Best cohort for thaumaturgist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best cohort for thaumaturgist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lamenterm
10-27-06, 10:42 PM Im making a level 15 thaumaturgist,cleric and i am wondering which outside is the best for his 5th level class skill.

I have almost all books available in 3.5 except forgotten realms ones.
X-Codes
10-27-06, 11:09 PM NONE of them. Read the ability!

It uses the ECL of the creature, not the HD or CR. Combined with the level giving exactly nothing else of value, and with this cohort taking the place of a Leadership cohort, it's a CRAP level.

Unless you can convince your DM that you can get a Planar Cohort of a low ECL race with class levels like an Aasimar, Tiefling, Genasi, Fey'ri, etc. then the best one is probably a Hound Archon Paladin 1, and thats pretty bad at ECL 15. Seriously, just take Leadership.
Lamenterm
10-28-06, 12:08 AM hmm i am probably missunderstanding ecl. whats determines ecl? because in the dmg it says hd + level adjustment (at least in the example for the class ability), which means a leonal guardinal with 12 hd and no level adjustment would work just fine.
runestar
10-28-06, 07:13 AM hmm i am probably missunderstanding ecl. whats determines ecl? because in the dmg it says hd + level adjustment (at least in the example for the class ability), which means a leonal guardinal with 12 hd and no level adjustment would work just fine.
LA of "-" is not the same as LA+0, the former simply means that no LA is provided as it is not deemed appropriate for use as a PC. You could try assigning a LA to it, but I can assure you that it definitely won't be +0.

That said, yeah, X-Codes pretty much hit the nail on the head - outsiders in general get too crippling LAs to be considered as viable cohorts or PCs. What alignment is your cleric?

Lowest ECL I can think of is a dretch(ECL4) with class lvs...though it is quite pathetic...:(
X-Codes
10-28-06, 08:00 AM LA of "-" is not the same as LA+0, the former simply means that no LA is provided as it is not deemed appropriate for use as a PC. You could try assigning a LA to it, but I can assure you that it definitely won't be +0.
Actually, an LA of "-" doesn't actually mean "Unfit for character play." It could also mean that it has an ECL (HD + LA) over 20, and the Monster Manual does not support any Epic material (and, thusly, ignores it completely).

Regardless, most Outsiders with 10 or more HD have ECLs well over 20. If you absolutely have to have a Planar Cohort, theres really only one viable option I can think of, and it's just barely viable:

Succubus Blackguard. A natural party face and a fearsome melee presence with it's whopping +16 racial bonus to Charisma, greatly augmenting it's saving throws and damage (with Divine Power). If there were more reliable ways to get charisma added to attack rolls, then this character would be almost undefeatable as far as melee combat goes.
The_Shaman
10-29-06, 12:13 PM First, the ally must be an elemental or outsider. Half-celestials and half-fiends are outsiders, so anything that has 4+ intelligence can be taken as a companion. On the downside, the Half-X gives a hefty +4 bump to the LA. As for any "real" outsiders: it really depends on what the group needs. Outsiders, generally, have great monster levels, but it's the LA that hits them. Ironically, my best choice would not be an outsider at all, but an elemental. Savage species placed the LA on medium elementals around +5, so they're not good mounts, but mephits can be pretty useful.

I've thought about a mephit sorcerer or bard. They have a good charisma, and a breath weapon usable as often as a dragon. I'd recommend an air or ice mephit - decent spell-like abilities, good flight speed, and good dexterity (which for a mephit imo beats strength). Plus, an air mephit with a flute looks cool, I think. The ice mephit has a better breath weapon, but poorer spell-like abilities. Bard is a good class, imo, because it's a class in which you could help the group even with a few levels, while it's often left out because it tends to be a jack-of-all-trades.

Other good (imo) ideas are, in a relative order of level required:
Imp / quasit rogue (since they can be obtained as familiars I suppose the LA isn't larger than +1)
Yeth hound ranger or barbarian
Bralani eladrin as a bodyguard/helper
Xill with ranger levels and multiattack ranger feats
Lillend bard (has inbuilt bard levels that offset the LA),
A succubus bard can also be insane - look at the charisma and imagine what bards can do with it :D
Erynnies ranger (archer path, they have a ton of archer feats anyway)
Rakshasa Sorcerer (inbuilt sorc levels, plus hefty DR, supernatural detect thoughts and serious SR, build would be Sorc 1 / Eldritch Knight. The EK is there to better use the natural attacks, you meet the prerequisites from the beginning but 1 sorc level can net him a familiar)
Couatl Sorcerer (again inbuilt sorc/EK levels here, it also has good flight, etherial jaunt at will, and also has perhaps the most potent disabling poison I've seen)

