Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vodalen 06-11-04, 09:45 AM	Here's the best I've been able to come up with so far: Take a Wilder 20, with mind thrust, fission, schism, and greater metamorphosis as powers known. Empower power and psicrystal focus are the only feats absolutely necessary. Figure 20 starting int(grey elf), +5 from levels, +5 tome, and +6 enhancement item for 473 pp. Fission, then both you and your duplicate manifest schism. Then you both metamorphosize into a spellweaver from MMII. They have the (ex) ability spellweaving, that lets them cast up to six levels worth of spells simultaneously(or, thanks to psionic/magic transparency, six levels worth of powers). Mind thrust is a 1st level power which does 1d10 per power point spent, will negates. With wild surge +6, that means a wilder can spend 20 points in conjunction with wild surge to manifest a 26d10 mind thrust. Your fissioned copy has two negative levels, which means its max manifester level is 24, for a 24d10 mind thrust. The schismed minds manifest at -6 levels, respectively 20 and 18 for you and your fission copy. Using spell weaving to manifest six mind thrusts and schism for a seventh, and your fission doing the same, followed by a quickened mind thrust, you end up with: (26d10 x 6) + (24d10 x 6) + (20d10 x 2) + (18d10 x 2) for a total of 376d10, average 2068 damage. Admittedly, will save to negate kind of stinks, but you can replace mind thrust with crystal shard(ranged touch, 1d6/pp, no save no SR) or energy missiles depending on the situation. I'm certain someone can do better(and I'm pretty certain that this example can be further optimized), so let's see it! And please, for the love of God, no hulking hurlers!
HoshiAdam 06-11-04, 10:08 AM	Add in Overchannel and Vigor to the list also. Use Vigor to add 130 temporary hit points, and then overchannel everything by 3 more levels.
Vodalen 06-11-04, 10:11 AM	Originally posted by HoshiAdam Add in Overchannel and Vigor to the list also. Use Vigor to add 130 temporary hit points, and then overchannel everything by 3 more levels. Can't use overchannel in conjunction with wild surge, unfortunately. And it maxes out at +3 to manifester level, while wild surge gives +6.
Gol 06-11-04, 10:25 AM	edit: bah, didn't read the last line of your post. edit 2: and the best i could do (restricted to the PHB except for the race), was 818 :(
Canoy 06-11-04, 11:03 AM	Most Damage? Why don't we just say Hulking Hurler and end it?
Gol 06-11-04, 11:16 AM	Canoy: Originally posted by Vodalen And please, for the love of God, no hulking hurlers!
quetzyl 06-11-04, 11:31 AM	Fighter 4 Paladin 4 Sor 1 Cleric 1 Cavalier 10 Important feats WS Lance Cavalry Charger Power Attack Divine Might TWF tree Important spells Lions Pounce Enlarge Person Important Gear Tome +5 Str, +4 Cha Enhancement +6 Str +6 Cha +5 Lance *2 Boots of Speed Str 18+5+5+6=34 +12 Cha 18+4+6=28 +9 Damage on Charge at a medium target 5 Primary Hand Attacks at 5*(2d6+ 12(str) +9(cha)+4(cavalry charger)+2(ws)+5(weapon))=50d6+800 3 Off Hand Attacks = 30d6+390 Total average assuming all hit = 1470 No power attack was used, but if we allow full power attack the total damage goes up to 2190 I have neither books nor SRD access here, so I sure people can do better than this (eg I can't remember what a valorous lance does) but I think the dual lance wielding mounted cavalier should be able to win this contest (excluding Hulking Hurler) Cheers, quetzyl
belial33 06-11-04, 06:28 PM	to get around the mind thrust thing make sure your have crystal shard (psion/wilder 1) it only does 1d6 per pp but its a ray (no save just ranged touch attack). this way if you run into stuff that keeps making the saves (or cant fail) but you have a good chance to hit you can at least do some damage.
Previn 06-11-04, 09:22 PM	Originally posted by Vodalen \Then you both metamorphosize into a spellweaver from MMII. They have the (ex) ability spellweaving, that lets them cast up to six levels worth of spells simultaneously(or, thanks to psionic/magic transparency, six levels worth of powers).\ NO. Psionic/magic transparency does not allow you to apply abilities that effect spells (like the Spell Weaver's spell weave ability) to powers. It means that psionics and magic are equivalent for seeing if one could effect another in terms of dispeling, power/spell resistance and mind protection etc.
Vodalen 06-12-04, 12:05 AM	Originally posted by Previn NO. Psionic/magic transparency does not allow you to apply abilities that effect spells (like the Spell Weaver's spell weave ability) to powers. It means that psionics and magic are equivalent for seeing if one could effect another in terms of dispeling, power/spell resistance and mind protection etc. It's far broader than that. While the psionics-magic transparency rules don't specifically state that extraordinary abilities that affect magic also affect psionics, the examples they give seem to indicate that spellweaving would apply to psionics as well. It's a matter of DM interpretation, but I think the obvious choice in a campaign where you're not running 'psionics are different' is to let powers work in conjunction with it.
