16th level). At this point you can use your 8th level spell slot (assuming you know Summon monster 7) to cast a Summon monster 9 with one level of metamagic, or a similar combination with a lower level spell. In my opinion, the best thing to do now is advance Eldritch master from levels one to four. If you can't do that, Demonologist is still your best bet. Conjurer 5/Demonologist 8/Nar demonbinder 7 is nice for both Telepathy (nice for communicating with your summons) and the possibility of epic Summoning mastery+4. I have played a similar build of Wizard 4/Tainted spellcaster 1/Demonologist 4/Eldritch master 10/Incantatrix in a campaign, and it was a pretty fun.
Qaetar 04-02-04, 12:16 AM	Except that you get more Wizard spells, right? (Qaetar)
GenerallyUnique 04-02-04, 12:25 AM	What I meant: Summoning Mastery allows you to pick from a list a certain number of levels higher. For example, if you had Summoning Mastery 3 and cast Summon Monster 5, you could pick a monster from the 8th level list. Or you could pick 1d3 monsters from the 7th level list. Or you could pick 1d4+1 monsters from any lower list. So, if you had Summoning Mastery3 and cast Summon Monster 8, you could pick 1d4+1 monsters from any list (as there are no 11th level spell slots).
Mommy was an Orc 04-02-04, 01:10 AM	That's an interpretation of the rules. What you actually get is the ability to use the spell that is 2 levels higher on the list. Summon Monster IV becomes Summon Monster VI. As Monster XI is undefined, it isn't a certainty that Summon Monster IX becomes XI. A 17th level specialist wizard/3rd level Demonologist can already effectively cast 9-9th level spells per day and would be able to take advantage of the above - it is an obvious enough build that Monte would have addressed such a thing. Summoning Master 2 + Summon Monster 9... Originally posted by GenerallyUnique So, if you had Summoning Mastery3 and cast Summon Monster 8, you could pick 1d4+1 monsters from any list (as there are no 11th level spell slots).
LordShade 04-02-04, 02:10 AM	Originally posted by GenerallyUnique Can anyone see anything wrong with this build? I would like to perfect it for playing as soon as possible. Hate to burst your bubble but Snow Savant, myself and a third guy I don't remember developed this build a long time ago on the old boards, before Unapproachable East came out (using the web preview of the Nar Demonbinder). Some things I should point out - Conj5 qualifies you for Demonologist. Better to get into your PrCs faster. Also, it is better to go Nard6/Demonologist9, for Summon Mastery +4, which applies to all of your summoning spells. Your max is still SM 11, but rather than having a +3 to all your summons, it's better to have a +4. Unfortunately that old build is lost. We'd optimized the spell list too, with all the critical picks for the Nard list. Remember Demonologist knows every spell on his list, so there's a lot of picks that are redundant for the Nard. Snow and I were in agreement that it was a reasonable rule to let a Summon Monster 7 with Summon Mastery +4 count as a level 11 summon spell. Since there is no list for SM 11, we agreed that it was reasonable to let you bring out 1d4+1 9th level summons instead. Now, the original version of the build we made used the pre-release version of the Nar Demonbinder, which had a prereq of GSF: Conj. The version printed in UE only requires SF: Conj. That means the build has 2 free feats. I updated the build for my own campaign a couple weeks ago, using the UA variants and material from the Minis HB. I decided that at least one of those two feats should go to Sudden Empower or Sudden Maximize. With Sudden Empower, you are bringing out 3-7 hezrous with 1 standard action, with Sudden Maximize you bring out 5. That means in 2 rounds, on average you have 10 hezrous attacking. Alternately, if the BBEG (which is what this build was originally made for) needs all the summons in the first round, use both Sudden Empower and Sudden Maximize to bring out a guaranteed 7 hezrous. In theory you could bring out (bebilith or wastrilith, the CR 18 creature that has the break summon ability) and then try to teleport away, leaving the PCs to deal with 10 CR 18 creatures. You would have to teleport away as this build is Cha based and is unlikely to maintain control over the fiends (it's a wis check). Lastly, also use the UA variant that lets you switch Scribe Scroll for Augment Summoning. It saves you a feat.
LordShade 04-02-04, 02:18 AM	Originally posted by catharz Well, I see a few problems. The first is that you must be chaotic evil ;) The second is that you will either be lacking at low levels (many pre-requisite feats, gaps in spellcasting, & MAD), or high levels (MAD). This build doesn't really suffer from MAD. Your only primary stat is Charisma (for Nard and Demonologist). You use wizard to qualify but you really only need a 13 int at bare minimum. Stats are not the hard part. Mommy was an orc - I agree that it is an interpretation of the rules, but IMO it is a very reasonable one. It follows the same pattern as all the other Summon Monster spells. Don't you think that if there WERE a Summon Monster 11, or if you had to make an SM 11, that it would let you conjure 1d4+1 monsters from the SM 9 list? As for "it is an obvious enough build that Monte would have addressed such a thing. Summoning Master 2 + Summon Monster 9..." I think you put too much faith in Monte Cook. After all, he did let the Ur-Priest into the game...