It's a pity blink dogs aren't outsiders. With relatively low LA and decent abilities (i.e. dimension door) they could be a handy critter to have. However, the half-celestial template is a bit too much for them imo.
PhaedrusXY
10-29-06, 12:48 PM Something with the lowest LA possible plus class levels (especially Fiend of Possession, if it fits your character and is allowed).
ChrisAsmadi
10-29-06, 12:52 PM Neraphs are LA+0 outsiders. They, along with some fairly low LA(+1 or +2) Outsiders are inside the Planar Handbook.
The_Shaman
10-29-06, 04:55 PM Note: sorry, a lvl 15 thaumaturgist won't be able to have a couatl cohort. Anyway, I don't have the planar handbook, but anything with a low LA could be useful, especially if it has a high score for fighting or spellcasting.
Ikeren
10-29-06, 08:38 PM Use the lesser aasimar or lesser tiefling found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

Don't continue with their progression (unless you can get Unearthed Arcana's LA buyoff for the rest of their progression). The lesser Aasimar makes good anything, the tiefling has -2 charisma which means, perhaps little, perhaps a lot, depending on how your cohort is stated.

Then give them class levels however you like - casters, melee's, gish's, crafters.
Auldar
10-29-06, 10:29 PM If you need an item factory, you could grab the Midgard Dwarf from Frostburn - I think he has an ECL of 12 (8HD), and can make you all the rings, wonderous items, and arms and armor you could ever want, without needing to cast the spells in question.

You'd have to use PHBII web enhancement rules to transfer XP to him though for the item creation costs.
runestar
10-29-06, 11:13 PM Use the lesser aasimar or lesser tiefling found here:
They aren't outsiders, so you won't be able to summon them via planar ally and bind them as a cohort...;)
dirkformica
10-29-06, 11:58 PM How about a Sylph (Monster Manual 2) Sorcerer (or any class that progresses spellcasting)? They have that racial sorcerous casting ability that basically makes them one level lower than a normal Sorcerer progression but with Greater Invsibility at will and some nice stat mods.
The_Shaman
10-30-06, 08:50 AM I always thought the sylph was a fey... Apparently I need to brush up my fantasy biology :D
Ikeren
10-30-06, 03:47 PM Outsider Type: Aasimar are native outsiders. Thus, they are vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but immune to effects that target other types. For example, an aasimar would be subject to the extra damage from an outsider bane sword but immune to hold person, since that spell affects only humanoids.

Outsider Type: Tieflings are native outsiders, so they are vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but immune to effects that target other types. For example, a tiefling would be subject to the extra damage from an outsider bane sword but immune to hold person, since that spell affects only humanoids.

I am going to need somebody to explain the difference between "Outsider Type" and actually being an outsider for me please.
PhaedrusXY
10-30-06, 04:05 PM I am going to need somebody to explain the difference between "Outsider Type" and actually being an outsider for me please.There isn't one.
Ander Spectacular
10-31-06, 05:32 PM What if you had a low HD, low LA creature with class levels that you polymorphed all the time? Couldn't you turn even something like a lantern archon into a planetar through polymorph? Even something like an azer(with loads of class levels) would work well then. This would make what would otherwise be a pretty crappy class feature usable.
-AS-
fnord
10-31-06, 05:38 PM Fiend of Possession or a Neraph.
Cael
10-31-06, 06:27 PM I am going to need somebody to explain the difference between "Outsider Type" and actually being an outsider for me please.
Lesser Planetouched don't get the Outsider type. They get Humanoid (planetouched). These are the +0 LA option in the Player's Guide to Faerun (I think), not the +1 LA ones out of the Monster Manual/SRD.

When I am bored, I just scare the group with a Half-Celestial Unicorn with the Celestial Charger (sans Cleric levels) stats. But only when I want to be funny. Otherwise, a Coure Eladrin is always fun. Permanent "you can't possess me" effect from the pixie on your shoulder.
Ikeren
10-31-06, 07:06 PM I am still a bit confused.

If there isn't a difference between Outsider Type and Outsider, then why wouldn't chosing a 0 LA Lesser Aasimar or Tiefling be an option?

And if the Lesser Aasimar and Tiefling do not get the Outsider Type, why does it say they do, right here?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a
tacoronte
10-31-06, 07:24 PM I'd suggest the "Lumi" (Monster Manual 3), they have low LA, and can be quite useful if your character fights undead, because of their immunity to energy drain
PhaedrusXY
10-31-06, 07:52 PM I am still a bit confused.