Athafin 06-12-04, 01:18 AM	5 Primary Hand Attacks at 5*(2d6+ 12(str) +9(cha)+4(cavalry charger)+2(ws)+5(weapon))=50d6+800 Lion's Charge only allows you to make a full attack after you charge so the benifits from charging wont make it to all five attacks... But adding valerous to the lance will give it another *1 to the total... You can also take the feat Power lunge to use *2 of your STR mod but recieve an AoO, but your gonna use a lance so that doesnt really matter... You could also use the Righteous Might spell and make yourself lage for an extra 8 STR... hope that helps...
Cynosure 06-12-04, 01:52 AM	Lion's Charge only allows you to make a full attack after you charge so the benifits from charging wont make it to all five attacks... Don't the benefits and penalties from charging last until the beginning of your next round? The main ones I'm thinking of are the +2 to attack and -2 to AC modifiers. Of course, being able to charge and take a full attack and have all your hits be x3 or x4 damage is obscene and broken, but since th attack and AC modifiers last until next round it almost seems like that strategy is valid. If I'm not mistaken you're considered to be "in a charge" the entire round after you charge. If I am mistaken, please give me a source so that I can correct any mistakes in future game sessions. I couldn't actually find a definitive ruling in the SRD, so I'd love to know where one is.
Athafin 06-12-04, 03:37 AM	I know what you mean... Right now I have a Paladin who is starting cavalier and adding all the multipliers is just fun... I cant say for sure that I'm correct... but the explanation for only one attack when charging is that its a full round action... because you need to travle and then strike... its the same for mounted combat... you only get one attack if your mount moves more than 5 ft. the multipliers make sense because of all the force from moving... and thats why I'm pretty sure the *2, *3, *4 etc only apply for the inital charge... its not like raging... for my characters sake, I hope I'm wrong...
Previn 06-12-04, 12:16 PM	Originally posted by Vodalen It's far broader than that. While the psionics-magic transparency rules don't specifically state that extraordinary abilities that affect magic also affect psionics, the examples they give seem to indicate that spellweaving would apply to psionics as well. It's a matter of DM interpretation, but I think the obvious choice in a campaign where you're not running 'psionics are different' is to let powers work in conjunction with it. No, you're reading rules that are not even remotely implied into the book, and make no sense in the context of the rules. From Pg. 65 of the XHB (bold emphasis is mine): The standard psionics system treats psionic energy and magic energy as mutully and equally vulnerable to a dispel magic spell or a dispel psionics power. Spell resistance protects against powers just as it does against spells, while power resistance protects against spells as it does against powers. It is never even remotely implied that transparancy is anything other than the interaction of spells and psioncs, not the ability swap psionic abilities for anything that has magica abilities. In fact durring 3.0, this question (can special abilities that effect spells {like arcane archer's Imbune Arrow} effect powers?) was specifically addressed by the sage, who gave it a no-go. As well, the MM2 was written after the Psionics handbook, it references the PsiHB in it. Should the Spell Weaver's ability work with psionics, it would say so. You can rule 0 it if you want, but it is not how the rules actually work, nor what they imply.
schbob 06-12-04, 11:25 PM	here is a copy and paste of a build I did awhile back, it slowly got modified and edited as I went along with it... the charging cavalier has nothing on the charging monk....I haven't found anything else that comes close to this build or beats it besides the hulking hurler 7604 average damage per round... in melee... at 21st level...... and you heal 1/2 of all damage dealt.... using pre-epic weapons (aka only +5hit/damage from weapon, and not past a +10total bonus) I love builds like these, I call them bowling for gods builds, just line the gods up nice and neat for me so I can steam roll on threw them ************************** basically a two-weapon fighting human monk, that can flurry with any weapon, still gets max unarmed bab and damage as a 20th monk would with any weapon, focued on +hit and +damage, and can do the charge attack from hell --------------------------------------------------- let me know if anyone finds any errors in this build, or any minor easily made upgrades, if there's anything please let me know and I will fix it I will name the build....Fists of the Tranquil, although it's slowly going towards Fists of the Rager, or Soul of the Tiger --------------------------------------------------- below is the build: levels, feats, basic items focusing on +hit/damage, multiple attacks, etc human items/base