Best armor for Deepwarden [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best armor for Deepwarden [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GrolubFranco
02-09-05, 05:19 AM Hi to all!
I wanted to know what could be the best low budget armor for a character planning on going for Deepwarden in a couple of lvl´s. My DM doesn´t allow Mechanus Armor, so forget about it. I currently have a +1 Full plate.

What do you think?
happycows
02-09-05, 05:48 AM Get an armor that suits your constitution bonus. If you have 22 constitution then you'll most likely be wearing light armor... Mithrall chainshirt is pretty cheap and great if you have 20 constitution.
GrolubFranco
02-09-05, 05:52 AM That´s not the point, because the moment I´ll go to deepwarden I´ll loose all my Dex bonus from armor, because I´ll be applying my CON instead. So, I would be needing a armor that grants a +0 Max dex bonus so no Dex would be applied to AC.
The best I could found for the price was Heavy Armor in Races of Stone.
J-A-R-N-O
02-09-05, 06:29 AM Heavy plate from Underdark has armor bonus of 9, max. dex bonus 0, armor check penalty 10, and it weights 100 lbs. I think that might be the next best choice after Mechanus gear.
Nuntius128
02-09-05, 10:47 AM Grolub, the rules are that you apply your Con mod instead of Dex mod to AC, whichever is higher. That means that whatever armor you use, the Maximum Dexterity Modifier equals out to Maximum Constitution Modifier for Deepwardens. You're still limited by the armor you wear as to how much AC you can get. If you were to wear Full-Plate, you could still only get a +1 mod to AC, as that is the most Full-Plate allows.
My advice: Mithral Breastplate.
GrolubFranco
02-09-05, 10:52 AM Nuntius128 that´s incorrect. The con bonus to AC from Deepwarden isn´t limited to Max Dexterity. Being so, it means that virtually you add always your Con to your AC without limit. What I meant with this thread is that if you wear a full plate you´ll be adding +1 derived from your DEX that will automatically disappear the moment you´re adding your CON, meaning it´s better to have a +9 armor with a +0 Max dex.
PaTRiXXX
02-09-05, 11:22 AM GrolubFranco, that may be true RAW but most DM will not see it as you explain.
Nuntius128
02-09-05, 11:30 AM Nuntius128 that´s incorrect. The con bonus to AC from Deepwarden isn´t limited to Max Dexterity.

Check what it says in the book. It doesn't confirm, or deny what either of us say. The general consensus is, then(and this is from the 100's of posts on the subject of the Deepwarden PrC, trust me, look around if you don't believe me) is that nothing changes, except what modifier you use. You still have to limit your AC by the type of armor you use. Its a strict matter of balance. Does it sound like a balanced abuility if you just get free AC as long as you have high enough Constitution and armor? Hardly. Also, when in doubt, explain the situation to your DM, and ask what he/she thinks. Your DM will probably end up ruling the same way that I(and the rest of the board, honestly) have determined it.

The point is, the rules don't say that your AC is unaffected, as you said, by armor's Dexterity limit. If it doesn't state specifically that you can do something, then you can't do it.
fnord
02-09-05, 11:34 AM This issue has been talked about too much on this board already. Until a FAQ or errata clarifies it, stop talking and let each person use whichever interpretation they use in their own game.
GrolubFranco
02-09-05, 11:42 AM Check what it says in the book. It doesn't confirm, or deny what either of us say. The general consensus is, then(and this is from the 100's of posts on the subject of the Deepwarden PrC, trust me, look around if you don't believe me) is that nothing changes, except what modifier you use. You still have to limit your AC by the type of armor you use. Its a strict matter of balance. Does it sound like a balanced abuility if you just get free AC as long as you have high enough Constitution and armor? Hardly. Also, when in doubt, explain the situation to your DM, and ask what he/she thinks. Your DM will probably end up ruling the same way that I(and the rest of the board, honestly) have determined it.

The point is, the rules don't say that your AC is unaffected, as you said, by armor's Dexterity limit. If it doesn't state specifically that you can do something, then you can't do it.