If there isn't a difference between Outsider Type and Outsider, then why wouldn't chosing a 0 LA Lesser Aasimar or Tiefling be an option?

And if the Lesser Aasimar and Tiefling do not get the Outsider Type, why does it say they do, right here?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213aThey are "printed" in more than one place. The other source says the don't get the Outsider type. The one you linked to is obviously overpowered if you aren't forced to take the next level of the template.
Ikeren
10-31-06, 08:12 PM Okay, thanks. Where are the other printings? Are they of the full aasimar and tiefling races, or these progressions?
Cael
10-31-06, 08:34 PM I am still a bit confused.

If there isn't a difference between Outsider Type and Outsider, then why wouldn't chosing a 0 LA Lesser Aasimar or Tiefling be an option?

And if the Lesser Aasimar and Tiefling do not get the Outsider Type, why does it say they do, right here?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a
That is *not* the Lesser Planetouched. That is a normal Planetouched broken up into racial level progression like that given in Savage Species. The caveat of that, if you follow the rules in Savage Species, is that you *must* take all racial levels before you take anything else.
Cael
10-31-06, 08:35 PM Okay, thanks. Where are the other printings? Are they of the full aasimar and tiefling races, or these progressions?
The Lesser version is found in Players Guide to Faerun. That is the only place they are mentioned, as far as I know.
ravidubey
02-01-07, 06:49 PM NONE of them. Read the ability!

It uses the ECL of the creature, not the HD or CR. Combined with the level giving exactly nothing else of value, and with this cohort taking the place of a Leadership cohort, it's a CRAP level.

Wow. I hadn't realized just how on the money you are. Thaumaturgist level 5... sucks! The only saving is if you are absolutely feat-starved (which most clerics are), but the difference in power is shocking.

What would you rather have, a Bralani Eladrin or a loyal 12th level cleric? If you answered the Bralani, you have to be nuts.

At 12th or 15th level, just take leadership. Simple.
runestar
02-02-07, 08:18 AM You are right, the roleplaying limitations on the planar cohort are really stifling...:(
Hyfigh
02-02-07, 08:49 AM Valkyries from ToB are ECL 16. They aren't bad in combat at all. Especially when you take into account that they have an effective swordsage level of 10 right off the bat.

