Best character for Level 1-5 dungeon diver [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best character for Level 1-5 dungeon diver [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Double M
02-09-06, 12:14 PM We may be having a break in our regular campaign to do a simple dungeon crawl that may go a few weeks and probably won't go past 3, but could get up to 4 or 5 depending on how much crawling we do.

I'm looking for a character using elite array stats (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) that could have decent survivability, good damage output, and fun playability. I have at my disposal 3.5 only--core; completes; ua; races of S, D, W; no level adjustment or base races that exist outside of these books (and no races from MM, except subraces of standards like Elf, Dwarf, etc).

I'm honestly at a loss, I was thinking Rogue 3 might be pretty straightforward for all the skill goodness with a high dex and improved init. to get those flat-footed attacks with a decent sneak attack, but it seems kinda blah.

A Power attacking, Half-Orc 2-handed Fighter 2/Barb 1 might put out a bunch of damage and have a lot of hitpoints, but also seems a bit blah.

A 3-level 10 hp wizard sounds like he's begging to get ambushed and sneak attacked from behind... so I'm at a loss.

Any thoughts are appreciated.
Thindelock
02-09-06, 12:56 PM I'm a Dwarf fan. A dwarf cleric has the hit points, the armor, you can have decent strength, and you get healing, Speedbump-summoners, etc. The 4th level racial sub in RoS gives you warhammer proficiency and +2 damage with warhammer. Spellcasting with HP, high AC and a decent attack bonus are all good if you're looking for versatile survivability.

A dwarf rogue is great for finding secret doors and traps. The con bonus offsets the d6 HD, and sneak attack is always nice. The problem, of course, is getting around behind your enemy to flank when you only move 20ft.

Also, for classic dungeons, stonecunning and darkvision are very nice perks.

But, that's just me. I like dwarves.

Edit: Brought the post up to the standards of the English language, or at least closer. I blame sleep deprivation.
DDogwood
02-09-06, 01:12 PM Spirit Shaman from CDiv might be worth a look - you get decent hit points, Druid spell access, 2nd-level spells by level 3, and a good number of spells/day. The hard part would be choosing which spells you want access to each day, because there are lots of good ones on the list.
Double M
02-09-06, 01:45 PM Thindelock,

I like the idea of the Dwarf Cleric, but I'm thinking that you only get 2 feats by 3rd level whereas a human fighter 2/?x would have 5 feats and with 5 feats you can have a heck of a lot of options. What feats would best fit into the Dwarf Cleric 1-3 build?
Thindelock
02-09-06, 02:34 PM It honestly depends on your DM and your party, as well as your tastes.

If feats are your concern, just choose your domains carefully. Look at the domain lists in Spell Compendium if you have access to that; many give feats. Thus, assuming the same race, a cleric 3 can have as many feats as a fighter 3, along with better will saves and spellcasting, in exchange for one Base Attack and an average of 2-3 more HP.

If your DM will allow the persistant divine cheese, you can get that by 3rd-level if you pick the Planning domain (Extend from Planning, Persistant at 1, Divine Meta at 3). It leaves you virtually feat-less until 3rd, but even in low levels a Persistant buff spell is handy. For a low-level game, that's probably not the most optimized build, though.

If you know your DM loves tossing some undead at the players, take feats that enhance your turning. Unless you take the Gold Dwarf variant from DMG or something similar, dwarves do suffer a CHA penalty that hurts turning. Disciple of the Sun and Empower Turning are good choices to help.

If you want to play the super-healer, look at Augment Healing and the Healing domain. At first level, you're rolling 1d8+4 instead of 1d8+1 on CLW, which is very significant to PCs. Divine Spell Power can also help with this if your CHA is decent.

Sacred Vow followed by Vow of Poverty is never a bad call, with the AC tip and all. If you're doing that, I'd take the 1st-level racial sub for Dwarves, which gives up turning, since VoP = no holy symbol = no turning.

