Best build for a spy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best build for a spy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nick_Nameless
02-19-04, 01:41 PM I am in a game that is at about 10th level, and am about to lose my character over some silliness created at the table.

I am considering bringing in a spy type of character. I have never really played this type of PC. Right now I only have access to the core books, but could get access to anything referrenced.

How would you build the ultimate spy?
ksbsnowowl
02-19-04, 01:49 PM Well, there is the Spymaster PrC in Song and Silence. It builds on cover identities and gets good skill points per level (can't remember if it's 6+int or 8+int). Also there is the Guild Thief from the Forgotten Realms CS; that might be good for a spy - haven't looked at it in a while.

Basically, you want to start rogue and max out your skill ranks in the stealth and several of the social skills (bluff, read lips, disguise). Probably go human; that way he won't stand out in most social settings, and he'll get the human bonus feat and bonus skills.
Kaalan
02-19-04, 01:50 PM Depends on how you want to approach it...You could sneak in shadows and watch people. Shadowdancer would work well here.

Or if you want to actually talk to people, convince them you are on their side, be a double agent etc. Go Spymaster(Song and Silence)

Either way, rogue(possible mixed with some fighter) should be your core.

There might be more options you could take.
PhaedrusXY
02-19-04, 01:53 PM The Ninja Spy from Oriental Adventures makes an excellent spy. I have a character that started out at 21st ECL as a rokugan ninja6/monk2/ninja spy8/teflemmar shadowlord4. I made him to join a game that had already progressed into epic levels before I got invited to it. He is very fun to play, and great at spying and sneaking. The build, along with a history of the character, can be found HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117102&highlight=ninja).
Ranthanas
02-19-04, 01:59 PM Core bard (3.5). (The 3.0 bard isn't quite as good)

Skills include hide, move silently, listen, disguise, bluff, sense motive, gather information and diplomacy- most of the ones a spy needs (the only obvious one missing is spot) and you also pay half price for foreign languages. Also, Bardic Lore and the Fascinate/Suggestion functions of Bardic Music are great for a spy.

On top of this, you have pretty good magic to e.g. perfect your disguise (alter self), prevent yourself being heard (sculpt sound), prevent yourself being seen (invisibility), prevent anyone disbelieving you (glibness) and many, many more functions.

What more do you want for a spy? (Other than sneak attack dice)
Nick_Nameless
02-19-04, 02:10 PM Originally posted by Ranthanas
Core bard (3.5). (The 3.0 bard isn't quite as good)

Skills include hide, move silently, listen, disguise, bluff, sense motive, gather information and diplomacy- most of the ones a spy needs (the only obvious one missing is spot) and you also pay half price for foreign languages. Also, Bardic Lore and the Fascinate/Suggestion functions of Bardic Music are great for a spy.

On top of this, you have pretty good magic to e.g. perfect your disguise (alter self), prevent yourself being heard (sculpt sound), prevent yourself being seen (invisibility), prevent anyone disbelieving you (glibness) and many, many more functions.

What more do you want for a spy? (Other than sneak attack dice)

Bard is an interesting suggestion I had not thought of.

My goal is to be gathering information on the party I am with (not hard) and reporting it back to the people they are working against (a bit harder) without getting caught.

I want to be able to follow party members around without their knowledge, and I want to be able to get into places that I normally wouldn't have access to.

There are very game specific reasons for this path, so please keep the flames to a minimum.

a Bard/Shadowdancer would be interesting. I'll need to do a bit of reading on invisible blase and mind spy as well.

