Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Telethar 10-29-05, 11:55 PM	Just like the thread title says. I was thinking of a human rogue 1/wizard 5/Daggerspell Mage10/X 4. Now I could add those 4 extra levels to wizard and get 9nth level spells, but are there any better suggestions for those last 4 levels? Possibly Arcane Trickster, but I want your guys opinions on this.
HCCommander 10-30-05, 03:30 AM	I know nothing which is worth the loss of 9th level spells, so I would make sure I get at least 3 caster levels out of those 4 levels. Wizard 9 however doesn't get you antyhing else. So Arcane Trickster seems a good idea, but perhaps there are other interesting choices that promote caster levels.
Sang-Drax 10-30-05, 05:28 AM	Definitely go Arcane Trickster. +2d6 SA is heavenly. However, don't go Rogue 1/Wizard 5 to qualify for DsM... there are ways to start with only 5 levels. One of them is choose Illumian and take the sigil that raises caster leve by 2. The other way is going human Spellthief 1/Wizard 4 and grabbing Practiced Spellcaster at first level. The difference here is that the Spellthief has Spellcraft as class skill, whilst Rogue does not... 4 ranks of spellcraft are required to pick PS. Of course, you'd have to convince your DM that picking PS (wizard) is ok even though you have no levels in wizard spellcasting - I don't know if the feat explicitly requires one to have class levels on the spellcasting class you want to add 4 caster levels, but I guess that's little to reasonable to think that way. The other way is going Rogue 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 3 - the extra bonus feat comes in handy. And you'll have another +2 to any stat. This one is my favorite. The other way is delaying your caster level even further - Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 1 or Rogue 2/Fighter 1/Wizard 2. Remember, the key feat is Practiced Spellcaster... problem is, with Rogue 1/Wizard 4 you can't take it because you need 2 feats you can't get at 1st level: PS and Weapon Focus (since you need BAB +1). Cheerz!
Telethar 10-30-05, 12:15 PM	OK course Practiced Spellcaster is a must, as would be Able Learner. But In order to get atleast 9nth level spells. I need at least 8 levels of pure arcane spellcasting, which leaves 2 levels to splat with. SpellThief would be good, but Fighter/Rogue would be better, as I want to maximize what little efficiency I have with those two daggers. I've heard of a feat that grants casters 3/4 base attack for total character level, would this be worth it?
Sang-Drax 10-30-05, 01:17 PM	Telethar, I think it's a magic enhancement, not a feat... unless it's in some of the more recent books around.
Telethar 10-30-05, 01:28 PM	Hmmm I don't know what it is either :weep: It would be useful though. Here is my just made Daggerspell build: Race: Human Warrior 1: Take Sneak Attack, also need to choose choose Hide and Move Silently as class skills(Take Wizard 1* Human Paragon1: Adaptive Skill: Move Silently Human Paragon2: Bonus Feat- Practiced Spell Caster Human Paragon3: Gain +2 Intelligence Wizard2* Dagger spell Mage1 DsM2 DsM3 DsM4 Warrior2: Take Improved Sneak Attack DsM5 DsM6 DsM7 DsM8 DsM9 DsM10 Arcane Trickster 1 AT2 AT3 Ok, this grants +7d6 sneak attack(correct me if I'm wrong) and 9nth level spells. BAB is 11, though if you replace the wizard levels somehow this could go up possibly. I believe this would work, though if it doesn't could some one point out the problem?
Nifft 10-30-05, 01:52 PM	Warrior 1: Take Sneak Attack, also need to choose choose Hide and Move Silently as class skills(Take Wizard 1* Human Paragon1: Adaptive Skill: Move Silently Human Paragon2: Bonus Feat- Practiced Spell Caster Human Paragon3: Gain +2 Intelligence I believe this would work, though if it doesn't could some one point out the problem? Er... you are mixing generic classes with regular classes. Isn't that specifically disallowed? -- N
Telethar 10-30-05, 02:03 PM	I don't know, thats why I put the question at the bottom asking if this is legal. I believe its legal, but I will double check right now, I think generic classes are just like other classes, you just coudn't go warrior/fighter or spellcaster/wizard.
Nifft 10-30-05, 02:07 PM	http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes). You can still include prestige classes, if you wish to add that level of complexity to your game, but you may have to tweak some prestige class prerequisites that include class features not available to these classes. -- N
Telethar 10-30-05, 02:45 PM	Bah! 'Tis sucks... Oh well back to the drawing board, might Swashbuckler be a good replacement for Warrior? I don't have Complete warrior though, my friend is picking me up a copy today, so I will use it to re-do my build later today,as always suggestions are welcome. Can anyone think of any good replacements for Wizard and Arcane Trickster? Also the name of the weapon enhancement that gives the 3/4 base attack would be welcome.
Sang-Drax 10-30-05, 03:27 PM	Can anyone think of any good replacements for Wizard and Arcane Trickster? Also the name of the weapon enhancement that gives the 3/4 base attack would be welcome. I guess the name is Skillful, in CA or CV, I guess. Arcane Trickster is excellent to finish off te build. Using Bard/Sublime Chord might be nice, but I doubt it would be better than the wizard... first, because of the Int sinergy (skills); second, because Daggerspell Mage/Arcane trickster is a great combo that takes 14 levels. Not takikng one or another would mean less sneak attack and skills; it's very unlikely to get something better out of bard/sc.