stats 37 base str (sun giant, skin of proteus) +6item +5book +4 (singh rager 3/day) +4insight (war mind 3/day) +8size (righteous might) = 64 str +27 18 base wis +6item +5book +5leveling = 34wis +12 2x darkwood ward cestus +5 (SaF), both valorous (unapproachable east), viscous (DMG), and wrathful healing (enemies and allies), weapon size increases to huge, etc, also counts as unarmed for damage monk's tatoo (MoF) monk's belt rhino hide armor (could even get the ability places on a shirt, so it doesn't count as armor so you still get +wis to ac as a monk) boots of powerful charging (MiniHB) torc of power preservation Skin to proteus (sun giant MM 2, huge) Skin of the hero (combine the 2 skins) item that cast's divine favor max CL item that cast's righteous might max CL item that cast's divine power max CL item that cast's magic fang greater max CL item that cast's spikes max CL haste item +1hit bonus +1attack pale gree ioun stone DMG +1hit competence boots of charging (mini-HB) monk 6 +4 4/4/4 PHB shou disciple 5 +5 4/4/1Unapproachable East, flurry with any weapon shiba protector 1 +0 2/0/2 Oriental Adventures, race human only, no thought = +wis mod to hit/damage singh rager 2 +2 3/0/3 OA lion's furry +4str/con (un-named bonus)3/day war mind 7 +7 5/5/2 XPH chain of personal superiority +2str/con (insight) 3/day, sweeping strike: all melee attacks hit 2 adjacents targets/squares, power points = (42+37+2) 81 powers: 1st lvl bite of the wolf 1st lvl expansion 2nd lvl psionic lion's charge ECL = 21st 1st unerring strike or quicken power 3rd weapon focus: unarmed 6th extoic weapon: blade boot 9th power lunge (full round of atks at end of charge, 2x str damage on charge) 12th wild talent 15th improved two-weapon fighting 2nd off hand attack 18th greater two-weapon fighitng 3rd off hand attack 21st perfect two-weapon fighting human alertness flaw (Unearthed Arcana) two-weapon fighting flaw (UA) power attack monk (using OA monk feat swapping, under monk entry) dodge monk iron will monk ki shout shou disciple combat expertise shou disciple combat reflexes or quicken power ------------------------------------------------ An example charge attack, full round of attacks from Psionic Charge, with expansion and bite of the wolf up, cost = 5 PP, power lunge 2x str mod on charge damage, plus all attacks hit 2 adjacent squares (sweeping strike), lion's rage going, and chain of personal superiority BAB 20 (from divine power) full round attacks = 12 20 monk's flurry 20 monk's flurry 20 haste 20 1st attack +18 offhand 15 2nd attack + 13 offhand 15 bite of the wolf 103rd attack + 8 offhand 5 4th attack + 3 offhand +20 ( 5x ), +15 ( 3x ), +10 ( 2x ) +5 ( 2x ) 7main hand, 4off hand, and 1 bite attack hit bonus: 5 weapon/magic fang bite 27 strength mod 1 weapon focus 6 luck 3 to hit enhancement (skin of the hero) 12 wisdom mod 1 haste 2 charge 1 pale green ioun stone -8 size (colossal) +50 damage dealt per hit: +2d6 rhino hide +5weapon / bite (greater magical fang for bite enhancement) +4 psionic lion's charge +2d6 viscous +12 wis mod ( shiba protector no though ) +27 str mainhand / +13 str offhand-same for bite +27 str mainhand / +13 str offhand-same for bite ( power lunge, double str damage on charge attacks ) +10 from spikes ( main and offhand attacks ) and everything gets double from the valorous weapon enhancement PLUS all damage is doubled from the valorous enchantment full round attacks: +70 ( 5x ), +65 ( 2x ), +64 ( 1x, bite, no weapon focus ), +60 ( 2x ), +55 ( 2x ) hits: main hand ( 7x ), offhand ( 4x ), bite ( 1x ) weapon damage: 12d8 (colossal sized, base is 2d10, does unarmed damage as a 20th monk) mainhand: 12d8 +4d6 +85, x2 from valorous, average 306 7x offhand: 12d8 +4d6 +57, x2 from valorous, average 250 4x bite: 6d6 +1d8 (increase from bite of wolf CL) +2d6 +47, average 158 1x powerful charge: 6d6, 2x from valorous, average 42 1x (not an attack, just extra damage from boots) assuming all attacks hit at the end of the charge: average damage = 3342 sweeping strike average damage (warmind, 2 adjacent targets) = 6684 toss on power attack for: power attack -20hit +40damage (x2 from valorous) per hit to all, but only +20damage to bite, extra 460 damage hits = +50 ( 5x ), +45 ( 2x ), +44 ( bite ), +40 ( 2x ), +35 ( 2x ) average damage = *****3802***** sweeping strike average damage = *****7604***** or toss on unerring strike if you are having trouble hitting, less damage but if you don't hit with everything I'd be suprised: hits = +90 ( 5x ), +85 ( 2x ), +84 ( 1x, bite, no weapon focus ), +80 ( 2x ), +75 ( 2x ) AND all damage dealt, you heal 1/2 of the amount from wrathful healing could drop some of the weapon enhancement and add in +1d6's in elemental damage, but those can get resisted, in 3.5 it's easily done though, could even drop it down to just a +1 enhancement to hit/damage, and use the rest for elemental damage, wrathful, valorous, viscious etc etc since the highest damage reduction is 15 non-epic in 3.5 MM ************************