Best Builds for Team Tactics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Builds for Team Tactics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Claggart
05-25-05, 10:18 AM We are about to begin a new campaign and I was looking for some help. The game is based on the idea that 7 people come together under the tutelage of a powerful wizard. After several years of study (3 levels to be exact), the characters are sent out as agents of the wizard. The wizard is a Chosen of Mystra and has limitless resources which will be at our disposal (money should never be a problem). The DM is encouraging the creation of magical items and development of new spells. The game could easily reach epic levels.

Several of the players are “army of 1” type players. They prefer to be self reliant and typically only play to their own strengths with no regard to the abilities of the others. For instance, in our last game I was playing a rogue-ish character with a pretty good SA, but no one really ever made an effort to help me capitalize on it. Our cleric only buffed himself, etc… I recently read an old thread about team tactics and how to get the most out of a combination of characters. For the new game 3 (probably 4) of us are hoping to really play off each others strengths and protect each others weaknesses.

Here’s what we have:
The stand alone players are:
-Fighter 2/Wizard 3 (human)—working toward Green Star Adept
-Druid 2/Wizard 3 (???)—showing interest in Geomancer
-Wizard 5 (human)—I heard him mention Geometer, but there’s no telling.

The rest of us:
-Rogue 2/Wizard 3 (elf)—can’t decide between archer build and rapid movement build. He’s also interested in shape changing. Archers are very feat intensive, but have a good upside when effective.
-Barbarian 2/Wizard 3 (dwarf)—I’m pushing her towards Stonelord, but she’s open to suggestions.
-Paladin 2/Wizard 3 (halfling)—I’m not sure what he wants. *See below.
-Cleric 2(Mystra)/Wizard 3 (human)—my character.

*I’m torn. Part of the reason I’m asking for help is to help me decide what I’m going to do. I really like the Cheater of Mystra (I’ll do whatever he lets me get by with, but I’m not going to break the game intentionally) and the Theurge of the Seven Fold Veil. I’m thinking Theurge/Veil is a good way for the Paladin to go, though, so I may leave it for him. The biggest draw of the Cheater (for me anyway) is the conversion from Sp to Su. There are some really great spells that allow SR but no Save. At the very least I can target the weakness of my victim (Fort save for casters, Will save for fighters).

So what’s the best direction for the four of us to go? None of us wants to be a 1 Trick Pony and we all want to enjoy our characters, but we would like to function well as a unit. Please include key feats for each when you can. The four of us are the ones who own the fewest books in our group.

Books allowed & restrictions:
-The party as a whole will be LG/NG/LN. The Barb may be CG, but probably not CN.
-No monks, psionics, gestalt, or racial quirkiness.
-The DM is likely to allow feats and spells from pretty much anywhere. As a group we own the Core books, BoED, BoVD, CWar, CDiv, CArc, MoF, and FRCS. We will be playing in a game shop so other books (depending on inventory) will be available for reference.

Thanks a ton!

Claggart
solbergb
05-25-05, 05:11 PM Hard to respond. The 3 levels of wizard kind of mess up all of the characters, except the wizard5 of course.

You guys badly need complete adventurer, for the various level 1-2 swift action spells that really help a multiclassed character.

On the plus side, you'll all suck equally, except for the pure wizard. Some comments:

Green star adept....is an adequate tank, if weird.
Druid/Wiz...arcane hierophant is 100% better than geomancer
Wiz5 - if he doesn't give up caster levels to PRC's he'll outshine you all

rogue/wiz - arcane archer would be ok, but fighter2 would have been a better way to start than rogue2. This char is feat starved and will have to take two levels of fighter to make arcane archer anytime soon. It might make a decent order of the bow initiate/sniper type, especially if you can get CV included.

Barb2/Wiz3/stonelord...isn't a prequil to stonelord that makes nearly as much sense as say, barb2/fighter2/anything1. Stonelord basically provides more spell-like abilities and full bab instead of the feats that, say, a fighter would get. Wizardry is pretty incompatable with raging, so this person is going to have a rough road ahead.