GenerallyUnique 04-02-04, 06:01 AM	Some things I should point out - Conj5 qualifies you for Demonologist. Better to get into your PrCs faster. Only if you're a human. As I pointed out, I didn't make the build for a human (I'm currently in an Underdark campaign and there aren't many humans about). I'm a bit embarrassed to find that you and Snow Savant made the build first, though. Though I finally had one no one else did. Ahh well. I guess I'll figure out how to work this build eventually. As it is it seems good but... not quite there yet. And I dunno why. I suppose I'll have to think on it a bit more first. Add on: In a fairly recent Dragon (311 or so) there was a template for spells called 'Champion'. all of you summons had maximum hit points at the cost of a 250gp topaz. I think I'll see if my DM would allow that one.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 04-02-04, 10:32 AM	Go over to Monte Cook's boards (at his Malhavoc web site thing) and look up his posts on Demonologist rulings. he explicitly states that a Summon Monster VIII (8) spell affected by Mastery of Summons +2 = Summon Monster X (10). Since there is no SM-10, it becomes a Summon Monster 9 that can summon 1d3 SM9 creatures - or a SM9 spell that can be used with a +1 level adjustment metamagick feat (if you have it). this should address Mommy was am Orc's concern.
Qaetar 04-02-04, 04:11 PM	Does that mean with Summon Mastery +3 and a SM spell one slot higher you can quicken? Seems feasible.
LordShade 04-03-04, 01:06 AM	Originally posted by GenerallyUnique I'm a bit embarrassed to find that you and Snow Savant made the build first, though. Though I finally had one no one else did. No need to be embarrassed. Great minds think alike after all. :cool: As for the build lacking that special something, we decided it was best suited for an NPC because it's such a one-trick pony. It is hands down the most powerful arcane summoner, but that's really all it can do - it's not an effective blaster, utility mage, or anything else. A straight wiz or sorc at least can cover many roles in the party. In terms of usefulness to an adventuring party, I'd put this guy on par with a warmage. In a big party it might be fun, but in a small party you have to be able to cover more than one niche.
stembolt 04-03-04, 10:24 PM	My only problem with this build is that it is inferior to Wiz20. I think if you consider Wiz20 to be a starting ground you should try to be better than that when min maxing. Sure you have lots of 4th level spells but you have no 9th level spells and limited amounts of the other high levels. You can summon 1d4+1 CE creatures, but how is that better than having 4 9th level spells? I would rather cast 4 summon monster IXs. Or for that matter gate. The best Arcane summoner (if that is your goal) is going to include the following criteria 1) Start with Wizard or Sorcerer 2) Take only classes that give +1 spellcaster level per level (at most you could give up one level of casting, but that had better be worth: wizard: 50% of the time you only have half as many of you highest level spell 50% of the time you do not have one spell of a higher level Sorcerer 2/3 of the time you have one less of your highest level spell 1/3 of the time you do not have 3 spells of a higher level! ) 3)Specialize in conjuration(if a wizard) and get augment summoning however you can. If available consider the variants from UA but they are by no means a given. Having played a conjurer I found that having a familiar was very useful and scribe scroll and the other feats were useful as well. I recommend the PrC Alienist. They primary weakness of summoned creatures is a low To Hit bonus and true strike certainly helps there. Now I realize that this derailed your thread a bit. If you are committed to using one of the two PrCs you mention my suggestion is to pick one and go from there.
pawsplay 04-04-04, 01:40 AM	It is pretty hard to top Wizard 15/Archmage 5 with Augment Summoning for sheer summoning power.
Mommy was an Orc 04-04-04, 03:05 AM	No, it isn't a reasonable interpretation. Either there is a SM 11 or there isn't. Either the Demonologist is capable of casting SM 11 in its entirety or they can't cast it at all. Ur-Priest - show me a broken result involving Ur-Priest using only Core classes and no other prestige classes. I can't break it using only that, I can break Demonologist using your interpretation and 17 levels of Wizard. Originally posted by LordShade Mommy was an orc - I agree that it is an interpretation of the rules, but IMO it is a very reasonable one. It follows the same pattern as all the other Summon Monster spells. Don't you think that if there WERE a Summon Monster 11, or if you had to make an SM 11, that it would let you conjure 1d4+1 monsters from the SM 9 list? As for "it is an obvious enough build that Monte would have addressed such a thing. Summoning Master 2 + Summon Monster 9..." I think you put too much faith in Monte Cook. After all, he did let the Ur-Priest into the game...
