Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pascalnz 01-11-04, 09:28 PM	I was just thinking about the best build up to dwarven defender and wanted some critique ... thanks. lvl1 ranger 2fighter 3ranger 4fighter 5ranger 6horizon walker[for the immunity to fatigue ability so that the character can sleep in heavy armour,eventually adamantium.] 7exoticweapon master[the uncanny blow ability] 8 dwarven defender till forever the feats I chose were weapon focus ,dwarven waraxe dodge, toughness, mobility, spring attack. with endurance and track as bonus feats. this build makes sure that spot and listen will be kept to a maximum and that there will never be a problem of being caught without your armour on. also there is only a loss of one feat over the pure fighter for 7 levels before. I'd love any thoughts on a build which could be better than this as a build up to Dwarven defender. thankyou
Master of the Squirrel's 01-11-04, 11:28 PM	What's with the mobility and spring attack? The point of the Dwarven Defender is to go into the middle of combat and unleash hell. Unless, of course, that was on route to Whirlwind Attack, which makes more sense. Also, though Ranger levels are nice for the spot and search, they are also d8 HD. I guess technically it's made up for in the fact that the DD has a d12 HD, but you will be wanting as many HP's as possible. If your DM allows alignment changes, try going for Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Dwarven Defender 10. This gives you extra hitpoints, rage for the big fights, and an interesting backstory, which I'll leave to your imagination. :)
da chicken 01-12-04, 12:09 AM	I still prefer Paladin 3/Fighter 4/DD X. Don't bother with Mobility. Just get a Tower Shield and take cover before you move!
pascalnz 01-12-04, 12:12 AM	I just read spring attack and it says it doesn't work in heavy armour so remove mobility and spring attack. tumble would be fun though as dwarves can use it in any armour. and if you allow cosmopoliton oyu could have it in class. so what feats should I take? maybe mobility and elusive target? combat expertise and power attack? close quarters fighting and improved toughness? anything inspired would be great thanks :) I also generally dont'worry too much about the loss of ... maybe 4 hps by not taking d10 classes considering by tenth level[if the character had 22 con , magic items and maybe a stat rise thorugh level] the dwarf will have 113 hps without the hit die themselves added...so 3 or 4 more hp isn't going to break the bank. cripes in third ed I had a gnomish wizard with 119 hp's at level ten {took toughness and a toad familiar and began with 19 con] way more than anyone else in the party and it was more than enough :) as an aside for any heavy melle character, spring attack is usefull though[or good use of tumble] being stomped down by a dragon or other large creature using large and in charge is bad :). the same with getting tripped by aao's as well[though dwarves are stable so.. they have a chance]
Fiendish Dire Weasel 01-12-04, 02:57 AM	Very tired right now, so here is a few random Dwarved Defender thoughts: I like Ftr4/Clr4/DDefender10/Whatever2 and Ftr1/Clr9/DDefender10 are both good builds I think, it adds more to your character than just melee. Ftr10/DDefender10 is good too (order is a matter of taste), the extra Fighter feats are very handy. Mithral full plate is probably better than Adamantine. With Endurance you can sleep in the Mithral plate, you get better AC from it with the higher max dex (probably want good dex anyways, see below) and the DR from the Adamantine doesn't stack with the Dwarven Defender's DR. I think Dex is good for a Dwarven Defender, first for extra AC with Mithral armor, second it's handy for Combat Reflexes, and for the Dex15 requirment for Deft Opportunist. I'm big on the Combat Reflexes/Deft Opportunist combo for AoOs in general, combined with Close-Combat Fighting it helps avoid obnoxious grappling bad guys too. Also, since you need Toughness and you're a Dwarf, shoot for a 20 Con ASAP and pick up Roll With It from Savage Species.
Lord Arkhaven 01-12-04, 10:27 AM	I have played a Dwarf from 1st Level to Fighter 8/DD 8 (and still going strong.) Max. out Craft (Armoursmithing) so that you can make your own armour. Like FDW said, Mithril Fullplate allows you to Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack. Just this weekend I went into Defensive Stance and Whirlwind Attacked the four frost giants that thought it wise to surround me. I was dealing a total of about 170 damage per round as well as providing a flanker for the other fighter and the rogue.
