Best Builds for Whisper Gnome Race? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Builds for Whisper Gnome Race? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ElfHunter
12-04-05, 05:33 AM It has been quite a long time since I've played a race of small size (I always hated the movement penalties).

However, the Whisper Gnome from Races of Stone is a race that I think I can do!

What I'm looking for are optimized builds for this race. I was thinking of doing the ranger/rogue/PrC thing, but that seems a little uninspired. I would also like to incorporate both of the Whisper Gnomes' racial feats into any suggested builds.

Here are the books I'm allowed to use in my campaign: 3.5 only, Core, Complete, Races, Forgotten Realms and XPH.

This race seems to be geared for stealth, so I would definitely do something rogue like here, but I'm open to ANY suggestions.

Thanks in advance!
SoulGamit
12-04-05, 11:39 AM You either want something stealthing (notcm, rogue, ninja, scout) or you want the shadowcraft mage.
ElfHunter
12-05-05, 05:51 AM I think I'm going to try the Rogue3/Ftr2/Asn8/TSL6.

Any good suggestions for skills/feats?

Feats will be at a major premium because of the Whisper Gnome race (as opposed to human). I was thinking of attempting the spring attack tree, along with the dodge/titan fighting feat for good AC.

Suggestions?
Sang-Drax
12-05-05, 07:58 PM I think I'm going to try the Rogue3/Ftr2/Asn8/TSL6.

Any good suggestions for skills/feats?

Feats will be at a major premium because of the Whisper Gnome race (as opposed to human). I was thinking of attempting the spring attack tree, along with the dodge/titan fighting feat for good AC.

Suggestions?

Since you'll have to take the Spring Attack feat to qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord anyway, you don't have much of an option in there. And, since you'll have to pick dodge in order to accomplish that, titan fighting is a really good deal.

When you PM'd me, you also mentioned Extra Silence and Silencing Attack. I really love these feats, specially flavorwise, but I would say that your build is too feat-intensive as it is. There are quite a few key feats like Craven and Quicken Spell-like Ability (Dimension Door) that could never be left out! Of course, the latter feat can only be taken if you take the Shadow-Walker template. The 2 weapon fighting tree is also a must for any Shadowlord, as it makes the most out of your dimension door + full attack ability. I guess those would be a lot more valuable than Silencing Attack.
Inkling
12-05-05, 08:22 PM I wonder if a Warlock would make a great infiltrator/assassin (lower-case assassin) build for a whisper gnome. I've always wanted to see a comparison of Rogue vs Warlock when it comes to infiltrating power. Warlocks have detect magic at will (great for detecting magical traps), baleful utterance which is nearly as good as having infinite knock spells, spider climb at will for those hard-to-reach spots, entropic warding which is infinite pass without trace AND 20% miss chance. At mid-levels it's even nastier with dimension door (with an illusion-chaser) at will, fly at will, and/or invisibility at will. I always thought that the only thing missing from a warlock is silence and the whisper gnome fills that gap perfectly.
Iaimeki
12-05-05, 11:48 PM Whisper gnomes don't get the racial bonus to illusion save DCs and silence is aggravating for casters, so I've never thought of them as particularly suited to the shadow illusions gnome.

The racial silence ability makes them great caster-killers, especially at low levels, but even at higher levels silence can be inconvenient for a lot of casters. I'm a big fan of warlock (CA)/rogue multiclasses (straight warlock is just not strong enough to compete at high levels, but the at-will spell-like abilities and some of the other class abilities are beneficial for a warlock-splashing rogue). Spellthief (CV) is another good choice, though the Cha penalty is a little aggravating; however, the only thing important that depends on it is spells, so as long as you can manage 14, you should be fine. Spells, even minor spells, help a lot in killing casters, so assassin and Telflammar shadowlord are also strong choices; if that's what you're inclined to, Elfhunter, that's a good combination.

Psionics is another option: it combines very well with the racial silence ability because manifesting doesn't require verbal components. Psychic rogue (from the Mind's Eye section on this website), shadowmind (CV), cognition thief (PGtF), and psychic assassin (also Mind's Eye) all work well.

