Best build for a fighter/mage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best build for a fighter/mage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Drag0nUL
09-21-06, 03:13 AM I am about to start a new campaign(Eberron) adn I was looking for a few efficient character builds. I enojy playng caster/melee hybirds a lot(I usually go for a cleric with divine matamagic and persistant spell but this time the cleric is already taken) and I would like to try an arcane caster/fighter. However I am undecided between a few different builds:
1.duskblade
2.fighter 1/wizard 5/knight phantom
3.fighter 2/wizard 4/spellsword 1/eldritch knight

I would like to hear some opinions on this buid or your ideas for a fighter/mage efficient build
PhoenixInferno
09-21-06, 03:19 AM http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=150451
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307309
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=606371
Cold Napalm
09-21-06, 03:20 AM Not very powerful but I like
fighter 1/mage 5/ek 1/spellsword 5/ek to end.

CL 16 (20 with practiced) and bab 17. Spell channel really is too much fun :) .
igotsmeakabob!!
09-21-06, 04:20 AM If Knight Phantom is an option and fits your character, don't even consider the Eldritch Knight. Its better in every way mechanically.
PhoenixInferno
09-21-06, 04:23 AM If Knight Phantom is an option and fits your character, don't even consider the Eldritch Knight. Its better in every way mechanically.Except for the net gain of 2 feats by using Eldritch Knight (one less prereq and one bonus feat from EK). They're functionally equivalent, but the decision to use one over the other is a flavor vs "I need more f'in feats" choice.
Drag0nUL
09-21-06, 05:31 AM One other question: Is it worth going into spellsword more than 1 lvl? I mean does the spell channel compensate for the loss of caster levels?
FruitOfTheShroom
09-21-06, 07:02 AM If Knight Phantom is an option and fits your character, don't even consider the Eldritch Knight. Its better in every way mechanically.

It really isn't. You lose 2 feats, and just about every Gish I have seen has been REALLY tight for feats, because they go two completely different directions with feats due to the nature of the build. There is nothing on the Knight Phantom's class abilities that makes up for the loss of 2 feats. Sure, in a vacuum the knight phantom is a stronger class, but looking at most GIsh builds, they are reliant on their feat combos, and only get so many to work with.

Another poster has already pointed out, however, the other 3 gish threads that exist. OP I suggest you check them out.
Necromas
09-21-06, 07:34 AM I think the best fighter mage is a gestalt Sorc/Duskblade :P

But just plain duskblade works out okay, even if it ends up being a lot more fighter then mage, but you'll wanna ask your DM for a ruling on extra spell cause you'll prolly wanna use it to expand the small spell list.
Drag0nUL
09-21-06, 07:42 AM Thak you all for your input. I am now considering a fighter 2/wizard 4/spellsword 1/dragonslayer 1/Vassal fo Bahamut 1/Eldritch knight 10. What do you think. Or the vassal level isn't worth taking just for the platinum armor ann should i take 1 more level into a spellcasting class?
ornsjach
09-21-06, 02:53 PM warlock/fighter with hidous blow Eldritch blast for a more marsal flavor
or for a mor magical blend Warmage/soulKnife or Warmage/pisonic fighter
Cold Napalm
09-21-06, 03:32 PM Well the phantom knight is ebberon specific I believe...and it does have d8 hp so it's a good choice if you have the feats to spare.

The spell channel while not worth 9th level spells is none the less very VERY fun. Think of it this way...you know those personal spells? Well they aren't personal anymore :) . Oh and solid fog based spells that just screws over one target is fun too.

more CL is usually better.
ninjarabbit
09-21-06, 04:38 PM duskblade2/paladin4/suelarcahaman4/spellsword5/dragonslayer5 or hexblade5/fighter1/SA4/spellsword5/dragonslayer5
Endarire
09-21-06, 07:45 PM Human Wizard1-5 for Collegiate Wizard and Militia/Eldritch Knight2/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/EK3-10/Ruathar3. This nets you L19 casting (20 with Practiced Caster) and 17 BAB, but for the first 1/3 of your nonepic career, you're primarily a wizard. Collegiate Wizard is from Complete Arcane 181 and Militia Player's Guide to Faerun 41.