Rurik_Torunn 01-13-04, 09:07 AM	If you want to be a straight forward tank, I would also stick with the paladin levels rather than ranger. As stated above, the Endurance feat already allows you to sleep in mithral full-plate. If you prefer the ranger-route, like I do with my "gonna-be-DD" you should probably consider a high dexterity score and Two-Weapon-Fighting. It's not THE tank character, sure, but it's a very good fighter who's gonna have a good AC (DD-levels and DEX) and will do a lot of damage thanks to the extra attacks. The main Problem with this build is, however, that if you use the ranger to get Two-Weapon-Fighting as class-feat, you'll be limited to light armor. As said, it's a very good overall fighter, but not such a good tank. Whatever you do, I hope you have a lot of fun with your DD, I have (with mine). :)
Lord Arkhaven 01-13-04, 09:14 AM	If you want to two weapon fight with your shield then stick with fighter levels and take the feats. The DD is a surprisingly feat intense build because your requirements are non-combat and the attractive Whirlwind Attack chain takes a lot of feats (though all of them are very useful to the DD.)
pascalnz 01-13-04, 10:51 AM	thanks for the ideas guys :) it is rather dissapointing that adamantium Dr/- doesn't stack with natural dr/-, apparantly....while it's not very logical in "real life" rules and also because it's non magical I will see if I could convince my Dm to house rule that it does, otherwise I will just have to go mithral fullplate... or possibly dragoncraft fullplate dragonarmour[draconomicon..also counts as medium] the reason I like taking the ranger levels is because[for the loss of a fighter feat and about 3 hp's] it makes the character so much more than a tank , it can track and have maxed out spot and listen , therefore be more of the "sentinal" as the DD seems to be. also in a [very lucky] min max sense if the character started with 20 con it allows another roll with it feat to be taken because endurance is a generall feat that can't be taken as a fighter bonus feat so an 18th level character could have dr18/- and three bonus fighter feats....would be quite odd methinks:)
Snow Savant 01-13-04, 11:25 AM	Lots of good ideas posted here ... but it's hard to make recommendations without knowing your stats. Especially since the Ranger, Paladin, & Cleric options being thrown at you may not be viable if your CHA and WIS scores aren't compatible. Soooo ... let's see those stats. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Funny Slaughter 01-13-04, 11:39 AM	stacking DR/- is a common houserule around here, i think it makes a lot of sense from a point of logic and does not change that much mechanic wise. i like to have paladin5 as a base for DD, a spell, a second smite and also the mount can be worthy. gs Funny
pascalnz 01-13-04, 02:01 PM	ok here are some stats , before racial mods 18 , 15 ,13, 12, 12, 10 so no reall options for pali I don't think.... but an option for megs Dr lol
Snow Savant 01-13-04, 02:41 PM	So .... STR = 18 DEX = 15 CON = 15 INT = 12 WIS = 12 CHA = 8 (Dwarf Mod) *** Paladin is out. And you seem hooked on Ranger levels for character development reasons. So let's go from there. Rgr2 / Ftr4 / ExoticWeaponMaster1 / DwarvenDefender10 Okay, that's a prefix that gives you some Ranger abilities, a good spread of feats, and Uncanny Blow. I personally think you should fight with your Dwarven Waraxe and Shield, no two-handers, no TWF (unless you go Axe/Shield w/Imp. Shield Bash feat). Your feat acquisition will need to be tight and efficient. If certain Ranger skills excite you (you mentioned Spot/Listen, and perhaps Survival for Tracking), think of making the combat sacrifice and taking a Cosmopolitan feat for that skill. That last suggestion is not combat min/max - it's character vanity min/max. :P The last 3 levels of this build could go a million different viable directions, so I'll demure on that for now. Hope this helps! Snow :cloud9:
