Post/Author/DateTime	Post
draegl0th 11-02-03, 01:40 AM	I am planning to play a Magic-Blooded Half-Nymph (Base creature Star Elf). I gain a net bonus of: +8Cha +2Int +2Dex -2Con and several other miscellaneous special abilities. I'm trying to discover the best possible classes for a character like this. Several ideas come to mind: 1) Iajitsu Master. Crazy damage dealer, period. 2) Sorcerer. High DC and bonus spells, but the +1~+2 LA really hurts. 3) Bard. Best party face! I'm aiming for epic level (30lvl+), so please keep that in mind. Thank you for your help! :angel:
Kenkai 11-02-03, 01:41 AM	make sure you take 2 levels of holy liberator, or blackguard, orpaladin. or whatever lets you add your charisma to other things. thats always nice.
draegl0th 11-02-03, 01:43 AM	Thanks. Divine Grace would be my top priority :) Speaking of Blackguards, I remember seeing 3 new variations of Blackguard in Dragon #312. They're all base classes :eek:
Kenkai 11-02-03, 01:44 AM	sweet. btw i think you can only add magic-blooded to a standard race from the phb. meaing no sub-race as in star elf, and no other race from other sources. i reserve the right to be wrong though ;)
draegl0th 11-02-03, 01:46 AM	Oh. That's no good :( But since I (unintentionally) "tricked" my DM into allowing that, I'll leave it as is.
Kenkai 11-02-03, 02:02 AM	ROFLMAO. you do that :smirk: :angel:
Jindl 11-02-03, 02:06 AM	I don't know if you can use the miniatures handbook, but the marshall is a great cha based class. Get 13 ranks in KS religion and go contemplative with the mysticism domain (should give you divine grace with one level, i think.) By the time you're epic your diplomacy should reach +50 or more... and then you can make people Fanatic (check the epic handbook on this... its pretty cool.) Hope this helps. -Jindl
draegl0th 11-02-03, 02:08 AM	Thanks. Epic Diplomacy and Bluffs are crazy. Fanatic Attitude and non-magical Suggestions :) Contemplative is nice, since it gives both Divine Grace and Slippery mind. I don't know which character concept it would fit better though.
goblinhero 11-02-03, 02:41 AM	as you are using Dragon material, I would be remiss if I didn't mention epic feat: Battle Dance (Dragon #297) would work best with a bard it would synergize very nicely with a melee chr based build not really a sorc feat though
draegl0th 11-02-03, 02:42 AM	I'm trying to order #297 (along with 300, 303, 311) from pazio.com :) Thanks for the input!
Endarire 11-02-03, 03:10 AM	You could be a grand Rogue face man, but such would likely be weaker than a Sorcerer or Bard.. -EE
draegl0th 11-02-03, 03:12 AM	I think a Bard is a better party face than a Rogue :)
Grim Sage 11-02-03, 05:58 AM	i'm playing pretty much the same (just plain half-human/half-nymph), and am going Bard... What stats do you use for Half-Nymph? We just took half-fey and left out the 'fly' ability; your half-nymph seemingly gives +4 cha, +2 dex, +2 int and +2 wis instead of +4 cha, +2 dex, +2 wis, -2 con
Ranthanas 11-02-03, 07:25 AM	Don't bother with paladin variants. One level of Contemplative for the Mysticism domain will do what two for Divine Grace will (and then some). Costs you a caster level, but gains you a good domain and ability to use clerical items. To be honest, I'd chose a Bard variant (using Dragon #311 Bard PrCs if possible). I'd go contemplative after going epic (get the BAB to +16...) The places you can actually use Cha are to saves (Contemplative, Paladin Variants), to AC (Arcane Duelist, Mystic Wanderer) and Damage (Turning/Divine Might) I'd also be tempted to seriously break combats by grabbing seven levels in Arcane Duelist and wielding a scythe with 3.5 Power Attack. (Power Attack + 3 levels in Arcane Duelist is bad enough but when you get to arbitrarily increase the threat range of the scythe seven times a day, things just get silly)
Davus Antonius 11-02-03, 12:29 PM	What issue of Dragon is magic-blooded in?