First Deepwarden demands you´ll be dwarf, and that will already limit the characters. Second, will you have that big CON that´s considered broken? Sure it´s good, but I don´t think it´s broken! I like deepwarden because of this ability, but also for the saves, that is the goodness of this class. If it wasn to be limited by your DEX the class would be useless because most dwarfs would tend to use heavy armor instead.
rilem
02-09-05, 11:57 AM The general consensus is ... You still have to limit your AC by the type of armor you use. Its a strict matter of balance. Does it sound like a balanced abuility if you just get free AC as long as you have high enough Constitution and armor?

I've read a large number of the DeepWarden threads and have seen no such consensus. It seems almost evenly split to me, and as noted there's nothing addressing the subject in FAQs or other rulings.

I personally lean towards ruling that an Ability Cap of some sort should apply, but it's not a slam dunk and I've built PCs using both models. DeepWarden is relatively complicated to get into without limiting yourself to light/med. armor anyway.

As such, any question on "best armor" for DeepWarden should account for both armor scenarios.
Jeremymc
02-09-05, 01:46 PM Yah, it's a ridiculous concept, but Customer Service will tell you that the CON bonus to AC is NOT affected by the Max Dex bonus of the armour. It really really breaks the game for the Deepwarden Ranger, who can thus gain a whole bunch of AC points over and above the plain old dwarf fighter...

Frankly, most DMs will indeed limit your CON to AC. Check your house rules.
El_Machinae
02-09-05, 01:49 PM I expect that you got to Deepwarden either through Barbarian or Ranger. In both cases, you're encouraged to wear lighter armor to get your full bonuses. In one case I'd recommend a mithril breastplate, and in the other, I'd recommend a mithril full plate.

I wish there was an enchantment that would alter your armor from light to heavy to medium as a standard action. There is armor in the Planar Handbook that can be sectioned on and off ... and there are weapons that can change size ...
catharz
02-09-05, 01:51 PM Yah, it's a ridiculous concept, but Customer Service will tell you that the CON bonus to AC is NOT affected by the Max Dex bonus of the armour.

Seriously?

'Cause if so, KICK ASS!
I was convinced that the RAW was for max dex to apply. But if the Metatron says otherwise, I'm a happy camper.
Baneslayer
02-09-05, 01:55 PM Mithral Full Plate with Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater HAO feats (because even though Mithral armor is considered one catagory lighter for movement and other penalties - Heavy Armor Type is still heavy armor for the feats).

+11 Armor bonus, zero Armor penalty, up to 3 Dex bonus. If your DM is going to cap the Con bonus the same as a Dex bonus to armor, this gives you the most boost for any heavy armor.

+1 Mith FP will cost you 11.5k gold.

I assume you are fighter based. With the Mith FP, you can also take some levels of Barb and retain the +10' speed add because it is considered Medium Armor for movement and weight purposes and you already have Heavy Armor Proficiency from your fighter levels. Truly the best of both worlds here. Also, the Barb levels will stack with the DeepW levels for your Imp Uncanny Dodge.

The earliest a straight fighter can get to Deepwarden is at lvl 7, that gives you three levels of Barb to mix in with the 10 levels of Deepwarden.
Jeremymc
02-09-05, 02:07 PM Seriously?

'Cause if so, KICK ASS!
I was convinced that the RAW was for max dex to apply. But if the Metatron says otherwise, I'm a happy camper.

Yah, it's insane and ridiculous and completely game-breaking, but that's what Custserv says. Frankly, this rule will appear in NONE of my games. Deepwarden will be limited to Max Dex of the armour.

They also say that the Defender's Damage Reduction doesn't stack with any other physical form of Damage Reduction. Which is total bull-xxxx when Eberron gives you "stonemeld" armour for 50 000 gold. DR 5/-.

So they effectively removed HALF of what made the Defender so cool. They still get a huge AC bonus. But the DR rules are absolute CRAP.

