Best Defensive Tank? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Defensive Tank? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lusden Veharo
10-14-05, 06:33 PM Goal: Be the ultimate defensive tank, able to wade through a dozen Intensified Fireballs, take a crit from a Frenzied Beserker without blinking, and keep enemies from getting past.

Sources: Core, Complete, Races of, Ebberon and Faerun campaign books

Currently I'm thinking Dwarven Fighter 2/Cleric 2/Barbarian 2/Cleric 3/Deepwarden 2/Dwarven Defender 10/xxx 1. Barbarian should be a Wolf Lodge, or whatever it is that gives Improved Trip at level 2. Max out Constitution and keep Strength as high as possible, with other stats much less important, other than Dex 13 for Combat Reflexes.

This has some useful minor buffing ability, an excellent AC with Mithril Full Plate, a respectable Will save and insane Fort save-bathing in Black Lotus Extract would be safe-and respectable offensive firepower.
Aristulous
10-14-05, 07:32 PM Take a look at Street Fighter PrC (pg 79 Complete Adventurer). Allows you to "Stand Tough" @2nd level once a day... two times a day @4th level.

With a successful fort save... "shake off" damage from a weapon or similiar blow. Assuming you make the save... you take 1/2 damage as non lethal damage.

Not a bad ability when your getting near 0 hitpoints or take a blow that puts you at -10.
Lusden Veharo
10-16-05, 05:32 AM Bump?
Amphetryon
10-16-05, 08:25 AM Currently I'm thinking Dwarven Fighter 2/Cleric 2/Barbarian 2/Cleric 3/Deepwarden 2/Dwarven Defender 10/xxx 1. Barbarian should be a Wolf Lodge

Wolf Totem, from Unearthed Arcana, though there's an Unapproachable East (FR) variant that lets you get the same thing at 1st level. For my money, I'd make that 1 level dip a Knight of the Middle Circle (an idea stolen shamelessly from one or more of Snow Savant's builds). Combat Sense +2 makes a great add-on to a Tank build.
Lusden Veharo
10-17-05, 10:29 AM Seriously, I refuse to accept that the CO board can't improve on this.
rilem
10-17-05, 10:49 AM Your build is fine — aside from the cheesy alignment shift (D. Defender=any Lawful, Bbn requires nonlawful), which is made worse by the cleric levels. Plus, once you turn lawful to enter Dwarven Defender you lose your rage, weakening the latter half of your build.

If you want to keep the rage, consider the Hida Defender from OA (which technically requires human, but that's a relatively easy thing to change in a home-brewed campaign.)

I realize OA isn't allowed in your game (pity, since the Sohei and Daiodji Bodyguard would also work nice). So you may have to choose between Rage and Defensive stance.
Elephant Jack
10-17-05, 10:52 AM Hi!

This one goes in a different direction, but you might try:

Psion (kineticist) 5/Psion Uncarnate 10/XXX 5

You'll be incorporeal (extraordinary ability) and manifesting null-psionic field if things are getting out of control.

You better look at the original build by Cvazi:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6550835

Hope this helps
EJ

p.s.: In Maure Castle (me=DM) one of my players is a Fighter 4/Psychic Warrior 4/Dwarfen Defender 4 - surely not optimized, but his AC is ~50 or so. He makes quite efficient use of compression and some dodge-AC boosting abilities/feats against larger-then-him opponents and nifty touch-AC boosting feats from Races of Stone (don't know the names).
rilem
10-17-05, 10:55 AM Psionic stuff isn't on his list of allowed materials, unless you consider Psionics in Core (most DMs, don't, I think).

But if so, great. War Mind is excellent for this sort of thing.
Lusden Veharo
10-17-05, 11:22 AM Rilem, you missed the reason for dipping into Barbarian-it's not Rage. Deepwarden requires 5 ranks of Survival, Barbarian has that on its list. Uncanny Dodge, a d12 hit die, +10 feet movement, and important skills are the big draws of Barbarian, though it's not a class that I like to include. Dwarven Defender gets Uncanny Dodge too, but it's nice to get it much earlier and the required level to flank him stacks.

Also, the character goes from Neutral to Lawful, not Chaotic to Lawful. A Barbarian has non-lawful as its requirement, not chaotic.
rilem
10-17-05, 11:41 AM ... Deepwarden requires 5 ranks of Survival...Also, the character goes from Neutral to Lawful, not Chaotic to Lawful. A Barbarian has non-lawful as its requirement, not chaotic.

