Best Bard? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Best Bard? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CookieFiend
02-03-07, 10:06 AM I know it sounds like an oximoron but I need to make the best bard there can be. I tend to have very little experiance when it comes to casting charecters and such, I typically use sneaks. I intend to make a bard that typically stays away from close combat. Other than that I need serious help making a bard that can survive and be fun in a party of a half-elf 10Wizard/10Cleric, a halforcBarb20, and a human samuria. Here are the books I can use:
Complete Series(Except mage)
All the Race's of Books
Sandstorm
Stromwreck
FrostBurn
Core Rulebooks
PHB2
Unearthearth Arcana(my DM said I could use his LOL)
ToB
HoB
MoI
Forgotten Realms
PH to Ebberon

p.s. I was looking at FochLucan Lyrist but I hear Sublime Cord is good too.
If you have an;y advice at all from races, classes, items, and feats post it here.
Sang-Drax
02-03-07, 10:14 AM (...) survive and be fun in a party of a half-elf 10Wizard/10Cleric, a halforcBarb20, and a human samurai (...)

Are you serious? You'd probably outshine every single one of them with a standard Bard 20.

Now, you should narrow your build a little. Do you want a melee bard? A caster bard? A bard specialized in bardic music alone? A melee/caster (a.k.a. Gish) bard?

Bards offer several options. You might as well tell us what your stats are.

Btw, you're using PG to Eberron... any access to Eberron Campaign Setting as well? If offers some nice stuff to bards (Song of the Heart as a bonus feat instead of a new bardic music, for instance).
CookieFiend
02-03-07, 09:09 PM Definantly not combat.
Mostly song but some music too.
You don't think its better to go off into a PrC?
I thought FochLucan Lyrist would be good, but it would be hard to develop.
Caelic
02-03-07, 09:17 PM Yes, it's better to go into a PrC; his point was that your fellow party members are very poorly designed. Wiz 10/Cleric 10 is about the worst choice you can possibly make.

Is the group at level 20? If so, starting a FocLyr will work out just fine; I can show you a lovely build.
Adrian_Crane
02-03-07, 09:21 PM FocLyr will also make your Wiz 10/Clr 10 character cry...he took the worst possible approach to dual casting that's humanly possible. You, by contrast, will be really good at it.
Edea
02-03-07, 10:08 PM God, even Mystic Theurge would have done that guy some good ;_;. Or at the very least Dweomerkeeper (Complete Divine version), if he was that hellbent on taking Clr and Wiz simultaneously.
jameswilliamogle
02-03-07, 10:13 PM Heck, he doesn't even need to use PrC's to outshine the party w/ that book selection.
LogicNinja
02-03-07, 10:27 PM Seriously, at this point, you SHOULDN'T optimize. Your party ranges from "mediocre" (barbarian) to "terrible" (samurai) to "pretty much as bad as you can make a character without actively trying" (wiz/cleric).

Just play a bard. Maybe take some archery feats, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. Cast your spells and do your thing. You don't want to put a highly effective character in a party like that, it'll just cause lots of problems.
LogicNinja
02-03-07, 10:36 PM God, even Mystic Theurge would have done that guy some good ;_;. Or at the very least Dweomerkeeper (Complete Divine version), if he was that hellbent on taking Clr and Wiz simultaneously.

I bet he's doing it because it's GOOD ROLEPLAYING and fits his ANGSTY BACKSTORY ABOUT HIS DUAL HERITAGE.

And then when he gets home, he cries. While masturbating.
Edea
02-03-07, 10:44 PM Lol. But really, MT is core. It's kinda hard to imagine a Clr/Wiz not taking at least that unless there was another PrC giving the character something more.

In fact, most (class 1)10/(class 2)10 aren't great ideas if both of those are base classes. Complete Scoundrel changed the rules for a few classes (particularly spellthief, scout, and swashbuckler), but those are exceptions.