Pal2/Wiz3 - serious MAD here, he needs all 6 attributes. If he sticks out paladin long enough to get a mount and only PRC's to stuff that improves the mount (halfling outrider or cavalier perhaps) he'll get some nice share-spells stuff with his mount. Pal2/Sorc3 would have been better (or Pal4/sorc1) but you guys don't have that option.

cl2/wiz3 - theurge is as good as it is gonna get for the next 11 levels. Or you could go with the cheater of mystra build but without going over the deep end and choosing xp-burn spells as your spell-like ability..that's what breaks the build. It is otherwise a decently strong build, especially in a group of mutts like this. You guys need a real cleric, the druid/wiz/whatever isn't gonna be up to the job of revitalization alone.
Tenken
05-25-05, 05:31 PM I think the wiz3/rog2 DEFINITELY HAS to go Daggerspell Shaper. It doesn't get any better than that. Arcane Strike + free Quickened Lightning Bolt + 2 free touch spell attacks with daggers, are all a must. Mix it up with the Arcane Trickster for additional SA damage. Daggerspell Shaper is from Complete Adventurer I believe.
catharz
05-25-05, 05:42 PM When it comes to spellcasting class synergy, you can pretty much base it all on spell selection.

Solbergb made some good suggestions which I'd like to expand on. Here are (IMO) the most optimal routes for character advancement based on the various multiclasses (without too much complexity):

-Fighter 2/Wizard 3 (human): Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1-3/Eldritch knight 10.
-Druid 2/Wizard 3 (???): Druid 4/Wizard 3/Arcane Heirophant 10 OR Druid 3/Wiz 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Heirophant 10.
-Wizard 5 (human): Any full caster.

The rest of us:
-Rogue 2/Wizard 3 (elf): Some combination of Daggerspell, Magelord [LEoF], and Arcane trickster. If he really wants to go archer then two levels of Arcane archer and some Eldritch knight.
-Barbarian 2/Wizard 3 (dwarf)— Either Barb 2/Wiz 4/Runesmith [RoS] 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch knight 10 (requires Armor proficiency--Heavy), or Barb 2/Wiz 3/Fighter 1/Runesmith 2/etc.
-Paladin 2/Wizard 3 (halfling)—Paladin 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch knight 9/Sacred exorcist 4.
-Cleric 2(Mystra)/Wizard 3 (human)— Dweomercheater is pretty nice, what can I say?

Anyway, you're going to end up with a frackload of Warrior/Mages. The dwarf will probably be the most successful tank (what with casting in full plate and a tower shield). Have the dwarf grab Shielded casting [RoS], and she won't be provoking AoOs from spellcasting either.
Then lay down a few Fogs, maybe some illusions, and have someone summon a bunch of critters to Flank and Aid another. And start cutting things up. A good mix of reach weapons could help too. Make sure some of you have Blindsight, Darkvision, and whatnot.

Oh ya, and check out all of the buff spells out there. You can wrap yourselves in the 1 hour/level ones, and the cast the short duration ones after you lay down the environmental effects.

There are quite a few Fireshield-like spells, and when you start stacking them on one character they can get pretty amazing. I've seen a character dealing something like Level*Acid + Level*Fire + Level*lightning + Level*Sonic damage to an attacker, and follow it up with a grapple doing the same. Naystay.
And remember that you can use Energy Sub on Fireshield and whatnot, and then stack them. If you're in the right situation (i.e., being able to get every enemy to attack one PC), you could lay down some extreme damage that way.
Claggart
05-26-05, 09:11 AM Thanks. It is kind of a mess with all the restrictions he put on character creation. He even gave us our stats (16,16,15,15,14,14). We get to distribute them however we want, but it seems like we are all going to be very similar.

Is the Cheater of Mystra worth the build if you're not going to cheese out the wishes and such? I think so, but I'm not sure. I like the ability to bypass SR with the conversion of Sp to Su. Can that be obtained any other way? Its just hard for me to give up on a Mystic Theurge build. The possibility of maxing out Arc & Div casting seems pretty strong.

The game will be fast paced, high magic, and high power. The DM told me that we will all be Chosen of Mystra somewhere around lvl15.

Claggart
Kothardarastrix
05-26-05, 09:27 AM With seven characters I'd suggest these.

Fighter(Melee Combat, duh.)
Cleric(Healer)
Paladin(Melee Combat or Healing Sub)
Sorcerer(Focused on mainly Evocation and damage spells) or Psion if you do Psionics are diff variant
Wizard(Conjurer)
Rogue(Traps and doors)
Ranger(Ranged Specialist)
catharz
05-26-05, 10:32 AM Is the Cheater of Mystra worth the build if you're not going to cheese out the wishes and such? I think so, but I'm not sure. I like the ability to bypass SR with the conversion of Sp to Su. Can that be obtained any other way? Its just hard for me to give up on a Mystic Theurge build. The possibility of maxing out Arc & Div casting seems pretty strong.

