Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dain 01-12-05, 01:05 PM	Before everyone gets too caught up in Complete Adventurer (which I too think is a great book), I would like to hear some opinions and thoughts about how to create a succesful Chameleon. I'm especially in doubt as to which feats would be appropriate. It seems to me that Rogue 3/Ftr 2 is the best way to qualify, although I've seen some other interesting options like Cleric 1/Ftr 4 (for a Divine Metamagic sorta guy). But let's say we went with the Rogue 3/Fighter 2 prefix: 1) Rogue 1: 2x FEAT (Able learner, xxx) 2) Rog 1/Ftr 1: FEAT (xxx) 3) Rog 2/Ftr 1: FEAT (xxx) 4) Rog 2/Ftr 2: FEAT (xxx) 5) Rog 3/Ftr 2: 6) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 1: FEAT (xxx) 7) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 2: FEAT (xxx) 8) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 3: 9) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 4: FEAT (xxx) 10) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 5: 11) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 6: 12) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 7: FEAT (xxx) That's EIGHT feats to play with over the first 12 levels! There's got to be some way to make this guy rock. Spiked chain tripper? Arcane striking? What do you think?
Mommy was an Orc 01-12-05, 01:29 PM	I've got a compilation going. here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=360082&highlight=Chameleon) But I think the Chameleon is actually pretty simple to build out. There's really 3 main problems: Do you have less than +16 BAB? Yes: Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell), Combat/Divine Focus. No: +16 BAB or better, Combat/Arcane Focus. How do you plan to get your primary combat stat work with your BAB and main attack? Zen Archery, Weapon Finesse, etc... Then, I think it really depends on how you plan to finish out the last 5-8 levels - if you want to duplicate a Dervish in combat, then you might be a Rogue 2/Ranger 3/Chameleon 7/Dervish 7/Horizon Walker 1 And that determines your feats - you take the feats that a Dervish build would.
Sabis 01-12-05, 01:30 PM	A better prefix would be Cleric 1/Ftr2/Marshal 1/Rogue1, or Rog1/Paladin of Freedom 4 or for uberly evasiveness, Rog1/Hexblade3/Rog+1. The first gives you two fighter feats, a slew of special abilites, a motivate aura (can we say adding 4-8 poitns to your whole parties inish?) and the ability to divine metamagic (persistant spell) your good buffs that you can take from any class. (can we say persistnat divine might and righteous might anyone?) The second gives you A stronger armored build w/ a better BAB, and all the paladin/Divine metamagic goodness. The third gives you Mettle, Evasion, Arcane Resistance, letting you avoid most hazardous effects. But no matter how you slice it, Rog3/Ftr2 is a sub-optomial way to prefix the class.
Mommy was an Orc 01-12-05, 02:50 PM	Those builds really aren't better than Rogue 3/Fighter 2. Charisma is a dump stat for Chameleons. A Rogue 3/Fighter 2 can have an 8 charisma with no real ill effects. An extra 6 points of stats makes a big difference in point buy... But no matter how you slice it, Rog3/Ftr2 is a sub-optomial way to prefix the class.
Snow Savant 01-12-05, 03:09 PM	I still don't have the book in my hands yet ... but I believe the Illumians are considered a legal race for Chameleon (correct me if I am wrong) sinec I read somewhere that they are considered "human" due to subtype or something like that. If so, the Sigil Combination that nets you either DEX or STR as an aggregate casting stat for *all* your spellcaster classes seems to be really strong. Especially DEX, for you Chameleon Archers. Which means if you start your build off at a high enough level, you can dump *all* your mental stats (if you want) and get spellcasting, archery BAB, init & AC benefits all from DEX. Take a Cham build with BAB +16, then for Cham take both Divine and Arcane spell lists with your high DEX, and you got a focused character archetype. Say, Ranger2 / Rogue3 ... ChamX ... then X levels of archery-friendly +1 BAB/Level. I realize this is a lot of hypothetical typing for a bookless chick, so feel free to shoot this down.