draegl0th 11-02-03, 03:43 PM	Grim Sage, the -2 to Con is from my base creature(Star Elf) :) Can you show me how you built your Half-Nymph Bard? Ranthanas, I was only meant to take three levels in despot (Slippery Mind, Divine Drace, Smite, Aura of Fear, Immune to Charm), these Blackguard-variant levels are actually pretty good to qualify for Iajitsu Master. Arcane Duelist mecurial greatsword wielder, you mean? ;) Davus, Magic-Blooded is from #306
Kenkai 11-02-03, 03:49 PM	www.pazio.com doesn't seem to exist, i typed it in and it took me to msn search... and i was really hoping to order some back issues :(
draegl0th 11-02-03, 03:52 PM	Oh, it's PAIZO (http://www.paizo.com) , my bad. Any suggestions on playing a bard? :)
Hanniball 11-02-03, 03:57 PM	its paizo.com are you looking for melee or caster or utility. i could post a large number of builds focused on charisma but i'd prefer you to pick a type so we can go from there.
Kenkai 11-02-03, 03:59 PM	i can't find where to get back issues...got a direct link to the back issues? :bigeyes: nevermind i found it. although i'm wondering why 310 isn't on the list. i think i'll order by phone cause i'm not sure what to put in an order by email :rolleyes:
Lord_of_the_Seven_Towers 11-02-03, 04:16 PM	Check out the Heart Warder PrC from Faiths and Pantheons. +7 BaB full spell casting progression for either arcane or divine (sorcerer!) and +1 charisma every other level! This is an inherent bonus however and so won't stack with the tome.
Jeryg 11-02-03, 07:08 PM	if you're going divine caster, you should consider taking a level of mystic wanderer... charisma bonus to AC (cant wear armor though) personnaly, with a very high charisma character, i would jump on the opportunity to build a cleric with : - family domain (from FRCS) : a charisma number of creatures get +4 dodge bonus for 1 round/level. - a mystic wanderer level to get char bonus to AC - power attack + Divine Might combo : charisma bonus to damage - a level of contemplative : divine grace for free with the right domain. - others thing i can't think of now...
draegl0th 11-02-03, 07:55 PM	Hanniball, I would like to see them all :blush: but if I can only choose one, I'd like to see a caster build. Thanks alot! Lord_of_the_seven_towers, I think you misunderstood my request. I meant for a build that best utilizes high charisma, not the other way around. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough ;) Jeryg, I think Family Domain is a nice addition to a support cleric, thanks for the information! Only if my party members would all take leadership... :P
Lord_of_the_Seven_Towers 11-03-03, 01:01 PM	Ok what about a sorcerer (i mean you did just!ask for a pellatebuild) that has a high charisma, that way you would have high DCs and lots of spells per day. That's a good use of charisma. And seeing as after level 1 the sorcerer doesn't get a lot so you might want to branch out to taking a prestige class. So why not try haeart warder. It gives you full spellcasting and and a good BaB handy for ranged touch attcks etc. Plus you get +1 charisma every other level. So this gives you a high chairsma to make use of. That was my point, that you could build a spellcastin character, and obviously for that you would be looking at sorcerer/bard/paladin, amongst which the sorcerer is probably best for spells. But if you want to build a character that uses a high charisma what better way that to build a character with a high charisma, like sorcerer5 (ish)/heart warder 9/X. ;) clear?
Lord Arkhaven 11-03-03, 03:30 PM	Go for the Charisma tossed salad! Paladin 2/Sorceror 4/Strong Soul 4/Mystic Theurge 10 Strong Soul is a spontaneous divine caster that uses Charisma from Miniatures Handbook. They get all good saves so your saves over all (with Divine Grace) are going to be good. While not particularly powerful I think this build would be fun.
draegl0th 11-03-03, 04:54 PM	Lord Arkhaven, I don't think I could get the Miniatures Handbook any time soon :P Lord_of_the_Seven_Towers, Heartwarder is very feat intensive, and there's no way you can qualify for it at Sorcerer5. The better Sorcerer PrC to utilize Charisma IMO is Virtuoso.
wtfpwned 11-04-03, 01:45 AM	I built a cleric/sorcerer with a really high charisma, the build was a lvl 20 one, and the classes I had used in there was at least one lvl of contemplative to get get mystic domain <cha to saves> mystic wanderer to get Cha to AC.
foxylady 11-04-03, 03:47 AM	Sorcerer 4/Shugenja 4/Mystic Theurge 10 is quite munchy.
baoban sith 11-04-03, 11:47 AM	sorcerer4/shugenja2/MotAO2(to shu)/MT2/Mystic Wanderer1/Contemplative1/MT to 10 is more so.