It is a tough call. I wouldn't play your current build (Cleric 2/Wizard 3) in a normal campaign. The cheater uses a feat to gain arcane spellcasting, which puts your character three levels behind. Of course, most effective Mystic theurgeons get in with a 3/1 setup, which also limits caster level loss. With all of the arcane spellcasting in the party, the extra progression might not be as useful as it is in some other parties.

Anyway, if you're going to use a little Dweomerkeeper cheese sauce, go for it. If you aren't going to use the no save/no SR supernatural spells, just go with MT.

You could also try using some sort of nonstandard multicaster progression, like Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Dweomercheater 3/Bard 1/Sublime chord 1/Mystic theurge 8 or 9, finishing up with DC 4.
Karrg
05-26-05, 09:55 PM Seeing as you said your about to start the campaign if your not set on the classes you mentioned the Nightsong Enforcer and Infiltrator both get team based abilities.
Claggart
05-27-05, 09:01 AM I wish we could change some of the classes around but they are pretty much set in stone. For whatever reason the DM thinks this is going to be really cool. He did, however, tell me I could go straight cleric5 if I wanted to. At first I was so enamored with the Mystic Theurge that I had a hard time looking at any thing else. Now I'm finding a lot of other options.

Does Cleric 5 set me up for better things?

Claggart
Blade2718
05-27-05, 09:31 AM Well, the full power of the Dweomercheater can now be unleashed if you're a Clr5. Just use Magical Training (a regoinal feat from PGtF) to get arcane casting.
solbergb
05-27-05, 12:51 PM Actually just a straight 1-20 cleric is going to be stronger than anything but the wizard, who might be equal if he's lucky.

For that group I'd take magic domain and knowledge domain just to fit in :) (my skill list would then be very much like a wiz and I could use all the consumables the rest fo them will churn out)