Edit: Another thing to ask your DM about is templating. You could pick from a much larger array of creatures by adding one of the Elemental Templates or even the Psuedonatural Template. With no LA attached, they aren't half bad.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lamenterm 10-27-06, 10:42 PM	Im making a level 15 thaumaturgist,cleric and i am wondering which outside is the best for his 5th level class skill. I have almost all books available in 3.5 except forgotten realms ones.
X-Codes 10-27-06, 11:09 PM	NONE of them. Read the ability! It uses the ECL of the creature, not the HD or CR. Combined with the level giving exactly nothing else of value, and with this cohort taking the place of a Leadership cohort, it's a CRAP level. Unless you can convince your DM that you can get a Planar Cohort of a low ECL race with class levels like an Aasimar, Tiefling, Genasi, Fey'ri, etc. then the best one is probably a Hound Archon Paladin 1, and thats pretty bad at ECL 15. Seriously, just take Leadership.
Lamenterm 10-28-06, 12:08 AM	hmm i am probably missunderstanding ecl. whats determines ecl? because in the dmg it says hd + level adjustment (at least in the example for the class ability), which means a leonal guardinal with 12 hd and no level adjustment would work just fine.
runestar 10-28-06, 07:13 AM	hmm i am probably missunderstanding ecl. whats determines ecl? because in the dmg it says hd + level adjustment (at least in the example for the class ability), which means a leonal guardinal with 12 hd and no level adjustment would work just fine. LA of "-" is not the same as LA+0, the former simply means that no LA is provided as it is not deemed appropriate for use as a PC. You could try assigning a LA to it, but I can assure you that it definitely won't be +0. That said, yeah, X-Codes pretty much hit the nail on the head - outsiders in general get too crippling LAs to be considered as viable cohorts or PCs. What alignment is your cleric? Lowest ECL I can think of is a dretch(ECL4) with class lvs...though it is quite pathetic...:(
X-Codes 10-28-06, 08:00 AM	LA of "-" is not the same as LA+0, the former simply means that no LA is provided as it is not deemed appropriate for use as a PC. You could try assigning a LA to it, but I can assure you that it definitely won't be +0. Actually, an LA of "-" doesn't actually mean "Unfit for character play." It could also mean that it has an ECL (HD + LA) over 20, and the Monster Manual does not support any Epic material (and, thusly, ignores it completely). Regardless, most Outsiders with 10 or more HD have ECLs well over 20. If you absolutely have to have a Planar Cohort, theres really only one viable option I can think of, and it's just barely viable: Succubus Blackguard. A natural party face and a fearsome melee presence with it's whopping +16 racial bonus to Charisma, greatly augmenting it's saving throws and damage (with Divine Power). If there were more reliable ways to get charisma added to attack rolls, then this character would be almost undefeatable as far as melee combat goes.
The_Shaman 10-29-06, 12:13 PM	First, the ally must be an elemental or outsider. Half-celestials and half-fiends are outsiders, so anything that has 4+ intelligence can be taken as a companion. On the downside, the Half-X gives a hefty +4 bump to the LA. As for any "real" outsiders: it really depends on what the group needs. Outsiders, generally, have great monster levels, but it's the LA that hits them. Ironically, my best choice would not be an outsider at all, but an elemental. Savage species placed the LA on medium elementals around +5, so they're not good mounts, but mephits can be pretty useful. I've thought about a mephit sorcerer or bard. They have a good charisma, and a breath weapon usable as often as a dragon. I'd recommend an air or ice mephit - decent spell-like abilities, good flight speed, and good dexterity (which for a mephit imo beats strength). Plus, an air mephit with a flute looks cool, I think. The ice mephit has a better breath weapon, but poorer spell-like abilities. Bard is a good class, imo, because it's a class in which you could help the group even with a few levels, while it's often left out because it tends to be a jack-of-all-trades. Other good (imo) ideas are, in a relative order of level required: Imp / quasit rogue (since they can be obtained as familiars I suppose the LA isn't larger than +1) Yeth hound ranger or barbarian Bralani eladrin as a bodyguard/helper Xill with ranger levels and multiattack ranger feats Lillend bard (has inbuilt bard levels that offset the LA), A succubus bard can also be insane - look at the charisma and imagine what bards can do with it :D Erynnies ranger (archer path, they have a ton of archer feats anyway) Rakshasa Sorcerer (inbuilt sorc levels, plus hefty DR, supernatural detect thoughts and serious SR, build would be Sorc 1 / Eldritch Knight. The EK is there to better use the natural attacks, you meet the prerequisites from the beginning but 1 sorc level can net him a familiar) Couatl Sorcerer (again inbuilt sorc/EK levels here, it also has good flight, etherial jaunt at will, and also has perhaps the most potent disabling poison I've seen) It's a pity blink dogs aren't outsiders. With relatively low LA and decent abilities (i.e. dimension door) they could be a handy critter to have. However, the half-celestial template is a bit too much for them imo.
PhaedrusXY 10-29-06, 12:48 PM	Something with the lowest LA possible plus class levels (especially Fiend of Possession, if it fits your character and is allowed).
ChrisAsmadi 10-29-06, 12:52 PM	Neraphs are LA+0 outsiders. They, along with some fairly low LA(+1 or +2) Outsiders are inside the Planar Handbook.
The_Shaman 10-29-06, 04:55 PM	Note: sorry, a lvl 15 thaumaturgist won't be able to have a couatl cohort. Anyway, I don't have the planar handbook, but anything with a low LA could be useful, especially if it has a high score for fighting or spellcasting.
Ikeren 10-29-06, 08:38 PM	Use the lesser aasimar or lesser tiefling found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a Don't continue with their progression (unless you can get Unearthed Arcana's LA buyoff for the rest of their progression). The lesser Aasimar makes good anything, the tiefling has -2 charisma which means, perhaps little, perhaps a lot, depending on how your cohort is stated. Then give them class levels however you like - casters, melee's, gish's, crafters.