On-topic: definitely play a regular Bard. These guys are in it deep.
GaffeR
02-03-07, 10:52 PM I bet he's doing it because it's GOOD ROLEPLAYING and fits his ANGSTY BACKSTORY ABOUT HIS DUAL HERITAGE.

And then when he gets home, he cries. While masturbating.
:rofl: I'd sig that if I thought I wouldn't get in trouble for it.
Blade2718
02-03-07, 11:43 PM :rofl: I'd sig that if I thought I wouldn't get in trouble for it.You can always partially quote him.

Maybe he had to be a dual-caster because there are no PrC options open?
Edea
02-03-07, 11:46 PM In that case, he should've been a Cleric 20. Even a Cleric 20 of Pelor with the Healing and Good domains is a better healer/fighter/problem solver/anything than that horrendous piece.
smage
02-04-07, 12:00 AM Cleric 20 with the Magic Domain works better than Clr10/Wiz10 if the goal is 10th lvl Wizard casting. Slap on the Knowledge Domain (worship Boccob or Vecna) and you even have the Knowledge skills covered (Travel has more of the Wizard spells that Cleric lacks, though; would require not worshipping a god). And that's as "Core" as it gets. ;)

EDIT: If you really want to mess with the party: Go Spellthief (CAr) 1 / Bard 19 and take Master Spellthief (CS) as one of your feats. Laugh maniacally at the party wiz/clr as you cast stolen 9th level spells (both arcane AND divine) while wearing light armor. If you really want to make him cry: do this while wearing heavy armor (after taking Battlecaster 2x).

P.S. - Don't really do that. :P
Wizu
02-04-07, 01:20 AM I bet he's doing it because it's GOOD ROLEPLAYING and fits his ANGSTY BACKSTORY ABOUT HIS DUAL HERITAGE.

And then when he gets home, he cries. While masturbating.

!

Sigged on another forum!
kadeity
02-04-07, 01:23 AM EDIT: If you really want to mess with the party: Go Spellthief (CAr) 1 / Bard 19 and take Master Spellthief (CS) as one of your feats. Laugh maniacally at the party wiz/clr as you cast stolen 9th level spells (both arcane AND divine) while wearing light armor. If you really want to make him cry: do this while wearing heavy armor (after taking Battlecaster 2x).

P.S. - Don't really do that. :P

the clr10/wiz10 has no 9th level spells. Just alot of 1st-5th.
so yeah...he could steal his spells all day long. with that many low level crap spells hes making epic look bad, and deserves to be robbed.

personally im telling myself the OP must have Mis-typed and meant to say he was a half-cleric half-wizard, meaning Mystic Theurge or something equallty likely. I refuse to accept that anyone whos playing two of the three strongest classes in core would murdicate them so brutally with sub-optimal choices.

As for playing a bard in core...its rough. Bard20 is best choice if you dont want to make the rest of the party cry. Since you have a Samurai, im gonna assume its not just core however, and that you can use the compete books at least.

The spelltheif 1/bard 19 was a good suggestion.
really bards using any of the multiclass feats are fun to play.
Personally im a fan of the variant from complete mage that lets you give 20% arcane spellfailure to enemy casters for 3 rounds with one use of bardic music.

Im currently running a bard-build i call "BardZilla" (as a pun on the phrase CoDzilla), and the progression ive planned for him is Harbinger Variant Spellbreaker Variant DivineBard1, Cleric19.

See my primary stats are Cha and Wis.I took the feat "Divine inspiration" from Dragon magazine #333 p85, which lets my bard and cleric levels stack for determining bardic music. Because of this, and being a divine bard, i can cast in heavy armor, as well as do bardic music...and get mad bonuses from my 18 Wis. If you wanted to do this build and have a low cha, you could, but itll cost you another feat. The feat "Hymnist" gives you Wis on Perform, in addition to your Cha... so as long as you have a 10 cha you can do it fine.

The "Harbinger" variant is from Dragon Magazine issue #337, and it lets you replace your previous party buffing bardic music abilities with new enemy nerfing bardic music abilities. This is particularly good when used with the "Blapshemous Utterances" feats from issue #336, which do all sorts of nasty things to the enemy, using bardic music.

