Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tenken 09-06-04, 11:34 AM	I saw another thread for a great build using a dwarf and the Deepwarden prc (Races of Stone book) combined with Dwarven Defender to get a nice chunk of AC. This is the best build for AC that I've seen that only uses about 4-5 classes total to get that kind of AC and it gets a really nice DR as well, but if you come up with a better method, this isn't a must-have build. What I want is a build using only 4-5 classes or prcs, (FR setting, but all WotC books allowed, including DragonLance, Oriental, Rokugan, etc), that has the best combination of AC and SR. I'm honestly not sure if SR is even worth it, or if it would be more optimal to just bump the Will and Fort saves up, so please let me know. Basically I need a bastion of defense that can hold as many possible types of attacks as needed. Other members in my party: a pure rogue, pure cleric, and pure sorc. This character needs to be a really good tank. My party members are extremely great at being teammates and willing to give spells to buff other party members. Requirements: 43 point buy 20th level any race all WotC books 4-5 classes max as much AC as possible combined with either as much SR or Will + Fort saves as possible. Again, remember, if SR isn't necessary since Will save is just as good, please build accordingly. I hope I've given all the info I need.
Heleo 09-06-04, 11:52 AM	the family domain is completely broken. as a free action usuable at will you can give a dodge ac bonus to you and your allies. i think its plus 2. dodge bonuses stack with themselves, so once a round you can use this. it does max out though based on duration, which im pretty sure is one round per level. but if you just kept using it all the time you and anyone within 10 feet of you would have a huge bonus to ac. lets break it down... at 10th level +2 first round +2 second round +2 third round +2 fourth round +2 fifth round +2 sixth round +2 seventh round +2 eighth round +2 ninth round +2 tenth round now on the 11th round the first one wears off, but that is still +20 AC to you and anyone in your party who is within 10 feet of you. and because its usuable at will you can just keep it on outside of combat. so you always have that bonus to ac. i thought about making a party of cleric archers who use this ability each round and stay within 10 feet of each other. its a free action so you can still attack normally and blast with spells. at 20th level if there were 4 of them they would get +160 to AC, nothing can hit that or come close.
SolitudeSeraph 09-06-04, 11:53 AM	Monk with Vow of Poverty....simple and highly effective for your request :D
ksbsnowowl 09-06-04, 12:35 PM	Human Druid 20 with the Dragon Wildshape Feat (Draconomicon). Wildshape into a Shadow Dragon (+19 Natural Armor, SR 20 ) Buy a Monk's Belt (Wis mod +1 to AC), Periapt of Wis +6, and a Tome of Wis +5 (and put all your level increases into Wis.) You'll have a Wisdom of 34, giving you a +12 Wis Mod. Just with the Monk's belt and Shadow Dragon Wildshape you'll have a base AC of 42. Add in some Bracers of Armor, a Ring of Protection, and an extended [i]Barkskin spell, and you'll rarely ever get hit. And trust me, a high level druid can make a very formidable Tank (though many of the good tank forms will have a smaller Natural Armor Bonus). Another good option is to Wildshape into an Octopus Tree (Fiend Folio). + 24 Natural Armor Bonus, nine natural attacks per round with 15 ft. reach (each doing at least 2d6 plus str mod damage [30 str]), though it does have a slow 10 ft. land speed. Don't forget that at this level you also have access to Shapechange (Don't forget to buy a Metamagic Rod of Greater Extend, an Orange Ioun Stone, and a Bead of Karma). With all those items, a 20th level Druid can cast a Shapechange that'll last for 8 hours and 20 minutes. Forms such as Leonal (SR 28), Balor (SR 28), or Monadic Deva (Fiend Folio, SR 22 and immunity to all energy but sonic) are quite powerful. I'd allocate stats in a manner similar to those listed below: Str-8 - 0 Dex-14 - 6 Con-13 - 5 Int-16 - 10 Wis-18 - 16 Cha-14 - 6 Or Str-8 - 0 Dex-13 - 5 Con-10 - 2 Int-16 - 10 Wis-18 - 16 Cha-16 - 10
Khazra Reborn 09-06-04, 02:55 PM	Any fighter with improved combat expertise....... I played a dwarven fighter/dwarven defender who came out with a quite beefy 46 (70 with full combat expertise & defensive stance) & was nigh unhittable. Remade with 2 levels of deep warden that would be 82 in defensive stance with full expertise, 62 without expertise so you can still hit. Oh, forgot, add +5 Ac for defending weapon so 67 or 87 with full combat expertise.
El_Machinae 09-06-04, 03:10 PM	Improved Shield Bash and TWF means that you can use a shield bonus and the bonus from the defending spikes on it. I've also put the bane enchantment on the shield spikes - sometimes they give you an extra +2 bonus to defend with.
CubeKnight 09-06-04, 03:26 PM	the family domain is completely broken. as a free action usuable at will you can give a dodge ac bonus to you and your allies. i think its plus 2. dodge bonuses stack with themselves, so once a round you can use this. it does max out though based on duration, which im pretty sure is one round per level. but if you just kept using it all the time you and anyone within 10 feet of you would have a huge bonus to ac. lets break it down... at 10th level +2 first round +2 second round +2 third round +2 fourth round +2 fifth round +2 sixth round +2 seventh round +2 eighth round +2 ninth round +2 tenth round now on the 11th round the first one wears off, but that is still +20 AC to you and anyone in your party who is within 10 feet of you. and because its usuable at will you can just keep it on outside of combat. so you always have that bonus to ac. i thought about making a party of cleric archers who use this ability each round and stay within 10 feet of each other. its a free action so you can still attack normally and blast with spells. at 20th level if there were 4 of them they would get +160 to AC, nothing can hit that or come close. IIRC, even if dodge bonuses usually stack, nothing stacks with itself, so you can't gain more dodge bonuses from the same ability/spell/whatever.
allenchan 09-06-04, 03:54 PM	A Varoot (fiend foilo, LA+3 I believe, good stat bonuses, special reflective SR) VoP monk/Forsaker with high stats in con and wis. i made one, was very cool. Im not on my normal comp so I dont have the details available, will update later.
Heleo 09-06-04, 03:54 PM	read up on dodge bonuses, it says that they stack with everything including other dodge bonuses which means it stacks with itself.
CubeKnight 09-06-04, 03:59 PM	read up on dodge bonuses, it says that they stack with everything including other dodge bonuses which means it stacks with itself. Hmmm, let me reword my post: Dodge bonuses stack with themselves. No arguing there. However, two bonuses from the same source don't stack, even if they usually do (like if they're unnamed/dodge/I think luck and circumstance bonuses also stack). Like, casting true strike twice won't net you a +40 to hit, since one casting superceeds the other. In this case, you would only be 'refreshing' your +2 bonus.
Caelic 09-06-04, 04:07 PM	More to the point, I'm pretty sure that they remembered to include the phrase "once per day" in the 3.5 version.
Blue23 09-06-04, 04:07 PM	read up on dodge bonuses, it says that they stack with everything including other dodge bonuses which means it stacks with itself. Sure, dodge bonuses stack with dodge bonuses. But read the general section about bonus stacking. Basically, a bonus doesn't stack with itself, even if it is a form that normally stacks. Cheers, =Blue(23)
Tenken 09-06-04, 05:13 PM	Hmmm, most of the responses are forgetting the fact that I'm also asking for a good SR. The Druid 20 idea seems cool, but SR 20 doesn't seem like much at level 20. I'd imagine you would want around 35-40 bare minimum at that level? Obviously I'm not even sure if having a great AC and a great SR is even possible, but I figure if you can make a build with BAB +16 and caster level 19, then maybe there's a chance for having a build with great AC and great SR. Any other ideas? Perhaps since getting a high AC seems to be much easier, I should be asking, what's the best way to get a great defense vs magical attacks? What are the best classes or prcs or races that grant great SR?
Heleo 09-06-04, 05:59 PM	um you can use shapechange to shapechange into a rakshasa which gives you sr 27 plus class level which at 20 will be 20. total sr 47 at level 20, that is formidable. up until you have that spell though i think the dragon wildshape is a good idea to get you through. what do you want your primary attack form to be ? melee or spells ? druids can blast well with flame strike and if you are a melee fighter then i would choose something other than rakshasa to shapechange into but for pure sr i doubt you can find much better than that.
Tenken 09-06-04, 07:19 PM	Any fighter with improved combat expertise....... I played a dwarven fighter/dwarven defender who came out with a quite beefy 46 (70 with full combat expertise & defensive stance) & was nigh unhittable. Remade with 2 levels of deep warden that would be 82 in defensive stance with full expertise, 62 without expertise so you can still hit. Oh, forgot, add +5 Ac for defending weapon so 67 or 87 with full combat expertise. Care to give the build? :)
Mdar 09-06-04, 07:55 PM	20 druid. Non-erratted 3.5 shape change. Mithral golem. AC is at 42 init is at +4 (18 dex) DR is 50/+5 (3.5 is 15/epic and adamantine) face/reach is 10/10 (15/15 3.5 version) Before you shapechange into it, make sure you've wild shaped before hand. With natual spell you can still cast in your mithral golem form (both wildshape and shapechange are active at the same time) Make sure you buff up before hand cause that immunity to magic hurts! you can still be healed by haste spells (1d6 per level of caster max 10d6) You'll also be immune to sneak/crits (you gain construct traits)
catharz 09-07-04, 12:10 AM	For really high SR, a Half-celestial Hunter of evil is hard to beat.
Tenken 09-07-04, 12:14 AM	For really high SR, a Half-celestial Hunter of evil is hard to beat. Where's this Hunter of evil class from? Are you talking about the Stalker of Kharash and/or Paragon Harper?
catharz 09-07-04, 12:17 AM	Where's this Hunter of evil class from? Are you talking about the Stalker of Kharash and/or Paragon Harper? Stalker of Kharash/Foe hunter (and Nemesis, favored power attack, etc). There are better uses for Paragon harper.
Tenken 09-07-04, 12:20 AM	Half-celestial from MM says it's a +4 EL??? I dunno if that's worth it...?
Himosan 09-07-04, 04:56 AM	BoED has a scaled Level Adj for Half Celestials from +2 to +7.
nachtmeister 09-07-04, 08:20 AM	But +2 is definetly too low - and I don't think their table was meant for PC's
Overpowered_Munchkin 09-07-04, 09:18 AM	Human Druid 20 with the Dragon Wildshape Feat (Draconomicon). Wildshape into a Shadow Dragon (+19 Natural Armor, SR 20 ) Buy a Monk's Belt (Wis mod +1 to AC), Periapt of Wis +6, and a Tome of Wis +5 (and put all your level increases into Wis.) You'll have a Wisdom of 34, giving you a +12 Wis Mod. Just with the Monk's belt and Shadow Dragon Wildshape you'll have a base AC of 42. Add in some Bracers of Armor, a Ring of Protection, and an extended [i]Barkskin spell, and you'll rarely ever get hit. Just so you know, Monks belt does no give you Wis to AC. It Gives the Dodge bonus that the monk gets shown on the monk table.
carnivore 09-07-04, 10:09 AM	how about someting really fun 2 Headed Lernaen Saint Pixie Ranger 2/ Fighter 2/ barbarian 1/ (Frezied Berserker 4 im not sure if he can meet reqs for this PrC) or OoBI 4 2 headed Lernaen(+5LA) gives immunity to attacks to the body (physical or magical) so who needs AC (only weaknesses heads can be severed so the neck is vulnerable, but 2 new heads grow back in 1d4 rounds after a head is severed max heads = 2x original number of heads, the spells Disentigrate, Slay living , and Finger of Death can kill creature) Saint gives lots of stuff mainly for this discussion , WIS as Insight bonus AC, immunities, fast heal(HD/2)= 5, Lsr globe of Invulnerability at will Pixie gives lots mainly Greater Invisibility(50% miss chance)(a spl caster must see the target to cast spls that individually target something) at will and flight This little guy can fly right up to the BBEG and start being painfully annoying and the BBEG cant do very much to hurt him. The idea is to keep the attention of the creatures focused on a target that they cant hurt while the rest of the party focuses their attacks without distraction, the Taunt Feat is particularly helpful this guy becomes visible taunts all the bad guys and they all attack him and he keeps popping back and forth visible and invisible taunting and shooting the whole time. Getting this quiver is especially helpful as he can shoot all day and never run out of arrows: Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver. Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes. Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.
ksbsnowowl 09-07-04, 10:23 AM	Just so you know, Monks belt does no give you Wis to AC. It Gives the Dodge bonus that the monk gets shown on the monk table.I have yet to see convincing arguments to that regard. The belt's description says:If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus.Emphasis mine. There's only one entry for a monk's AC bonus and it says:AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level.Ephasis mine. So, as you can see, it is rather straight forward that a character gets Wis mod +1 to AC, since it "functions just like the monk's AC bonus," and the monk's AC bonus provides her Wisdom modifier to AC, as well as an additional +1 at 5th level.
Himosan 09-07-04, 01:13 PM	But +2 is definetly too low - and I don't think their table was meant for PC's +2 LA is only at 1-2 Hit Dice IIRC. Like I said it SCALES, as you go up in levels Half-Celestial gets much more powerful and hence gets an increased LA.
Norad 09-07-04, 02:12 PM	Race: Goliath Str:17 (21) Dex:10 Con:18 (20, 22 w/ Stoneblessed 3, possibly 26 by 20th) Int:13 Wis:10 Cha:10 Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 Thug 2 (UA fighter variant) Stoneblessed 3 Deepwarden 2 Battlerager 3 Bear Warrior 8 Warshaper 1 Feats + Racial Substitutions: 1: Mountain Rage, Ettercap Berserker Lodge 3: Reckless Rage 4: Wolf Berserker 6: Sacred Vow 7: +2 Con 8: Track 9: Stone Warden, Vow of Poverty 10: +1 Rage/day 11: Close Quarters Fighting (Battlerager) 12: +1 Rage/day 15+18: Whatever... When in rage: +16 Con, +7 Natural Armor, -4 AC, +160 HP at lvl 20 AC (w/o Armor): 27 Vow of Poverty: +24 Con, +9 Natural Armor, +8 Sacred, +3 Deflection (my number are from memory so might be a bit off), -4 AC AC (w/o Armor): 44 Without Vow of Poverty (armor optimization feats instead and Dwarven armor proficiency): +16 Con, +7 Natural Armor, -4 AC AC (w/ Interlocking Plate, magical w/ Wild property): 42 Of course this build can also have an amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Protection, etc. AC (assuming some standard magic items): 52 If you wanted to go for an SR angle also, go Svirfneblin with roughly the same build, buy off the LA and you should have 31 SR also by 20th. Basically, the idea is that your Rage ability can net you a lot more AC then you lose from the penalty, so work those Rage feats and you can end up with some pretty mad AC without a shield, while kicking ass. I also didn't factor in the stat bumps every 4 levels which gives another 2 AC to each of these builds.