For the assassin/Telflammar shadowlord, max out Dex and Int, make sure to take Weapon Finesse and the TWF tree as much as you can, get Silencing Strike, and take Extra Silence if you can.
Sang-Drax
12-06-05, 05:10 AM Whisper gnomes don't get the racial bonus to illusion save DCs and silence is aggravating for casters, so I've never thought of them as particularly suited to the shadow illusions gnome.

As a side note, Silencing Strike denies the victim's saving throw.
Iaimeki
12-06-05, 03:07 PM As a side note, Silencing Strike denies the victim's saving throw.

Indeed, which is why it's so great for caster-slaying.

Odd rules note: though the warlock's description implies that the warlock's spell-like abilities have somatic components, it's nowhere explicitly mentioned for general invocations that they have verbal components. Since spell-like abilities have no components under normal circumstances, one could argue that the warlock's invocations don't either. (I suspect the designers intended that they would, though.)
Sang-Drax
12-06-05, 04:15 PM Indeed, which is why it's so great for caster-slaying.

:doh: Yeah, I misunderstood what you wanted to say. I hadn't read the shadowcraft mage part.

Since spell-like abilities have no components under normal circumstances, one could argue that the warlock's invocations don't either. (I suspect the designers intended that they would, though.)

Not only one could argue, I don't think there are any statements that would even imply otherwise. It's explicit when it says that it's like a spell-like ability that incurs in ASF (and, thus, somatic components could be required).
ElfHunter
12-06-05, 04:17 PM Here's a build for a character that I rolled up:

Race: Whisper Gnome (of course)

Str16, Dex17, Con16, Int17, Wis14, Cha12

Build Pattern Rog5/Asn5/TSL6/??4 (maybe go further in the Asn/Rog Levels)

I MIGHT get the Shadow-walker template for free (without LA). If not, then one of those other levels will go to that.

Here is my proposed feat pattern:

1st-Dodge, 3rd-Mobility, 6th-Wpn Finesse, 9th-Spring Atk, 12th-Titan Fighting, 15th-Quicken spell like ability, 18th-??

Maxed out skills list: Hide, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Tumble, Decipher Script, Climb, UMD, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand.

I think I might need to take a couple levels of fighter to get a couple of bonus feats.

Not sure where to go from here...I might have to scrap this whole idea and start over with something more focused :(
Iaimeki
12-06-05, 08:48 PM Not only one could argue, I don't think there are any statements that would even imply otherwise. It's explicit when it says that it's like a spell-like ability that incurs in ASF (and, thus, somatic components could be required).

Well, baleful utterance arguably has a verbal component (though you could argue that it should just have the sonic descriptor and not a verbal component per se).

My own feeling is that the designers intended invocations to "work like" spells, so have verbal and somatic components. (Thus the arcane spell failure in armor.) However, there's no textual basis for this, so by strict RAW, they probably have no components.

Here's a build for a character that I rolled up:

Race: Whisper Gnome (of course)

Str16, Dex17, Con16, Int17, Wis14, Cha12

Build Pattern Rog5/Asn5/TSL6/??4 (maybe go further in the Asn/Rog Levels)

I MIGHT get the Shadow-walker template for free (without LA). If not, then one of those other levels will go to that.

Here is my proposed feat pattern:

1st-Dodge, 3rd-Mobility, 6th-Wpn Finesse, 9th-Spring Atk, 12th-Titan Fighting, 15th-Quicken spell like ability, 18th-??

Maxed out skills list: Hide, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Tumble, Decipher Script, Climb, UMD, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand.

I think I might need to take a couple levels of fighter to get a couple of bonus feats.

Not sure where to go from here...I might have to scrap this whole idea and start over with something more focused :(

Are those abilities before or after racial adjustments? If after, swap Str and Dex (for 20 Dex and 14 Str): with Weapon Finesse and sneak attack, you don't need that much Str, and Dex boosts most of the skills you care about as well as your AC, initiative (important for a rogue), and Reflex saves.

I think Titan Fighting is underwhelming, to say the least. It depends on fighting creatures of the giant type, and even then it's only +3 AC against _one_ opponent. There are many better feat options.

My build suggestion, if you need more feats:

Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 9/Telflammar Shadowlord 6

Take shadowlord as soon as you meet the requirements, and take your first fighter level at to pick up Weapon Finessse ASAP.

