Best Dual Wielder [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Dual Wielder [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
anamiac
06-28-06, 09:16 PM I would like to know what you all think of my 12th level two weapon Human fighter build. Starting stats: 14str 16dex 16con 12int 11wis 12cha. I put all 3 ability increases into dex.
Feats: Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Greater Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Weapon Specializataion (Rapier)
Greater Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
Improved Critical (Rapier)
Power Critical (From complete Warrior)
Weapon Finesse
Quick Draw
Combat Reflexes
Two weapon Fighting
Improved Two weapon Fighting
Two weapon Defense
Oversized Two weapon fighting (From complete Adventurur)

My 48,000 starting gold went to buy two adamantine rapiers, one a flaming burst blade and the other unenchanted. I also got some nice Mythral Armor.

Now the Question is, Can any of you make a better two weapon fighter with this much starting money and these somewhat crummy stat rolls? All classes, races, and feats are allowed, but the only books allowed are Core and the complete series.
LogicNinja
06-28-06, 09:27 PM Honestly, that's a pretty shoddy fighter. He can't really do anything but stab things with two rapiers, and he doesn't stab them very hard.

So here's a question. What do you want the character to do? "Fighting with two rapiers" is not only silly-looking, but pretty impractical. TWF is a poor choice for pure fighters unless you have some decent source of bonus damage.

Do you want to focus on tanking or dealing damage or even battlefield control? How attached are you to two rapiers, or even TWF in general? Can you move your stats around?
anamiac
06-28-06, 09:54 PM I can move the stats around. Right now he gets +19/14/9 attack with his right hand, dealing (d6 fire) + (d6+7 adamantine) or (d6+d10 fire)+(2d6+14 adamantine) on a crit
while his left hand gets a +18/13 for (d6+6 adamantine) and (2d6+12 adamantine) on a crit. (don't forget the crit range is 15-20 and he gets a +4 to the crit confirm)

We will mostly be fighting creatures from other planes, so I think that means alot of my foes might have damage reduction of one kind or another, but I'm not sure.

I sadly don't know whether I should focus more on defending the party or taking out opponents, as I don't know what everyone else in the party will be playing. I have focused mostly on dealing damage, but with 119hp and 25ac I can take more than most. The two weapons don't have to be rapiers, and I could save the oversized weapon feat if I changed them to Kukri. But I like the 15-20x2 threat range I get with improved criticals. They also should both be the same if I want to take advantage of Weapon focus and Weapon specialization feats.
GaffeR
06-28-06, 10:13 PM Honestly, two weapon fighting without any source of extra damage is a poor way to deal damage. TWF becomes much more attractive with extra damage bonuses like sneak attack, favored enemies, etc.

I'm sure you're going for a stylistic approach, but you might want to consider a two-handed weapon and some power attack chains. Leap attack, shock trooper, combat brute and power attack can deal some devastating damage. Crunch the numbers and compare.

If you wanted a TWFer, give Dervish a look (assuming you can use PrCs and multiclass). Maybe with a Ranger or Scout lead in? Ranger could be good with Outsiders as a favored enemy, plus you get TWF for free.
Caelic
06-28-06, 10:31 PM So here's a question. What do you want the character to do? "Fighting with two rapiers" is not only silly-looking, but pretty impractical.

Hey, now, I have to take issue with that--I fence case on a regular basis, and I don't think I look any sillier than normal!
moomooacow
06-28-06, 10:42 PM Oversized fighting is by far the worst choice anyone can ever take if they're not of small size. First off, I doubt any GM is gonna start putting Large sized Rapiers on Minotaurs or Demons...I mean c'mon; your chance of ever getting a magical Large sized Rapier is zero. Also, with the plethera of other amazing fighter feats, it's just a wasted feat.

Check out the 6:1 build, which complements this one well, and build from there. Also, I wouldn't attempt to try to be a major damage dealer within a party, spell-casters will blow you out of the water every time - even the most poorly built ones.

When building a fighter keep in mind that it's your job to stay alive, not only kill people. Think about getting Improved Trip and spring attack and Combat Reflexes, if you can neutralize your opponents along with two-weapon fighting you're a much greater asset to the party.
Encard
06-28-06, 11:05 PM From what I recall, there IS a historical two-rapier style of combat...

I have to agree, though, that this character isn't quite as good as it could be. You might want to at least consider the Melee Weapon Mastery feat (PHB2) - +2 to attack and damage with weapons of a chosen damage type is pretty nice if you're already going with something like this. If you're not too attached to double-rapiers and straight fighter (are you aiming for Weapon Supremacy and other high-end fighter feats?), consider switching to daggers or kukris and going with Invisible Blade, or scimitars and Dervish. Champion of Corellon Larethian and Swashbuckler dips might also prove attractive, if you want a mmore Dex/Int-based character.

This was assuming all you wanted to do was stab people with two weapons, of course... Personally, I'd prefer to have a bit more versatility/battlefield control in a build, but it's your call.
Shadow_Fox_Deepwood_Arche
06-28-06, 11:46 PM Oversized fighting is by far the worst choice anyone can ever take if they're not of small size. First off, I doubt any GM is gonna start putting Large sized Rapiers on Minotaurs or Demons...I mean c'mon; your chance of ever getting a magical Large sized Rapier is zero. Also, with the plethera of other amazing fighter feats, it's just a wasted feat.

Check out the 6:1 build, which complements this one well, and build from there. Also, I wouldn't attempt to try to be a major damage dealer within a party, spell-casters will blow you out of the water every time - even the most poorly built ones.

When building a fighter keep in mind that it's your job to stay alive, not only kill people. Think about getting Improved Trip and spring attack and Combat Reflexes, if you can neutralize your opponents along with two-weapon fighting you're a much greater asset to the party.