Lord_of_the_Seven_Towers 11-04-03, 12:22 PM	yeah to be fair i do agree with you, the heart warder does not lend itself well to optimisation, what with it's main abilties being +5 bonus to charisma, which you can get just by casting wish 5 times and giving up a little exp. Plus those feats are a pain, especially as three are non-spell casting orientated. Anyway good luck with the Cha build.
Jindl 11-04-03, 12:40 PM	With that +1~2 LA, any spellcaster will have trouble with spell resistance. That's why I suggest taking a level of Marshall - with the minor aura that allows you to add your Cha bonus to spell penetration checks! A first level marshall gets 2 minor auras (only use one at a time), so I would suggest getting the spell penetration one and either the one that adds to a single kind of save, or the one that adds to your wis based skills (for spot/listen when out of combat). It's worth giving up a caster level (especially if you wait til you are epic to take the first level in marshall). Another build is - Marshall1/Sor6/EK10/ACM1 - Epic - ACM 2-5/Divine Oracle 2/etc. I know you can't use the miniatures handbook anytime soon, but the marshall is perhaps THE best Cha based class... -Jindl
MikeN 11-04-03, 08:28 PM	For spell versatility it's hard to beat the Shugenja/Sorcerer/Virtuoso/Mystic Wanderer/Contemplative/Mystic Theurge design... LordShade had a "cha to everything" build around somewhere too...
Ivarrius 11-04-03, 08:40 PM	Originally posted by Ranthanas I'd also be tempted to seriously break combats by grabbing seven levels in Arcane Duelist and wielding a scythe with 3.5 Power Attack. (Power Attack + 3 levels in Arcane Duelist is bad enough but when you get to arbitrarily increase the threat range of the scythe seven times a day, things just get silly) I know it doesn't specifically say so in the AD description, but that is a pretty dodgy view of the rules. A prereq for AD is weapon proficiency in either rapier, short sword, dagger, or any variation of these weapons as given in Sword and Fist. Which leads me to believe, though I cannot be sure, that the intention was for one of the 'Chosen weapons' to be as such. Just my own opinion, but I know my DM would probably be leaning towards the same decision.
draegl0th 11-05-03, 12:44 AM	It seems most of us agree that Shugenja/Sorcerer is the best combination for a Cha-based Spellcaster build :) I think Jindl has a very good point. While this character will lose yet another caster level, the dip would save up to three feats. At higher levels, this character would easily have a +12 modifer to Charisma (or more), and even Epic Spell Penetration would give a "mere" +6 to caster level checks. This build would probably have an insane amount of spells per day. Probably take Automatic Quicken Spell / Multispell all the way. Can anyone please give a detailed breakdown of a Shugenja/Sorcerer? I don't remember ever seeing that around.
catharz 11-05-03, 05:08 AM	Well, here is my favorite charisma-based spellcaster build (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1698791#post1698791) However, it is more of a character than a build, and you may have trouble getting it past your DM ;)
draegl0th 11-05-03, 05:29 AM	Sweet. Where can I find Fiend Slayer and Eldritch Master? Is movanic deva based on the creature? That would be a huge ECL. Edit: Nevermind, you mean an aasimar :)
Ranthanas 11-05-03, 07:53 AM	Originally posted by Ivarrius I know it doesn't specifically say so in the AD description, but that is a pretty dodgy view of the rules. A prereq for AD is weapon proficiency in either rapier, short sword, dagger, or any variation of these weapons as given in Sword and Fist. Which leads me to believe, though I cannot be sure, that the intention was for one of the 'Chosen weapons' to be as such. Just my own opinion, but I know my DM would probably be leaning towards the same decision. This is the Character Optimisation forum, and I'd agree with your DM in practice (I'd also alow longswords, kukris and a couple of other weapons but nothing two handed or non-swordlike)
baoban sith 11-05-03, 02:59 PM	Originally posted by draegl0th Can anyone please give a detailed breakdown of a Shugenja/Sorcerer? I don't remember ever seeing that around. It'd be pretty straight forward. The only issues are whether you want shugenja (or it appears strong soul, which may certainly be cooler, or at least less centered on a setting) and sorcerer for 4 levels each, or do you want to squeeze in a few PrC levels. You could fit in up to three from a class that doesn't require more than 2nd level spells (Like virtuoso or mage of the arcane order). Also, what classes do you want for your remaining 2 available levels in a 20 level build. The general consensus is contemplative and mystic wanderer for the cha to saves and ac, although it does force a divine focus on the character. Subbing one of the two levels in pre-epic for a level of marshal can be a good idea. Marshal is a really good way to get some knowledge skill reqs out of the way.