Also feat restrictions are your concern, go archery instead of melee. In low levels you're only 1 BAB behind the fighter/ranger, you can cast Magic Weapon and other buffs, and archery generally requires fewer feats to be decent at it. Point Blank Shot at first level, Precise Shot or Zen Archery at 3rd. If your DM is flexible and you come up with a background that would leave a dwarf worshipping Corellon Larethian and company (good luck), the Elf domain gives the Point-Blank Shot feat for free, freeing you up to take both Precise Shot and Zen Archery. Of course, you're using a crossbow, but using a light crossbow at low levels doesn't suck. You'll probably be standing still anyway so the reload time isn't a big deal, and the game's over before iterative attacks become an option for anyone.

Just some thoughts. I admit to not being as adept or graceful as some long-time CO-folks. I'm relatively new here. Relatively little work goes into low-level build optimization around here, from what I've seen, so I'm trying to help as I can.
Double M
02-09-06, 02:59 PM Thindelock,

Thank you so much for your thorough and thoughtful assessment. Unfortunately after all of your good insights, I just discovered that my DM wants to simplify the campaign by making our characters PHB only...so back to the drawing board but the dwarf cleric healer may still be a viable option...assuming that I remember correctly and augment healing is in the PHB (I don't have my copy at the office)...perhaps its augment summoning that's PHB and healing is CD--hmm?

Since the DM is being so restrictive, I have no qualms squeezing every ounce of power I can find out of a low-level PHB-only campaign, so anyone with advice on killer low-level feat combos, class skill synergy, etc, please feel free to add your thoughts to the thread.

Of course, I could just go for pure hack-slash fun and play a dense half-orc fighter/barb...I usually roleplay the "faceman" of the group, so it would be nice to be singleminded, non-duplicitious "hulk-smash" type.
Jaisin
02-09-06, 03:02 PM *hums*
Whisper gnome, whisper gnome, can anybody say a whisper gnome?
*ends humming*

Rogue 3.

Or, if you can pick your domains, or make a big case for picking your domains choose War and Planning as a Human Cleric (Red Knight from FR will do as a deity)
Human Cleric 3, Cha of 15 will give you 3 + 2 turning attempts, +4 (Extra Turning) = 9, and that's all you need for persistifying goodness (Divine Favor, +2 to attack and damage, or Expiditious Retreat for an extra 30ft' movement)

1 (Planning Domain)- Extend Spell
1 (War Domain)- Martial Weapon Proficiency (Long Sword)
1 (War Domain)- Weapon Focus (Long Sword)
1 (1st)- Persistent Spell
1 (Human)- Extra Turning
3 (3rd)- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)

EDIT: That's 6 feats for 5 levels

spontaneous healing spells, another turn attempt at level 4 (+1 to CHA), a couple of bonus spells (Wis 14), NO NEED TO REST FOR SPELLS (often overlooked bonus of a Cleric), heavy armor and shield prof, domain spells. . . need I go on? Can't beat DMM at level 3 (unless of course you had a Charisma of 18, then you could use it at level 1) .

Half Plate Armor (700gp)
Heavy Steel Shield (20gp)
Masterwork Long Sword (315gp)
wand of cure light wounds (750gp, or 375gp if you can buy at reduced charges [25])

That leaves 715gp for scrolls and odds and ends (don't forget a holy symbol), or 1,090gp if you buy a 25 charge wand (at which point I'd recommend another like summon monster I for additional help).

With Str 12, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 15, you'll have:
AC- 10 + 7 (half-plate) + 2 (shield) = 19
Hp- 9 + (4.5+1) + (4.5+1) = 20
BAB- +2(BAB) +2(divine favor) +1(MW Long Sword) +1 (WF) +1 (Str) = +7
Dmg- 1d8+1(Str)+2(divine favor) = 1d8+3
Spells = 4/3+1/2+1

EDIT: You can also aid the party trap monkey by persistifying find traps, or be a look out wit detect thoughts. Versatility baby.

That's my 2 cents.

Happy Killing :dancin:
Thindelock
02-09-06, 04:14 PM Double M,
Too bad about the limitations. Augment Healing is in Complete Divine, so that's a no-go.

Whichever way you go, good luck.
DDogwood
02-09-06, 04:41 PM I just discovered that my DM wants to simplify the campaign by making our characters PHB only...