I mean... grr... makes me so mad. They keep on screwing the Defender. First Adamantine armour. Now Stonemeld armour... I mean... by the time you're a tenth level defender, a DR of 6/- is basically bird seed. Who cares? No one you're fighting at 10th level will be dealing less than 45 damage with a single hit.

and especially since they made feats like "combat brute" and the FB's power attack ability, which basically makes a DR of 6/- a light candy coating on the defender's soft nougat center. And they even made the DR feat increase DR by ONE instead of TWO in 3.5!!!! TOTAL GARBAGE!!! They keep on frelling the Dwarves.
GrolubFranco
02-09-05, 03:17 PM Yah, it's a ridiculous concept, but Customer Service will tell you that the CON bonus to AC is NOT affected by the Max Dex bonus of the armour. It really really breaks the game for the Deepwarden Ranger, who can thus gain a whole bunch of AC points over and above the plain old dwarf fighter...

Frankly, most DMs will indeed limit your CON to AC. Check your house rules.

By the level I achieve deepwarden I would be 18 CON. Is that so great adding +4 to AC? Sure it´s cool, but please it´s not broken!!! If it was limited by the max dex, what was the point of this class?! Eventough, can´t understand why some people still insist on mithrall plate, because I can´t stack Dex and Con, so I only need armor that give the more base AC possible, no need for Dex, since I´ll lose it the moment I achieve deepwarden 2.
catharz
02-09-05, 03:32 PM I mean... grr... makes me so mad. They keep on screwing the Defender.

Kinda like a monk's Ki strike. Hopefully 4e/3.675e will improve stacking rules over the previous edition as much as 3.0e did.

By the level I achieve deepwarden I would be 18 CON. Is that so great adding +4 to AC? Sure it´s cool, but please it´s not broken!!! If it was limited by the max dex, what was the point of this class?! Eventough, can´t understand why some people still insist on mithrall plate, because I can´t stack Dex and Con, so I only need armor that give the more base AC possible, no need for Dex, since I´ll lose it the moment I achieve deepwarden 2.

The AC thing isn't broken, it is just very powerful. You effectively eliminate Dex as an important stat. Then you add your Con bonus in addition to any armor, which gives you an AC 5 or more points higher than a guy who focused on Dex. And you get a touch AC that is probably higher than the Dex character, because even high-Dex characters need a decent Con.

It gives you the best of both worlds, and then some.
GrolubFranco
02-09-05, 03:37 PM First, it must be a dwarf, and look at the number of skill points required for deepwarden! Dex will always be important for AoO, Reflex save, etc. It will never be a dump stat. In the same line of tough, you must say that the exalted feat that grants wisdom to attacks is also completely broken!
Nuntius128
02-09-05, 03:42 PM OK, this is the last thing I'm gonna say on the matter: the rule states that you use the higher modifier where appropriate. It says nothing about the rule changing, you just use the higher modifier. That's it. You're dexterity modifier to AC is only replaced by a higher number, not a different bonus, it isn't natural armor.
But, yes, you can do whatever you want to. But it isn't otherwise anywhere in the rules. If it is, please cite where you found this information.

Also, the Wisdom modifier to attacks isn't broken, its just like Weapon Finesse. I am not saying the ability itself is broken, I'm saying that stacking the Stonewarden bonus with any armor you wear without limit is broken.
Sir Gummibaerchen
02-09-05, 04:05 PM Mechanus gear from the planar handbook! It's +10AC, no max dex and makes you move slower. UNLESS you are a dwarf that is!
GrolubFranco
02-09-05, 04:14 PM My DM doesn´t allow planar handbook because he says I couldn´t find anywhere in the material plane the mechanus armor.
catharz
02-09-05, 04:21 PM First, it must be a dwarf, and look at the number of skill points required for deepwarden! Dex will always be important for AoO, Reflex save, etc. It will never be a dump stat.

So, what Dex score would you give a heavily armored dwarf tank? Say, 25 and 32 point buys.

In the same line of tough, you must say that the exalted feat that grants wisdom to attacks is also completely broken!

Again, not broken. If there weren't so many more overpowered feats for clerics and druids, it would rank very high on the power spectrum. As things stand, it tends to get bypassed by Divine metamagic (Persistant), Initiate of Mystra, and so on.
Fugazi
02-09-05, 04:31 PM Good god, read his initial post will you.