LordShade 04-04-04, 04:37 AM	Originally posted by Mommy was an Orc No, it isn't a reasonable interpretation. Either there is a SM 11 or there isn't. Either the Demonologist is capable of casting SM 11 in its entirety or they can't cast it at all. Ur-Priest - show me a broken result involving Ur-Priest using only Core classes and no other prestige classes. I can't break it using only that, I can break Demonologist using your interpretation and 17 levels of Wizard. For starters, prestige classes don't exist in a vacuum. You're not supposed to evaluate PrCs by themselves, and to disregard everything else in the game is disingenuous. It's not possible to break Nar Demonbinder either with only core classes, and furthermore that doesn't mean anything. But Mystic Theurge is a core prestige class and drastically inflates the power of both UP and Nard. Second, by my view wiz17/demonologist3 is hardly broken. There are many more powerful combinations out there. IMO being able to summon 1d4+1 is a neat trick (and powerful) but not game-breaking. Ever taken one of those IQ tests where you have to fill in a pattern, like 1 4 9 16 25 __ ? You look at the previous numbers in the list to figure out what the pattern is. It's obvious that the summon monster spells follow a pattern. It's also very easy to extrapolate that pattern into higher-level versions of the SM spell when you have class abilities that warrant the existence of a post-9th level summon spell. stembolt - I agree that it is inferior to a wiz20 for general adventuring. That's why I thought the build was best for an NPC villain, who is likely to show up in a one-set encounter. NPCs that the players are going to face once don't need a wide variety of abilities - they need to be able to do one thing, and do it really well. You might say that wiz17/dem3 is a better build, but I like all of the other neat demon-related abilities the PrCs give you. This build is minmaxed FOR SUMMONING and nothing else. I hope you agree that it is possible to minmax a character in any one particular area, regardless of how worthwhile that niche is in the grand scheme of things. A good example is a character that has devoted every aspect of his build to maximizing his sleight of hand check. Not very powerful in the grand scheme of things, maybe, but it's still minmaxing. ps - good to see you posting here again.
Mommy was an Orc 04-04-04, 04:07 PM	Actually, I don't think other PrCs should work on classes with unusual spell progressions, either ones that skip levels(ND) or advance faster than normal(Ur-Priest). I just rule they don't get higher level spells in the odd PrC classes until the PrC class gives it to them. That's the simple fix and one used by most DMs anyway, although it is usually expressed in the form of "No, I won't let you do that..." You know no one in Monte, SKR, or Rich Redman's game has even seriously tried to get away with it. I'm not saying Monte was right to let the Ur-Priest in unfixed like that. But he may have simply had in his head the fix I mentioned above, and didn't consider the results of not spelling it out. The Wizard 17/Demonologist 3 has the ability to cast 9th level spells and use Summon Mastery 2. This either does nothing to a 9th level spell or it creates an Epic spell in a non-Epic character. As Monte would have spelled out the Epic nature if that was his intent, it shouldn't do anything to a 9th level spell. Finally, your IQ progression looks nice, but using math is a bad idea when you ignore something that doesn't fit your model. Only if you can get to 121, can you get to 1d4+1 81s, even if at 81, you can get 1d4+1 49s. If the rules say you can't get to 121, then you can't get to 1d4+1 81s, no matter how much sense the progression might make. Originally posted by LordShade For starters, prestige classes don't exist in a vacuum. You're not supposed to evaluate PrCs by themselves, and to disregard everything else in the game is disingenuous. It's not possible to break Nar Demonbinder either with only core classes, and furthermore that doesn't mean anything. But Mystic Theurge is a core prestige class and drastically inflates the power of both UP and Nard. Ever taken one of those IQ tests where you have to fill in a pattern, like 1 4 9 16 25 __ ? You look at the previous numbers in the list to figure out what the pattern is. It's obvious that the summon monster spells follow a pattern. It's also very easy to extrapolate that pattern into higher-level versions of the SM spell when you have class abilities that warrant the existence of a post-9th level summon spell.
