Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlaineTog 01-06-04, 09:22 PM	My group has staged a fighting arena, and I'm almost positive it's gonna come down to My Bard vs. the fully teaked-out, min-maxed, Vow of Poverty Elven Monk. Both are 13th level. The way it looks now, my friend's monk vs. my Bard will come out almost exactly even. I was wondering: what is the best build of a Bard to take down a Vow of Poverty Monk?
balefire42 01-06-04, 09:42 PM	Flight and a bow. Use winged boots, a potion, UMD a scroll/wand, etc. Fly up in the air, and shoot him to pieces. P.S. do everyone a favor, and shorten your signature.
BlaineTog 01-06-04, 10:13 PM	Flight: Have the 3e Broom of Flying. Bow: Have a really nice Shortbow Potions: None UMD Scroll/Wand: If I had 1 single scroll of Meteor Swarm, I would win, no contest. All I need is 4k. As for shooting him to pieces, it can't happen, as much as I would like it too. He has an AC of 32-ish, and my attacks are +19/+14. I have a shot, but it's not all that likely, 'specially since he can jump up and get me. "Wounding Whispers" from Magic of Faerun gives me a good chance. 16.5 average damage to him every tiem he hits me, no save. P.S. do everyone a favor, and shorten your signature. "User CP" -> "Edit Profile" -> in "Additional Information," "Signature Display Limit."
balefire42 01-06-04, 10:23 PM	I believe the DC of a 60' high jump is 240, I doubt he can jump that high. So what if you only hit him half the time, you are still hitting him while he can't hit you (granted, he can use a crossbow, but you should be a better archer than him).
BlaineTog 01-06-04, 10:43 PM	I am a better archer. Thank you for noticing. :D I had no idea the DC was that High. This makes my whole strategy Muuuuuuuuch better. *purrs* Actually, He can't use a crossbow, since he has Vow of Poverty. If he pickes one up with the intent of actually *using* it, he loses all of his Vow of Poverty feat. That's a big hit, since it's a major contributor to his character.
newblar32 01-06-04, 11:10 PM	with vow of poverty he is allowed to own one non-masterwork non-magical simple weapon, aka a crossbow
snb1131 01-06-04, 11:12 PM	...but he can't own the bolts... LOL
BlaineTog 01-06-04, 11:45 PM	Originally posted by snb1131 ...but he can't own the bolts... http://majik.be/smilies/rofl.gif In any case, THIS monk doesn't. And even if she did, she would have a hard time hitting me ('specially since I'd be invisible).
snb1131 01-06-04, 11:57 PM	Fair enough... I just meant my post to be a joke for the whole 'flavor of the month Monk/VoP" craze going on...LOL Personally, I LOVE the Wounding Whispers spell...if they're going to hit you, they're going to get hurt doing it...hee hee hee.
BlaineTog 01-07-04, 12:10 AM	Originally posted by snb1131 Fair enough... :confused: I wasnb't trying to be sarcastic, ya know. [/not sarcastic. Really.] I just meant my post to be a joke for the whole 'flavor of the month Monk/VoP" craze going on...LOL Oh yeah, no question. The dude bought BoED and built his characte from there. It has a Ravage on it's fists. It does uber damage vs evil things. If I was Evil, I would die from *probably* one round of Flurry, for sure. VoP is powerful (Might be Overpowered, But I haven't had time to anyalzye it in its entierty). Personally, I LOVE the Wounding Whispers spell...if they're going to hit you, they're going to get hurt doing it...hee hee hee. :D Me 2. Awesome spell, really cool. 'Specially since it doesn't offer a save (ie the Monk isn't immune).
Boondoggle 01-07-04, 05:49 AM	Buy a wand of enervation & have a +19 UMD. Either kill him with the wand, or zap him a few times to give him a -7 or -8 to damn near everything.
neoweasel 01-07-04, 09:07 AM	The problem with that is Enervation needs a ranged touch attack to hit. The Monk's AC is approx 32, and I'd assume that virtually all of that is going to be applicable for a ranged touch attack.
Andreas0815 01-07-04, 09:56 AM	If the monk has a AC this high you should have MANY arrows with you. Or you would fly and canīt shot (out of arrows) and the monk stands on the ground and wait for you to fall down because the spell ends so he can beat the **** out of you.
quetzyl 01-07-04, 10:37 AM	Remember that the monk may well have deflect arrows. In which case, he automatically deflects the first arrow to actually strike him each round. If he has AC 32, and you have +19/+14 attacks, you will only hit him at all if you roll 13+ with the first shot and 18+ with the second. By my rough calculations, that is a 3.5% chance of hitting him per round. Trying to kill monks with archery is all but impossible. Cheers, quetzyl
quetzyl 01-07-04, 10:41 AM	+ ranged touch spells may be the key. Buy a wand of true strike to go with a couple of scrolls of enervate, and waste him that way. Cheers, quetzyl
Andreas0815 01-07-04, 10:52 AM	Well, true strike is not on the Bards List so you need a UMD Skill of 19+ to use the wand every round for sure. Also what are good touch spells a bard has? A sorc/cleric would be fine here or a barb would do well vs a monk, but with a bard i see little chances of sucess...
Funny Slaughter 01-07-04, 11:30 AM	UMD Skill of 19+ which is one of the easiest tasks for a bard lvl 13, dont you think? gs Funny
Artexerxees 01-07-04, 03:37 PM	Feats like spell focus and greater spell focus(Enchantment) would help. Use spells such as hold person, hold monster, and mind fog. I think it is mind fog, I don't have the books with me. It is the one that sets a - 10 to all will saves. You must have ranks in tumble to get away so you can cast your spells. Monks have good saves all around. So, you will have to keep casting till he fails. That is the spell casting side of things. If your con is at 16 or higher and this monk does not have a high strength, you might be able to fight him. Fascinate him at your first turn. Then give a suggestion to lay down and go to sleep. Then kill the character out right. Of course, this takes a high Charisma and all you have got in Perform-orate. Fascinate is the Bards first weapon of choice, If there are no other threats around.
JoostBuijs 01-07-04, 04:21 PM	uhm .. win initiative or die. :P
BlaineTog 01-07-04, 07:39 PM	Originally posted by quetzyl Remember that the monk may well have deflect arrows. In which case, he automatically deflects the first arrow to actually strike him each round. If he has AC 32, and you have +19/+14 attacks, you will only hit him at all if you roll 13+ with the first shot and 18+ with the second. By my rough calculations, that is a 3.5% chance of hitting him per round. Trying to kill monks with archery is all but impossible. Hmm... possibley. I don't think he has Deflect Arrows (he would have said something by now), but it's possible. Feats like spell focus and greater spell focus(Enchantment) would help. Use spells such as hold person, hold monster, and mind fog. That was My first impulse, but he is totally min/maxed and has something like +30 agaisnt Enchantments. He would have to roll a 1. If your con is at 16 or higher and this monk does not have a high strength, you might be able to fight him. This is a posibility. I could cast Wounding Whispers, but since he's Vow of Poverty, he gets Energy Resistence 5 (cutting the usefulness of this). Hmm... if he Flurries, that's 8d6+20 (4 attacks) delt to me, and 4d6+32 fom him (taking that darn energy Resistence into account). He'll be taking an average of 2 point/round less than I. Of course, I still get my attack. Now, I move 30-ft back and hit him with 1 arrow (on a roll of 13 or higher). I would do 1d6+5 (average of 8). So I damage him 6 point/round more than he can damage me. Problem is, he also has 20 more HP than me and I can't last much more than 2 round (if I'm lucky). Hmm... If I take to the sky on my 3e Broom and cast Improved invisibility, then I have 130 rounds to take him down. If I shoot 1 arrow/round (both to conserve arrows and so that I get a move action in and he can't try to Jump at me), and I will hit 7/20 times, and he has 101 HP, and I do an average of 8 damage, it will take 40-ish rounds to take him down. :eek: Assuming he doesn't have Deflect Arrows. Fortunatelly, I have Elhonna Efficient Quiver, so I got 120 arrows. But I agree: Bard vs. Monk is not an optimal battle. More optimal than Monk vs. Sor/Wiz, but still brutal. [quote]Fascinate him at your first turn. Then give a suggestion to lay down and go to sleep. Then kill the character out right. Of course, this takes a high Charisma and all you have got in Perform-orate. Fascinate is the Bards first weapon of choice, If there are no other threats around.[.quote] That is an AWESOME idea! The save for my Fasicante is MUCH higher than my spells (and possible high enough to give me a good chance of Fascinating the punk!).
Boondoggle 01-07-04, 08:08 PM	1 carpet of flying: 20,000 gp Wand of True Strike: 750 gp Wand of Enervation: 21,000 gp Paniced expression as monk's player realizes impending doom: Priceless There are some things gp can't buy, for everything else, there's a DMG.
ninjarabbit 01-07-04, 08:14 PM	Summon lots of monsters and hide behind them.
BlaineTog 01-07-04, 08:26 PM	Wand of True Strike: 750 gp Wand of Enervation: 21,000 gp Already have a magic broom, and 13 scrolls of Enervation would do it. But that, my friend, is one awesome strategy.
pawsplay 01-08-04, 02:42 AM	Fly, and continuously try to charm him into picking up a few gold pieces. Once he has succumbed, get him.
pawsplay 01-08-04, 02:44 AM	Charm is not the right word. Command or suggest.
Aleph 01-08-04, 11:50 AM	Or Bluff w/ Glibness. How is his Sense Motive? "The Poverty is symbolic, not literal... Ooops" But really, you've probably lost. Optimal Bard v. Monk is the Bard using his persuasive abilities to get the local thieves guild thinking the Monk is a danger to their activities. Mano a mano, it's playing into the Monks strengths and the Bards weaknesses.
Andreas0815 01-08-04, 11:58 AM	Another advice: Try to trick him into breaking his vow. I have actualy no idea how, but hey, maybe an other forum member here has a good idea... Put a hat of disguise on his head or something else. This should power him down a lot. :D :behold:
BlaineTog 01-08-04, 07:26 PM	Yes, I know Bard vs. VoP Monk is a bad match. My 1st thought (after outright archery) was to have him break his vows. Sadly, A) my DM apparently doesn't think that vows can be broken :rolleyes: and B) (House)Rule: PCs can't Bluff PCs. HOWEVER. I have a spell called "Imrovisation," castable 1/day. Basically, I get 26 points to assign to any combination of skill checks, Ability Checks, or Attack Rolls. If I assighn it to my Perform Check for Fascinate, I get d20 + 49 (unbeatable on anything other than a 20). So I'm almost certain to Fascinate him. I also have Lingering Song, so I *think* my Fascinate lasts for up to 26 rounds. If I try a Suggestion on him, he can only loose on a roll of a 1. But he has 26 chances to fail. So, according to averages, he'll fail at least once, I like the idea of Hat of Disguise. I doubt my DM will allow it, but it *should* work.
Artexerxees 01-09-04, 10:21 AM	Remember, you get two sentences for free a round. I'm thinking you get two sentences for the suggestion, I don't quite remember. The full suggestion is, "I suggest you go to sleep before me now for I will protect you. You are safe." Remember there are many ways to beef up you charisma score. Inherit scores from the books, 'Armor of command' from the Tome and Blood, and the good ole Cloak of Charisma. Let us all know how it all turns out.
SmiloDan 01-09-04, 11:03 AM	Um, if there is an audience, maybe appeal to them to intercede? Or summon lots and lots Huge Centipedes. Unless PoV makes you immune to poison....um, never mind....being a monk does that... Well, since she's an elf, I would work on the Fort saves. Can you summon undead of any kind? Shadows would be nasty. Maybe trap her in a hole some how? Can you Summon Swarm? Those cause automatic damage. Or scrolls of Insect Plague or Creeping Doom. Heck, open up a bank account in her name, then slip her the bank card using Sleight of Hand. Reverse Gravity? Look for spells with no SR or Saves.
BlaineTog 01-10-04, 02:58 AM	Remember, you get two sentences for free a round. I'm thinking you get two sentences for the suggestion, I don't quite remember. The full suggestion is, "I suggest you go to sleep before me now for I will protect you. You are safe." Sounds good, although I'd include "turn around so I can't bother you" or something. :devil: Um, if there is an audience, maybe appeal to them to intercede? If there was to be an audience, I would not be alowed to use them, sadly. Or summon lots and lots Huge Centipedes. Unless PoV makes you immune to poison....um, never mind....being a monk does that... It probably does make you immune to poisons, just to rub it in my face. Oh well. C'est la vie! Well, since she's an elf, I would work on the Fort saves. Can you summon undead of any kind? Shadows would be nasty. Fort saves are probably the way to go. Problem is: I don't have any (nearly all Will, her strongest). :blush: Maybe trap her in a hole some how? Can you Summon Swarm? Those cause automatic damage. Or scrolls of Insect Plague or Creeping Doom. Bard's arn't big summoners (although this option would certainly work). Heck, open up a bank account in her name, then slip her the bank card using Sleight of Hand. :rofl: I love it! Awesome! Reverse Gravity? Look for spells with no SR or Saves. Most spells w/o saves (SR doesn't matter: she doesn't have it) are on the Sor/Wiz/Clc list, not Bards. Oh well. Let us all know how it all turns out. OK, but remember that you asked for it! After the initial elimination, there were 4 remaining PCs: The dreaded Monk, the laughable Barbarian (so easy ot beat), the 50/50 Cleric (has a Defenders of the Faith PrC that lets him 1/2 Will and Fort saves, so my offensive magic is useless), and Me, the Bard. Me vs. Cleric in a gladatorial Stadium, Monk vs. Barbarian in an underground cave (both have Blindfight). I was totally slaughtering the cleric (flying and invisible), I greases his feet, etc etc. He ran towards the wall (passed check), jumbed/climbed up a 15-foot wall, and hid under a bench (full cover unless I was literally standing right in fornt of his prone body). He had invisibility Purge on (30-foot radius). I dispelled it, and he did *something* that took 30 (3-0) rounds (I think he as trying to tall down the power of his god on me or something). I climbed under the bench also- but 15-feet away along the perimeter, and killed him with easily 20 rounds to spare. Monk vs. Barbarian: Barb had a great strategy and got lucky. I never had to face the monk. :-/ Me vs. Barb: I would have won (really), but 1st place was a cohort + a feat + a +1 luck bonus to BaB/Save DCs and 2nd was the same w/o the cohort, so I let him win (I don't want to cohort!). It was fun, though, using Silent Image to trick him into walking into my arrow. :D Remeber: you asked for it!
JosephKell 01-10-04, 03:08 AM	Damn monks... they are warriors with good will saves... Too bad you can't just suggest he forfeit.
raistlin42 01-10-04, 04:32 AM	Use UMD on a scroll of Empowered Acid Fog. That limits his movement to 5 feet, no SR, no save, and damages him every round. At 13th level, he doesn't have Freedom of Movement yet. So he takes either 2d6 *1.5 acid damage. He will have acid resistance 5, so that's only 4 points of damage a round on average. However, if you have blindsight from anything (like a scroll of blindsight) and either improved precise shot or a seeking bow, you can shoot him while he's in the fog. Since he can't see you, he's flat footed (so easier to hit), and can't deflect your arrows. Don't forget about the Heroism/Greater Heroism line of spells, as well as Good Hope. True strike is another good spell to use. I would say your best bet is to get a bunch of scrolls, and buff while he's trying to get out of the fog...Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might all come to mind. Fully buffed, he should be no match for you in melee. Hell, get a scroll of Tensor's Transformation to top it off, and go beat him down with your weapon of choice. Let's see...assuming you start with 10 str, after those buffs (assuimg the lowest possible caster level) you'll have like a +26 or so to hit with a melee weapon and possibly DR 5/evil (depends on your DM). I think at that point, you make the monk cry. Edit: OR, I can wait too long to post, the battle's over :( Oh well, I tried.
Artexerxees 01-13-04, 11:23 PM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Me vs. Barb: I would have won (really), but 1st place was a cohort + a feat + a +1 luck bonus to BaB/Save DCs and 2nd was the same w/o the cohort, so I let him win (I don't want to cohort!). It was fun, though, using Silent Image to trick him into walking into my arrow. :D Remeber: you asked for it! I salute you, you did very well. You could have won and told the DM that you didn't want the cohort and you would let it go to the Barbarian anyway. Oh-well, at least you didn't embarrass yourself.