In addition to the Dwarf Cleric and the Half-Orc Barbarian (both excellent options), then, I have two suggestions:

A Halfling Druid with Mounted Combat and Skill Focus: Ride - you can ride your wolf/pony/riding dog into dungeons, and at level 3 your mount has an effective AC of 1d20+10. If you make it to level 5, you can always Wild Shape for melee goodness.

A Gnome Sorcerer focusing on Illusion spells - if you're only playing until level 3, Toughness is actually not a bad feat. Pick up Spell Focus: Illusion, and your Silent Images can be all sorts of fun.
hlnovice
02-09-06, 05:15 PM Or, if you can pick your domains, or make a big case for picking your domains choose War and Planning as a Human Cleric (Red Knight from FR will do as a deity)
Human Cleric 3, Cha of 15 will give you 3 + 2 turning attempts, +4 (Extra Turning) = 9, and that's all you need for persistifying goodness (Divine Favor, +2 to attack and damage, or Expiditious Retreat for an extra 30ft' movement)

1 (Planning Domain)- Extend Spell
1 (War Domain)- Martial Weapon Proficiency (Long Sword)
1 (War Domain)- Weapon Focus (Long Sword)
1 (1st)- Persistent Spell
1 (Human)- Extra Turning
3 (3rd)- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)

EDIT: That's 6 feats for 5 levels

spontaneous healing spells, another turn attempt at level 4 (+1 to CHA), a couple of bonus spells (Wis 14), NO NEED TO REST FOR SPELLS (often overlooked bonus of a Cleric), heavy armor and shield prof, domain spells. . . need I go on? Can't beat DMM at level 3 (unless of course you had a Charisma of 18, then you could use it at level 1) .

Happy Killing :dancin:

you could also go illumian (for flavor) and take sigil naenhoon to have about the same thing.
Dark_and_Stormy
02-09-06, 05:26 PM I'd go with your original instinct and stick with a Dwarf Rogue.
The combination of Stonecunning and Trapfinding is superb, especially when you max out that Search skill.
Any time you are entitled to a search check (like say, for traps) that are made of stone or metal, you do it on the fly. And there's a LOT of traps about stone and metal in the average dungeon. By comparison with, say, the amount of traps made out of chocolate, or pigs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Double M 02-09-06, 12:14 PM	We may be having a break in our regular campaign to do a simple dungeon crawl that may go a few weeks and probably won't go past 3, but could get up to 4 or 5 depending on how much crawling we do. I'm looking for a character using elite array stats (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) that could have decent survivability, good damage output, and fun playability. I have at my disposal 3.5 only--core; completes; ua; races of S, D, W; no level adjustment or base races that exist outside of these books (and no races from MM, except subraces of standards like Elf, Dwarf, etc). I'm honestly at a loss, I was thinking Rogue 3 might be pretty straightforward for all the skill goodness with a high dex and improved init. to get those flat-footed attacks with a decent sneak attack, but it seems kinda blah. A Power attacking, Half-Orc 2-handed Fighter 2/Barb 1 might put out a bunch of damage and have a lot of hitpoints, but also seems a bit blah. A 3-level 10 hp wizard sounds like he's begging to get ambushed and sneak attacked from behind... so I'm at a loss. Any thoughts are appreciated.
Thindelock 02-09-06, 12:56 PM	I'm a Dwarf fan. A dwarf cleric has the hit points, the armor, you can have decent strength, and you get healing, Speedbump-summoners, etc. The 4th level racial sub in RoS gives you warhammer proficiency and +2 damage with warhammer. Spellcasting with HP, high AC and a decent attack bonus are all good if you're looking for versatile survivability. A dwarf rogue is great for finding secret doors and traps. The con bonus offsets the d6 HD, and sneak attack is always nice. The problem, of course, is getting around behind your enemy to flank when you only move 20ft. Also, for classic dungeons, stonecunning and darkvision are very nice perks. But, that's just me. I like dwarves. Edit: Brought the post up to the standards of the English language, or at least closer. I blame sleep deprivation.
DDogwood 02-09-06, 01:12 PM	Spirit Shaman from CDiv might be worth a look - you get decent hit points, Druid spell access, 2nd-level spells by level 3, and a good number of spells/day. The hard part would be choosing which spells you want access to each day, because there are lots of good ones on the list.
Double M 02-09-06, 01:45 PM	Thindelock, I like the idea of the Dwarf Cleric, but I'm thinking that you only get 2 feats by 3rd level whereas a human fighter 2/?x would have 5 feats and with 5 feats you can have a heck of a lot of options. What feats would best fit into the Dwarf Cleric 1-3 build?
Thindelock 02-09-06, 02:34 PM	It honestly depends on your DM and your party, as well as your tastes. If feats are your concern, just choose your domains carefully. Look at the domain lists in Spell Compendium if you have access to that; many give feats. Thus, assuming the same race, a cleric 3 can have as many feats as a fighter 3, along with better will saves and spellcasting, in exchange for one Base Attack and an average of 2-3 more HP. If your DM will allow the persistant divine cheese, you can get that by 3rd-level if you pick the Planning domain (Extend from Planning, Persistant at 1, Divine Meta at 3). It leaves you virtually feat-less until 3rd, but even in low levels a Persistant buff spell is handy. For a low-level game, that's probably not the most optimized build, though. If you know your DM loves tossing some undead at the players, take feats that enhance your turning. Unless you take the Gold Dwarf variant from DMG or something similar, dwarves do suffer a CHA penalty that hurts turning. Disciple of the Sun and Empower Turning are good choices to help. If you want to play the super-healer, look at Augment Healing and the Healing domain. At first level, you're rolling 1d8+4 instead of 1d8+1 on CLW, which is very significant to PCs. Divine Spell Power can also help with this if your CHA is decent. Sacred Vow followed by Vow of Poverty is never a bad call, with the AC tip and all. If you're doing that, I'd take the 1st-level racial sub for Dwarves, which gives up turning, since VoP = no holy symbol = no turning. Also feat restrictions are your concern, go archery instead of melee. In low levels you're only 1 BAB behind the fighter/ranger, you can cast Magic Weapon and other buffs, and archery generally requires fewer feats to be decent at it. Point Blank Shot at first level, Precise Shot or Zen Archery at 3rd. If your DM is flexible and you come up with a background that would leave a dwarf worshipping Corellon Larethian and company (good luck), the Elf domain gives the Point-Blank Shot feat for free, freeing you up to take both Precise Shot and Zen Archery. Of course, you're using a crossbow, but using a light crossbow at low levels doesn't suck. You'll probably be standing still anyway so the reload time isn't a big deal, and the game's over before iterative attacks become an option for anyone. Just some thoughts. I admit to not being as adept or graceful as some long-time CO-folks. I'm relatively new here. Relatively little work goes into low-level build optimization around here, from what I've seen, so I'm trying to help as I can.
Double M 02-09-06, 02:59 PM	Thindelock, Thank you so much for your thorough and thoughtful assessment. Unfortunately after all of your good insights, I just discovered that my DM wants to simplify the campaign by making our characters PHB only...so back to the drawing board but the dwarf cleric healer may still be a viable option...assuming that I remember correctly and augment healing is in the PHB (I don't have my copy at the office)...perhaps its augment summoning that's PHB and healing is CD--hmm? Since the DM is being so restrictive, I have no qualms squeezing every ounce of power I can find out of a low-level PHB-only campaign, so anyone with advice on killer low-level feat combos, class skill synergy, etc, please feel free to add your thoughts to the thread. Of course, I could just go for pure hack-slash fun and play a dense half-orc fighter/barb...I usually roleplay the "faceman" of the group, so it would be nice to be singleminded, non-duplicitious "hulk-smash" type.
Jaisin 02-09-06, 03:02 PM	hums Whisper gnome, whisper gnome, can anybody say a whisper gnome? ends humming Rogue 3. Or, if you can pick your domains, or make a big case for picking your domains choose War and Planning as a Human Cleric (Red Knight from FR will do as a deity) Human Cleric 3, Cha of 15 will give you 3 + 2 turning attempts, +4 (Extra Turning) = 9, and that's all you need for persistifying goodness (Divine Favor, +2 to attack and damage, or Expiditious Retreat for an extra 30ft' movement) 1 (Planning Domain)- Extend Spell 1 (War Domain)- Martial Weapon Proficiency (Long Sword) 1 (War Domain)- Weapon Focus (Long Sword) 1 (1st)- Persistent Spell 1 (Human)- Extra Turning 3 (3rd)- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) EDIT: That's 6 feats for 5 levels spontaneous healing spells, another turn attempt at level 4 (+1 to CHA), a couple of bonus spells (Wis 14), NO NEED TO REST FOR SPELLS (often overlooked bonus of a Cleric), heavy armor and shield prof, domain spells. . . need I go on? Can't beat DMM at level 3 (unless of course you had a Charisma of 18, then you could use it at level 1) . Half Plate Armor (700gp) Heavy Steel Shield (20gp) Masterwork Long Sword (315gp) wand of cure light wounds (750gp, or 375gp if you can buy at reduced charges [25]) That leaves 715gp for scrolls and odds and ends (don't forget a holy symbol), or 1,090gp if you buy a 25 charge wand (at which point I'd recommend another like summon monster I for additional help). With Str 12, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 15, you'll have: AC- 10 + 7 (half-plate) + 2 (shield) = 19 Hp- 9 + (4.5+1) + (4.5+1) = 20 BAB- +2(BAB) +2(divine favor) +1(MW Long Sword) +1 (WF) +1 (Str) = +7 Dmg- 1d8+1(Str)+2(divine favor) = 1d8+3 Spells = 4/3+1/2+1 EDIT: You can also aid the party trap monkey by persistifying find traps, or be a look out wit detect thoughts. Versatility baby. That's my 2 cents. Happy Killing :dancin:
Thindelock 02-09-06, 04:14 PM	Double M, Too bad about the limitations. Augment Healing is in Complete Divine, so that's a no-go. Whichever way you go, good luck.
DDogwood 02-09-06, 04:41 PM	I just discovered that my DM wants to simplify the campaign by making our characters PHB only... In addition to the Dwarf Cleric and the Half-Orc Barbarian (both excellent options), then, I have two suggestions: A Halfling Druid with Mounted Combat and Skill Focus: Ride - you can ride your wolf/pony/riding dog into dungeons, and at level 3 your mount has an effective AC of 1d20+10. If you make it to level 5, you can always Wild Shape for melee goodness. A Gnome Sorcerer focusing on Illusion spells - if you're only playing until level 3, Toughness is actually not a bad feat. Pick up Spell Focus: Illusion, and your Silent Images can be all sorts of fun.
hlnovice 02-09-06, 05:15 PM	Or, if you can pick your domains, or make a big case for picking your domains choose War and Planning as a Human Cleric (Red Knight from FR will do as a deity) Human Cleric 3, Cha of 15 will give you 3 + 2 turning attempts, +4 (Extra Turning) = 9, and that's all you need for persistifying goodness (Divine Favor, +2 to attack and damage, or Expiditious Retreat for an extra 30ft' movement) 1 (Planning Domain)- Extend Spell 1 (War Domain)- Martial Weapon Proficiency (Long Sword) 1 (War Domain)- Weapon Focus (Long Sword) 1 (1st)- Persistent Spell 1 (Human)- Extra Turning 3 (3rd)- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) EDIT: That's 6 feats for 5 levels spontaneous healing spells, another turn attempt at level 4 (+1 to CHA), a couple of bonus spells (Wis 14), NO NEED TO REST FOR SPELLS (often overlooked bonus of a Cleric), heavy armor and shield prof, domain spells. . . need I go on? Can't beat DMM at level 3 (unless of course you had a Charisma of 18, then you could use it at level 1) . Happy Killing :dancin: you could also go illumian (for flavor) and take sigil naenhoon to have about the same thing.
Dark_and_Stormy 02-09-06, 05:26 PM	I'd go with your original instinct and stick with a Dwarf Rogue. The combination of Stonecunning and Trapfinding is superb, especially when you max out that Search skill. Any time you are entitled to a search check (like say, for traps) that are made of stone or metal, you do it on the fly. And there's a LOT of traps about stone and metal in the average dungeon. By comparison with, say, the amount of traps made out of chocolate, or pigs.