Best counterspelling build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best counterspelling build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arminel
05-11-06, 11:57 AM This is an idea I'm playing around with. I've had a "Sorcerer + Heighten Spell + Improved Counterspell + Cantrip in each school" idea which is a good start, but is there a specific direction that it can be taken or how powerful or gimped is it?
Tagrid
05-11-06, 12:29 PM I'm playing a similar character right now. Going for Initiate of Sevenfold Veil (CA) for the wardings.

Reactive Counterspell from the FRCS allows you to counterspell without having to ready an action.
Pinky's brain
05-11-06, 12:34 PM Some lesser metamagic rods of quicken (assuming PHB2 takes care of the sorcerer metamagic problem) together with battlemagic perception (from HoB) are a nice combo ... allowing you to counterspell as a free action a lot of the time.
Ynvaar
05-11-06, 12:46 PM You will probably get a better response to this one on the message boards (under magic and spells) than you will here. Counterspelling is not really the kind of focus that these boards tend to embrace easily since it's difficult to quantify mathematically.

At high levels a counterspeller would be gold and there are a few great feats to support it now. I'm sure it's obvious, but anything you can do to increase your caster level will make your PC that much more effective.

The Archmage prestige class is one you should definately look at. Spellpower is your friend :)
capnwoodrow
05-11-06, 12:59 PM If Tome of Magic is available to you then you can take levels in Noctumancer. It's basically the Mystic Theurge of a mystery user/spell caster. You get a number of "Innate" counterspells per day that you can don't even have to ready an action to use; you just expend spell slots or spells per day. At higher levels you even get to retain half the level of the spell countered to add to the DC of the next spell you cast...

I'm working on Shadowcaster 4/ Sor 4/ Noctumancer 10/ AM2 for a campaign I'm building. He's shaping up to be vicious.
Medicelious-Melharmonac
05-11-06, 02:10 PM Archivist 3 / Wizard 3 / MT10 / Arcane PRC 4

With Improved Counterspell and Reactive Conterspell you will have a LOT more spells available to counter your opponents with.
Kresalak
05-11-06, 02:15 PM I think a kobold Sorcerer 3/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 3/Archmage 1 would work. With the Greater Ritual of Spellcheese you cast as an 18th level sorcerer and a 16th level Shadowcaster, you get the nice Noctumancer counterspelling, Improvee Counterspell feat, Reactive Counterspell feat, and Archmage Mastery of Counterspelling.
ChrisAsmadi
05-11-06, 02:16 PM If you want to combine arcane casting and mysteries, Wiz 3/SC 3/Nocturmancer 10/Mystic Theurge is best, for level 9 mysteries AND spells.
hogarth
05-11-06, 02:24 PM This is an idea I'm playing around with. I've had a "Sorcerer + Heighten Spell + Improved Counterspell + Cantrip in each school" idea which is a good start, but is there a specific direction that it can be taken or how powerful or gimped is it?
If these are the only feats you have, it won't work: you need to ready an action to counterspell, but you can only ready a standard action whereas casting a metamagicked sorceror spell is a 1 round action.

Reactive Counterspell fixes that problem by not requiring the readied action.
DBoot
05-11-06, 04:54 PM Reinhartz and I are working on a counterspelling guide. One of the most critical questions for a dedicated counterspeller is 'Are you going Epic?'

There are several different routes for Counterspellers, but if you go epic, you must fulfill certain prerequisites.
Arminel
05-11-06, 07:19 PM Reinhartz and I are working on a counterspelling guide. One of the most critical questions for a dedicated counterspeller is 'Are you going Epic?'

There are several different routes for Counterspellers, but if you go epic, you must fulfill certain prerequisites.

No, this DM thinks that DnD gets a little silly after levels 12~15 (debatable I'm sure) so it will not be going epic. Also, I don't know where a lot of these prestige classes came from, so could someone give me a link to the SRD or a reference to the books?
DBoot
05-11-06, 08:59 PM Alright if you aren't going epic and plan to stop at around level 15, this is more or less your goal

Dragonblood Sorcerer

Heighten Spell
Accelerate Metamagic (Heighten Spell)
Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell)

Improved Counterspell
Improved Initiative
Reactive Counterspell

If you can get flaws, get them. Devoted Counterspellers are feat hungry.

If you can get LA buy off, consider going Draconic Human for the extra feat and skills.

If you can use racial substitution levels, consider the Dragonborn Ex-Gold/Dream Dwarf. In the case of the latter, get put off Accelerate Metamagic and Practical Metamagic until after level 9, and use Dwarven Substitution levels. After achieving level 9, become a Dragonborn. Nice bonus spells, and no penalty to your Charisma (though your Dex kinda sucks).

Otherwise, Spellscale is a good bet.

If you go Draconic Human and/or get flaws and you end up going to 18, get Earth Sense and Earth Spell. You can even delay Practical Metamagic as long as you grab Earth Spell at the appropriate level. Thematically this goes great with the aforementioned Dwarf.

Be picky about your spell selection, you don't get too many. You want to gear your spell list toward three things; 1. Increasing your effectiveness as a counterspeller, 2. Keeping yourself alive as you do your thing, and 3. Options other than counterspelling.

In category 1, Battlemagic Perception (Lvl 3, HoB) and Shrinshee's Spellshift (lvl 9, LEoF) are essentials.
Category 2 depends on how you want to protect yourself.
Category 3 includes some damage and/or battlefield control spells.

That should do it.
aelryinth
05-11-06, 09:33 PM The heighten a cantrip trick doesn't work without accelerate metamagic.

Counterspelling is, all by itself, a standard action. Thus, it can be readied.

Reactive counterspell allows you to give up your next standard action to counterspell. That's fine. It just defers the normal cost.

but you still haven't accounted for the full round action needed to take a cantrip up to the level where you can counterspell with it. this is an 'additional' cost for sorcerors, and it's why the trick doesn't fly.

The only way to do this is with Accelerate Metamagic (Heighten) or something similar. This allows you to heighten 'for free', and then the rules devolve to the above posts.

===Aelryinth
Sel_Carim
05-11-06, 10:59 PM I'm not sure if there is a ruling on this, but would the menomic staff (which lets you swap out a spell you have memorized for any spell you have previously cast once per day) allow you to swap out a prepared spell for one that is about to be cast at you so that you can counter it? If so, then the ring of spell combat would be very useful. This ring alerts you of any spells that are going to be cast at you, thus allowing you a chance to prepare yourself. Even if you can't directly counter a spell being cast at you, swaping out a spell for a resist fire could definately come in handy if you knew a nasty fire spell was coming your way shortly.
Arminel
05-11-06, 11:22 PM I'm not sure if there is a ruling on this, but would the menomic staff (which lets you swap out a spell you have memorized for any spell you have previously cast once per day) allow you to swap out a prepared spell for one that is about to be cast at you so that you can counter it? If so, then the ring of spell combat would be very useful. This ring alerts you of any spells that are going to be cast at you, thus allowing you a chance to prepare yourself. Even if you can't directly counter a spell being cast at you, swaping out a spell for a resist fire could definately come in handy if you knew a nasty fire spell was coming your way shortly.

Last thing I was curious about, is it possible to counter a cure spell with a Conjuration spell of the same level with Improved Counterspell?
BreakfastNinja
05-12-06, 03:38 AM ...Reactive Counterspell + Dispel Magic.

Inquisition Domain: +4 to dispel checks.

How is this not awesomer? : P
Blue23
05-13-06, 02:40 AM ...Reactive Counterspell + Dispel Magic.

Inquisition Domain: +4 to dispel checks.

How is this not awesomer? : P

Because the same school trick has no chance of failure. Assuming you and your opponent are equal level (and BBEGs are often a few levels up), you still hvae a 30% chance to fail.

It's fantastic for an ocasional counterspeller, but not for someone who's goal is to entirely shutdown opposing casters.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)
Subedei
05-13-06, 03:43 AM If you plan on counterspelling a lot you definitely want Archmage. You're just never going to completely shut down other spellcasters, especially not at high levels considering an arcane caster is fully capable of loosing 5-6 spells in a single round, maintaining 3-4 for at least a little while, and hitting you with 2/round pretty much as long as they have spells remaining.

Hmm, the most you could counter would be 2/round with a lot of quickened Battlemagic Perceptions and Reactive Counterspell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arminel 05-11-06, 11:57 AM	This is an idea I'm playing around with. I've had a "Sorcerer + Heighten Spell + Improved Counterspell + Cantrip in each school" idea which is a good start, but is there a specific direction that it can be taken or how powerful or gimped is it?
Tagrid 05-11-06, 12:29 PM	I'm playing a similar character right now. Going for Initiate of Sevenfold Veil (CA) for the wardings. Reactive Counterspell from the FRCS allows you to counterspell without having to ready an action.
Pinky's brain 05-11-06, 12:34 PM	Some lesser metamagic rods of quicken (assuming PHB2 takes care of the sorcerer metamagic problem) together with battlemagic perception (from HoB) are a nice combo ... allowing you to counterspell as a free action a lot of the time.
Ynvaar 05-11-06, 12:46 PM	You will probably get a better response to this one on the message boards (under magic and spells) than you will here. Counterspelling is not really the kind of focus that these boards tend to embrace easily since it's difficult to quantify mathematically. At high levels a counterspeller would be gold and there are a few great feats to support it now. I'm sure it's obvious, but anything you can do to increase your caster level will make your PC that much more effective. The Archmage prestige class is one you should definately look at. Spellpower is your friend :)
capnwoodrow 05-11-06, 12:59 PM	If Tome of Magic is available to you then you can take levels in Noctumancer. It's basically the Mystic Theurge of a mystery user/spell caster. You get a number of "Innate" counterspells per day that you can don't even have to ready an action to use; you just expend spell slots or spells per day. At higher levels you even get to retain half the level of the spell countered to add to the DC of the next spell you cast... I'm working on Shadowcaster 4/ Sor 4/ Noctumancer 10/ AM2 for a campaign I'm building. He's shaping up to be vicious.
Medicelious-Melharmonac 05-11-06, 02:10 PM	Archivist 3 / Wizard 3 / MT10 / Arcane PRC 4 With Improved Counterspell and Reactive Conterspell you will have a LOT more spells available to counter your opponents with.
Kresalak 05-11-06, 02:15 PM	I think a kobold Sorcerer 3/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 3/Archmage 1 would work. With the Greater Ritual of Spellcheese you cast as an 18th level sorcerer and a 16th level Shadowcaster, you get the nice Noctumancer counterspelling, Improvee Counterspell feat, Reactive Counterspell feat, and Archmage Mastery of Counterspelling.
ChrisAsmadi 05-11-06, 02:16 PM	If you want to combine arcane casting and mysteries, Wiz 3/SC 3/Nocturmancer 10/Mystic Theurge is best, for level 9 mysteries AND spells.
hogarth 05-11-06, 02:24 PM	This is an idea I'm playing around with. I've had a "Sorcerer + Heighten Spell + Improved Counterspell + Cantrip in each school" idea which is a good start, but is there a specific direction that it can be taken or how powerful or gimped is it? If these are the only feats you have, it won't work: you need to ready an action to counterspell, but you can only ready a standard action whereas casting a metamagicked sorceror spell is a 1 round action. Reactive Counterspell fixes that problem by not requiring the readied action.
DBoot 05-11-06, 04:54 PM	Reinhartz and I are working on a counterspelling guide. One of the most critical questions for a dedicated counterspeller is 'Are you going Epic?' There are several different routes for Counterspellers, but if you go epic, you must fulfill certain prerequisites.
Arminel 05-11-06, 07:19 PM	Reinhartz and I are working on a counterspelling guide. One of the most critical questions for a dedicated counterspeller is 'Are you going Epic?' There are several different routes for Counterspellers, but if you go epic, you must fulfill certain prerequisites. No, this DM thinks that DnD gets a little silly after levels 12~15 (debatable I'm sure) so it will not be going epic. Also, I don't know where a lot of these prestige classes came from, so could someone give me a link to the SRD or a reference to the books?