But that's roleplay.
Khazra Reborn
05-27-05, 01:16 PM Actually just a straight 1-20 cleric is going to be stronger than anything but the wizard, who might be equal if he's lucky.
be fair, dagggerspell mages are amazing...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Claggart 05-25-05, 10:18 AM	We are about to begin a new campaign and I was looking for some help. The game is based on the idea that 7 people come together under the tutelage of a powerful wizard. After several years of study (3 levels to be exact), the characters are sent out as agents of the wizard. The wizard is a Chosen of Mystra and has limitless resources which will be at our disposal (money should never be a problem). The DM is encouraging the creation of magical items and development of new spells. The game could easily reach epic levels. Several of the players are “army of 1” type players. They prefer to be self reliant and typically only play to their own strengths with no regard to the abilities of the others. For instance, in our last game I was playing a rogue-ish character with a pretty good SA, but no one really ever made an effort to help me capitalize on it. Our cleric only buffed himself, etc… I recently read an old thread about team tactics and how to get the most out of a combination of characters. For the new game 3 (probably 4) of us are hoping to really play off each others strengths and protect each others weaknesses. Here’s what we have: The stand alone players are: -Fighter 2/Wizard 3 (human)—working toward Green Star Adept -Druid 2/Wizard 3 (???)—showing interest in Geomancer -Wizard 5 (human)—I heard him mention Geometer, but there’s no telling. The rest of us: -Rogue 2/Wizard 3 (elf)—can’t decide between archer build and rapid movement build. He’s also interested in shape changing. Archers are very feat intensive, but have a good upside when effective. -Barbarian 2/Wizard 3 (dwarf)—I’m pushing her towards Stonelord, but she’s open to suggestions. -Paladin 2/Wizard 3 (halfling)—I’m not sure what he wants. See below. -Cleric 2(Mystra)/Wizard 3 (human)—my character. I’m torn. Part of the reason I’m asking for help is to help me decide what I’m going to do. I really like the Cheater of Mystra (I’ll do whatever he lets me get by with, but I’m not going to break the game intentionally) and the Theurge of the Seven Fold Veil. I’m thinking Theurge/Veil is a good way for the Paladin to go, though, so I may leave it for him. The biggest draw of the Cheater (for me anyway) is the conversion from Sp to Su. There are some really great spells that allow SR but no Save. At the very least I can target the weakness of my victim (Fort save for casters, Will save for fighters). So what’s the best direction for the four of us to go? None of us wants to be a 1 Trick Pony and we all want to enjoy our characters, but we would like to function well as a unit. Please include key feats for each when you can. The four of us are the ones who own the fewest books in our group. Books allowed & restrictions: -The party as a whole will be LG/NG/LN. The Barb may be CG, but probably not CN. -No monks, psionics, gestalt, or racial quirkiness. -The DM is likely to allow feats and spells from pretty much anywhere. As a group we own the Core books, BoED, BoVD, CWar, CDiv, CArc, MoF, and FRCS. We will be playing in a game shop so other books (depending on inventory) will be available for reference. Thanks a ton! Claggart
solbergb 05-25-05, 05:11 PM	Hard to respond. The 3 levels of wizard kind of mess up all of the characters, except the wizard5 of course. You guys badly need complete adventurer, for the various level 1-2 swift action spells that really help a multiclassed character. On the plus side, you'll all suck equally, except for the pure wizard. Some comments: Green star adept....is an adequate tank, if weird. Druid/Wiz...arcane hierophant is 100% better than geomancer Wiz5 - if he doesn't give up caster levels to PRC's he'll outshine you all rogue/wiz - arcane archer would be ok, but fighter2 would have been a better way to start than rogue2. This char is feat starved and will have to take two levels of fighter to make arcane archer anytime soon. It might make a decent order of the bow initiate/sniper type, especially if you can get CV included. Barb2/Wiz3/stonelord...isn't a prequil to stonelord that makes nearly as much sense as say, barb2/fighter2/anything1. Stonelord basically provides more spell-like abilities and full bab instead of the feats that, say, a fighter would get. Wizardry is pretty incompatable with raging, so this person is going to have a rough road ahead. Pal2/Wiz3 - serious MAD here, he needs all 6 attributes. If he sticks out paladin long enough to get a mount and only PRC's to stuff that improves the mount (halfling outrider or cavalier perhaps) he'll get some nice share-spells stuff with his mount. Pal2/Sorc3 would have been better (or Pal4/sorc1) but you guys don't have that option. cl2/wiz3 - theurge is as good as it is gonna get for the next 11 levels. Or you could go with the cheater of mystra build but without going over the deep end and choosing xp-burn spells as your spell-like ability..that's what breaks the build. It is otherwise a decently strong build, especially in a group of mutts like this. You guys need a real cleric, the druid/wiz/whatever isn't gonna be up to the job of revitalization alone.
Tenken 05-25-05, 05:31 PM	I think the wiz3/rog2 DEFINITELY HAS to go Daggerspell Shaper. It doesn't get any better than that. Arcane Strike + free Quickened Lightning Bolt + 2 free touch spell attacks with daggers, are all a must. Mix it up with the Arcane Trickster for additional SA damage. Daggerspell Shaper is from Complete Adventurer I believe.