Jeryg 01-13-04, 02:41 PM	one of the build i like the most is : Fighter 1 (Toughness, Weapon Focus) Fighter 2 (Dodge) Cleric 1 (endurance) Cleric 2 Cleric 3 Horizon Walker 1 (Cumbrous Dodge) Templar 1 Knight of the Middle Circle 1 Dwarven Defender 1 (Roll With it) Dwarven Defender 2 Dwarven Defender 3 Dwarven Defender 4 (Roll With it) Dwarven Defender 5 Dwarven Defender 6 Devoted Defender 1 (alertness) Devoted Defender 2 Devoted Defender 3 Contemplative 1 (Roll With it) Cleric 4 Cleric 5 you get : BAB +17 spellcasting cleric level 6, with 1 prestige domain of your choice (celerity is very nice). weapon spe free from templar damage reduction 6/- all the time, 12/- in defensive stance improved uncanny dodge immunity to all diseases even magical +2 AC bonus from Dwarven def +2 AC bonus from devoted defender devoted defender's defending powers : harms way, deflect attack, defensive strike (all 3 being very usefull to others and to you) blind sight for free from KotMC combat sense +2 (+2 to hit, +2 dodge AC against 1 opponent) from KotMC alot of hit points (const 20 helps) if you wear a full plate mail (which you should), you get this AC : 8 (armor) + 1 (dex) +2 (shield) + 2 (dwarven def) + 2 (devoted def) + 2 (combat sense) +1 (dodge) + 2 (cumbrous dodge) +4 (defensive stance) +3 (fight on the defensive with 5 ranks in tumble). thats AC 37 without any magic bonuses ! (and you have DR 12/-, cannot be flanked) with some equipment, you can easily get this up to AC 50... now a few comments on this build : -because you need alignment change from lawfull neutral to neutral good and because you eventually want the possibility opened to be chaotic neutral, the only way of getting this is by having a true neutral god. -you also need a god with the knowledge domain to get knowledge(geography) as a class skill for HW. -in FR there is Durnathoin who is true neutral and has this domain. -the horizon walker level helps when you take the cumbrous dodge feat (savage species). this feat gives you +2 dodge bonus (stacking with dodge) and you a fatigued after the encounter. but take desert as the first terrain mastery and you are immune to fatigue. you can use cumbrous dodge all the time from now on. +2 AC bonus for free. also, being immune to fatigue means that you can sleep in heavy armor with no penalty.
MarkusH 01-13-04, 02:54 PM	If you are going Horizon Walker, you may want to take Underground to have Darkvision out to 120'. Check with your DM on whether your immune to fatigue will work for Defensive Stance. Some DM's allow it, others don't. If he doesn't, you may want to reconsider Ranger/Horizon Walker If you are going Ranger, you will need to decide whether to take the archery or two-weapon fighting path. Since you want to wield a Dwaren Waraxe, I'd say go for the archery path, and replace Mobility and Spring attack with Point Blank and Precise shot. Dwarven Defender archers really annoy enemies (do we stay at range and get shot to pieces, or close and get whacked by his axe?) If you are going Exotic Weapon Master, look at Show Off. Giving all enemies within 30' -2 to hit for a few rounds is equivilent to giving your allies and yourself +2 AC for a few rounds. Also, check with your DM to see if your waraxe counts as exotic for dwarves. Some DM's consider that since it counts as a martial weapon for a dwarf, it doesn't count for exotic weapon master pre-requisites. I'd probably go 18/13/15/12/12/10, unless you are going archer, in which you may want to consider putting the 15 in Dex instead of Con. Or perhaps not. You definitely need a Dex of at least 13, so you can get Dodge.
Snow Savant 01-13-04, 02:54 PM	Jeryg, He's got a CON of 15 (with Dwarf Mod included), so no Roll With It. He also has a WIS of 12, so no 3rd level Cleric spells. And he wants Ranger levels. Snow
MarkusH 01-13-04, 02:57 PM	Snow, if going Dwarven Defender and you have Ranger levels, you really want Ranger 3 to get that Endurance Pre-Req.