Mommy was an Orc 01-12-05, 03:29 PM	A little unclear - by the RAW, they appear to be, as they're the human subtype. But in the same book, there's an Illumian-only prestige class without specifying any Illumian-only reason to join. Either they're different or they're not. But the problem with the stat is more clear - that just gets you Dexterity as a replacement for bonus spells, but not DCs or the ability to cast a particular spell in the first place. If you're a Chameleon Divine caster, you still need a 16 Wisdom to cast 6th level spells and you net an all powerful 13+level DC. Where if you levelled up Wisdom and did everything you possibly could to further increase it, you'd end up with a 24(maybe 25)+level DC. If so, the Sigil Combination that nets you either DEX or STR as an aggregate casting stat for *all* your spellcaster classes seems to be really strong. I realize this is a lot of hypothetical typing for a bookless chick, so feel free to shoot this down.
Snow Savant 01-12-05, 03:51 PM	Gotcha. Spell Level Access Ability is definitely an issue here. DC's ... eh, not really. Since I like the Cham concept as a BAB +16 Archer type as well, I see him using his plethora of spells for more utilitarian, buffing, divination, and special purpose effects than outright attacking. I like the divine option over the arcane because of the better armor issue as well as access to Anyspell/Greater Anyspell (to cherry pick off the arcane spell list). Anyspell's casting requirements are a bit burdensome at times. But for absolutely crucial arcane spells with divine equivalents, its the route to take. The nice thing is that there are so many spell lists out there that that have awesome high level spells (for a primary caster) knocked down 1-3 notches for certain classes/prc's. Ranger, Consecrated Harrier, Paladin, Hexblade, Assassin, Blighter, Demonologist, etc. The Cham can really benefit from this ... XO, Snow :cloud9:
Mommy was an Orc 01-12-05, 04:02 PM	You can't quite do that - Anyspell isn't actually on the spell list of a divine casting class... If you catch any spells I've missed, I'll add 'em to the compilation. I like the divine option over the arcane because of the better armor issue as well as access to Anyspell/Greater Anyspell (to cherry pick off the arcane spell list). Anyspell's casting requirements are a bit burdensome at times. But for absolutely crucial arcane spells with divine equivalents, its the route to take. The nice thing is that there are so many spell lists out there that that have awesome high level spells (for a primary caster) knocked down 1-3 notches for certain classes/prc's. Ranger, Consecrated Harrier, Paladin, Hexblade, Assassin, Blighter, Demonologist, etc. The Cham can really benefit from this ... XO, Snow :cloud9:
Snow Savant 01-12-05, 04:08 PM	You can't quite do that - Anyspell isn't actually on the spell list of a divine casting class... If you catch any spells I've missed, I'll add 'em to the compilation. Not true! Look at the "special" spell list of the Divine Champion PrC in the Complete Divine book. The Chameleon's divine spellcasting mechanics can simulate the Divine Champ's domain-based spell list just fine ... Which lets you take any damn domain-only divine spell you want - like Moon, Spider, etc. Well ... 1st to 6th level that is. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Caelic 01-12-05, 04:13 PM	One thing I'd like to get firmly established is whether or not Chameleon counts as an arcane and/or divine spellcasting class. We know that the spells gained through Arcane/Divine Focus can't be used to qualify for classes, feats, and the like...but setting that aside, can I, for instance, add my Sublime Chord level to my Chameleon level to come up with an effective caster level? A certain number of possible builds depend almost entirely upon the answer to that question.
Mommy was an Orc 01-12-05, 04:13 PM	It actually isn't on the spell list of the Divine Whatever PrC the class, it is on the spell list of some of its members. The wording specifies 'spell list of divine casting class' Not true! Look at the "special" spell list of the Divine Champion PrC in the Complete Divine book.