catharz 05-25-05, 05:42 PM	When it comes to spellcasting class synergy, you can pretty much base it all on spell selection. Solbergb made some good suggestions which I'd like to expand on. Here are (IMO) the most optimal routes for character advancement based on the various multiclasses (without too much complexity): -Fighter 2/Wizard 3 (human): Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1-3/Eldritch knight 10. -Druid 2/Wizard 3 (???): Druid 4/Wizard 3/Arcane Heirophant 10 OR Druid 3/Wiz 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Heirophant 10. -Wizard 5 (human): Any full caster. The rest of us: -Rogue 2/Wizard 3 (elf): Some combination of Daggerspell, Magelord [LEoF], and Arcane trickster. If he really wants to go archer then two levels of Arcane archer and some Eldritch knight. -Barbarian 2/Wizard 3 (dwarf)— Either Barb 2/Wiz 4/Runesmith [RoS] 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch knight 10 (requires Armor proficiency--Heavy), or Barb 2/Wiz 3/Fighter 1/Runesmith 2/etc. -Paladin 2/Wizard 3 (halfling)—Paladin 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch knight 9/Sacred exorcist 4. -Cleric 2(Mystra)/Wizard 3 (human)— Dweomercheater is pretty nice, what can I say? Anyway, you're going to end up with a frackload of Warrior/Mages. The dwarf will probably be the most successful tank (what with casting in full plate and a tower shield). Have the dwarf grab Shielded casting [RoS], and she won't be provoking AoOs from spellcasting either. Then lay down a few Fogs, maybe some illusions, and have someone summon a bunch of critters to Flank and Aid another. And start cutting things up. A good mix of reach weapons could help too. Make sure some of you have Blindsight, Darkvision, and whatnot. Oh ya, and check out all of the buff spells out there. You can wrap yourselves in the 1 hour/level ones, and the cast the short duration ones after you lay down the environmental effects. There are quite a few Fireshield-like spells, and when you start stacking them on one character they can get pretty amazing. I've seen a character dealing something like LevelAcid + LevelFire + Levellightning + LevelSonic damage to an attacker, and follow it up with a grapple doing the same. Naystay. And remember that you can use Energy Sub on Fireshield and whatnot, and then stack them. If you're in the right situation (i.e., being able to get every enemy to attack one PC), you could lay down some extreme damage that way.
Claggart 05-26-05, 09:11 AM	Thanks. It is kind of a mess with all the restrictions he put on character creation. He even gave us our stats (16,16,15,15,14,14). We get to distribute them however we want, but it seems like we are all going to be very similar. Is the Cheater of Mystra worth the build if you're not going to cheese out the wishes and such? I think so, but I'm not sure. I like the ability to bypass SR with the conversion of Sp to Su. Can that be obtained any other way? Its just hard for me to give up on a Mystic Theurge build. The possibility of maxing out Arc & Div casting seems pretty strong. The game will be fast paced, high magic, and high power. The DM told me that we will all be Chosen of Mystra somewhere around lvl15. Claggart
Kothardarastrix 05-26-05, 09:27 AM	With seven characters I'd suggest these. Fighter(Melee Combat, duh.) Cleric(Healer) Paladin(Melee Combat or Healing Sub) Sorcerer(Focused on mainly Evocation and damage spells) or Psion if you do Psionics are diff variant Wizard(Conjurer) Rogue(Traps and doors) Ranger(Ranged Specialist)
catharz 05-26-05, 10:32 AM	Is the Cheater of Mystra worth the build if you're not going to cheese out the wishes and such? I think so, but I'm not sure. I like the ability to bypass SR with the conversion of Sp to Su. Can that be obtained any other way? Its just hard for me to give up on a Mystic Theurge build. The possibility of maxing out Arc & Div casting seems pretty strong. It is a tough call. I wouldn't play your current build (Cleric 2/Wizard 3) in a normal campaign. The cheater uses a feat to gain arcane spellcasting, which puts your character three levels behind. Of course, most effective Mystic theurgeons get in with a 3/1 setup, which also limits caster level loss. With all of the arcane spellcasting in the party, the extra progression might not be as useful as it is in some other parties. Anyway, if you're going to use a little Dweomerkeeper cheese sauce, go for it. If you aren't going to use the no save/no SR supernatural spells, just go with MT. You could also try using some sort of nonstandard multicaster progression, like Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Dweomercheater 3/Bard 1/Sublime chord 1/Mystic theurge 8 or 9, finishing up with DC 4.
Karrg 05-26-05, 09:55 PM	Seeing as you said your about to start the campaign if your not set on the classes you mentioned the Nightsong Enforcer and Infiltrator both get team based abilities.
Claggart 05-27-05, 09:01 AM	I wish we could change some of the classes around but they are pretty much set in stone. For whatever reason the DM thinks this is going to be really cool. He did, however, tell me I could go straight cleric5 if I wanted to. At first I was so enamored with the Mystic Theurge that I had a hard time looking at any thing else. Now I'm finding a lot of other options. Does Cleric 5 set me up for better things? Claggart
Blade2718 05-27-05, 09:31 AM	Well, the full power of the Dweomercheater can now be unleashed if you're a Clr5. Just use Magical Training (a regoinal feat from PGtF) to get arcane casting.
solbergb 05-27-05, 12:51 PM	Actually just a straight 1-20 cleric is going to be stronger than anything but the wizard, who might be equal if he's lucky. For that group I'd take magic domain and knowledge domain just to fit in :) (my skill list would then be very much like a wiz and I could use all the consumables the rest fo them will churn out) But that's roleplay.
Khazra Reborn 05-27-05, 01:16 PM	Actually just a straight 1-20 cleric is going to be stronger than anything but the wizard, who might be equal if he's lucky. be fair, dagggerspell mages are amazing...