Don't bother maxing Open Lock, Decipher Script, or Climb. All of those skills have fixed DCs, one of them is completely surpassed by a spell (Climb), the other is mostly superceded by a spell (Open Lock). You don't usually need Sleight of Hand to be maxed, either. This brings you down to 6 skills you need to max, which should be fine, especially if you drop your first stat boost into Int to even it out.
Tasmar
12-06-05, 08:55 PM I think Titan Fighting is underwhelming, to say the least. It depends on fighting creatures of the giant type, and even then it's only +3 AC against _one_ opponent. There are many better feat options.

IIRC Titan Fighting applies that +4 to any opponent that is a size larger (or more) than you that you assign your dodge feat bonus against. Against giants the bonus applies twice. Yes, +8 against a single giant. Along with the huge difference between sizes that already applies to AC.
ElfHunter
12-07-05, 06:59 AM I agree with Tasimar on the Titan Fighting feat. I think it's worth consideration. I also like the discussion on skills. With the aforementioned skill structure, I can use the extra points for other things.

Thanks for all the help. I will post a new build soon.
Inkling
12-07-05, 08:10 AM IIRC Titan Fighting applies that +4 to any opponent that is a size larger (or more) than you that you assign your dodge feat bonus against. Against giants the bonus applies twice. Yes, +8 against a single giant. Along with the huge difference between sizes that already applies to AC.Are you sure that's how Titan Fighting works? I thought it just extended your dodge bonus to other creatures besides giants, not give you a whole extra dodge bonus to all Large creatures that stacks with your original bonus vs giants.
ElfHunter
12-08-05, 04:14 AM After much thought, I have decided to go with this starting 15 level build for my Whisper Gnome:

Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Guild Thief 3/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Telflammar Shadowlord 5/Spellsword 1

First and foremost, I would like to thank Sang-Drax for all of his help (and the above build suggestion).

I think I focused too much on stacking the death attack of the assassin and the TSL. Instead, this build provides decent SA, and some much needed help with my dreaded Will save. It also provides decent skill synergy (with the exception of the fighter classes. Finally, the Spellsword PrC will let me cast some spells in armor.

1. rog1 dodge
2. fig1 weapon finesse*
3. fig2 blind-fighting, mobility*
4. rog2
5. rog3
6. gth1 spring attack
7. gth2 two-weapon fighting*
8. nse1
9. tsl1 titan fighting

If I'm able to get the shadow-walker template for free, this will be my feat selection (thanks again to Sang-Drax for this). A TSL needs TWF to be fully effective, and while I wish I could fit in the racial feats (extra silence and silencing strike), I just didn't have the room. I'm also debating the ninth level feat titan fighting. A few posts on this topic have brought this into question. Perhaps a different feat might be in order. Any suggestions would be welcome.

I will be starting the character at level 6 or 7, so just about everything would be in place. What magic items should I take? How about gear? Any thoughts?
ElfHunter
12-08-05, 04:46 AM Are you sure that's how Titan Fighting works? I thought it just extended your dodge bonus to other creatures besides giants, not give you a whole extra dodge bonus to all Large creatures that stacks with your original bonus vs giants.

From the RoS book:

When you designate a creature at least one size category larger than you as the target of your dodge feat, you apply your racial dodge bonus to armor class against monsters of the giant type against attacks from that opponent (regardless of its creature type) instead of the +1 bonus granted by the dodge feat.

I think that instead of the +1 Dodge bonus you would normally apply to ONE opponent, you instead apply your dodge bonus against giants to ONE opponent. If that's the case, I think I might select a different 9th level feat.
Tasmar
12-08-05, 06:55 AM From the RoS book:

When you designate a creature at least one size category larger than you as the target of your dodge feat, you apply your racial dodge bonus to armor class against monsters of the giant type against attacks from that opponent (regardless of its creature type) instead of the +1 bonus granted by the dodge feat.

I think that instead of the +1 Dodge bonus you would normally apply to ONE opponent, you instead apply your dodge bonus against giants to ONE opponent. If that's the case, I think I might select a different 9th level feat.

That would be how I think it works which means it extends your dodge feat to a +4 to any creature you designate that is larger than you. Since your a gnome hmmm.... that means humans, dwarves, elves....you could even use Reduce Person to make the bonus apply to small creatures too! Side Note: since sneak attack damage and movement is uneffected by the spell, you'll be hard to hit/see and still can pull off the same attacks.