Any predetermined alignment change is inherently cheesy — neutral-to-lawful makes no difference in this regard. You're saying "my PC feels this way, but later he'll feel THIS way, even though I have no idea what his experiences will be between now and then." Your DM may allow it, but some don't and thus it's frowned upon on the C/O board. That doesn't mean you can't do it; it's just a red-flag issue.

Regarding survival, HP — I'm well aware of these aspects. But there are other ways to get them (fighter sub levels, dwarf paragon levels, Cleric with the travel domain, etc.) that don't require you to lose an important class ability like rage.

(And your Bbn wouldn't get Uncanny Dodge, by the way — Wolf Totem replaces Improved Trip for Uncanny Dodge at level 2).
feng the red dragon
10-17-05, 12:46 PM take a barbarian give him wyrmskin clothing +6 to armor class, amulet of natural armor+5,bracers of armor +8, 2 rings of protection +5, a dex of 18for +4, and throw him into battle with his 43 armor class without armor
rilem
10-17-05, 12:59 PM Knowing your stats would help. And are Psionics OK?
Lusden Veharo
10-17-05, 01:29 PM If you mean me, we'll be rolling and I haven't rolled yet. Psionics are a no go, since they're not on the approved list. If you mean the last guy, he was giving advice, though that's not at all a tank, more of a damage machine with some AC. And yes, I did forget that I'm subbing out Uncanny Dodge.

Personally, I see a planned alignment change as no cheesier than many of the class combinations that are tossed about around here, especially when it fits EXTREMELY well with a class you add. Placing Barbarian before Cleric, then shifting to Lawful when you take cleric, fits thematically and is just as defensible as taking Cleric to begin with.
Medicelious-Melharmonac
10-17-05, 01:47 PM Try something like this
Assuming
20 Dex, 20 Con, 26 Wis

See Divine Metamagic (Persistent) threads

Dwarf Cleric 18 / Deepwarden 2
Earth and Travel

Size = -1
Dex = +4 (+1 with Iron Body)
Con = +5
Monk's Belt = +7
Greater Luminous Armor = +8 (+12 vs Evil) = HRS/level
Deflection: +5 Ring
Natural armor = +4 (Righteous Might) = Persistent
DR 15/Evil (Righteous Might)
DR 15/Adamantine (Iron Body)

If you are willing to take the Negatives, Persistent Iron Body is very nice.
You end up +14 Strength from IB and RM
Grab a gauntlet of rust and go to town.

AC: 39 + DR 15/Evil + DR 15/Adamantine

Iron Body - Earth 8

You gain damage reduction 15/adamantine. You are immune to blindness, critical hits, ability score damage, deafness, disease, drowning, electricity, poison, stunning, and all spells or attacks that affect your physiology or respiration, because you have no physiology or respiration while this spell is in effect. You take only half damage from acid and fire of all kinds. However, you also become vulnerable to all special attacks that affect iron golems.

You gain a +6 enhancement bonus to your Strength score, but you take a –6 penalty to Dexterity as well (to a minimum Dexterity score of 1), and your speed is reduced to half normal.
rilem
10-17-05, 01:57 PM Nope, I meant you.

If you haven't rolled yet, I'd almost advise you to consider something other than a DeepWarden/DD combinations. Here's why: DeepWarden is (as you note) tricky to get into, so the payoff of Con-to-AC has to be worth it (I would say Con of 6 points higher than Dex, minimum). Yet you already need a Dex of at least 13 (for combat reflexes and for the Dodge requirement of DD).

Your build also calls for high strength and a decent wisdom. So you really are counting on Con20, Dex14, Str16, Wis 13. Charisma is NOT unimportant; not if you have the chance to get Divine Shield or Divine Power, so you can't really dump that, either.

So as you can see, DW/DD/Divine Class trippers are pretty multiple-ability-dependent. Better make sure your stats can justify it.

Here's the Deepwarden thread, btw.

Best PrC tank EVAR (http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=290184&origin=)

Straight (or nearly straight) cleric could be a good option, as noted. Also Hammer of Moradin.

Or:

Fighter2/Pal4/Templar4/Kensai8/DwarvenDefender2
Gets mettle and a concentration-based reflex save, good number of HP
PhaedrusXY
10-17-05, 03:42 PM Wolf Totem, from Unearthed Arcana, though there's an Unapproachable East (FR) variant that lets you get the same thing at 1st level. The UE version is actually better. It gives you a +4 bonus to Trip that stacks with Improved Trip. It costs a feat, though, whereas the UA version doesn't.