Jeremymc 01-13-04, 03:05 PM	Hasn't anyone else come up with the ultimate "Defense"? Only fighter levels. Only Defender levels. Defenders max out their DR at 6/- but Savage Species has a feat that raises your DR by either 2 or 3 each time you take it. And the feat has NO CAP. You can keep pumping feats into it and have a DR into the double digits. 15? 20? Whatever you like. Now THAT'S defense.
pawsplay 01-13-04, 03:48 PM	There's nothing wrong with straight up Ranger 10/Dwarven Defender 10. Three favored enemies, improved combat style, and evasion. You also have a character with some options. First, you could stick with light armor, maybe some mithril stuff, and use two weapon fighting. You're Super-Ranger! In this case, your AC bonus helps compensate for a slight lack of tankness. Second, you could notice that Dwarven Defenders gain proficiency in all types of armor, and happly strap on the heaviest, most magical stuff you can find, the best shield, and go to town with a dwarven waraxe. Sure, you may not have a Cleric's spells or a Fighter's cool Feat combos, but you're an armored badass with skills, and there's a lot to be said for that. You give up evasion and two-weapon fighting, but not in any irrevocable way, and you can actually switch back and forth between either approach as you like. Take humanoid (orc), giant, and evil outsiders as your favored enemies. You're like a Dwarven Commando Defender. You have no weak Saving Throw areas. Cleric 10/DD 10 also easily qualifies. In this case, you already have armor proficiency, DD grants you dwarven waraxe. Consider Divine Feats that convert turning into combat bonuses. Paladins? We don't need no stinking Paladins. You're a divine casting melee hardass with Damage Reduction and an axe to grind. Praise Moradin, and damnation to our enemies.
pascalnz 01-13-04, 03:54 PM	allrighty :) a few little things . jeryg, the dr given by dwarven defender works regardless of wether your in defensive stance or not ...same for the ac bonus. and also ... you left out the last level of dwarven defender in your build..{DOH!} and three of the in class skills for DD are spot ,listen and sense motive. also to snow savant , the reason I was thinking of ranger , was to get the endurance feat at third level and by taking it at 1st 3rd and 5th level I could keep my spot, listen and sense motive at max charcter development it is , but certainly not the only reason, having maxed spot, listen and sense motive is very powerfull , track is gravy and so is the favoured enemy and weapon style[although it proabably won't be used] paladin could be nice to take 4 or five levels... if I had god stats:) unfortuantly I don't ;( although the eighteen is nice :). the cumbrous dodge reason for horizon walker is sweet though:) thanks! so I could have ranger fighter fanger fighter ranger exotic weapon master and then..... horizon walker.....? anyone got some great flashes for one or two levels of sweet prc? vassal of buhumett from boed might work.. a bit feat heavy but the ranger feats work in it's special armour anyway thanks again for all your thoughts :)
pascalnz 01-13-04, 04:06 PM	ohh crumbs so amny posts while I was writing mine.. oops. I never wanted the anti fatigueness to stop the -2 str after a defending stance , it was just for being able to sleep in heavy armour, and to ignore the penalty for cumbrous dodge. oh yeah the stats I listed can be moved around so the possibility of 20 con and dr 18/- or possibly moreif you allow natural dr to stack with armour dr. as a side note for maximum dr[that's you jerymec :)] the rogue gets bonus [any] feats if it wants at 10 13 16 and 19th level so a gnome ..lol, could get dr 20/- or a draconic or feral templated human could get dr22/-:angel: also the "roll with it" feat can not be taken as a fighter bonus feat. thanks guys
Jeryg 01-13-04, 07:51 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant Jeryg, He's got a CON of 15 (with Dwarf Mod included), so no Roll With It. He also has a WIS of 12, so no 3rd level Cleric spells. And he wants Ranger levels. Snow ok i didnt get that... well, roll with it was used in my build to make a tank character, but those 3 feats can easily be swapped for any offensive feats such as improved critical, EWP etc... (i know you snow like your off hand shield :)) my build only gets level 3 spells at level 20 so he could probably get a tome or something by then... anyway since he wants ranger levels, just swap those last 2 cleric levels with ranger levels... its that easy. its not the ultimate build, but it's a good around character, decently playable in terms of alignment and roleplay and the synergy between dwarven defender and devoted defender is really nice. in any case, i would still keep the level of contemplative. the prestige domain power is really powerfull...
pascalnz 01-13-04, 07:58 PM	what excactly does the celerity domain give you? I think the bonus movement it gives you is an enhancement bonus and therefore can be duped by items. does it give improved initiative or something? thanks guys
eventhorizon 01-14-04, 04:06 PM	Don't know how good it is but I like it. You don't get into DD until a bit later but the Kensai "Withstand" ability makes you less of a sitting duck to reflex save spells. And if you lose your weapon you can always enchant yourself another up to +5. 3.5 Dwarven Defender Paladin 1/ Fighter 4/ Kensai 5/ Dwarven Defender 10. Hit Dice = 10+9D10+10D12(Fixed = 124); BAB = +18/+13/+8/+3; Saves +14/+5/+12; Requirements = Concentration 5, Diplomacy 5, Ride 5. Sources = Core 3.5, Complete Warrior. Race = Dwarf. 1 Pal 1: Aura of good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/Day, Toughness. 2 Pal 1/ Ftr 1: Weapon Focus (Dwarven War Axe). 3 Pal 1/ Ftr 2: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes. 4 Pal 1/ Ftr 3: 5 Pal 1/ Ftr 4: XXX???XXX. 6 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 1: Signature Weapon, Dodge. 7 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 2: Power Surge. 8 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 3: 9 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 4: Ki Projection, Endurance. 10 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 5: Withstand. 11 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 1/ DwD 1: Defensive Stance 1/Day, AC Bonus +1. 12 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 1/ DwD 2: Uncanny Dodge, XXX???XXX. 13 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 1/ DwD 3: Defensive Stance 2/Day. 14 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 1/ DwD 4: Trap Sense +1, AC Bonus +2. 15 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 1/ DwD 5: Defensive Stance 3/Day, XXX???XXX. 16 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 1/ DwD 6: Damage reduction 3/-, Improved Uncanny Dodge. 17 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 1/ DwD 7: Defensive Stance 4/Day, AC Bonus +3. 18 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 1/ DwD 8: Mobile Defence, Trap Sense +2, XXX???XXX. 19 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 1/ DwD 9: Defensive Stance 5/Day. 20 Pal 1/ Ftr 4/ Ken 1/ DwD 10: Damage Reduction 6/-, AC Bonus +4.
Jeryg 01-14-04, 04:11 PM	celerity gives you +2 dex, +10 ft move and +2 init. mysticism is also a good choice : add your charisma bonus to all saves...
Merbeast 01-14-04, 06:49 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant Rgr2 / Ftr4 / ExoticWeaponMaster1 / DwarvenDefender10 Snow :cloud9: I think this loses the min/max charm of taking ranger 3, as that is where you get the "free" endurance feat. I'm a paladin man, myself, but if I were to go into DD from ranger, I'd certainly take ranger 3... Exotic weapon master looks good, but probably as one of those last three levels.
Merbeast 01-14-04, 07:11 PM	I've never played it before, but I was looking at this build for a DD: Fig2/Hex3/OccultSlayer2/DD10/OccultSlayer3 Hexblade gives Arcane Resistance (minimum +1!!!, great for low CHA dwarves) and Mettle. Occult slayer gets loads of protections from magic and anti-caster capabilities. *special bonus section* This build (if you switch OccultSlayer3 with OccultSlayer2) works with RPGA, makes DMs happy (with no level dips in PrCs) and uses only core + complete warrior, which is more accepted than splat books or campaign world specific books (like FR or DragonLance).