Anyways Titan Fighting isn't adding a +4 to your AC against all your opponents, but Dodge isn't adding that +1 all the time either. Titan Fighting makes Dodge worth it to me especially if you can get Dodge free somewhere else.
ElfHunter
12-09-05, 12:45 AM That would be how I think it works which means it extends your dodge feat to a +4 to any creature you designate that is larger than you. Since your a gnome hmmm.... that means humans, dwarves, elves....you could even use Reduce Person to make the bonus apply to small creatures too! Side Note: since sneak attack damage and movement is uneffected by the spell, you'll be hard to hit/see and still can pull off the same attacks.

Anyways Titan Fighting isn't adding a +4 to your AC against all your opponents, but Dodge isn't adding that +1 all the time either. Titan Fighting makes Dodge worth it to me especially if you can get Dodge free somewhere else.

I agree with all your points, however, in order to make the NsE PrC, I have to have Improved Initiative. There, with much regret, :weep: I have to give up Titan Fighting (my only racial feat). I also like Extra Silence and Silencing Strike, but I just can't fit them into this build. Maybe it would be better with a different build based on the Assassin PrC.
ElfHunter
12-09-05, 02:45 AM [QUOTE=My build suggestion, if you need more feats:

Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 9/Telflammar Shadowlord 6

Take shadowlord as soon as you meet the requirements, and take your first fighter level at to pick up Weapon Finessse ASAP.

Don't bother maxing Open Lock, Decipher Script, or Climb. All of those skills have fixed DCs, one of them is completely surpassed by a spell (Climb), the other is mostly superceded by a spell (Open Lock). You don't usually need Sleight of Hand to be maxed, either. This brings you down to 6 skills you need to max, which should be fine, especially if you drop your first stat boost into Int to even it out.[/QUOTE]

Okay, with that in mind, these are the skills I intend on maxing out: Disable Device, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Tumble, and UMD.

I might not be able to max out all of them, but these will get the most consideration.