Snow Savant 01-12-05, 04:24 PM	It actually isn't on the spell list of the Divine Whatever PrC the class, it is on the spell list of some of its members. The wording specifies 'spell list of divine casting class'I'm almost certain if you dissect the exact wording of the DivChamp's spell list semantics, you'll either get Chameleon access or a legal gray area with wiggle room to extrapolate. :P One thing I'd like to get firmly established is whether or not Chameleon counts as an arcane and/or divine spellcasting class. We know that the spells gained through Arcane/Divine Focus can't be used to qualify for classes, feats, and the like...but setting that aside, can I, for instance, add my Sublime Chord level to my Chameleon level to come up with an effective caster level? I have no books near me, but I believe the issue is with the word "qualify" in Cham's class ability write-up. Sublime Chord doesn't do any qualifying to my knowledge. It just has a statement telling you to add your spellcaster level to "X". XO, Snow :cloud9:
Dain 01-12-05, 07:23 PM	Mommy was an Orc - I like your work on the builds! But it would be kind of nice if recommended feats where fleshed out too, although that would be a lot of work, of course. As to my Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10 example, I'm not really sure where to go after finishing chameleon. Getting full BAB seems important - BAB 16 at level 20 is always good. Ranger perhaps? Or is that too "ordinary"? Perhaps Invisible Blade? Hmm... just seems too specialized for a chameleon. I think that my problem might be that I really want to be good at everything (and hence will probably end up being good at nothing.). How about this for an alround kinda guy (with some focus on archery): 1) Rogue 1: 2x FEAT (Able learner, Improved Initiative) 2) Rog 1/Rgr 1: FEAT (Track) 3) Rog 2/Rgr 1: FEAT (Point blank shot) 4) Rog 2/Rgr 2: FEAT (Rapid Shot) 5) Rog 3/Rgr 2: 6) Rog 3/Rgr 2/Chm 1: FEAT (Precise Shot) 7) Rog 3/Rgr 2/Chm 2: FEAT (WF: Greatsword/WF: Longbow, depending on mood) 8) Rog 3/Rgr 2/Chm 3: 9) Rog 3/Rgr 2/Chm 4: FEAT (Power Attack) 10) Rog 3/Rgr 2/Chm 5: 11) Rog 3/Rgr 2/Chm 6: 12) Rog 3/Rgr 2/Chm 7: FEAT (Cleave) 13) Rog 3/Rgr 2/Chm 8: 14) Rog 3/Rgr 2/Chm 9: 15) Rog 3/Rgr 2/Chm 10: FEAT (Improved Toughness) 16) Rog 3/Rgr 2/Chm 10/Ftr 1: FEAT (Manyshot) 17) Rog 3/Rgr 2/Chm 10/Ftr 2: FEAT (Improved Rapid Shot) 18) Rog 3/Rgr 3/Chm 10/Ftr 2: 2x FEAT (Endurance, Improved Precise Shot) 19) Rog 3/Rgr 4/Chm 10/Ftr 2: 20) Rog 3/Rgr 5/Chm 10/Ftr 2: I'm still fiddling with a chain-wielding chameleon tripper. Hope to have it up soon.
Mommy was an Orc 01-12-05, 08:14 PM	Thanks! Feats really are about what the style of build is - Chameleon lends itself well to pretty much any Skill Monkey or FullBab build. Like everything else the Chameleon does, they just steal it :) And as always, if you've already got 3 levels of Ranger, take at least a level of Horizon Walker - Desert gives you immunity to fatigue, making the Chameleon Rage ability much more valuable. The 2nd level for innate Darkvision isn't bad either. Finally, one of the things the floating feat is really good for is getting the next essential feat of the build. I find that works very well for making for having to take Able Learner. Mommy was an Orc - I like your work on the builds! But it would be kind of nice if recommended feats where fleshed out too, although that would be a lot of work, of course. As to my Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10 example, I'm not really sure where to go after finishing chameleon. Getting full BAB seems important - BAB 16 at level 20 is always good. Ranger perhaps? Or is that too "ordinary"?
TerrickTerran 01-12-05, 08:17 PM	Illumians can qualify for Chameleon as they're the human subtype.
Lilt 01-12-05, 08:35 PM	Hmm. I'm not sure about that interpretation, snow. It says that the spell list is 'effectively', but not 'actually', a spell list of 9 spells... Is there any official line on this?
Mommy was an Orc 01-12-05, 09:00 PM	By the RAW, yes. By the spirit, maybe. The good example of this is the Loredelver PrC. The Race is Illumians, but none of the entry requirements specify an ability that only Illumians have. Which if we are to believe the Chameleon argument means that regular humans should be able to qualify for Loredelver as they basically just said Humanoid of the human sub-type. I think there's a pretty good argument that the writer was intending only humans to be able to qualify for Chameleon. Illumians can qualify for Chameleon as they're the human subtype.
incubus 01-12-05, 10:26 PM	By the RAW, yes. By the spirit, maybe. The good example of this is the Loredelver PrC. The Race is Illumians, but none of the entry requirements specify an ability that only Illumians have. If I understand you right, then the loredelver has "race: Illumian" as a prereq. Is that right? Even if humans are humanoid (human), and illumians are humanoid (human), then humans are still not illumians. For comparison - Elephants are grey. Nelly is grey. Is Nelly an Elephant?