He isn't allowed to use that.
Telmar
02-10-05, 12:39 PM For Two-Weapon Deepwarden (Two-weapon style Ranger):

Halfweight (Underdark, p.70) Fullplate. It's light armor, but price - +3 bonus.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GrolubFranco 02-09-05, 05:19 AM	Hi to all! I wanted to know what could be the best low budget armor for a character planning on going for Deepwarden in a couple of lvl´s. My DM doesn´t allow Mechanus Armor, so forget about it. I currently have a +1 Full plate. What do you think?
happycows 02-09-05, 05:48 AM	Get an armor that suits your constitution bonus. If you have 22 constitution then you'll most likely be wearing light armor... Mithrall chainshirt is pretty cheap and great if you have 20 constitution.
GrolubFranco 02-09-05, 05:52 AM	That´s not the point, because the moment I´ll go to deepwarden I´ll loose all my Dex bonus from armor, because I´ll be applying my CON instead. So, I would be needing a armor that grants a +0 Max dex bonus so no Dex would be applied to AC. The best I could found for the price was Heavy Armor in Races of Stone.
J-A-R-N-O 02-09-05, 06:29 AM	Heavy plate from Underdark has armor bonus of 9, max. dex bonus 0, armor check penalty 10, and it weights 100 lbs. I think that might be the next best choice after Mechanus gear.
Nuntius128 02-09-05, 10:47 AM	Grolub, the rules are that you apply your Con mod instead of Dex mod to AC, whichever is higher. That means that whatever armor you use, the Maximum Dexterity Modifier equals out to Maximum Constitution Modifier for Deepwardens. You're still limited by the armor you wear as to how much AC you can get. If you were to wear Full-Plate, you could still only get a +1 mod to AC, as that is the most Full-Plate allows. My advice: Mithral Breastplate.
GrolubFranco 02-09-05, 10:52 AM	Nuntius128 that´s incorrect. The con bonus to AC from Deepwarden isn´t limited to Max Dexterity. Being so, it means that virtually you add always your Con to your AC without limit. What I meant with this thread is that if you wear a full plate you´ll be adding +1 derived from your DEX that will automatically disappear the moment you´re adding your CON, meaning it´s better to have a +9 armor with a +0 Max dex.
PaTRiXXX 02-09-05, 11:22 AM	GrolubFranco, that may be true RAW but most DM will not see it as you explain.
Nuntius128 02-09-05, 11:30 AM	Nuntius128 that´s incorrect. The con bonus to AC from Deepwarden isn´t limited to Max Dexterity. Check what it says in the book. It doesn't confirm, or deny what either of us say. The general consensus is, then(and this is from the 100's of posts on the subject of the Deepwarden PrC, trust me, look around if you don't believe me) is that nothing changes, except what modifier you use. You still have to limit your AC by the type of armor you use. Its a strict matter of balance. Does it sound like a balanced abuility if you just get free AC as long as you have high enough Constitution and armor? Hardly. Also, when in doubt, explain the situation to your DM, and ask what he/she thinks. Your DM will probably end up ruling the same way that I(and the rest of the board, honestly) have determined it. The point is, the rules don't say that your AC is unaffected, as you said, by armor's Dexterity limit. If it doesn't state specifically that you can do something, then you can't do it.
fnord 02-09-05, 11:34 AM	This issue has been talked about too much on this board already. Until a FAQ or errata clarifies it, stop talking and let each person use whichever interpretation they use in their own game.
GrolubFranco 02-09-05, 11:42 AM	Check what it says in the book. It doesn't confirm, or deny what either of us say. The general consensus is, then(and this is from the 100's of posts on the subject of the Deepwarden PrC, trust me, look around if you don't believe me) is that nothing changes, except what modifier you use. You still have to limit your AC by the type of armor you use. Its a strict matter of balance. Does it sound like a balanced abuility if you just get free AC as long as you have high enough Constitution and armor? Hardly. Also, when in doubt, explain the situation to your DM, and ask what he/she thinks. Your DM will probably end up ruling the same way that I(and the rest of the board, honestly) have determined it. The point is, the rules don't say that your AC is unaffected, as you said, by armor's Dexterity limit. If it doesn't state specifically that you can do something, then you can't do it. First Deepwarden demands you´ll be dwarf, and that will already limit the characters. Second, will you have that big CON that´s considered broken? Sure it´s good, but I don´t think it´s broken! I like deepwarden because of this ability, but also for the saves, that is the goodness of this class. If it wasn to be limited by your DEX the class would be useless because most dwarfs would tend to use heavy armor instead.