LordShade 04-04-04, 04:21 PM	Originally posted by Mommy was an Orc Actually, I don't think other PrCs should work on classes with unusual spell progressions, either ones that skip levels(ND) or advance faster than normal(Ur-Priest). I just rule they don't get higher level spells in the odd PrC classes until the PrC class gives it to them. I agree with you on this. Even though I am one of the most notorious Ur-Priest abusers on this board, I really don't like the idea of advancing UP/Nard/NH casting with another PrC. Hence, I also use the rule that says PrCs can't advance the casting of another PrC. However, I don't know where you get the information that "most" DMs use that rule. Have you talked to "most" DMs about it? Just because you and I think a house rule is reasonable doesn't mean that everyone else does. Originally posted by Mommy was an Orc This either does nothing to a 9th level spell or it creates an Epic spell in a non-Epic character Which I think is a pretty cool example of minmaxing. The reason I don't consider it abusive is because it's so limited in effect. If you want to be Chaotic Evil and pass up 3 levels of archmage or another PrC so you can summon 1d4+1 hezrous, be my guest. Originally posted by Mommy was an Orc If the rules say you can't get to 121, then you can't get to 1d4+1 81s, no matter how much sense the progression might make. This is where we disagree then. I don't think the rules say that you CAN'T get to 121. All the rules say is that you CAN get to 81. They don't say anything about what happens after that.
Blossoms 04-05-04, 11:15 PM	I don't really like the wizard levels at the start - due to the lack of a charisma synergy. Sorcerer gets in later, but has a nice synergy. I've played around with some build like this before, and some options are: Keeping with conjurer at the start: Conjurer 5/Demonologist 9/Nar Demonbinder 2/Contemplative 1/Thaumaturgist 3 Using contemplative to get the summoning domain, and dumping all your contemplative/thaumaturgist caster levels into Nar Demonbinder, giving you caster level 6. You could kick out the second ND level for another Thaumaturgist if you like. Or find a good one level dip. The last level of Demonologist is ok too - but another Charisma based one. Curse those wizards! But like I said I like having a pure charisma based build, so Sorcerer 6/Demonologist 9/Nar Demonbinder 1/Contemplative 1/Thaumaturgist 3 The problem with this one is the knowledge: religion prerequisiste of contemplative, though it is class for Demonologist. Personally I would dump my casting into sorcerer, as I'm concentrating on Summon Monster spells, where many medium level spells are more effective due to summoning mastery. With a charisma of (base 18, 5 levels, 5 inherent, 6 enhancement) 34 this gives you spells: 6/16/16/15/19/8 Which is a hell a lot of 4th (read 8th) level spells. And gets around the whole 11th level spells issue. Caster levels from summon monster spells are 20/18/24, with all summon monster spells extended, so they should last long enough for you. 5th level Pearls of power should be invested in. As they are fun.
LordShade 04-06-04, 01:00 AM	Originally posted by Blossoms I don't really like the wizard levels at the start - due to the lack of a charisma synergy. Sorcerer gets in later We debated this very issue in the original build and decided on wizard because - 1. You only need a 13 int, so no MAD; 2. Wizard gets in faster, and maximizing the PrC levels and getting them ASAP is the key for this build; 3. Wizard gets 2 more feats, which are important to this build; 4. With the addition of UA, the summoner variants make wizard even more attractive (augment summoning, harder to dispel, and quicker summons); 5. The only low-level spell a BBEG is likely to use is invisibility, so it doesn't really matter what the DCs are like on your level 1-3 spells. In this build the low level spells really aren't of much importance. 6. For that matter, if he does need a variety of spells (needs to identify a demon-related item, charm a suspicious town guard, haste a summoned creature, or detect different things), it's a lot easier to get them as a wizard. 7. He doesn't need more spells/day. As a BBEG, he is not likely to participate in combats for more than 5-10 rounds. Hence, he really only needs to be able to cast 10 really good spells in a day. 8. To me, the Summon Monster 11 spell is the whole point of the build. (getting an epic spell pre-epic) All of the above assume that the build is for a BBEG, not a player character (which I don't recommend anyway). If you are building for a PC on a strict point buy I grant you that Sorc might be a better choice... but then, I'd actually recommend Mommy's Wiz17/Dem3 build instead. edit - a minor nitpick: I do not think Contemplative can advance arcane casting, though I do like your addition of Summoning domain and Thaumaturgist.
Blossoms 04-06-04, 01:14 AM	Damn - you're right about Contemplative not advancing arcane spell casting. I'll have to think of a way around that.
stembolt 04-07-04, 02:06 AM	LordShade stembolt - I agree that it is inferior to a wiz20 for general adventuring. That's why I thought the build was best for an NPC villain, who is likely to show up in a one-set encounter. I think that you are right in what you say here about being better for an NPC. However in the interest of making that NPC more of a challenge I advocate picking one of these PrCs and sticking with it. Ps- It’s rough sometimes the drudgery of work and home repairs takes one away from what’s really important: DnD message boards.