I dont think you understand what Oversized Two Weapon Fighting does. It allows you to treat a one handed weapon as a light weapon when held in your off hand so you only suffer a -2 penalty for dual wielding two one handed weapons instead of the normal -4.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
anamiac 06-28-06, 09:16 PM	I would like to know what you all think of my 12th level two weapon Human fighter build. Starting stats: 14str 16dex 16con 12int 11wis 12cha. I put all 3 ability increases into dex. Feats: Weapon Focus (Rapier) Greater Weapon Focus (Rapier) Weapon Specializataion (Rapier) Greater Weapon Specialization (Rapier) Improved Critical (Rapier) Power Critical (From complete Warrior) Weapon Finesse Quick Draw Combat Reflexes Two weapon Fighting Improved Two weapon Fighting Two weapon Defense Oversized Two weapon fighting (From complete Adventurur) My 48,000 starting gold went to buy two adamantine rapiers, one a flaming burst blade and the other unenchanted. I also got some nice Mythral Armor. Now the Question is, Can any of you make a better two weapon fighter with this much starting money and these somewhat crummy stat rolls? All classes, races, and feats are allowed, but the only books allowed are Core and the complete series.
LogicNinja 06-28-06, 09:27 PM	Honestly, that's a pretty shoddy fighter. He can't really do anything but stab things with two rapiers, and he doesn't stab them very hard. So here's a question. What do you want the character to do? "Fighting with two rapiers" is not only silly-looking, but pretty impractical. TWF is a poor choice for pure fighters unless you have some decent source of bonus damage. Do you want to focus on tanking or dealing damage or even battlefield control? How attached are you to two rapiers, or even TWF in general? Can you move your stats around?
anamiac 06-28-06, 09:54 PM	I can move the stats around. Right now he gets +19/14/9 attack with his right hand, dealing (d6 fire) + (d6+7 adamantine) or (d6+d10 fire)+(2d6+14 adamantine) on a crit while his left hand gets a +18/13 for (d6+6 adamantine) and (2d6+12 adamantine) on a crit. (don't forget the crit range is 15-20 and he gets a +4 to the crit confirm) We will mostly be fighting creatures from other planes, so I think that means alot of my foes might have damage reduction of one kind or another, but I'm not sure. I sadly don't know whether I should focus more on defending the party or taking out opponents, as I don't know what everyone else in the party will be playing. I have focused mostly on dealing damage, but with 119hp and 25ac I can take more than most. The two weapons don't have to be rapiers, and I could save the oversized weapon feat if I changed them to Kukri. But I like the 15-20x2 threat range I get with improved criticals. They also should both be the same if I want to take advantage of Weapon focus and Weapon specialization feats.
GaffeR 06-28-06, 10:13 PM	Honestly, two weapon fighting without any source of extra damage is a poor way to deal damage. TWF becomes much more attractive with extra damage bonuses like sneak attack, favored enemies, etc. I'm sure you're going for a stylistic approach, but you might want to consider a two-handed weapon and some power attack chains. Leap attack, shock trooper, combat brute and power attack can deal some devastating damage. Crunch the numbers and compare. If you wanted a TWFer, give Dervish a look (assuming you can use PrCs and multiclass). Maybe with a Ranger or Scout lead in? Ranger could be good with Outsiders as a favored enemy, plus you get TWF for free.
Caelic 06-28-06, 10:31 PM	So here's a question. What do you want the character to do? "Fighting with two rapiers" is not only silly-looking, but pretty impractical. Hey, now, I have to take issue with that--I fence case on a regular basis, and I don't think I look any sillier than normal!
moomooacow 06-28-06, 10:42 PM	Oversized fighting is by far the worst choice anyone can ever take if they're not of small size. First off, I doubt any GM is gonna start putting Large sized Rapiers on Minotaurs or Demons...I mean c'mon; your chance of ever getting a magical Large sized Rapier is zero. Also, with the plethera of other amazing fighter feats, it's just a wasted feat. Check out the 6:1 build, which complements this one well, and build from there. Also, I wouldn't attempt to try to be a major damage dealer within a party, spell-casters will blow you out of the water every time - even the most poorly built ones. When building a fighter keep in mind that it's your job to stay alive, not only kill people. Think about getting Improved Trip and spring attack and Combat Reflexes, if you can neutralize your opponents along with two-weapon fighting you're a much greater asset to the party.
Encard 06-28-06, 11:05 PM	From what I recall, there IS a historical two-rapier style of combat... I have to agree, though, that this character isn't quite as good as it could be. You might want to at least consider the Melee Weapon Mastery feat (PHB2) - +2 to attack and damage with weapons of a chosen damage type is pretty nice if you're already going with something like this. If you're not too attached to double-rapiers and straight fighter (are you aiming for Weapon Supremacy and other high-end fighter feats?), consider switching to daggers or kukris and going with Invisible Blade, or scimitars and Dervish. Champion of Corellon Larethian and Swashbuckler dips might also prove attractive, if you want a mmore Dex/Int-based character. This was assuming all you wanted to do was stab people with two weapons, of course... Personally, I'd prefer to have a bit more versatility/battlefield control in a build, but it's your call.
Shadow_Fox_Deepwood_Arche 06-28-06, 11:46 PM	Oversized fighting is by far the worst choice anyone can ever take if they're not of small size. First off, I doubt any GM is gonna start putting Large sized Rapiers on Minotaurs or Demons...I mean c'mon; your chance of ever getting a magical Large sized Rapier is zero. Also, with the plethera of other amazing fighter feats, it's just a wasted feat. Check out the 6:1 build, which complements this one well, and build from there. Also, I wouldn't attempt to try to be a major damage dealer within a party, spell-casters will blow you out of the water every time - even the most poorly built ones. When building a fighter keep in mind that it's your job to stay alive, not only kill people. Think about getting Improved Trip and spring attack and Combat Reflexes, if you can neutralize your opponents along with two-weapon fighting you're a much greater asset to the party. I dont think you understand what Oversized Two Weapon Fighting does. It allows you to treat a one handed weapon as a light weapon when held in your off hand so you only suffer a -2 penalty for dual wielding two one handed weapons instead of the normal -4.