-EE
Taeldrin Laesrash
09-21-06, 08:53 PM Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 3/ Spellsword 1/ Eldritch Knight 10. +17 BAB and 18 CL. The PrCs are entered through the Otherworldly feat, with the extra benefit of being able to alter self into Outsiders. I'd also suggest taking Arcane Strike, as you've got more high-level spell slots than most gish.
FriendlyFrog
09-22-06, 04:54 AM Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 3/ Spellsword 1/ Eldritch Knight 10. +17 BAB and 18 CL. The PrCs are entered through the Otherworldly feat, with the extra benefit of being able to alter self into Outsiders. I'd also suggest taking Arcane Strike, as you've got more high-level spell slots than most gish.
I like Otherwordly for qualifying too, but have some comments on the rest of the build. First, the build doesn't qualify for Spellsword, Otherwordly doesn't give armor proficiencies. Second, it would be better to take more of Knight phantom than Eldritch knight, KP has d8 HD and some class abilities, which is a lot better than that d6 and no class abilities at all that EK has.

I'd make the build Wizard 6/Knight phantom 10/Eldritch knight 4 myself.
Drag0nUL
09-22-06, 08:28 AM Don't want to sound too ignorant( although in this case I am) but what exactly is the otherworldly feat?(where is it form at what does it do)
RicercarA6
09-22-06, 09:31 AM One other question: Is it worth going into spellsword more than 1 lvl?
IMO, no.

I am now considering a fighter 2/wizard 4/spellsword 1/dragonslayer 1/Vassal fo Bahamut 1/Eldritch knight 10. What do you think. Or the vassal level isn't worth taking just for the platinum armor ann should i take 1 more level into a spellcasting class?
Go for more caster levels as they will make you a stronger warrior than fighter levels will :) I recommend fighter 1/wizard 6/spellsword 1/dragonslayer 1/Eldritch knight 10 over your own suggestion. You'll lose a fighter feat and gain a wizard feat and a caster level.

Also, Dragonslayer 1 might not be worth the two feat cost. Depends on what else you're planning. Nice saves though.

Note: those are only lvl 19 builds.
Taeldrin Laesrash
09-22-06, 09:37 AM I like Otherwordly for qualifying too, but have some comments on the rest of the build. First, the build doesn't qualify for Spellsword, Otherwordly doesn't give armor proficiencies. Second, it would be better to take more of Knight phantom than Eldritch knight, KP has d8 HD and some class abilities, which is a lot better than that d6 and no class abilities at all that EK has.

I'd make the build Wizard 6/Knight phantom 10/Eldritch knight 4 myself.

Darn, thanks for pointing that out. I chose to stick with Eldritch Knight due to the 9/10 CL progression, and only the first-level abilities of Knight Phantom really stood out to me. More like Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 4/ Eldritch Knight 10 then.
Piraatje
09-22-06, 11:53 AM Your first question is simple: to use EK of KP. While KP costs 2 feats, it delivers more hp and more abilities (some of which are extremely nice).

If you want to go with EK, a level in SpellSword will help you with your arcane spell failure. Your basic build would be Fighter 1 Wizard 8 Spellsword 1 EK 10 for a Bab 16 CL 18 build.

If you want to go with KP, you can already cast in light armour without trouble (medium if you're willing to spend a feat ;) ). Your basic build will now be Fighter 2 Wizard 8 KP 10 for a Bab 16 CL 17 build with more hp and more special abilities, at the cost of a single caster level.

In terms of feats, don't be fooled. While EK generates a feat and KP costs one, Spellsword also costs one and the second fighterlevel for Bab 16 also generates a feat. In the end, the trade-off is whether you want a more abilities & hp rich character or a more caster-like character.

Personally, i fancy the effective single-PrC builds ;)
Cold Napalm
09-23-06, 12:08 AM Umm isn't otherworldly a FR regional feat and knight phantom an ebberon based PrC? Which leads to how do you get both unless your in a homebrew?
GaffeR
09-23-06, 12:22 AM Umm isn't otherworldly a FR regional feat and knight phantom an ebberon based PrC? Which leads to how do you get both unless your in a homebrew?
A lenient DM.
Cold Napalm
09-23-06, 04:14 AM A lenient DM.

I thought we ignore DM fiats on this board! :mad:
Kuroi Kenshi
09-23-06, 02:33 PM Chameleons make great gish as they can be a triple threat, are better to play from low to mid levels, and are overall more resilient. However they only get up to level 6 spells.

Duskblades are powerful but very one dimensional.