Engilbrand 01-12-05, 10:39 PM	A WizO commented on this a few weeks back. Any of the races that are decended from humans can take anything that says "Human" in the pre-reqs. I thought that there was a table that talked about adding half-elves and half-orcs to that list, too. Can't remember. But Illumians can be chameleons. When it comes to Loredelver, incubus is correct. You MUST be an Illumian to enter that PrC.
Bestopheles 01-12-05, 11:29 PM	Before everyone gets too caught up in Complete Adventurer (which I too think is a great book), I would like to hear some opinions and thoughts about how to create a succesful Chameleon. I'm especially in doubt as to which feats would be appropriate. It seems to me that Rogue 3/Ftr 2 is the best way to qualify, although I've seen some other interesting options like Cleric 1/Ftr 4 (for a Divine Metamagic sorta guy). But let's say we went with the Rogue 3/Fighter 2 prefix: 1) Rogue 1: 2x FEAT (Able learner, xxx) 2) Rog 1/Ftr 1: FEAT (xxx) 3) Rog 2/Ftr 1: FEAT (xxx) 4) Rog 2/Ftr 2: FEAT (xxx) 5) Rog 3/Ftr 2: 6) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 1: FEAT (xxx) 7) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 2: FEAT (xxx) 8) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 3: 9) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 4: FEAT (xxx) 10) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 5: 11) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 6: 12) Rog 3/Ftr 2/Chm 7: FEAT (xxx) That's EIGHT feats to play with over the first 12 levels! There's got to be some way to make this guy rock. Spiked chain tripper? Arcane striking? What do you think? I don't think this is legal. Don't you need Bluff and disguise both at 8 ranks to take the PrC? And since fighters don't have those as class skills, I'd guess that the earliest you could jump into that prc with 2 levels of figher would be 7th ish. If i'm wrong please correct me. Jason
Antendren 01-12-05, 11:36 PM	You're mistaken. If a skill is a class skill for any of your classes, your max rank is HD+3. So you can have 8 at level 5. Presumably this build would purchase 4 ranks each of Bluff and Disguise at level 1, none at level 2, 2 ranks each at level 3, none at level 4, and another 2 ranks each at level 5.
catharz 01-12-05, 11:40 PM	A good, simple build with two bases is Illumian Ardent dilettante 1/Chameleon 10, with bases of either Monk 2/Hexblade 3 or Cloistered cleric 1/Hexblade 4. As Snow said, use UurKrau. Int should be at exactly 16, and Wis should be at exactly 10. Sure you could do it with a 10 Int, but that would be a bit self-defeating with the wealth of skills out there. This also frees up the second ability boon for something nice like Dex. The two bases have their own virtues. The first one has better saves as well as evasion, Unarmed strike, and no silly deity issues. The second one can take better advantage of a good Cha with Turn-stuff, and counts as both an arcane an divine spellcaster for the purposes of qualifying for stuff (like Item creation feats).
Dain 01-13-05, 09:56 AM	Just made a new build! A bit more Divine Focus this time around. And a bit more focus on being good at one thing: Combat. 1) Ranger 1: 3x FEAT (Track, Able learner, Power attack) 2) Rgr 1/Clr 1: Olidammara (Trickery, luck) 3) Rgr 1/Clr 1/Ftr 1: 2x FEAT (Cleave, Quicken spell) 4) Rgr 1/Clr 1/Ftr 2: FEAT (Improved Toughness) 5) Rgr 2/Clr 1/Ftr 2: FEAT (Rapid Shot) 6) Rgr 2/Clr 1/Ftr 2/Chm 1: FEAT (Extra Turning) 7) Rgr 2/Clr 1/Ftr 2/Chm 2: FEAT (Divine Metamagic (Quicken)) 8) Rgr 2/Clr 1/Ftr 2/Chm 3: 9) Rgr 2/Clr 1/Ftr 2/Chm 4: FEAT (Extra Turning) 10) Rgr 2/Clr 1/Ftr 2/Chm 5: 11) Rgr 2/Clr 1/Ftr 2/Chm 6: 12) Rgr 2/Clr 1/Ftr 2/Chm 7: FEAT (Extra Turning) 13) Rgr 2/Clr 1/Ftr 2/Chm 8: 14) Rgr 2/Clr 1/Ftr 2/Chm 9: 15) Rgr 2/Clr 1/Ftr 2/Chm 10: FEAT (Extra Turning) Instead of the suggested Clr 1/Ftr 4 prefix I did 2 ranger levels instead of the two last fighter levels. It gives much more versatility, and since you're going to be fighting with a Club (with spikes cast on it + Quickened Divine Power), fighter 4 doesn't seem to be worth it anyway. And starting with Ranger is always a sweat deal because of the skill points. Divine Focus and Combat Focus, obviously. The ability boost in either Strength, Constitution or Wisdom. I cant figure out what the last 5 levels should be, though. Suggestions?