DBoot 05-11-06, 08:59 PM	Alright if you aren't going epic and plan to stop at around level 15, this is more or less your goal Dragonblood Sorcerer Heighten Spell Accelerate Metamagic (Heighten Spell) Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell) Improved Counterspell Improved Initiative Reactive Counterspell If you can get flaws, get them. Devoted Counterspellers are feat hungry. If you can get LA buy off, consider going Draconic Human for the extra feat and skills. If you can use racial substitution levels, consider the Dragonborn Ex-Gold/Dream Dwarf. In the case of the latter, get put off Accelerate Metamagic and Practical Metamagic until after level 9, and use Dwarven Substitution levels. After achieving level 9, become a Dragonborn. Nice bonus spells, and no penalty to your Charisma (though your Dex kinda sucks). Otherwise, Spellscale is a good bet. If you go Draconic Human and/or get flaws and you end up going to 18, get Earth Sense and Earth Spell. You can even delay Practical Metamagic as long as you grab Earth Spell at the appropriate level. Thematically this goes great with the aforementioned Dwarf. Be picky about your spell selection, you don't get too many. You want to gear your spell list toward three things; 1. Increasing your effectiveness as a counterspeller, 2. Keeping yourself alive as you do your thing, and 3. Options other than counterspelling. In category 1, Battlemagic Perception (Lvl 3, HoB) and Shrinshee's Spellshift (lvl 9, LEoF) are essentials. Category 2 depends on how you want to protect yourself. Category 3 includes some damage and/or battlefield control spells. That should do it.
aelryinth 05-11-06, 09:33 PM	The heighten a cantrip trick doesn't work without accelerate metamagic. Counterspelling is, all by itself, a standard action. Thus, it can be readied. Reactive counterspell allows you to give up your next standard action to counterspell. That's fine. It just defers the normal cost. but you still haven't accounted for the full round action needed to take a cantrip up to the level where you can counterspell with it. this is an 'additional' cost for sorcerors, and it's why the trick doesn't fly. The only way to do this is with Accelerate Metamagic (Heighten) or something similar. This allows you to heighten 'for free', and then the rules devolve to the above posts. ===Aelryinth
Sel_Carim 05-11-06, 10:59 PM	I'm not sure if there is a ruling on this, but would the menomic staff (which lets you swap out a spell you have memorized for any spell you have previously cast once per day) allow you to swap out a prepared spell for one that is about to be cast at you so that you can counter it? If so, then the ring of spell combat would be very useful. This ring alerts you of any spells that are going to be cast at you, thus allowing you a chance to prepare yourself. Even if you can't directly counter a spell being cast at you, swaping out a spell for a resist fire could definately come in handy if you knew a nasty fire spell was coming your way shortly.
Arminel 05-11-06, 11:22 PM	I'm not sure if there is a ruling on this, but would the menomic staff (which lets you swap out a spell you have memorized for any spell you have previously cast once per day) allow you to swap out a prepared spell for one that is about to be cast at you so that you can counter it? If so, then the ring of spell combat would be very useful. This ring alerts you of any spells that are going to be cast at you, thus allowing you a chance to prepare yourself. Even if you can't directly counter a spell being cast at you, swaping out a spell for a resist fire could definately come in handy if you knew a nasty fire spell was coming your way shortly. Last thing I was curious about, is it possible to counter a cure spell with a Conjuration spell of the same level with Improved Counterspell?
BreakfastNinja 05-12-06, 03:38 AM	...Reactive Counterspell + Dispel Magic. Inquisition Domain: +4 to dispel checks. How is this not awesomer? : P
Blue23 05-13-06, 02:40 AM	...Reactive Counterspell + Dispel Magic. Inquisition Domain: +4 to dispel checks. How is this not awesomer? : P Because the same school trick has no chance of failure. Assuming you and your opponent are equal level (and BBEGs are often a few levels up), you still hvae a 30% chance to fail. It's fantastic for an ocasional counterspeller, but not for someone who's goal is to entirely shutdown opposing casters. Cheers, =Blue(23)
Subedei 05-13-06, 03:43 AM	If you plan on counterspelling a lot you definitely want Archmage. You're just never going to completely shut down other spellcasters, especially not at high levels considering an arcane caster is fully capable of loosing 5-6 spells in a single round, maintaining 3-4 for at least a little while, and hitting you with 2/round pretty much as long as they have spells remaining. Hmm, the most you could counter would be 2/round with a lot of quickened Battlemagic Perceptions and Reactive Counterspell.