Nifft 10-30-05, 03:38 PM	Personally I'd rely on Tenser's Transfomation instead of a weapon enhancement. I luuuuuve the Rog 1 / Wiz 1 / Human Paragon 3 build prefix. :) That leaves you with FIVE levels open at the end of your career. Arcane Trickster is nice (2 or 4 levels), as is Archmage (if you can swing the Feat pre-reqs). If you're not using fractional saves & BAB, a 2nd level of Wizard could be useful, if only for the +1 BAB and +1 Will. -- N
Telethar 10-30-05, 03:49 PM	Using everyones suggestions so far I've come up with: Race: Human Rogue 1 Wizard1 Human Paragon3 Dsm10 Arcane Trickster5 This is the best build I can come up with, +6d6 sneak attack, 9nth level spells and the human paragon abilities make this pretty well rounded. Now remember that the Daggerspell Mage is caster first, sneak attacker second. So Persistent spell as a feat is a must, when you want to do attacks with your dagger that persistent Wraithstike comes in handy, as well for a good chance at sneak attacks, Shadow Form and Shadow canopy is a little referenced tatic that woudn't be as easy to counter as the invisible line of spells. Of course once you go epic, its hard to beat that ring of Sequester. Of course the last level of Arcane trickster could be subsituted for another PrC, or that second level of wizard to grab that extra BAB. (I apologize for any spelling errors in the chunk above, I don't have a spellchecker) Also comes out with around 62 hp+con so, greater Heroism is a must have persistent.
Nifft 10-30-05, 03:54 PM	For your last level drop Arc.Trick 5 and pick up Wizard 2. It's strictly better (+1 BAB and +1 Will vs. Ranged Leger. +1/day -- let's face it, with 9th level spells, you don't need to be all that sneaky). -- N
Khazra Reborn 10-30-05, 04:13 PM	5 levels of magelord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2) is also quite tasty, although it really loses out on skill points. i'd personally go rogue3/bard7/SC1/daggerspellmage9. For race go neraph (planar handbook) so you can polymorph into outsiders or human with the otherworldly feat (PGtF). This will mean you can assume a form with decent dex (oustiders generally have the best all round stats). If you have the MM2 then the kelvezu is an awesome form which even has SA that stacks with yours!
Nifft 10-30-05, 04:19 PM	5 levels of magelord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2) is also quite tasty, although it really loses out on skill points. ... and you need Evasion, which this build lacks. -- N
Khazra Reborn 10-30-05, 04:23 PM	...unless you get a ring of :P
Sang-Drax 10-30-05, 04:33 PM	The problem with a SC/DsM build is that the DsM nifty abilities don't come up until later levels. I'd rather go wizard and take the Daggerspell Flurry ability asap. Telethar, Nift is right... Wiz2/AT4 is a lot better than Wiz1/AT5. I guess you can't go wrong with Rogue 1/Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Daggerspell Mage 10/Arcane Trickster 4. Pick the 2nd level of wizard at 20th level only. I've heard people stating how much DsM abilities suck, and that it's worse or at least no better than the AT because your BAB will suck anyway... well, I just don't think so. There's a DsM in my party right now, and he's actually quite good... when he gets 5th level spells, he'll have access to the awesome Stormtouch spell, in the MoE preview in the wizards site. Simply awesome for Double Daggercast builds.
Nifft 10-30-05, 04:54 PM	Ooo, one other thing I forgot: DsM needs lower BAB than AT because, if you're allowed to use DsM, you're probably also allowed to use Wraithstrike ;) (It's sort of a meta-game consideration, but it's a strong spell that justifies your TWF focus, just like true strike justifies a Spring Attack / Power Attack focus.) -- N
Telethar 10-30-05, 05:41 PM	Wizard 2 instead of 5th level arcane trickster? Got it. Nifft I also wrote in my last past that the build gets a lot out of a persistent Wraithstike. Wraithstrike rocks...Stormtouch? Hmm I'll go look at it now, though I like vamperic touch, good source of healing. Shocking grasp always helps, level 2o, you get 1d8+20 with a first level spell. Say your attacking with a +5 dagger at level 20 and get your sneak attack, 1d4+5+6d6+1d8+20. Not bad, and this assumes your out of better touchspells. Also at epic levels, take Spell Opertunity and combine with Karmic strike, nasty.
Nifft 10-31-05, 12:26 AM	Shocking grasp [...] 1d8+20 with a first level spell. In 3.0e, sure. In 3.5e, you get 5d6 electrical (cap at 5th level). One nice thing though -- I think that if you crit when delivering a dagger-cast spell (i.e. deliver a touch spell via a melee strike with a dagger) you use the dagger's crit range. Well, I hope so anyway. -- N
Nazzareth 11-01-05, 03:12 PM	Five levels of invisible blade is great for a melee orientated Daggerspell mage. Daggercast and uncanny feint used together rock. Taking the staggering strike and craven feats, is even better.
Sang-Drax 11-01-05, 03:26 PM	Five levels of invisible blade is great for a melee orientated Daggerspell mage. Daggercast and uncanny feint used together rock. Losing 5 levels of an already delayed spellcasting is quite tough...
Vorlir 11-01-05, 03:48 PM	I'm pretty sure there's a commandment about that somewhere ;)
UbeRogue 11-01-05, 04:32 PM	if you got the improved feint(feint as a move action), would that stack with the inv. blade's uncanny feint? if so, you would have 2 levels to play with. just a thought.
Sang-Drax 11-01-05, 04:49 PM	if you got the improved feint(feint as a move action), would that stack with the inv. blade's uncanny feint? if so, you would have 2 levels to play with. just a thought. I don't think so... that's not a general rule, I mean. it would have to be specified in the uncanny feint's description, and, IIRC, it's not.
Sieylianna 11-01-05, 05:03 PM	Five levels of invisible blade is great for a melee orientated Daggerspell mage. Daggercast and uncanny feint used together rock. Except for the fact that by the time you have uncanny feint, you can havegreater invisibility. Ed