Auldar 10-29-06, 10:29 PM	If you need an item factory, you could grab the Midgard Dwarf from Frostburn - I think he has an ECL of 12 (8HD), and can make you all the rings, wonderous items, and arms and armor you could ever want, without needing to cast the spells in question. You'd have to use PHBII web enhancement rules to transfer XP to him though for the item creation costs.
runestar 10-29-06, 11:13 PM	Use the lesser aasimar or lesser tiefling found here: They aren't outsiders, so you won't be able to summon them via planar ally and bind them as a cohort...;)
dirkformica 10-29-06, 11:58 PM	How about a Sylph (Monster Manual 2) Sorcerer (or any class that progresses spellcasting)? They have that racial sorcerous casting ability that basically makes them one level lower than a normal Sorcerer progression but with Greater Invsibility at will and some nice stat mods.
The_Shaman 10-30-06, 08:50 AM	I always thought the sylph was a fey... Apparently I need to brush up my fantasy biology :D
Ikeren 10-30-06, 03:47 PM	Outsider Type: Aasimar are native outsiders. Thus, they are vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but immune to effects that target other types. For example, an aasimar would be subject to the extra damage from an outsider bane sword but immune to hold person, since that spell affects only humanoids. Outsider Type: Tieflings are native outsiders, so they are vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but immune to effects that target other types. For example, a tiefling would be subject to the extra damage from an outsider bane sword but immune to hold person, since that spell affects only humanoids. I am going to need somebody to explain the difference between "Outsider Type" and actually being an outsider for me please.
PhaedrusXY 10-30-06, 04:05 PM	I am going to need somebody to explain the difference between "Outsider Type" and actually being an outsider for me please.There isn't one.
Ander Spectacular 10-31-06, 05:32 PM	What if you had a low HD, low LA creature with class levels that you polymorphed all the time? Couldn't you turn even something like a lantern archon into a planetar through polymorph? Even something like an azer(with loads of class levels) would work well then. This would make what would otherwise be a pretty crappy class feature usable. -AS-
fnord 10-31-06, 05:38 PM	Fiend of Possession or a Neraph.
Cael 10-31-06, 06:27 PM	I am going to need somebody to explain the difference between "Outsider Type" and actually being an outsider for me please. Lesser Planetouched don't get the Outsider type. They get Humanoid (planetouched). These are the +0 LA option in the Player's Guide to Faerun (I think), not the +1 LA ones out of the Monster Manual/SRD. When I am bored, I just scare the group with a Half-Celestial Unicorn with the Celestial Charger (sans Cleric levels) stats. But only when I want to be funny. Otherwise, a Coure Eladrin is always fun. Permanent "you can't possess me" effect from the pixie on your shoulder.
Ikeren 10-31-06, 07:06 PM	I am still a bit confused. If there isn't a difference between Outsider Type and Outsider, then why wouldn't chosing a 0 LA Lesser Aasimar or Tiefling be an option? And if the Lesser Aasimar and Tiefling do not get the Outsider Type, why does it say they do, right here? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a
tacoronte 10-31-06, 07:24 PM	I'd suggest the "Lumi" (Monster Manual 3), they have low LA, and can be quite useful if your character fights undead, because of their immunity to energy drain
PhaedrusXY 10-31-06, 07:52 PM	I am still a bit confused. If there isn't a difference between Outsider Type and Outsider, then why wouldn't chosing a 0 LA Lesser Aasimar or Tiefling be an option? And if the Lesser Aasimar and Tiefling do not get the Outsider Type, why does it say they do, right here? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213aThey are "printed" in more than one place. The other source says the don't get the Outsider type. The one you linked to is obviously overpowered if you aren't forced to take the next level of the template.
Ikeren 10-31-06, 08:12 PM	Okay, thanks. Where are the other printings? Are they of the full aasimar and tiefling races, or these progressions?
Cael 10-31-06, 08:34 PM	I am still a bit confused. If there isn't a difference between Outsider Type and Outsider, then why wouldn't chosing a 0 LA Lesser Aasimar or Tiefling be an option? And if the Lesser Aasimar and Tiefling do not get the Outsider Type, why does it say they do, right here? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a That is not the Lesser Planetouched. That is a normal Planetouched broken up into racial level progression like that given in Savage Species. The caveat of that, if you follow the rules in Savage Species, is that you must take all racial levels before you take anything else.
Cael 10-31-06, 08:35 PM	Okay, thanks. Where are the other printings? Are they of the full aasimar and tiefling races, or these progressions? The Lesser version is found in Players Guide to Faerun. That is the only place they are mentioned, as far as I know.
ravidubey 02-01-07, 06:49 PM	NONE of them. Read the ability! It uses the ECL of the creature, not the HD or CR. Combined with the level giving exactly nothing else of value, and with this cohort taking the place of a Leadership cohort, it's a CRAP level. Wow. I hadn't realized just how on the money you are. Thaumaturgist level 5... sucks! The only saving is if you are absolutely feat-starved (which most clerics are), but the difference in power is shocking. What would you rather have, a Bralani Eladrin or a loyal 12th level cleric? If you answered the Bralani, you have to be nuts. At 12th or 15th level, just take leadership. Simple.
runestar 02-02-07, 08:18 AM	You are right, the roleplaying limitations on the planar cohort are really stifling...:(
Hyfigh 02-02-07, 08:49 AM	Valkyries from ToB are ECL 16. They aren't bad in combat at all. Especially when you take into account that they have an effective swordsage level of 10 right off the bat. Edit: Another thing to ask your DM about is templating. You could pick from a much larger array of creatures by adding one of the Elemental Templates or even the Psuedonatural Template. With no LA attached, they aren't half bad.