I'd say that the "Ultimate Tank" would need four levels of Warshaper for fast healing, immunity to crits, and +4 to Con (and whatever else it gets... I forget).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lusden Veharo 10-14-05, 06:33 PM	Goal: Be the ultimate defensive tank, able to wade through a dozen Intensified Fireballs, take a crit from a Frenzied Beserker without blinking, and keep enemies from getting past. Sources: Core, Complete, Races of, Ebberon and Faerun campaign books Currently I'm thinking Dwarven Fighter 2/Cleric 2/Barbarian 2/Cleric 3/Deepwarden 2/Dwarven Defender 10/xxx 1. Barbarian should be a Wolf Lodge, or whatever it is that gives Improved Trip at level 2. Max out Constitution and keep Strength as high as possible, with other stats much less important, other than Dex 13 for Combat Reflexes. This has some useful minor buffing ability, an excellent AC with Mithril Full Plate, a respectable Will save and insane Fort save-bathing in Black Lotus Extract would be safe-and respectable offensive firepower.
Aristulous 10-14-05, 07:32 PM	Take a look at Street Fighter PrC (pg 79 Complete Adventurer). Allows you to "Stand Tough" @2nd level once a day... two times a day @4th level. With a successful fort save... "shake off" damage from a weapon or similiar blow. Assuming you make the save... you take 1/2 damage as non lethal damage. Not a bad ability when your getting near 0 hitpoints or take a blow that puts you at -10.
Lusden Veharo 10-16-05, 05:32 AM	Bump?
Amphetryon 10-16-05, 08:25 AM	Currently I'm thinking Dwarven Fighter 2/Cleric 2/Barbarian 2/Cleric 3/Deepwarden 2/Dwarven Defender 10/xxx 1. Barbarian should be a Wolf Lodge Wolf Totem, from Unearthed Arcana, though there's an Unapproachable East (FR) variant that lets you get the same thing at 1st level. For my money, I'd make that 1 level dip a Knight of the Middle Circle (an idea stolen shamelessly from one or more of Snow Savant's builds). Combat Sense +2 makes a great add-on to a Tank build.
Lusden Veharo 10-17-05, 10:29 AM	Seriously, I refuse to accept that the CO board can't improve on this.
rilem 10-17-05, 10:49 AM	Your build is fine — aside from the cheesy alignment shift (D. Defender=any Lawful, Bbn requires nonlawful), which is made worse by the cleric levels. Plus, once you turn lawful to enter Dwarven Defender you lose your rage, weakening the latter half of your build. If you want to keep the rage, consider the Hida Defender from OA (which technically requires human, but that's a relatively easy thing to change in a home-brewed campaign.) I realize OA isn't allowed in your game (pity, since the Sohei and Daiodji Bodyguard would also work nice). So you may have to choose between Rage and Defensive stance.
Elephant Jack 10-17-05, 10:52 AM	Hi! This one goes in a different direction, but you might try: Psion (kineticist) 5/Psion Uncarnate 10/XXX 5 You'll be incorporeal (extraordinary ability) and manifesting null-psionic field if things are getting out of control. You better look at the original build by Cvazi: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6550835 Hope this helps EJ p.s.: In Maure Castle (me=DM) one of my players is a Fighter 4/Psychic Warrior 4/Dwarfen Defender 4 - surely not optimized, but his AC is ~50 or so. He makes quite efficient use of compression and some dodge-AC boosting abilities/feats against larger-then-him opponents and nifty touch-AC boosting feats from Races of Stone (don't know the names).
rilem 10-17-05, 10:55 AM	Psionic stuff isn't on his list of allowed materials, unless you consider Psionics in Core (most DMs, don't, I think). But if so, great. War Mind is excellent for this sort of thing.
Lusden Veharo 10-17-05, 11:22 AM	Rilem, you missed the reason for dipping into Barbarian-it's not Rage. Deepwarden requires 5 ranks of Survival, Barbarian has that on its list. Uncanny Dodge, a d12 hit die, +10 feet movement, and important skills are the big draws of Barbarian, though it's not a class that I like to include. Dwarven Defender gets Uncanny Dodge too, but it's nice to get it much earlier and the required level to flank him stacks. Also, the character goes from Neutral to Lawful, not Chaotic to Lawful. A Barbarian has non-lawful as its requirement, not chaotic.