If you wanted to be an Undead themed Clerical-Bard, you can do the brd1,clr19 like i did, use divine inspiraiton to make clr stack with bard, then take Requiem, which will let your bardic music affect undead.
if you wanna be an undead slayer, take the harbinger variant, and pick a good deity so you can turn undead and cast head. If you wanna be a necromacner, then keep regular bardic music so you can buff your undead with it (thanks to Requiem) and pick an evil deity, boster undead and inflict spells.

You can also play a Fear themed bard, and just not take cleric at all.
Youll take the Harbinger Variant,The Blasphemous Utterances feats and be sure to get the feat "Haunting Melody" which i think is in the Eberron Campaign setting. Now you can stack those fear effects and panic your foes.

You can also take another route, and be an animal themed bard...though this takes several feats. A few are in the Eberron campaign setting. Youll wanna be at least a 1st level druid..and i think Foluchian lyrist is likely the best prc class for it...though ive never played an animal themed bard myself...ive just noticed the feats.

Anyway, those are my ideas.
smage
02-04-07, 02:35 AM the clr10/wiz10 has no 9th level spells. Just alot of 1st-5th.
so yeah...he could steal his spells all day long. with that many low level crap spells hes making epic look bad, and deserves to be robbed.

Oh, you mistake the depths of my depravity. I didn't mean for him to steal his party member's spells (that's mean, but it's not "spit in his face" mean). I meant steal the spells of his opponents and show his party member how a single level and a single feat allowed him to surpass said member's spell casting ability in almost every way. Difficulty: must be able to deliver a sneak attack and opponent must have spellcasting ability; need to perfect a convincing sneer, too (a snicker might be easier, but a sneer really gets under their skin).

I hope no one is taking me seriously on this...if the guy is having fun as a Wiz10/Clr10, that's all that matters.
PsychoTherapist
02-04-07, 03:46 AM Here are some basic bard builds that might fit into your party without overbalancing things

Rogue type
Bard 7/ Rogue 3/ Arcane Trickster 10

Archer Type
Bard 8 / Arcane Archer 2/ Eldritch Knight 10

Gish
Bard 7/ Rogue 2/ Druid 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 10

All of the above can be made more powerful by using sublime chord 2 at level 10 and then 8 levels of the final PrC
i.e.
Bard 7/ Rogue 3/ Sublime Chord 2/ Arcane Trickster 8
Sang-Drax
02-04-07, 07:20 AM I bet he's doing it because it's GOOD ROLEPLAYING and fits his ANGSTY BACKSTORY ABOUT HIS DUAL HERITAGE.

And then when he gets home, he cries. While masturbating.

:rofl:

Dude, really... your posts are the funniest evah!

CookieFiend:

Like Caelic said, it all depends on the level the campaign is starting at. Fochlucan Lyrist is a pain in the ass to play at low levels (even though it should be equal in power with the rest of the party).

If you don't play to wade into melee, you should definitely consider Sublime Chord from Complete Arcane. It boosts your spellcasting tenfold in lieu of your combat capabilities - though it's rather easy to make an efficient Gish build with full or nigh-full spellcasting, too.
LogicNinja
02-04-07, 07:36 AM :rofl: I'd sig that if I thought I wouldn't get in trouble for it.
I don't see why you would! Masturbation isn't a prohibited word!

!

Sigged on another forum!
Sweet. :D What forum, if I may ask?

:rofl:
Dude, really... your posts are the funniest evah!

Aw, you guys. You're making me blush.

...I do try.
Wizu
02-04-07, 08:41 AM Oh, its my local gaming groups forum. Funny tho, in there masturbation is a prohibited word, and were running the damn thing in finnish!