carnivore 01-13-05, 10:08 AM	nice........for the last levels......look for any 5 lvl PrC that you can qualify for that gives full BAB: invisible blade master thrower occult slayer etc........... or mix it up with full BAB dips: exotic weapon master 1/ deepwoods sniper 4 or DWS 2/ cragtop archer 2 paladin 2/ swashbuckler 3 barbarian 1/ frenzied berserker 4 singh rager 5 etc............ whatever you like :D
Mommy was an Orc 01-13-05, 11:46 AM	By the RAW, what is an Illumian? A humanoid of the human subtype... I think the writer's intent was that only Humans of PHB were intended to be Chameleons. If you look on page 90, the Prestige Classes listed for Illumians are Loredelver and Shadow Sentinel. On page 32, the Prestige Classes listed for Humans are Chameleon and Urban Soul. If the writer agreed with what you're saying, wouldn't they have also put down Chameleon and Urban Soul there? The chart you're referring to is a variant rule option. A WizO commented on this a few weeks back. Any of the races that are decended from humans can take anything that says "Human" in the pre-reqs. I thought that there was a table that talked about adding half-elves and half-orcs to that list, too. Can't remember. But Illumians can be chameleons. When it comes to Loredelver, incubus is correct. You MUST be an Illumian to enter that PrC.
Dain 01-13-05, 11:11 PM	I've made an Arcane Focus guy too. Here he is: Chameleon Tripper/Arcane Caster: 1) Rogue 1: 2x FEAT (Able learner, Combat Reflexes), SA +1d6 2) Rog 1/Swb 1: FEAT (Weapon Finesse) 3) Rog 1/Swb 2: FEAT (EWP: Spiked Chain) 4) Rog 1/Swb 3: Insightful Strike 5) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 1: FEAT (Combat Expertise) 6) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 1/Chm 1: FEAT (Improved Trip) 7) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 1/Chm 2: FEAT (Deft Opportunitist) 8) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 1/Chm 3: 9) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 1/Chm 4: FEAT (Dodge) 10) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 1/Chm 5: 11) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 1/Chm 6: 12) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 1/Chm 7: FEAT (Karmic Strike) 13) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 1/Chm 8: 14) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 1/Chm 9: 15) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 1/Chm 10: FEAT (WF: Spiked Chain) 16) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 2/Chm 10: FEAT (Improved Toughness) 17) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 2/Chm 10/EWM 1: Flurry of Strikes 18) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 2/Chm 10/EWM 2: FEAT (Sidestep), Trip Attack 19) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 3/Chm 10/EWM 2: 20) Rog 1/Swb 3/Ftr 4/Chm 10/EWM 2: FEAT (Improved Initiative) The focus isn't just on arcane spellcasting, but also on tripping, obviously. The Ability Boost should go into Int for not only the extra spells, but +3 to damage as well due to Insightful Strike. Overall, the synergy is quite good. And the BAB is at 16, of course, although I did want rogue as the 1st level choice due to skill points and the skill list, which has an almost frightening synergy with Able Learner. What do you think?
Bestopheles 01-13-05, 11:33 PM	You're mistaken. If a skill is a class skill for any of your classes, your max rank is HD+3. So you can have 8 at level 5. Presumably this build would purchase 4 ranks each of Bluff and Disguise at level 1, none at level 2, 2 ranks each at level 3, none at level 4, and another 2 ranks each at level 5. CRIKEY! I never knew that...I thought/assumed it was fractional. That would have changed many of my builds then... I'm actually currently working on a chameleon character build that's just getting ready to hit fifth. Current build looks like this 1 Cloistered Cleric 1 Cloister Cleric/Human Paragon 1 CC/ 2 HP 1 CC/ 3 HP I was going to hit rogue one next level, as it could give me trapfinding and 1d6 backstab (plus all of those juicy skill points which are so nice with able learner) but I may second guess that and instead pop the points into a fighter type for martial weapon proficiences and the bonus feat. Or maybe Spell thief...Hmmm. Decisions, Decisions.... Jason
catharz 01-13-05, 11:34 PM	By the RAW, what is an Illumian? A humanoid of the human subtype... I think the writer's intent was that only Humans of PHB were intended to be Chameleons. If you look on page 90, the Prestige Classes listed for Illumians are Loredelver and Shadow Sentinel. On page 32, the Prestige Classes listed for Humans are Chameleon and Urban Soul. If the writer agreed with what you're saying, wouldn't they have also put down Chameleon and Urban Soul there? The chart you're referring to is a variant rule option. I'm not aware of a better way to define a "human" than a creature with the human subtype. Are you saying that a human that has the "Mineralize warrior" spell cast on him looses his qualification for the Chameleon PrC?