rilem 02-09-05, 11:57 AM	The general consensus is ... You still have to limit your AC by the type of armor you use. Its a strict matter of balance. Does it sound like a balanced abuility if you just get free AC as long as you have high enough Constitution and armor? I've read a large number of the DeepWarden threads and have seen no such consensus. It seems almost evenly split to me, and as noted there's nothing addressing the subject in FAQs or other rulings. I personally lean towards ruling that an Ability Cap of some sort should apply, but it's not a slam dunk and I've built PCs using both models. DeepWarden is relatively complicated to get into without limiting yourself to light/med. armor anyway. As such, any question on "best armor" for DeepWarden should account for both armor scenarios.
Jeremymc 02-09-05, 01:46 PM	Yah, it's a ridiculous concept, but Customer Service will tell you that the CON bonus to AC is NOT affected by the Max Dex bonus of the armour. It really really breaks the game for the Deepwarden Ranger, who can thus gain a whole bunch of AC points over and above the plain old dwarf fighter... Frankly, most DMs will indeed limit your CON to AC. Check your house rules.
El_Machinae 02-09-05, 01:49 PM	I expect that you got to Deepwarden either through Barbarian or Ranger. In both cases, you're encouraged to wear lighter armor to get your full bonuses. In one case I'd recommend a mithril breastplate, and in the other, I'd recommend a mithril full plate. I wish there was an enchantment that would alter your armor from light to heavy to medium as a standard action. There is armor in the Planar Handbook that can be sectioned on and off ... and there are weapons that can change size ...
catharz 02-09-05, 01:51 PM	Yah, it's a ridiculous concept, but Customer Service will tell you that the CON bonus to AC is NOT affected by the Max Dex bonus of the armour. Seriously? 'Cause if so, KICK ASS! I was convinced that the RAW was for max dex to apply. But if the Metatron says otherwise, I'm a happy camper.
Baneslayer 02-09-05, 01:55 PM	Mithral Full Plate with Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater HAO feats (because even though Mithral armor is considered one catagory lighter for movement and other penalties - Heavy Armor Type is still heavy armor for the feats). +11 Armor bonus, zero Armor penalty, up to 3 Dex bonus. If your DM is going to cap the Con bonus the same as a Dex bonus to armor, this gives you the most boost for any heavy armor. +1 Mith FP will cost you 11.5k gold. I assume you are fighter based. With the Mith FP, you can also take some levels of Barb and retain the +10' speed add because it is considered Medium Armor for movement and weight purposes and you already have Heavy Armor Proficiency from your fighter levels. Truly the best of both worlds here. Also, the Barb levels will stack with the DeepW levels for your Imp Uncanny Dodge. The earliest a straight fighter can get to Deepwarden is at lvl 7, that gives you three levels of Barb to mix in with the 10 levels of Deepwarden.
Jeremymc 02-09-05, 02:07 PM	Seriously? 'Cause if so, KICK ASS! I was convinced that the RAW was for max dex to apply. But if the Metatron says otherwise, I'm a happy camper. Yah, it's insane and ridiculous and completely game-breaking, but that's what Custserv says. Frankly, this rule will appear in NONE of my games. Deepwarden will be limited to Max Dex of the armour. They also say that the Defender's Damage Reduction doesn't stack with any other physical form of Damage Reduction. Which is total bull-xxxx when Eberron gives you "stonemeld" armour for 50 000 gold. DR 5/-. So they effectively removed HALF of what made the Defender so cool. They still get a huge AC bonus. But the DR rules are absolute CRAP. I mean... grr... makes me so mad. They keep on screwing the Defender. First Adamantine armour. Now Stonemeld armour... I mean... by the time you're a tenth level defender, a DR of 6/- is basically bird seed. Who cares? No one you're fighting at 10th level will be dealing less than 45 damage with a single hit. and especially since they made feats like "combat brute" and the FB's power attack ability, which basically makes a DR of 6/- a light candy coating on the defender's soft nougat center. And they even made the DR feat increase DR by ONE instead of TWO in 3.5!!!! TOTAL GARBAGE!!! They keep on frelling the Dwarves.