It appears that whisper gnomes are simply made to be rogues. However, I just might put up a ranger build later on. :dancin:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElfHunter 12-04-05, 05:33 AM	It has been quite a long time since I've played a race of small size (I always hated the movement penalties). However, the Whisper Gnome from Races of Stone is a race that I think I can do! What I'm looking for are optimized builds for this race. I was thinking of doing the ranger/rogue/PrC thing, but that seems a little uninspired. I would also like to incorporate both of the Whisper Gnomes' racial feats into any suggested builds. Here are the books I'm allowed to use in my campaign: 3.5 only, Core, Complete, Races, Forgotten Realms and XPH. This race seems to be geared for stealth, so I would definitely do something rogue like here, but I'm open to ANY suggestions. Thanks in advance!
SoulGamit 12-04-05, 11:39 AM	You either want something stealthing (notcm, rogue, ninja, scout) or you want the shadowcraft mage.
ElfHunter 12-05-05, 05:51 AM	I think I'm going to try the Rogue3/Ftr2/Asn8/TSL6. Any good suggestions for skills/feats? Feats will be at a major premium because of the Whisper Gnome race (as opposed to human). I was thinking of attempting the spring attack tree, along with the dodge/titan fighting feat for good AC. Suggestions?
Sang-Drax 12-05-05, 07:58 PM	I think I'm going to try the Rogue3/Ftr2/Asn8/TSL6. Any good suggestions for skills/feats? Feats will be at a major premium because of the Whisper Gnome race (as opposed to human). I was thinking of attempting the spring attack tree, along with the dodge/titan fighting feat for good AC. Suggestions? Since you'll have to take the Spring Attack feat to qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord anyway, you don't have much of an option in there. And, since you'll have to pick dodge in order to accomplish that, titan fighting is a really good deal. When you PM'd me, you also mentioned Extra Silence and Silencing Attack. I really love these feats, specially flavorwise, but I would say that your build is too feat-intensive as it is. There are quite a few key feats like Craven and Quicken Spell-like Ability (Dimension Door) that could never be left out! Of course, the latter feat can only be taken if you take the Shadow-Walker template. The 2 weapon fighting tree is also a must for any Shadowlord, as it makes the most out of your dimension door + full attack ability. I guess those would be a lot more valuable than Silencing Attack.
Inkling 12-05-05, 08:22 PM	I wonder if a Warlock would make a great infiltrator/assassin (lower-case assassin) build for a whisper gnome. I've always wanted to see a comparison of Rogue vs Warlock when it comes to infiltrating power. Warlocks have detect magic at will (great for detecting magical traps), baleful utterance which is nearly as good as having infinite knock spells, spider climb at will for those hard-to-reach spots, entropic warding which is infinite pass without trace AND 20% miss chance. At mid-levels it's even nastier with dimension door (with an illusion-chaser) at will, fly at will, and/or invisibility at will. I always thought that the only thing missing from a warlock is silence and the whisper gnome fills that gap perfectly.
Iaimeki 12-05-05, 11:48 PM	Whisper gnomes don't get the racial bonus to illusion save DCs and silence is aggravating for casters, so I've never thought of them as particularly suited to the shadow illusions gnome. The racial silence ability makes them great caster-killers, especially at low levels, but even at higher levels silence can be inconvenient for a lot of casters. I'm a big fan of warlock (CA)/rogue multiclasses (straight warlock is just not strong enough to compete at high levels, but the at-will spell-like abilities and some of the other class abilities are beneficial for a warlock-splashing rogue). Spellthief (CV) is another good choice, though the Cha penalty is a little aggravating; however, the only thing important that depends on it is spells, so as long as you can manage 14, you should be fine. Spells, even minor spells, help a lot in killing casters, so assassin and Telflammar shadowlord are also strong choices; if that's what you're inclined to, Elfhunter, that's a good combination. Psionics is another option: it combines very well with the racial silence ability because manifesting doesn't require verbal components. Psychic rogue (from the Mind's Eye section on this website), shadowmind (CV), cognition thief (PGtF), and psychic assassin (also Mind's Eye) all work well. For the assassin/Telflammar shadowlord, max out Dex and Int, make sure to take Weapon Finesse and the TWF tree as much as you can, get Silencing Strike, and take Extra Silence if you can.
Sang-Drax 12-06-05, 05:10 AM	Whisper gnomes don't get the racial bonus to illusion save DCs and silence is aggravating for casters, so I've never thought of them as particularly suited to the shadow illusions gnome. As a side note, Silencing Strike denies the victim's saving throw.
Iaimeki 12-06-05, 03:07 PM	As a side note, Silencing Strike denies the victim's saving throw. Indeed, which is why it's so great for caster-slaying. Odd rules note: though the warlock's description implies that the warlock's spell-like abilities have somatic components, it's nowhere explicitly mentioned for general invocations that they have verbal components. Since spell-like abilities have no components under normal circumstances, one could argue that the warlock's invocations don't either. (I suspect the designers intended that they would, though.)