Mommy was an Orc 01-14-05, 01:01 AM	Well, I'm basing this on what the writer wrote. There's no reason for him to have excluded the human-only PrCs from the Illumian description or to not have written down Illumian in who qualifies for those PrCs. There's similarly no reason to have written down Illumian for racial qualification for the Illumian PrCs. An Illumian is a humanoid, subtype human. Any human can qualify for that. What they should have written was 'has two illumian sigils' - something that almost any illumian can qualify for, but no human can. Sloppy editing. I'm not aware of a better way to define a "human" than a creature with the human subtype. Are you saying that a human that has the "Mineralize warrior" spell cast on him looses his qualification for the Chameleon PrC?
Dain 01-14-05, 06:58 AM	Any comments on the Arcane Focus Chain guy?
carnivore 01-14-05, 07:45 AM	:lightbulb you should have used "Skiprocks" :cheer: ........just kidding, by the way nice build...however, remember that the feat that you gain at Chameleon 2 is a variable feat . each day you can change it to what ever you like....try to make sure the feat you put there can be changed to something else without affecting the build adversely..................there are other feats you may want to insert there. all in all, excellent build,...................... :plotting: hmmmm if only there were a Marshal around to motivate dexterity or strength, or trip attacks ;) :D
Dain 01-14-05, 07:53 AM	:lightbulb you should have used "Skiprocks" :cheer: ........just kidding, by the way nice build...however, remember that the feat that you gain at Chameleon 2 is a variable feat . each day you can change it to what ever you like....try to make sure the feat you put there can be changed to something else without affecting the build adversely..................there are other feats you may want to insert there. all in all, excellent build,...................... :plotting: hmmmm if only there were a Marshal around to motivate dexterity or strength, or trip attacks ;) :D Thanks for the praise. :D When I made the build originally I put WF: Spiked Chain into the Variable Feat Slot. But then I remembered it was a pre-req for Exotic Weapon Master, and hence I switched it with Deft Opportunitist - which is very nice, but not invaluable feat.
GrolubFranco 02-28-05, 08:45 AM	What happens to chameleons if they choose the arcane focus while wearing armor? Do they incur in ASF?
Helmed Horror 02-28-05, 09:12 AM	yes, and illumians can not qualify due to the inability to take able learner correct? Same with Changeling?
carnivore 02-28-05, 09:27 AM	yes, and illumians can not qualify due to the inability to take able learner correct? Same with Changeling? actually changelings can qualify : from web preview and RoD exerpt"Adaptation: Chameleons can be made completely nonmagical, where they have no spells but use sleight of hand to make things "disappear," and potions or powders to create smoke, fog, and fire. They could be made completely magical as well, or even psionic, using spells or psionics to actually change themselves into other classes. If you're using the Eberron Campaign Setting, the chameleon prestige class should be available to changeling player characters as well as humans and doppelgangers." they are also able to take the able learner feat. :D
Helmed Horror 02-28-05, 09:36 AM	thank you, but no word on illumian?
carnivore 02-28-05, 10:00 AM	actually i believe you are correct....since there is no mention of them in the reference to able learner or the Chameleon class itself. :D
foxylady 02-28-05, 11:16 AM	By the RAW, yes. By the spirit, maybe. The good example of this is the Loredelver PrC. The Race is Illumians, but none of the entry requirements specify an ability that only Illumians have. Which if we are to believe the Chameleon argument means that regular humans should be able to qualify for Loredelver as they basically just said Humanoid of the human sub-type. Humans do not have Illumian subtype. Illumians have human subtype. Ergo, Illumians can qualify for human-only PrCs (like Human Paragon), but humans cannot qualify for Illumian-only PrCs.