GrolubFranco 02-09-05, 03:17 PM	Yah, it's a ridiculous concept, but Customer Service will tell you that the CON bonus to AC is NOT affected by the Max Dex bonus of the armour. It really really breaks the game for the Deepwarden Ranger, who can thus gain a whole bunch of AC points over and above the plain old dwarf fighter... Frankly, most DMs will indeed limit your CON to AC. Check your house rules. By the level I achieve deepwarden I would be 18 CON. Is that so great adding +4 to AC? Sure it´s cool, but please it´s not broken!!! If it was limited by the max dex, what was the point of this class?! Eventough, can´t understand why some people still insist on mithrall plate, because I can´t stack Dex and Con, so I only need armor that give the more base AC possible, no need for Dex, since I´ll lose it the moment I achieve deepwarden 2.
catharz 02-09-05, 03:32 PM	I mean... grr... makes me so mad. They keep on screwing the Defender. Kinda like a monk's Ki strike. Hopefully 4e/3.675e will improve stacking rules over the previous edition as much as 3.0e did. By the level I achieve deepwarden I would be 18 CON. Is that so great adding +4 to AC? Sure it´s cool, but please it´s not broken!!! If it was limited by the max dex, what was the point of this class?! Eventough, can´t understand why some people still insist on mithrall plate, because I can´t stack Dex and Con, so I only need armor that give the more base AC possible, no need for Dex, since I´ll lose it the moment I achieve deepwarden 2. The AC thing isn't broken, it is just very powerful. You effectively eliminate Dex as an important stat. Then you add your Con bonus in addition to any armor, which gives you an AC 5 or more points higher than a guy who focused on Dex. And you get a touch AC that is probably higher than the Dex character, because even high-Dex characters need a decent Con. It gives you the best of both worlds, and then some.
GrolubFranco 02-09-05, 03:37 PM	First, it must be a dwarf, and look at the number of skill points required for deepwarden! Dex will always be important for AoO, Reflex save, etc. It will never be a dump stat. In the same line of tough, you must say that the exalted feat that grants wisdom to attacks is also completely broken!
Nuntius128 02-09-05, 03:42 PM	OK, this is the last thing I'm gonna say on the matter: the rule states that you use the higher modifier where appropriate. It says nothing about the rule changing, you just use the higher modifier. That's it. You're dexterity modifier to AC is only replaced by a higher number, not a different bonus, it isn't natural armor. But, yes, you can do whatever you want to. But it isn't otherwise anywhere in the rules. If it is, please cite where you found this information. Also, the Wisdom modifier to attacks isn't broken, its just like Weapon Finesse. I am not saying the ability itself is broken, I'm saying that stacking the Stonewarden bonus with any armor you wear without limit is broken.
Sir Gummibaerchen 02-09-05, 04:05 PM	Mechanus gear from the planar handbook! It's +10AC, no max dex and makes you move slower. UNLESS you are a dwarf that is!
GrolubFranco 02-09-05, 04:14 PM	My DM doesn´t allow planar handbook because he says I couldn´t find anywhere in the material plane the mechanus armor.
catharz 02-09-05, 04:21 PM	First, it must be a dwarf, and look at the number of skill points required for deepwarden! Dex will always be important for AoO, Reflex save, etc. It will never be a dump stat. So, what Dex score would you give a heavily armored dwarf tank? Say, 25 and 32 point buys. In the same line of tough, you must say that the exalted feat that grants wisdom to attacks is also completely broken! Again, not broken. If there weren't so many more overpowered feats for clerics and druids, it would rank very high on the power spectrum. As things stand, it tends to get bypassed by Divine metamagic (Persistant), Initiate of Mystra, and so on.
Fugazi 02-09-05, 04:31 PM	Good god, read his initial post will you. He isn't allowed to use that.
Telmar 02-10-05, 12:39 PM	For Two-Weapon Deepwarden (Two-weapon style Ranger): Halfweight (Underdark, p.70) Fullplate. It's light armor, but price - +3 bonus.