Traditional gish go like this: hard to play 1-6, and get better from there on; or not so bad to play from 1-6, but will never be as powerful as the former type of gish late game.

Divine gish like druid, cleric/bone knight, or even straight cleric builds are great 1-20 but divine magic has less the "gish" flavor.

So really what makes the best gish build depends on what level you start at and what level you will realistically finish at in your campaign.
GaffeR
09-23-06, 03:25 PM I thought we ignore DM fiats on this board! :mad:
Not really, we just pretend to. :P
Sang-Drax
09-23-06, 11:02 PM A few advices:

1. Knight Phantom is great. d8 HD over d6 means a feat already - think of it as the equivalent of Improved Toughness. Besides, if you're after more caster levels, wiz5 nets you Still Spell for free - so, if you plan to go wiz5 anyway, a Knight Phantom build would have as many feats as an EK one. In that case, EK would only be a better choice if you had in mind a very specific and long feat chain.

2. Knight Phantom grants the ability to cast spells in light armor at 1st level. Pick Battlecaster (CA) and there you go, you can cast spells in Mithril Full Plate at 0% ASF. If you lack the money, keep memorizing Gold Dragonmail (wiz3, Champions of Valor) until you have it. That alone makes KP ever more worth it than EK, and you don't have to wait for level after level of Spellsword just to wear some armor.

3. Dragonslayer is a no-no. I don't know why the hell people keep suggesting builds with both fighter and dragonslayer. Either one or another. Dragonslayer's usefulness is limited to granting martial weapons and heavy armor proficiency as a prerequisite for spellsword - if you're picking fighter already, why bother? Besides, given the harsh requirements (BAB +5, dodge, iron will), it means you're dumping precious feats - not to mention the fact that you would have to start as a wiz10 to actually use it for something; or going battlesorcerer, which sucks *and* already gives the ability to cast spells in light armor. That said, Dragonslayer is an utter waste of feats. Picking one level of fighter not only grants you the necessary proficiencies and feats, but will also keep you alive at lower levels and will give you at least a slight Gish 'feel' which you wouldn't have, were you beginning with straight wizard (and burning your feats to qualify for DS).

4. Channel Spell is quite nice. If you consider that Spellsword 5 grants 3 caster levels, nice saves, channel spell, and a bonus feat, it's something to consider. I myself would rather go Fig1/Wiz6/Spellsword 3/Knight Phantom 10; or just 1 level of spellsword and 2 of some other wizardly PrC. Either way, I'd go through all 18 levels before making that decision ;)

5. If you're beginning straight up from lower levels, maybe Fig2/Wiz4/Spellsword 1 is a better start. Remember, though, that wiz5 grants a feat that you'd need anyway to qualify for KP... Fig2/Wiz4 is still a great start if you can retrain that fighter2 for wiz5 (as per PHB II retraining rules).

Cheers
Cold Napalm
09-23-06, 11:44 PM As a side note...

wizard 5 with militia/ek 3/dragon slayer 1/spellsword 5/ek to end gets you CL 17 and BAB 17...which means spell channel 9th level spells...oh the fun that can be :) . Hey lets shapechange the fighter! Not sure if the EK can be swapped for KP in this case since I have no idea what the KP reqs are...but that is how you use dragon slayer :).
Skeeve
09-24-06, 12:56 AM Darn, thanks for pointing that out. I chose to stick with Eldritch Knight due to the 9/10 CL progression, and only the first-level abilities of Knight Phantom really stood out to me. More like Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 4/ Eldritch Knight 10 then.

As long as you're taking the prereqs for Knight Phantom anyway, why not take it all the way to 10? I mean, Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 10/Eldritch Knight 4 has a few more HP on average, the three other class powers of Knight Phantom, and is literally losing nothing.
Kuroi Kenshi
09-24-06, 03:30 AM ...Besides, if you're after more caster levels, wiz5 nets you Still Spell for free - so, if you plan to go wiz5 anyway, a Knight Phantom build would have as many feats as an EK one.While I agree with just about everything else in your post, I disagree with the logic used here. That level 5 wizard feat isn't "free". It could have just as well gone towards a metamagic feat that won't be made obsolete within a level or two. Or maybe you use still spell after taking KP levels...But I'd rather have extend, empower, or something else that will be useful throughout the character's career and be useful in more situations than still spell. Anyway, unless you plan to use still spell alot, builds that favor EK over KP will still come out a feat ahead (factoring in improved toughness to close the HD gap), whether you take wizard past level 4 or not.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drag0nUL 09-21-06, 03:13 AM	I am about to start a new campaign(Eberron) adn I was looking for a few efficient character builds. I enojy playng caster/melee hybirds a lot(I usually go for a cleric with divine matamagic and persistant spell but this time the cleric is already taken) and I would like to try an arcane caster/fighter. However I am undecided between a few different builds: 1.duskblade 2.fighter 1/wizard 5/knight phantom 3.fighter 2/wizard 4/spellsword 1/eldritch knight I would like to hear some opinions on this buid or your ideas for a fighter/mage efficient build
PhoenixInferno 09-21-06, 03:19 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=150451 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307309 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=606371
Cold Napalm 09-21-06, 03:20 AM	Not very powerful but I like fighter 1/mage 5/ek 1/spellsword 5/ek to end. CL 16 (20 with practiced) and bab 17. Spell channel really is too much fun :) .
igotsmeakabob!! 09-21-06, 04:20 AM	If Knight Phantom is an option and fits your character, don't even consider the Eldritch Knight. Its better in every way mechanically.
PhoenixInferno 09-21-06, 04:23 AM	If Knight Phantom is an option and fits your character, don't even consider the Eldritch Knight. Its better in every way mechanically.Except for the net gain of 2 feats by using Eldritch Knight (one less prereq and one bonus feat from EK). They're functionally equivalent, but the decision to use one over the other is a flavor vs "I need more f'in feats" choice.
Drag0nUL 09-21-06, 05:31 AM	One other question: Is it worth going into spellsword more than 1 lvl? I mean does the spell channel compensate for the loss of caster levels?
FruitOfTheShroom 09-21-06, 07:02 AM	If Knight Phantom is an option and fits your character, don't even consider the Eldritch Knight. Its better in every way mechanically. It really isn't. You lose 2 feats, and just about every Gish I have seen has been REALLY tight for feats, because they go two completely different directions with feats due to the nature of the build. There is nothing on the Knight Phantom's class abilities that makes up for the loss of 2 feats. Sure, in a vacuum the knight phantom is a stronger class, but looking at most GIsh builds, they are reliant on their feat combos, and only get so many to work with. Another poster has already pointed out, however, the other 3 gish threads that exist. OP I suggest you check them out.
Necromas 09-21-06, 07:34 AM	I think the best fighter mage is a gestalt Sorc/Duskblade :P But just plain duskblade works out okay, even if it ends up being a lot more fighter then mage, but you'll wanna ask your DM for a ruling on extra spell cause you'll prolly wanna use it to expand the small spell list.
Drag0nUL 09-21-06, 07:42 AM	Thak you all for your input. I am now considering a fighter 2/wizard 4/spellsword 1/dragonslayer 1/Vassal fo Bahamut 1/Eldritch knight 10. What do you think. Or the vassal level isn't worth taking just for the platinum armor ann should i take 1 more level into a spellcasting class?
ornsjach 09-21-06, 02:53 PM	warlock/fighter with hidous blow Eldritch blast for a more marsal flavor or for a mor magical blend Warmage/soulKnife or Warmage/pisonic fighter
Cold Napalm 09-21-06, 03:32 PM	Well the phantom knight is ebberon specific I believe...and it does have d8 hp so it's a good choice if you have the feats to spare. The spell channel while not worth 9th level spells is none the less very VERY fun. Think of it this way...you know those personal spells? Well they aren't personal anymore :) . Oh and solid fog based spells that just screws over one target is fun too. more CL is usually better.
ninjarabbit 09-21-06, 04:38 PM	duskblade2/paladin4/suelarcahaman4/spellsword5/dragonslayer5 or hexblade5/fighter1/SA4/spellsword5/dragonslayer5
Endarire 09-21-06, 07:45 PM	Human Wizard1-5 for Collegiate Wizard and Militia/Eldritch Knight2/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/EK3-10/Ruathar3. This nets you L19 casting (20 with Practiced Caster) and 17 BAB, but for the first 1/3 of your nonepic career, you're primarily a wizard. Collegiate Wizard is from Complete Arcane 181 and Militia Player's Guide to Faerun 41. -EE
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-21-06, 08:53 PM	Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 3/ Spellsword 1/ Eldritch Knight 10. +17 BAB and 18 CL. The PrCs are entered through the Otherworldly feat, with the extra benefit of being able to alter self into Outsiders. I'd also suggest taking Arcane Strike, as you've got more high-level spell slots than most gish.
FriendlyFrog 09-22-06, 04:54 AM	Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 3/ Spellsword 1/ Eldritch Knight 10. +17 BAB and 18 CL. The PrCs are entered through the Otherworldly feat, with the extra benefit of being able to alter self into Outsiders. I'd also suggest taking Arcane Strike, as you've got more high-level spell slots than most gish. I like Otherwordly for qualifying too, but have some comments on the rest of the build. First, the build doesn't qualify for Spellsword, Otherwordly doesn't give armor proficiencies. Second, it would be better to take more of Knight phantom than Eldritch knight, KP has d8 HD and some class abilities, which is a lot better than that d6 and no class abilities at all that EK has. I'd make the build Wizard 6/Knight phantom 10/Eldritch knight 4 myself.
Drag0nUL 09-22-06, 08:28 AM	Don't want to sound too ignorant( although in this case I am) but what exactly is the otherworldly feat?(where is it form at what does it do)
RicercarA6 09-22-06, 09:31 AM	One other question: Is it worth going into spellsword more than 1 lvl? IMO, no. I am now considering a fighter 2/wizard 4/spellsword 1/dragonslayer 1/Vassal fo Bahamut 1/Eldritch knight 10. What do you think. Or the vassal level isn't worth taking just for the platinum armor ann should i take 1 more level into a spellcasting class? Go for more caster levels as they will make you a stronger warrior than fighter levels will :) I recommend fighter 1/wizard 6/spellsword 1/dragonslayer 1/Eldritch knight 10 over your own suggestion. You'll lose a fighter feat and gain a wizard feat and a caster level. Also, Dragonslayer 1 might not be worth the two feat cost. Depends on what else you're planning. Nice saves though. Note: those are only lvl 19 builds.
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-22-06, 09:37 AM	I like Otherwordly for qualifying too, but have some comments on the rest of the build. First, the build doesn't qualify for Spellsword, Otherwordly doesn't give armor proficiencies. Second, it would be better to take more of Knight phantom than Eldritch knight, KP has d8 HD and some class abilities, which is a lot better than that d6 and no class abilities at all that EK has. I'd make the build Wizard 6/Knight phantom 10/Eldritch knight 4 myself. Darn, thanks for pointing that out. I chose to stick with Eldritch Knight due to the 9/10 CL progression, and only the first-level abilities of Knight Phantom really stood out to me. More like Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 4/ Eldritch Knight 10 then.
Piraatje 09-22-06, 11:53 AM	Your first question is simple: to use EK of KP. While KP costs 2 feats, it delivers more hp and more abilities (some of which are extremely nice). If you want to go with EK, a level in SpellSword will help you with your arcane spell failure. Your basic build would be Fighter 1 Wizard 8 Spellsword 1 EK 10 for a Bab 16 CL 18 build. If you want to go with KP, you can already cast in light armour without trouble (medium if you're willing to spend a feat ;) ). Your basic build will now be Fighter 2 Wizard 8 KP 10 for a Bab 16 CL 17 build with more hp and more special abilities, at the cost of a single caster level. In terms of feats, don't be fooled. While EK generates a feat and KP costs one, Spellsword also costs one and the second fighterlevel for Bab 16 also generates a feat. In the end, the trade-off is whether you want a more abilities & hp rich character or a more caster-like character. Personally, i fancy the effective single-PrC builds ;)
Cold Napalm 09-23-06, 12:08 AM	Umm isn't otherworldly a FR regional feat and knight phantom an ebberon based PrC? Which leads to how do you get both unless your in a homebrew?
GaffeR 09-23-06, 12:22 AM	Umm isn't otherworldly a FR regional feat and knight phantom an ebberon based PrC? Which leads to how do you get both unless your in a homebrew? A lenient DM.
Cold Napalm 09-23-06, 04:14 AM	A lenient DM. I thought we ignore DM fiats on this board! :mad:
Kuroi Kenshi 09-23-06, 02:33 PM	Chameleons make great gish as they can be a triple threat, are better to play from low to mid levels, and are overall more resilient. However they only get up to level 6 spells. Duskblades are powerful but very one dimensional. Traditional gish go like this: hard to play 1-6, and get better from there on; or not so bad to play from 1-6, but will never be as powerful as the former type of gish late game. Divine gish like druid, cleric/bone knight, or even straight cleric builds are great 1-20 but divine magic has less the "gish" flavor. So really what makes the best gish build depends on what level you start at and what level you will realistically finish at in your campaign.
GaffeR 09-23-06, 03:25 PM	I thought we ignore DM fiats on this board! :mad: Not really, we just pretend to. :P
Sang-Drax 09-23-06, 11:02 PM	A few advices: 1. Knight Phantom is great. d8 HD over d6 means a feat already - think of it as the equivalent of Improved Toughness. Besides, if you're after more caster levels, wiz5 nets you Still Spell for free - so, if you plan to go wiz5 anyway, a Knight Phantom build would have as many feats as an EK one. In that case, EK would only be a better choice if you had in mind a very specific and long feat chain. 2. Knight Phantom grants the ability to cast spells in light armor at 1st level. Pick Battlecaster (CA) and there you go, you can cast spells in Mithril Full Plate at 0% ASF. If you lack the money, keep memorizing Gold Dragonmail (wiz3, Champions of Valor) until you have it. That alone makes KP ever more worth it than EK, and you don't have to wait for level after level of Spellsword just to wear some armor. 3. Dragonslayer is a no-no. I don't know why the hell people keep suggesting builds with both fighter and dragonslayer. Either one or another. Dragonslayer's usefulness is limited to granting martial weapons and heavy armor proficiency as a prerequisite for spellsword - if you're picking fighter already, why bother? Besides, given the harsh requirements (BAB +5, dodge, iron will), it means you're dumping precious feats - not to mention the fact that you would have to start as a wiz10 to actually use it for something; or going battlesorcerer, which sucks and already gives the ability to cast spells in light armor. That said, Dragonslayer is an utter waste of feats. Picking one level of fighter not only grants you the necessary proficiencies and feats, but will also keep you alive at lower levels and will give you at least a slight Gish 'feel' which you wouldn't have, were you beginning with straight wizard (and burning your feats to qualify for DS). 4. Channel Spell is quite nice. If you consider that Spellsword 5 grants 3 caster levels, nice saves, channel spell, and a bonus feat, it's something to consider. I myself would rather go Fig1/Wiz6/Spellsword 3/Knight Phantom 10; or just 1 level of spellsword and 2 of some other wizardly PrC. Either way, I'd go through all 18 levels before making that decision ;) 5. If you're beginning straight up from lower levels, maybe Fig2/Wiz4/Spellsword 1 is a better start. Remember, though, that wiz5 grants a feat that you'd need anyway to qualify for KP... Fig2/Wiz4 is still a great start if you can retrain that fighter2 for wiz5 (as per PHB II retraining rules). Cheers
Cold Napalm 09-23-06, 11:44 PM	As a side note... wizard 5 with militia/ek 3/dragon slayer 1/spellsword 5/ek to end gets you CL 17 and BAB 17...which means spell channel 9th level spells...oh the fun that can be :) . Hey lets shapechange the fighter! Not sure if the EK can be swapped for KP in this case since I have no idea what the KP reqs are...but that is how you use dragon slayer :).
Skeeve 09-24-06, 12:56 AM	Darn, thanks for pointing that out. I chose to stick with Eldritch Knight due to the 9/10 CL progression, and only the first-level abilities of Knight Phantom really stood out to me. More like Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 4/ Eldritch Knight 10 then. As long as you're taking the prereqs for Knight Phantom anyway, why not take it all the way to 10? I mean, Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 10/Eldritch Knight 4 has a few more HP on average, the three other class powers of Knight Phantom, and is literally losing nothing.
Kuroi Kenshi 09-24-06, 03:30 AM	...Besides, if you're after more caster levels, wiz5 nets you Still Spell for free - so, if you plan to go wiz5 anyway, a Knight Phantom build would have as many feats as an EK one.While I agree with just about everything else in your post, I disagree with the logic used here. That level 5 wizard feat isn't "free". It could have just as well gone towards a metamagic feat that won't be made obsolete within a level or two. Or maybe you use still spell after taking KP levels...But I'd rather have extend, empower, or something else that will be useful throughout the character's career and be useful in more situations than still spell. Anyway, unless you plan to use still spell alot, builds that favor EK over KP will still come out a feat ahead (factoring in improved toughness to close the HD gap), whether you take wizard past level 4 or not.