Odd world this is, odd world. =P

*Adds it to his Wizards sig and waits the world of trouble that'll ensue.*
Votan
02-04-07, 09:17 AM I think, in general, that Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 is a pretty solid build that is going to be better than Bard 20. In such circumstances (a Samurai -- really?) this should be fine in a high level game.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CookieFiend 02-03-07, 10:06 AM	I know it sounds like an oximoron but I need to make the best bard there can be. I tend to have very little experiance when it comes to casting charecters and such, I typically use sneaks. I intend to make a bard that typically stays away from close combat. Other than that I need serious help making a bard that can survive and be fun in a party of a half-elf 10Wizard/10Cleric, a halforcBarb20, and a human samuria. Here are the books I can use: Complete Series(Except mage) All the Race's of Books Sandstorm Stromwreck FrostBurn Core Rulebooks PHB2 Unearthearth Arcana(my DM said I could use his LOL) ToB HoB MoI Forgotten Realms PH to Ebberon p.s. I was looking at FochLucan Lyrist but I hear Sublime Cord is good too. If you have an;y advice at all from races, classes, items, and feats post it here.
Sang-Drax 02-03-07, 10:14 AM	(...) survive and be fun in a party of a half-elf 10Wizard/10Cleric, a halforcBarb20, and a human samurai (...) Are you serious? You'd probably outshine every single one of them with a standard Bard 20. Now, you should narrow your build a little. Do you want a melee bard? A caster bard? A bard specialized in bardic music alone? A melee/caster (a.k.a. Gish) bard? Bards offer several options. You might as well tell us what your stats are. Btw, you're using PG to Eberron... any access to Eberron Campaign Setting as well? If offers some nice stuff to bards (Song of the Heart as a bonus feat instead of a new bardic music, for instance).
CookieFiend 02-03-07, 09:09 PM	Definantly not combat. Mostly song but some music too. You don't think its better to go off into a PrC? I thought FochLucan Lyrist would be good, but it would be hard to develop.
Caelic 02-03-07, 09:17 PM	Yes, it's better to go into a PrC; his point was that your fellow party members are very poorly designed. Wiz 10/Cleric 10 is about the worst choice you can possibly make. Is the group at level 20? If so, starting a FocLyr will work out just fine; I can show you a lovely build.
Adrian_Crane 02-03-07, 09:21 PM	FocLyr will also make your Wiz 10/Clr 10 character cry...he took the worst possible approach to dual casting that's humanly possible. You, by contrast, will be really good at it.
Edea 02-03-07, 10:08 PM	God, even Mystic Theurge would have done that guy some good ;_;. Or at the very least Dweomerkeeper (Complete Divine version), if he was that hellbent on taking Clr and Wiz simultaneously.
jameswilliamogle 02-03-07, 10:13 PM	Heck, he doesn't even need to use PrC's to outshine the party w/ that book selection.
LogicNinja 02-03-07, 10:27 PM	Seriously, at this point, you SHOULDN'T optimize. Your party ranges from "mediocre" (barbarian) to "terrible" (samurai) to "pretty much as bad as you can make a character without actively trying" (wiz/cleric). Just play a bard. Maybe take some archery feats, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. Cast your spells and do your thing. You don't want to put a highly effective character in a party like that, it'll just cause lots of problems.
LogicNinja 02-03-07, 10:36 PM	God, even Mystic Theurge would have done that guy some good ;_;. Or at the very least Dweomerkeeper (Complete Divine version), if he was that hellbent on taking Clr and Wiz simultaneously. I bet he's doing it because it's GOOD ROLEPLAYING and fits his ANGSTY BACKSTORY ABOUT HIS DUAL HERITAGE. And then when he gets home, he cries. While masturbating.
Edea 02-03-07, 10:44 PM	Lol. But really, MT is core. It's kinda hard to imagine a Clr/Wiz not taking at least that unless there was another PrC giving the character something more. In fact, most (class 1)10/(class 2)10 aren't great ideas if both of those are base classes. Complete Scoundrel changed the rules for a few classes (particularly spellthief, scout, and swashbuckler), but those are exceptions. On-topic: definitely play a regular Bard. These guys are in it deep.
GaffeR 02-03-07, 10:52 PM	I bet he's doing it because it's GOOD ROLEPLAYING and fits his ANGSTY BACKSTORY ABOUT HIS DUAL HERITAGE. And then when he gets home, he cries. While masturbating. :rofl: I'd sig that if I thought I wouldn't get in trouble for it.
Blade2718 02-03-07, 11:43 PM	:rofl: I'd sig that if I thought I wouldn't get in trouble for it.You can always partially quote him. Maybe he had to be a dual-caster because there are no PrC options open?
Edea 02-03-07, 11:46 PM	In that case, he should've been a Cleric 20. Even a Cleric 20 of Pelor with the Healing and Good domains is a better healer/fighter/problem solver/anything than that horrendous piece.
smage 02-04-07, 12:00 AM	Cleric 20 with the Magic Domain works better than Clr10/Wiz10 if the goal is 10th lvl Wizard casting. Slap on the Knowledge Domain (worship Boccob or Vecna) and you even have the Knowledge skills covered (Travel has more of the Wizard spells that Cleric lacks, though; would require not worshipping a god). And that's as "Core" as it gets. ;) EDIT: If you really want to mess with the party: Go Spellthief (CAr) 1 / Bard 19 and take Master Spellthief (CS) as one of your feats. Laugh maniacally at the party wiz/clr as you cast stolen 9th level spells (both arcane AND divine) while wearing light armor. If you really want to make him cry: do this while wearing heavy armor (after taking Battlecaster 2x). P.S. - Don't really do that. :P
Wizu 02-04-07, 01:20 AM	I bet he's doing it because it's GOOD ROLEPLAYING and fits his ANGSTY BACKSTORY ABOUT HIS DUAL HERITAGE. And then when he gets home, he cries. While masturbating. ! Sigged on another forum!
kadeity 02-04-07, 01:23 AM	EDIT: If you really want to mess with the party: Go Spellthief (CAr) 1 / Bard 19 and take Master Spellthief (CS) as one of your feats. Laugh maniacally at the party wiz/clr as you cast stolen 9th level spells (both arcane AND divine) while wearing light armor. If you really want to make him cry: do this while wearing heavy armor (after taking Battlecaster 2x). P.S. - Don't really do that. :P the clr10/wiz10 has no 9th level spells. Just alot of 1st-5th. so yeah...he could steal his spells all day long. with that many low level crap spells hes making epic look bad, and deserves to be robbed. personally im telling myself the OP must have Mis-typed and meant to say he was a half-cleric half-wizard, meaning Mystic Theurge or something equallty likely. I refuse to accept that anyone whos playing two of the three strongest classes in core would murdicate them so brutally with sub-optimal choices. As for playing a bard in core...its rough. Bard20 is best choice if you dont want to make the rest of the party cry. Since you have a Samurai, im gonna assume its not just core however, and that you can use the compete books at least. The spelltheif 1/bard 19 was a good suggestion. really bards using any of the multiclass feats are fun to play. Personally im a fan of the variant from complete mage that lets you give 20% arcane spellfailure to enemy casters for 3 rounds with one use of bardic music. Im currently running a bard-build i call "BardZilla" (as a pun on the phrase CoDzilla), and the progression ive planned for him is Harbinger Variant Spellbreaker Variant DivineBard1, Cleric19. See my primary stats are Cha and Wis.I took the feat "Divine inspiration" from Dragon magazine #333 p85, which lets my bard and cleric levels stack for determining bardic music. Because of this, and being a divine bard, i can cast in heavy armor, as well as do bardic music...and get mad bonuses from my 18 Wis. If you wanted to do this build and have a low cha, you could, but itll cost you another feat. The feat "Hymnist" gives you Wis on Perform, in addition to your Cha... so as long as you have a 10 cha you can do it fine. The "Harbinger" variant is from Dragon Magazine issue #337, and it lets you replace your previous party buffing bardic music abilities with new enemy nerfing bardic music abilities. This is particularly good when used with the "Blapshemous Utterances" feats from issue #336, which do all sorts of nasty things to the enemy, using bardic music. If you wanted to be an Undead themed Clerical-Bard, you can do the brd1,clr19 like i did, use divine inspiraiton to make clr stack with bard, then take Requiem, which will let your bardic music affect undead. if you wanna be an undead slayer, take the harbinger variant, and pick a good deity so you can turn undead and cast head. If you wanna be a necromacner, then keep regular bardic music so you can buff your undead with it (thanks to Requiem) and pick an evil deity, boster undead and inflict spells. You can also play a Fear themed bard, and just not take cleric at all. Youll take the Harbinger Variant,The Blasphemous Utterances feats and be sure to get the feat "Haunting Melody" which i think is in the Eberron Campaign setting. Now you can stack those fear effects and panic your foes. You can also take another route, and be an animal themed bard...though this takes several feats. A few are in the Eberron campaign setting. Youll wanna be at least a 1st level druid..and i think Foluchian lyrist is likely the best prc class for it...though ive never played an animal themed bard myself...ive just noticed the feats. Anyway, those are my ideas.
smage 02-04-07, 02:35 AM	the clr10/wiz10 has no 9th level spells. Just alot of 1st-5th. so yeah...he could steal his spells all day long. with that many low level crap spells hes making epic look bad, and deserves to be robbed. Oh, you mistake the depths of my depravity. I didn't mean for him to steal his party member's spells (that's mean, but it's not "spit in his face" mean). I meant steal the spells of his opponents and show his party member how a single level and a single feat allowed him to surpass said member's spell casting ability in almost every way. Difficulty: must be able to deliver a sneak attack and opponent must have spellcasting ability; need to perfect a convincing sneer, too (a snicker might be easier, but a sneer really gets under their skin). I hope no one is taking me seriously on this...if the guy is having fun as a Wiz10/Clr10, that's all that matters.
PsychoTherapist 02-04-07, 03:46 AM	Here are some basic bard builds that might fit into your party without overbalancing things Rogue type Bard 7/ Rogue 3/ Arcane Trickster 10 Archer Type Bard 8 / Arcane Archer 2/ Eldritch Knight 10 Gish Bard 7/ Rogue 2/ Druid 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 10 All of the above can be made more powerful by using sublime chord 2 at level 10 and then 8 levels of the final PrC i.e. Bard 7/ Rogue 3/ Sublime Chord 2/ Arcane Trickster 8
Sang-Drax 02-04-07, 07:20 AM	I bet he's doing it because it's GOOD ROLEPLAYING and fits his ANGSTY BACKSTORY ABOUT HIS DUAL HERITAGE. And then when he gets home, he cries. While masturbating. :rofl: Dude, really... your posts are the funniest evah! CookieFiend: Like Caelic said, it all depends on the level the campaign is starting at. Fochlucan Lyrist is a pain in the ass to play at low levels (even though it should be equal in power with the rest of the party). If you don't play to wade into melee, you should definitely consider Sublime Chord from Complete Arcane. It boosts your spellcasting tenfold in lieu of your combat capabilities - though it's rather easy to make an efficient Gish build with full or nigh-full spellcasting, too.
LogicNinja 02-04-07, 07:36 AM	:rofl: I'd sig that if I thought I wouldn't get in trouble for it. I don't see why you would! Masturbation isn't a prohibited word! ! Sigged on another forum! Sweet. :D What forum, if I may ask? :rofl: Dude, really... your posts are the funniest evah! Aw, you guys. You're making me blush. ...I do try.
Wizu 02-04-07, 08:41 AM	Oh, its my local gaming groups forum. Funny tho, in there masturbation is a prohibited word, and were running the damn thing in finnish! Odd world this is, odd world. =P Adds it to his Wizards sig and waits the world of trouble that'll ensue.
Votan 02-04-07, 09:17 AM	I think, in general, that Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 is a pretty solid build that is going to be better than Bard 20. In such circumstances (a Samurai -- really?) this should be fine in a high level game.