Sang-Drax 12-06-05, 04:15 PM	Indeed, which is why it's so great for caster-slaying. :doh: Yeah, I misunderstood what you wanted to say. I hadn't read the shadowcraft mage part. Since spell-like abilities have no components under normal circumstances, one could argue that the warlock's invocations don't either. (I suspect the designers intended that they would, though.) Not only one could argue, I don't think there are any statements that would even imply otherwise. It's explicit when it says that it's like a spell-like ability that incurs in ASF (and, thus, somatic components could be required).
ElfHunter 12-06-05, 04:17 PM	Here's a build for a character that I rolled up: Race: Whisper Gnome (of course) Str16, Dex17, Con16, Int17, Wis14, Cha12 Build Pattern Rog5/Asn5/TSL6/??4 (maybe go further in the Asn/Rog Levels) I MIGHT get the Shadow-walker template for free (without LA). If not, then one of those other levels will go to that. Here is my proposed feat pattern: 1st-Dodge, 3rd-Mobility, 6th-Wpn Finesse, 9th-Spring Atk, 12th-Titan Fighting, 15th-Quicken spell like ability, 18th-?? Maxed out skills list: Hide, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Tumble, Decipher Script, Climb, UMD, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand. I think I might need to take a couple levels of fighter to get a couple of bonus feats. Not sure where to go from here...I might have to scrap this whole idea and start over with something more focused :(
Iaimeki 12-06-05, 08:48 PM	Not only one could argue, I don't think there are any statements that would even imply otherwise. It's explicit when it says that it's like a spell-like ability that incurs in ASF (and, thus, somatic components could be required). Well, baleful utterance arguably has a verbal component (though you could argue that it should just have the sonic descriptor and not a verbal component per se). My own feeling is that the designers intended invocations to "work like" spells, so have verbal and somatic components. (Thus the arcane spell failure in armor.) However, there's no textual basis for this, so by strict RAW, they probably have no components. Here's a build for a character that I rolled up: Race: Whisper Gnome (of course) Str16, Dex17, Con16, Int17, Wis14, Cha12 Build Pattern Rog5/Asn5/TSL6/??4 (maybe go further in the Asn/Rog Levels) I MIGHT get the Shadow-walker template for free (without LA). If not, then one of those other levels will go to that. Here is my proposed feat pattern: 1st-Dodge, 3rd-Mobility, 6th-Wpn Finesse, 9th-Spring Atk, 12th-Titan Fighting, 15th-Quicken spell like ability, 18th-?? Maxed out skills list: Hide, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Tumble, Decipher Script, Climb, UMD, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand. I think I might need to take a couple levels of fighter to get a couple of bonus feats. Not sure where to go from here...I might have to scrap this whole idea and start over with something more focused :( Are those abilities before or after racial adjustments? If after, swap Str and Dex (for 20 Dex and 14 Str): with Weapon Finesse and sneak attack, you don't need that much Str, and Dex boosts most of the skills you care about as well as your AC, initiative (important for a rogue), and Reflex saves. I think Titan Fighting is underwhelming, to say the least. It depends on fighting creatures of the giant type, and even then it's only +3 AC against _one_ opponent. There are many better feat options. My build suggestion, if you need more feats: Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 9/Telflammar Shadowlord 6 Take shadowlord as soon as you meet the requirements, and take your first fighter level at to pick up Weapon Finessse ASAP. Don't bother maxing Open Lock, Decipher Script, or Climb. All of those skills have fixed DCs, one of them is completely surpassed by a spell (Climb), the other is mostly superceded by a spell (Open Lock). You don't usually need Sleight of Hand to be maxed, either. This brings you down to 6 skills you need to max, which should be fine, especially if you drop your first stat boost into Int to even it out.
Tasmar 12-06-05, 08:55 PM	I think Titan Fighting is underwhelming, to say the least. It depends on fighting creatures of the giant type, and even then it's only +3 AC against _one_ opponent. There are many better feat options. IIRC Titan Fighting applies that +4 to any opponent that is a size larger (or more) than you that you assign your dodge feat bonus against. Against giants the bonus applies twice. Yes, +8 against a single giant. Along with the huge difference between sizes that already applies to AC.
ElfHunter 12-07-05, 06:59 AM	I agree with Tasimar on the Titan Fighting feat. I think it's worth consideration. I also like the discussion on skills. With the aforementioned skill structure, I can use the extra points for other things. Thanks for all the help. I will post a new build soon.
Inkling 12-07-05, 08:10 AM	IIRC Titan Fighting applies that +4 to any opponent that is a size larger (or more) than you that you assign your dodge feat bonus against. Against giants the bonus applies twice. Yes, +8 against a single giant. Along with the huge difference between sizes that already applies to AC.Are you sure that's how Titan Fighting works? I thought it just extended your dodge bonus to other creatures besides giants, not give you a whole extra dodge bonus to all Large creatures that stacks with your original bonus vs giants.