rilem 10-17-05, 11:41 AM	... Deepwarden requires 5 ranks of Survival...Also, the character goes from Neutral to Lawful, not Chaotic to Lawful. A Barbarian has non-lawful as its requirement, not chaotic. Any predetermined alignment change is inherently cheesy — neutral-to-lawful makes no difference in this regard. You're saying "my PC feels this way, but later he'll feel THIS way, even though I have no idea what his experiences will be between now and then." Your DM may allow it, but some don't and thus it's frowned upon on the C/O board. That doesn't mean you can't do it; it's just a red-flag issue. Regarding survival, HP — I'm well aware of these aspects. But there are other ways to get them (fighter sub levels, dwarf paragon levels, Cleric with the travel domain, etc.) that don't require you to lose an important class ability like rage. (And your Bbn wouldn't get Uncanny Dodge, by the way — Wolf Totem replaces Improved Trip for Uncanny Dodge at level 2).
feng the red dragon 10-17-05, 12:46 PM	take a barbarian give him wyrmskin clothing +6 to armor class, amulet of natural armor+5,bracers of armor +8, 2 rings of protection +5, a dex of 18for +4, and throw him into battle with his 43 armor class without armor
rilem 10-17-05, 12:59 PM	Knowing your stats would help. And are Psionics OK?
Lusden Veharo 10-17-05, 01:29 PM	If you mean me, we'll be rolling and I haven't rolled yet. Psionics are a no go, since they're not on the approved list. If you mean the last guy, he was giving advice, though that's not at all a tank, more of a damage machine with some AC. And yes, I did forget that I'm subbing out Uncanny Dodge. Personally, I see a planned alignment change as no cheesier than many of the class combinations that are tossed about around here, especially when it fits EXTREMELY well with a class you add. Placing Barbarian before Cleric, then shifting to Lawful when you take cleric, fits thematically and is just as defensible as taking Cleric to begin with.
Medicelious-Melharmonac 10-17-05, 01:47 PM	Try something like this Assuming 20 Dex, 20 Con, 26 Wis See Divine Metamagic (Persistent) threads Dwarf Cleric 18 / Deepwarden 2 Earth and Travel Size = -1 Dex = +4 (+1 with Iron Body) Con = +5 Monk's Belt = +7 Greater Luminous Armor = +8 (+12 vs Evil) = HRS/level Deflection: +5 Ring Natural armor = +4 (Righteous Might) = Persistent DR 15/Evil (Righteous Might) DR 15/Adamantine (Iron Body) If you are willing to take the Negatives, Persistent Iron Body is very nice. You end up +14 Strength from IB and RM Grab a gauntlet of rust and go to town. AC: 39 + DR 15/Evil + DR 15/Adamantine Iron Body - Earth 8 You gain damage reduction 15/adamantine. You are immune to blindness, critical hits, ability score damage, deafness, disease, drowning, electricity, poison, stunning, and all spells or attacks that affect your physiology or respiration, because you have no physiology or respiration while this spell is in effect. You take only half damage from acid and fire of all kinds. However, you also become vulnerable to all special attacks that affect iron golems. You gain a +6 enhancement bonus to your Strength score, but you take a –6 penalty to Dexterity as well (to a minimum Dexterity score of 1), and your speed is reduced to half normal.
rilem 10-17-05, 01:57 PM	Nope, I meant you. If you haven't rolled yet, I'd almost advise you to consider something other than a DeepWarden/DD combinations. Here's why: DeepWarden is (as you note) tricky to get into, so the payoff of Con-to-AC has to be worth it (I would say Con of 6 points higher than Dex, minimum). Yet you already need a Dex of at least 13 (for combat reflexes and for the Dodge requirement of DD). Your build also calls for high strength and a decent wisdom. So you really are counting on Con20, Dex14, Str16, Wis 13. Charisma is NOT unimportant; not if you have the chance to get Divine Shield or Divine Power, so you can't really dump that, either. So as you can see, DW/DD/Divine Class trippers are pretty multiple-ability-dependent. Better make sure your stats can justify it. Here's the Deepwarden thread, btw. Best PrC tank EVAR (http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=290184&origin=) Straight (or nearly straight) cleric could be a good option, as noted. Also Hammer of Moradin. Or: Fighter2/Pal4/Templar4/Kensai8/DwarvenDefender2 Gets mettle and a concentration-based reflex save, good number of HP
PhaedrusXY 10-17-05, 03:42 PM	Wolf Totem, from Unearthed Arcana, though there's an Unapproachable East (FR) variant that lets you get the same thing at 1st level. The UE version is actually better. It gives you a +4 bonus to Trip that stacks with Improved Trip. It costs a feat, though, whereas the UA version doesn't. I'd say that the "Ultimate Tank" would need four levels of Warshaper for fast healing, immunity to crits, and +4 to Con (and whatever else it gets... I forget).