Hmm...Ideas are formulating.
cdmonish
02-19-04, 02:16 PM Sounds like you might be a Doppelganger for hire. If you can stomach the LA (+4 I think), this would be ideal for adventuring with an unsuspecting group. Mind Spy complements a doppelganger pretty well (I think they even use a Doppelganger in their character example). With a host of humanoid forms at your disposal, you should be able to get into a variety of venues that standard races might not.
PhaedrusXY
02-19-04, 02:20 PM Depending on what level you're talking about playing at, Rary's Telepathic Bond can be made permanent and has no range limit once it's in place. So you could have this put on yourself and your contact before your "spying mission" starts, and therefore would be able to "report in" with just a thought. This only requires a 9th level wizard, so it shouldn't be that hard to get if you're going to be playing medium to higher levels.
Sisyfos
02-19-04, 03:20 PM I wonder why none suggested the classic:

Rogue3/wizard5/arcane_trickster2

You get plenty of skillpoints, 3d6 SA and 4th level spells. Some nice spells for spies:

1. Detect thoughts
2. Scrying
3. Tongues
4. Knock
5. Detect magic
6. Alter self
7. Polymorph
8. Invisibility
9. Blink (you can go through walls with this one).
10. Suggestion
11. Charm person
12. Gaseous form

And so on. I do not think that many other approaches are actually better at being spies.
Snow Savant
02-19-04, 03:27 PM 3 angles to go here:

1. SKILLS = Rogue10 or Rogue6/Spymaster4 or Rogue8/Ranger2. Spell capability still exists here with a maxed-out UMD. Although the Bard is usually better at this. For the Ranger route, chose the legal MotW variant called the "Urban Ranger".

2. SPELLS & SKILLS = Bard10 or Bard7/Rogue3 or Rogue3/Wizard5/ArcTrickster2. The latter 2 are to be completed as Arcane Trickster builds. The Bard Trickster does even better with Bard7/Assassin3, due to the high INT needs of a Spy. And the Poison Use ability is also strong.

3. SPELLS = Wizard5/HarperMage5. The Wizard's spells totally trump the Bard's spells in regards to quantity and espionage applicability. Don't underestimate the strong skill suite of the Harper Mage. With a high INT, you'll get a bunch of key Rogue skills.

***

Regardless of your choice, you need a high INT (spell ranks) and CHA (social interaction and key social skils). With a good tertiary stat in DEX.

Hope this helps. I don't have much time to write today - busy here!

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
catharz
02-19-04, 03:43 PM A Bard with the Blackmoorian rhymes feat is amazing. It makes even one level of Bard useful for Bardic knowledge.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nick_Nameless 02-19-04, 01:41 PM	I am in a game that is at about 10th level, and am about to lose my character over some silliness created at the table. I am considering bringing in a spy type of character. I have never really played this type of PC. Right now I only have access to the core books, but could get access to anything referrenced. How would you build the ultimate spy?
ksbsnowowl 02-19-04, 01:49 PM	Well, there is the Spymaster PrC in Song and Silence. It builds on cover identities and gets good skill points per level (can't remember if it's 6+int or 8+int). Also there is the Guild Thief from the Forgotten Realms CS; that might be good for a spy - haven't looked at it in a while. Basically, you want to start rogue and max out your skill ranks in the stealth and several of the social skills (bluff, read lips, disguise). Probably go human; that way he won't stand out in most social settings, and he'll get the human bonus feat and bonus skills.
Kaalan 02-19-04, 01:50 PM	Depends on how you want to approach it...You could sneak in shadows and watch people. Shadowdancer would work well here. Or if you want to actually talk to people, convince them you are on their side, be a double agent etc. Go Spymaster(Song and Silence) Either way, rogue(possible mixed with some fighter) should be your core. There might be more options you could take.
PhaedrusXY 02-19-04, 01:53 PM	The Ninja Spy from Oriental Adventures makes an excellent spy. I have a character that started out at 21st ECL as a rokugan ninja6/monk2/ninja spy8/teflemmar shadowlord4. I made him to join a game that had already progressed into epic levels before I got invited to it. He is very fun to play, and great at spying and sneaking. The build, along with a history of the character, can be found HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117102&highlight=ninja).
Ranthanas 02-19-04, 01:59 PM	Core bard (3.5). (The 3.0 bard isn't quite as good) Skills include hide, move silently, listen, disguise, bluff, sense motive, gather information and diplomacy- most of the ones a spy needs (the only obvious one missing is spot) and you also pay half price for foreign languages. Also, Bardic Lore and the Fascinate/Suggestion functions of Bardic Music are great for a spy. On top of this, you have pretty good magic to e.g. perfect your disguise (alter self), prevent yourself being heard (sculpt sound), prevent yourself being seen (invisibility), prevent anyone disbelieving you (glibness) and many, many more functions. What more do you want for a spy? (Other than sneak attack dice)
Nick_Nameless 02-19-04, 02:10 PM	Originally posted by Ranthanas Core bard (3.5). (The 3.0 bard isn't quite as good) Skills include hide, move silently, listen, disguise, bluff, sense motive, gather information and diplomacy- most of the ones a spy needs (the only obvious one missing is spot) and you also pay half price for foreign languages. Also, Bardic Lore and the Fascinate/Suggestion functions of Bardic Music are great for a spy. On top of this, you have pretty good magic to e.g. perfect your disguise (alter self), prevent yourself being heard (sculpt sound), prevent yourself being seen (invisibility), prevent anyone disbelieving you (glibness) and many, many more functions. What more do you want for a spy? (Other than sneak attack dice) Bard is an interesting suggestion I had not thought of. My goal is to be gathering information on the party I am with (not hard) and reporting it back to the people they are working against (a bit harder) without getting caught. I want to be able to follow party members around without their knowledge, and I want to be able to get into places that I normally wouldn't have access to. There are very game specific reasons for this path, so please keep the flames to a minimum. a Bard/Shadowdancer would be interesting. I'll need to do a bit of reading on invisible blase and mind spy as well. Hmm...Ideas are formulating.
cdmonish 02-19-04, 02:16 PM	Sounds like you might be a Doppelganger for hire. If you can stomach the LA (+4 I think), this would be ideal for adventuring with an unsuspecting group. Mind Spy complements a doppelganger pretty well (I think they even use a Doppelganger in their character example). With a host of humanoid forms at your disposal, you should be able to get into a variety of venues that standard races might not.
PhaedrusXY 02-19-04, 02:20 PM	Depending on what level you're talking about playing at, Rary's Telepathic Bond can be made permanent and has no range limit once it's in place. So you could have this put on yourself and your contact before your "spying mission" starts, and therefore would be able to "report in" with just a thought. This only requires a 9th level wizard, so it shouldn't be that hard to get if you're going to be playing medium to higher levels.
Sisyfos 02-19-04, 03:20 PM	I wonder why none suggested the classic: Rogue3/wizard5/arcane_trickster2 You get plenty of skillpoints, 3d6 SA and 4th level spells. Some nice spells for spies: 1. Detect thoughts 2. Scrying 3. Tongues 4. Knock 5. Detect magic 6. Alter self 7. Polymorph 8. Invisibility 9. Blink (you can go through walls with this one). 10. Suggestion 11. Charm person 12. Gaseous form And so on. I do not think that many other approaches are actually better at being spies.
Snow Savant 02-19-04, 03:27 PM	3 angles to go here: 1. SKILLS = Rogue10 or Rogue6/Spymaster4 or Rogue8/Ranger2. Spell capability still exists here with a maxed-out UMD. Although the Bard is usually better at this. For the Ranger route, chose the legal MotW variant called the "Urban Ranger". 2. SPELLS & SKILLS = Bard10 or Bard7/Rogue3 or Rogue3/Wizard5/ArcTrickster2. The latter 2 are to be completed as Arcane Trickster builds. The Bard Trickster does even better with Bard7/Assassin3, due to the high INT needs of a Spy. And the Poison Use ability is also strong. 3. SPELLS = Wizard5/HarperMage5. The Wizard's spells totally trump the Bard's spells in regards to quantity and espionage applicability. Don't underestimate the strong skill suite of the Harper Mage. With a high INT, you'll get a bunch of key Rogue skills. *** Regardless of your choice, you need a high INT (spell ranks) and CHA (social interaction and key social skils). With a good tertiary stat in DEX. Hope this helps. I don't have much time to write today - busy here! XO, Snow :cloud9:
catharz 02-19-04, 03:43 PM	A Bard with the Blackmoorian rhymes feat is amazing. It makes even one level of Bard useful for Bardic knowledge.