ElfHunter 12-08-05, 04:14 AM	After much thought, I have decided to go with this starting 15 level build for my Whisper Gnome: Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Guild Thief 3/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Telflammar Shadowlord 5/Spellsword 1 First and foremost, I would like to thank Sang-Drax for all of his help (and the above build suggestion). I think I focused too much on stacking the death attack of the assassin and the TSL. Instead, this build provides decent SA, and some much needed help with my dreaded Will save. It also provides decent skill synergy (with the exception of the fighter classes. Finally, the Spellsword PrC will let me cast some spells in armor. 1. rog1 dodge 2. fig1 weapon finesse* 3. fig2 blind-fighting, mobility* 4. rog2 5. rog3 6. gth1 spring attack 7. gth2 two-weapon fighting* 8. nse1 9. tsl1 titan fighting If I'm able to get the shadow-walker template for free, this will be my feat selection (thanks again to Sang-Drax for this). A TSL needs TWF to be fully effective, and while I wish I could fit in the racial feats (extra silence and silencing strike), I just didn't have the room. I'm also debating the ninth level feat titan fighting. A few posts on this topic have brought this into question. Perhaps a different feat might be in order. Any suggestions would be welcome. I will be starting the character at level 6 or 7, so just about everything would be in place. What magic items should I take? How about gear? Any thoughts?
ElfHunter 12-08-05, 04:46 AM	Are you sure that's how Titan Fighting works? I thought it just extended your dodge bonus to other creatures besides giants, not give you a whole extra dodge bonus to all Large creatures that stacks with your original bonus vs giants. From the RoS book: When you designate a creature at least one size category larger than you as the target of your dodge feat, you apply your racial dodge bonus to armor class against monsters of the giant type against attacks from that opponent (regardless of its creature type) instead of the +1 bonus granted by the dodge feat. I think that instead of the +1 Dodge bonus you would normally apply to ONE opponent, you instead apply your dodge bonus against giants to ONE opponent. If that's the case, I think I might select a different 9th level feat.
Tasmar 12-08-05, 06:55 AM	From the RoS book: When you designate a creature at least one size category larger than you as the target of your dodge feat, you apply your racial dodge bonus to armor class against monsters of the giant type against attacks from that opponent (regardless of its creature type) instead of the +1 bonus granted by the dodge feat. I think that instead of the +1 Dodge bonus you would normally apply to ONE opponent, you instead apply your dodge bonus against giants to ONE opponent. If that's the case, I think I might select a different 9th level feat. That would be how I think it works which means it extends your dodge feat to a +4 to any creature you designate that is larger than you. Since your a gnome hmmm.... that means humans, dwarves, elves....you could even use Reduce Person to make the bonus apply to small creatures too! Side Note: since sneak attack damage and movement is uneffected by the spell, you'll be hard to hit/see and still can pull off the same attacks. Anyways Titan Fighting isn't adding a +4 to your AC against all your opponents, but Dodge isn't adding that +1 all the time either. Titan Fighting makes Dodge worth it to me especially if you can get Dodge free somewhere else.
ElfHunter 12-09-05, 12:45 AM	That would be how I think it works which means it extends your dodge feat to a +4 to any creature you designate that is larger than you. Since your a gnome hmmm.... that means humans, dwarves, elves....you could even use Reduce Person to make the bonus apply to small creatures too! Side Note: since sneak attack damage and movement is uneffected by the spell, you'll be hard to hit/see and still can pull off the same attacks. Anyways Titan Fighting isn't adding a +4 to your AC against all your opponents, but Dodge isn't adding that +1 all the time either. Titan Fighting makes Dodge worth it to me especially if you can get Dodge free somewhere else. I agree with all your points, however, in order to make the NsE PrC, I have to have Improved Initiative. There, with much regret, :weep: I have to give up Titan Fighting (my only racial feat). I also like Extra Silence and Silencing Strike, but I just can't fit them into this build. Maybe it would be better with a different build based on the Assassin PrC.
ElfHunter 12-09-05, 02:45 AM	[QUOTE=My build suggestion, if you need more feats: Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 9/Telflammar Shadowlord 6 Take shadowlord as soon as you meet the requirements, and take your first fighter level at to pick up Weapon Finessse ASAP. Don't bother maxing Open Lock, Decipher Script, or Climb. All of those skills have fixed DCs, one of them is completely surpassed by a spell (Climb), the other is mostly superceded by a spell (Open Lock). You don't usually need Sleight of Hand to be maxed, either. This brings you down to 6 skills you need to max, which should be fine, especially if you drop your first stat boost into Int to even it out.[/QUOTE] Okay, with that in mind, these are the skills I intend on maxing out: Disable Device, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Tumble, and UMD. I might not be able to max out all of them, but these will get the most consideration. It appears that whisper gnomes are simply made to be rogues. However, I just might put up a ranger build later on. :dancin: