Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Salla 09-10-06, 07:12 PM	I recently read a thread where someone mentioned the Sorcerer 6/Force Missile Mage 5/Argent Savant 5/ Archmage 4 'Force Artillery' build, and I was intrigued. ;) They mentioned Arcane Thesis (Magic Missile), at 6th, but as I am unable to find the build on the boards (I tried the restricted search and came up blank several times), I was curious as to what people thought the best: 1. Feats were in general for the build, and 2. Force spells (other than Magic Missile) are good to take to meet the Argent Savant's requirements. For this game, anything WotC is permitted, but only non-campaign-specific books (no books specifically designated as FR or Eberron). Unearthed Arcana is allowed, and I have two flaws in mind already, so that gives more feat options. ;) Thanks in advance.
Brol_The_Mighty 09-10-06, 08:21 PM	In general? Energy Admixture and Twin Spell spring to mind
Tweedledope 09-10-06, 08:27 PM	I don't see the usefulness of energy admixture in a Force Missle Mage build...the idea of Magic Missle is that it is force damage which is near unbeatable...if you make it, say, acidic, things have resistances to acid (or fire, ice, etc.) so, doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose?
bluelighter0 09-10-06, 08:34 PM	I don't see the usefulness of energy admixture in a Force Missle Mage build... Except for the, you know, doubling of damage. Since the FMM gives you the option of elemental-typing your Magic Missile, you can admix it with Acid (Or Sonic, if your DM allows you to do so ala 3.0) to do more damage. Which, when you get down to it, is the point of a FMM build. ~Blue
Salla 09-10-06, 08:49 PM	I don't see the usefulness of energy admixture in a Force Missle Mage build...the idea of Magic Missle is that it is force damage which is near unbeatable...if you make it, say, acidic, things have resistances to acid (or fire, ice, etc.) so, doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose? The FMM has the ability to apply an elemental type to their Magic Missiles, but they still remain force effects as well. It's primarily for picking on obvious vulnerabilities, from what I can gather ("Fire Missiles for the Frost Giant"). I can't imagine randomly assigning energy damage to my missiles if I don't know what I'm fighting. :)
aelryinth 09-10-06, 09:49 PM	In addition, there are feats and spell effects that add to the power of your spell attacks if they have elemental inclinations. Acid sheathe is a spell that protects you, but if you cast acid spells while it is up, they do increased damage. There are feats for cold and fire which increase the potency of your hot/cold attacks, also. Basically, the motivator behind the thesis is to find a bunch of low power feats you can apply 'for free' to all your missile attacks, to ramp up the damage they cause without raising their spell level. On top of this, you can do things with Empower and Quicken and Twin to really deal a slamming salvo. Your biggest enemy is going to SR and the levels you give up taking the PRC's. make sure you can punch through SR! ===Aelryinth
Brol_The_Mighty 09-10-06, 10:01 PM	which would suggest taking Fortify spell...wonder how that interacts with Arcane Thesis....
Necromas 09-10-06, 10:12 PM	arcane thesis: magic missile
Brol_The_Mighty 09-10-06, 10:17 PM	of course Arcane Thesis: Magic Missile....but how does it apply to Fortify Spell?
Salla 09-10-06, 10:28 PM	of course Arcane Thesis: Magic Missile....but how does it apply to Fortify Spell? Fortify Spell is a +1 spell-level adjustment, so Arcane Thesis makes it free. I think I'd rather take Spell Penetration, though, because that gives the same bonus to all my spells (actually, I'm just gonna make sure I have some spells that ignore DR). Okay, so far I have: Energy Admixture, Empower Spell, Twin Spell ...
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 09-10-06, 11:14 PM	Ah Darn, I updated My old Build I need to Update it Again....(Sigh). I made a build awhile ago, updated it in a forgotten thread like this one and lost it, let me see if I can find it, and if I can, I'll give you a good build. P.S. I'll prove why Energy Admixture is Great in a Force Missle Mage Build ;) Edit: There's also another important question. Are you willing to be an Incantarix? And, does it matter whether it's more short-term powerful or more Long-term Powerful?
Brol_The_Mighty 09-10-06, 11:58 PM	well, no Fortify Spell isn't a +1, its like Heighten Spell, for every +1 lvl its increases, you get +2 to your Spell Pen.
Salla 09-11-06, 12:33 AM	well, no Fortify Spell isn't a +1, its like Heighten Spell, for every +1 lvl its increases, you get +2 to your Spell Pen. Ah, okay, misread it. My bad.
Salla 09-11-06, 12:38 AM	I'll prove why Energy Admixture is Great in a Force Missle Mage Build ;) Edit: There's also another important question. Are you willing to be an Incantarix? And, does it matter whether it's more short-term powerful or more Long-term Powerful? Oh, I think I know why Energy Admixture works in FMM builds, but by all means, more advice is always good. I'm still an amateur optimizer. I am completely unfamiliar with the Icantatrix, save from people mentioning it on the boards (usually with a 'run away' reaction), and that it's in an FR book (I think). I'm not entirely certain my caveat about 'no setting specific books' works anyway ... supposedly we're in a 'generic' D&D world, but the DM has already namedropped at least two Faerun NPCs (one of them Artemis Entreri or however you spell it), and continually refers to a large city as Waterdee-IMeanPortsmouth, and he's a pretty renowed FR fan (I have yet to see him play in a D&D game without asking if Drizz't is in it, even if we're in Eberron ...). As far as short-term vs long term ... not really.
NoldorForce 09-11-06, 12:47 AM	Incantatrix is from the Player's Guide to Faerun, and does all sorts of quirky stuff with metamagic. It's one of those things that almost (excepting chameleons) every devoted arcane spellcaster worth his salt should be a part of.
Salla 09-11-06, 01:04 AM	Incantatrix is from the Player's Guide to Faerun, and does all sorts of quirky stuff with metamagic. It's one of those things that almost (excepting chameleons) every devoted arcane spellcaster worth his salt should be a part of. Sounds twinky. I'll ask. :) Edit: Oh, SWEET, it's an excerpt on the website. :) Gonna be a bear to hit those KN: The Planes requirements as a Sorcerer ... Edit 2: While I am a powergamer, I still stick to flavor and characterization as well ... and the 'Trix isn't for this kid. Another character, certainly, but it doesn't really fit this one.
NoldorForce 09-11-06, 08:17 AM	That excerpt is from the 3.0 version, which was in Magic of Faerun. Quite a few changes were made since then, including the excising of all of the planar stuff--it's now merely a relic in the PRC's flavor text.
LiamDeclan 09-11-06, 03:05 PM	Magic Blooded Human Warmage6/FMM 5 w/2 flaws 1. Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Easy Metamagic Empower, Searing Spell 3. Fiery Spell 6. Arcane Thesis Magic Missle 9. Heighten Spell 12. Twin Spell 15. Easy Metamagic Twin 18. ??? Wiith Arcane Thesis, Searing, Empower and Fiery are all cast for free when you add the fire type to the Magic Missle. Learn the spell Raging Flames and your fire missles could do an extra +14 damage per volley for the Raging Flames duration. Plus your Int. modifier. Or you could just go Dragonborn Sun/Star Elf w/2 flaws Sorcerer 6/ FMM 5/ ??? 1. Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Easy Metamagic Empower 3. Twin Spell 6. Arcane Thesis Magic Missle 9. Practical Metamagic Twin 12. Easy Metamagic Twin Thats about 14 missles per round.
Salla 09-11-06, 08:53 PM	Magic Blooded Human Warmage6/FMM 5 w/2 flaws 1. Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Easy Metamagic Empower, Searing Spell 3. Fiery Spell 6. Arcane Thesis Magic Missle 9. Heighten Spell 12. Twin Spell 15. Easy Metamagic Twin 18. ??? Wiith Arcane Thesis, Searing, Empower and Fiery are all cast for free when you add the fire type to the Magic Missle. Learn the spell Raging Flames and your fire missles could do an extra +14 damage per volley for the Raging Flames duration. Plus your Int. modifier. Or you could just go Dragonborn Sun/Star Elf w/2 flaws Sorcerer 6/ FMM 5/ ??? 1. Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Easy Metamagic Empower 3. Twin Spell 6. Arcane Thesis Magic Missle 9. Practical Metamagic Twin 12. Easy Metamagic Twin Thats about 14 missles per round. I don't know where half of that stuff came from. :) Easy Metamagic? Practical Metamagic? Searing Spell? Fiery Spell? Never heard of any of these. :)
NoldorForce 09-11-06, 09:31 PM	Easy Metamagic is, I believe, something from Dragon. Practical Metamagic is from Races of the Dragon, requires the dragonblood subtype, and reduces the slot adjustment on a metamagic feat specified when PM is taken. The book also contains Accelerated Metamagic, which removes the time adjustment for a specified metamagic feat. Useful for quickening stuff with a spontaneous caster, if you can swing the dragonblood subtype. Easy Metamagic might do the same thing. I don't know where the rest is from.
Salla 09-11-06, 09:38 PM	Easy Metamagic is, I believe, something from Dragon. Practical Metamagic is from Races of the Dragon, requires the dragonblood subtype, and reduces the slot adjustment on a metamagic feat specified when PM is taken. The book also contains Accelerated Metamagic, which removes the time adjustment for a specified metamagic feat. Useful for quickening stuff with a spontaneous caster, if you can swing the dragonblood subtype. Easy Metamagic might do the same thing. I don't know where the rest is from. I'm using the PHB II Metamagic Master feature, so increased casting times for metamagic aren't a problem. ;) How's Fell Drain work for this sort of thing, anybody tried it?
ChristopherGroves 09-11-06, 09:56 PM	Fell Weaken is pretty damn spiffy with a +1 level adjustment. Hit a bunch of folks and drop their strength by 4. Wee!
Osedox 09-11-06, 10:08 PM	It can only effect a single target per casting of a Fell drained spell. So it is still good, but no 14 negative levels per round to one guy.
Salla 09-11-06, 10:25 PM	It can only effect a single target per casting of a Fell drained spell. So it is still good, but no 14 negative levels per round to one guy. I figured that qualified under 'too good to be true', but it hasn't been officially errata'd yet. But if I spread them out amongst multiple targets, each one gets a negative level ... could be decent for crowd control.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 09-11-06, 10:40 PM	Salla, just what books do you have access to? I can post the most optimal build, but it does little good if you can't use it.
Phoenix00 09-11-06, 10:58 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=603708 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=420477 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=397645 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=372044 Also look up Chain Spell from the Spell Compedium and this upgraded version of magic missle below http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20020809a
Salla 09-11-06, 11:07 PM	Salla, just what books do you have access to? I can post the most optimal build, but it does little good if you can't use it. (Deep breath) The 3 cores The Completes (incl Psionic) XPH PHB II Magic of Incarnum Races of the Wild, Destiny Libris Mortis Book of Exalted Deeds/Vile Darkness Oriental Adventures Field Folio Monster Manual II, III All Eberron books, though they (theoretically) aren't applicable to the game.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 09-12-06, 12:05 AM	Magic Missle MetaMonster *updated* Progression: Wizard5/Icantarix1/Force Missle Mage3/Icantarix2-10/Force Missle Mage4-5 Race:Human (or one with a bonus feat) Feat Progression 1: Combat Casting, Fiery Spell 3: Iron Will 5: Fell Drain 6: Arcane Thesis:Magic Missle, Quicken Spell 9: Searing Spell 12:Empower Spell, Maximize Spell 15:Energy Sub:Fire, Energy Admixture:Fire 18:Repeat Spell, *Free Feat* Incantarix progression is delayed so that we can get Energy Missle: which adds an energy descriptor to the spell which qualifies it for Energy Subsitution and Energy Admixture Overpowering Missle: which lets magic missle bypass shield Energy Substitution: Fire is used because of the Feat Firey spell which adds 1 damage to every spell with the Fire Descriptor. So we're going to cast a Fiery Quickened Fell Drained, Energy Substituted Fire, Energy Admixtured Fre, Empowered, Maximized, Twinned, Repeated Magic Missle which takes up a Magic Missle (1) 0+2+0+0+2+0+1+2+1= 9th level slot. Take away quickened and it's a Level 7 slot. So that would be 7 missles x5(1d4+1 maximized) =35+17 Empowered (Avg) damage is or 52 then doubled effectively for Admixture so that's 104 then doubled effectively for twin spell so that's 208 Fire damage. It started out at 7 dice, 10 dice empowered, 20 Admixed, 40 twinned, So fiery spell adds 40 damage for a total damage of 248! Remember of course, that this spell ignores fire resistance, and fire immune creatures take half damage, Every Person hit by a missle takes 2 negative levels, also, this spell happens again the next round, and you're free to cast this as your non-quickened spell. So, you're capable of doing 496 damage on the first turn, and 992 damage on the second. another nice benefit is that a a Searing, Fiery, Fell Drained, Energy Substition:Fire, Empowered Magic Missle for a Nice Level One Slot. which does 7d4+7+(7d4+7/2) +10 damage or 47 (Avg) and of course every individual hit takes a negative level if hit. Now of course, this build focuses on damage. Sorcerors get gimped in this regard since they are forced to drop a level in Force Missle Mage. Other things to consider: Double Wand Wielder may be able to achieve some good results, Consider making Quickened Wands, using two of them, and then using two regular wands during your turn. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=507714 I recently Discovered Disposable_Hero's Thread on Psycarnum Metamagic. I haven't had time to think about it much, but there may be something to this.
Tweedledope 09-12-06, 12:17 AM	I never see much love for the Argent Savant around here? Any particular reason why? Aside from the FMM, it's the only Force Focused caster around.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 09-12-06, 12:32 AM	Because you net more damage with Twin Spell, Energy Admixture, Repeat Spell, and Quicken Spell. If Arcane Thesis didn't exist, it might be a slighty different story. Edit: Actually, you can replace the last level with Argent Savant with Force Missle Mage, and forgo getting the 7th missle. You will do slightly more damage but only have 6 missles. It's a matter of taste, but I like the extra missle for extra targets to Fell Drain as well as the fact that you lose another caster level is annoying.
Salla 09-12-06, 12:33 AM	I never see much love for the Argent Savant around here? Any particular reason why? Aside from the FMM, it's the only Force Focused caster around. Actually, I looked it over more closely the other night, and save for Force Specialization and perhaps the extra bonus to Force-based defenses ... it's not that hot. I'll ask the DM about the Incantatrix.
Tweedledope 09-12-06, 12:36 AM	Well, I feel that Force Specialization + Warmage is fairly decent...not Arcane Thesis decent but, until errata, it's pretty great IMHO.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 09-12-06, 12:45 AM	Warmage is a lot of fun to play at first level, especially if you're a Sun Elf, or something that can begin play with 20 Int. :D With Argent Savant, remember that you can enter that class at a minimum of 10th level, or if a Warmage at a minimum of 11th. You could forgo Incantarix Progression in the middle to take one level, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Evandariel 09-12-06, 12:49 AM	I was under the impression arcane thesis couldn't lower a metamagic feat below a +1 level adjustment? No?
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 09-12-06, 01:04 AM	Well, luckily that question was answered long ago by Custserv. Yes, indeed, it lowers the metamagic Slot modifier by each metamagic feat applied to the spell to a minimum of +0 :)
Evandariel 09-12-06, 05:30 PM	That's awesome. Next question. Does the reduction in spell level kick in after all adjustments are applied (making a +7 meta spell with three different feats a +6), or to each separate metamagic feat applied? I know you said to each metamagic feat applied, but... I have this nagging most DMs would say a maximized quickened fireball using this feat would be +6 (4+3-1) rather than +5 (4-1+3-1), since it says "the enhanced spell uses a slot one level lower than normal" rather than "the metamagic feat costs one level less than normal"....
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 09-12-06, 06:38 PM	Yes, you indeed get to choose when "it kicks in", thus you can choose to apply it last :D
Salla 09-15-06, 09:20 PM	Okay ... that's a great feat and PrC collection. Many thanks. Now, other than the ubiquitous Magic Missile and the SR-defeating Orb of Force, what are good Force spells? I'm kind of envisioning the character as a 'Force Master' at this point, no Star Wars reference intended.
BoDiddilly 09-15-06, 09:43 PM	Ive seen debate ove arcane thesis and the Incantrix build befor so i just want to through this out there You do realize that the more conservative appoach is how it's written? The feat itself says absolutely nothing about modifying the amount by which metamagic feats adjust the spell level. It says that if you prepare that spell modified by a metamagic feat, the spell takes up a slot one level lower than it normally does. All the metamagic feats would apply their adjustments as usual, and then, essentially, Arcane Thesis is an additional metamagic feat that has a -1 spell level adjustment and no other effects. Today 02:09 AM also the Easy metamagic feat decrease the level adjustment of one metamagic feat by one min one. but Arcane thesis has no minimum so you could say magic missle(w/arcane thesis) + empowerment(w/easy metamagic) = empowered magic missle w/no slot adjustment.
Electricall 11-23-06, 11:16 PM	Bill Bisco... Doesn't Globe of Invulnerability protect against Magic Missile? Or does MM pass through cuz it's higher level when metamagiced? IIRC, it doesn't, as it's still a 1st level spell. If so, your build would be greatly weakened. Of course, all you need is a dispel of some kind, but still.
Salla 11-23-06, 11:30 PM	Bill Bisco... Doesn't Globe of Invulnerability protect against Magic Missile? Or does MM pass through cuz it's higher level when metamagiced? IIRC, it doesn't, as it's still a 1st level spell. If so, your build would be greatly weakened. Of course, all you need is a dispel of some kind, but still. Wow, I can't believe this thread resurfaced. :) Unless the missile is Heightened, it's still a 1st level spell and still stopped by the Globe, yes. I intend to have 'backup' spells for this unlikely* eventuality. *I say unlikely due to the DM's style, which usually involve melee bruisers at all levels and a notable lack of casters/manifesters among opponents, and those few we run into will simply be blasters. In short, there's next to no chance we will ever encounter a hostile Globe of Invulnerability. :)
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-25-06, 02:58 PM	Bill Bisco... Doesn't Globe of Invulnerability protect against Magic Missile? Or does MM pass through cuz it's higher level when metamagiced? IIRC, it doesn't, as it's still a 1st level spell. If so, your build would be greatly weakened. Of course, all you need is a dispel of some kind, but still. Yes it does. Also, anything that makes you immune to force also makes you immune to magic missle. Also, although its annoying, technically Nightshield from Spell Compendium makes you immune to magic missle. So yes, there are plenty of ways to counter it. However, I see threads all the time discuss how high can you get magic missle damage up, and I thought it pertinent to show a build which really shows how high of damage that you can get. If you want to aim for high damage and very few ways to counter it, I suggest you take a look at the Arcane Thesis Compendium in my sig, and look up my Orb of Fire builds. :)
Alennox 11-25-06, 09:52 PM	Oh God... I'm about to annouce how n00b I am... Where can I find both the FMM and the Easy Metamagic feat?
Salla 11-26-06, 01:36 AM	Oh God... I'm about to annouce how n00b I am... Where can I find both the FMM and the Easy Metamagic feat? FMM was in Dragon Magazine, and I believe it was reprinted in the Dragon Compendium. Easy Metamagic, I THINK, is in the Draconomicon or Races of the Dragon ... I own neither.