MikeN 11-05-03, 09:31 PM	The basic design is Shugenja4/Sorcerer4/Mystic Theurge10/Contemplative1/Mystic Wanderer1 -- you get 8th level divine (shugenja) spells and 7th level arcane spells...I was the first one to post and promote the build... LordShade's version of my build is Shugenja4/Sorcerer2/Virtuoso2/MT10/Cont1/MW1 which requires cosmopolitan: perform (or versatile from Rokugan sourcebook) but is slightly stronger as you get more skill points, bardic music, and are an even better party-helper. The other way to do it is with Mage of the Arcane Order, but it's more feat-intensive and needs a 20 on fast-talk with some DM's... __________ All in all, if it's not the best support character in the game, it's pretty close...
Kenkai 11-05-03, 09:45 PM	for the power attack + dexterous attack combo to basically add your BAB to your damage when using a 2 handed weapon i'd rather us a falchion and get the improved critical feat. technically 2d4 damage is better then then 1d8 because its guarenteed at least 2 instead of 1 and the threat range when combined with false keeness becomes 12-20/x2. bard1/fighter6/arcane duelist 7/weapon master 7 with a greatsword, falchion, or scythe. greatsword ends up with a threat range of 13-20/x2, falchion is around 10-20/x2 and scythe would be 15-20/x4. weapon master lets you increase the multiply 3 times per day by 6th level so a scythe could be 15-20/x5. at that level your BAB is 16/11/6/1 now subract 16 from all attacks to give the 2-handed weapon a +32 damage. then use dexterious attack and subtract 16 of that (or less if you can hit easily) and end up with +16 damage at no loss of base attack bonus. with 20 strength and using a scythe thats a minimum 100+ damage in one hit. thats pretty silly :cool: of course its less iwth the others but i still think the minimum damage is over 50 ;) i'd probably end up preferring the greatsword but thats me. (if i posted anything illegal tell me and i'll edit). and correct me if i'm wrong with anything...or everything :rolleyes: btw i'm fairly certain that this template only works with a human (or certain kind of hafling) because you are lacking a feat at some point without it. of course you'd pick magic-blooded human or else it doesn't make sense...i mean it IS a charisma based build ;)
draegl0th 11-06-03, 12:07 AM	I built this with epic in mind :) Shugenja/Sorcerer/MoTAO/MT/Contemplative/Mystic Wanderer 01 Shu Spellcasting Prodigy 02 Shu 03 Sor Extend Spell 04 Sor 05 Sor 06 Sor Cooperative Spell 07 Moa 08 Moa Maximize Spell 09 MT Iron Will 10 MT 11 MT 12 MT Persistent Spell 13 MT 14 MT 15 MT Quicken Spell 16 MT 17 MT 18 MT Skill Focus: Spellcraft 19 Mys 20 Con I think I will focus on Divine Spellcasting, since taking both up to 20th level would be rather cumbersome especially now Epic MT only grants spellcasting level to one class. What do you guys think? I'm confident that this build will continue to be powerful in epic levels, Automatic Quicken Spell/Multispell combined with the sheer number spells per day is more broken than you imagine ;)
baoban sith 11-06-03, 10:47 AM	My guess is I'm the only one who thinks people staking claims on builds is pretty funny.
MikeN 11-08-03, 06:47 PM	You're missing a feat, draegl0th...unless I'm not remembering right, you need to be able to prepare spells like a wizard (or a sorc/bard with a certain feat I'm blanking on the name of) in order to qualify for MotAO. _____________ Here's my epic design :D Shug4/Sorc2/Virt2+/MW1+/Cont6+/MT10/Mindbender1/Divine Disciple1/Alienist1/Thaumaturgist5+/Archmage5+ Domains: Mysticism, War, and Summoning, lots of spontaneous magic and other good stuff...and if high enough other things can be thrown in too... <of course you realize that epic levels 30+ can get pretty ridiculous no matter what you do with a character, right?>
draegl0th 11-08-03, 06:54 PM	Yes, I think I forgot about Arcane Preparation. I'll simply pick Virtuoso over MoTAO.