Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pyro_cat 11-06-05, 06:12 PM	There's been a bit of a surge of interest in Effigy Master on the board, and I was thinking that a useful tool would be a compliation of people's favourite forms to base Effigies on. Post your faves, and I'll put 'em together here. Just a reminder. Effigies loose all supernatural special attacks, spell like abilities, and extraordinary abilities with a saving throw tied to the base creature's Constitution score. As constructs, they have no Int or Con score, but gain damage reduction, slam attacks, AC and stat bonuses. Abilities tied to Charisma take a huge hit as well. Full details in Complete Arcane. If your suggestion is not a good effigy for a clear reason, then maybe a few lines of explaination wouldn't hurt. Also, no templates. These may look great in theory, but this is supposed to be a resource for real players too, and DMs usually don't stand for that kind of stuff. To get us started (follow my format, if its not terribly inconvienient): Effigy Bases Gibbering Mouther, 4 HD (MM) Fleshraker Dinosaur, 4 HD (MMIII) Manticore, 5 HD (MM) Cloaker, 6 HD (MM) Avalancher, 6HD (MM3) Dusk Giant, 6 HD (HoH) Albeil Soldier, 6 HD (MM2) Wyvern, 7 HD (MM) Giant Octopus, 8 HD (MM) Slasrath, 8 HD (FF) Darktentacles, 9 HD (MMII) Cave Troll, 9 HD (MMIII) Young Red Dragon, 10 HD (MM) Hellwasp Swarm, 12 HD (MM) Urophion, 12 HD (LoM) Firbolg, 13 HD (MMII) Rage Drake, 14 HD (MMIII) Dread Linnorm, 20 HD (MMII)
primetimekiller 11-06-05, 06:21 PM	i like this thead its exactly what i was looking for! so here are my ideas: after cave troll i would say wartroll then filborg urophion(lords of madness) its like a mindflayer with 6 tentacels and a reach of 50' at which it can make touch attacks AND it keeps its extract ability since it doesnt allow a save and its (ex) im not exactly sure but i thing that swarms are a vaild targen for effgies since they count as one creature i wonder if they keep ther distraction and nauseaing abilites would be pretty cool since a effigy always obeys you which the normal swarms that you can summon dont!
Caelic 11-06-05, 06:26 PM	Wartroll would be devastating if it kept Dazing Blow; since it doesn't, I agree that the Cave Troll is a stronger choice.
pyro_cat 11-06-05, 06:34 PM	Alrighty, added those two. Remember to put the HD and source. That's an excellent idea with the swarm thing, but I don't know if it'll work. I don't see why not. Any opinions on that?
pyro_cat 11-06-05, 09:19 PM	:bump: Just once. I promise.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 11-06-05, 09:45 PM	2 things: 1) I comb the CO board a lot as well as the other core boards. I personally havent seen the Effigy Master prestige class on the rise. Any links to the threads that advocate or abuse the Effigy Master's class abilities? 2) I assume that this thread would also be of interest to those that are skeleton and zombie controllers as well. Regarding choice of good candidate creatures that is ------------ I'll have to look through my books tonight and see which creatures look good for effigies.
Xybot 11-06-05, 10:16 PM	Giant Octopus, 8HD MM It seems to me the Giant Octopus from the good old MM is a very nice choice. Since constructs dont need to breath, then an aquatic animal that has a land speed (20) should be just fine as an Effigy. It has Str 20, Dex 15, which become Str 24, Dex 13. Natural Armor goes from +7 to +9, and it would get DR 5/- But the most important thing is, it has reach 10 with 8 tentacle attacks per round, plus a bite. I believe Effigies would get the benefit of the Improved Grab and Constrict (2d8+6+new str). Thats just nasty :plotting: I did have a question about effigies though, and the craft construct feat in general. Could a character use a item like Orange Ioun Stone (+1 caster level) or Ring of Arcane Might, and various spells (like Create Magic Tattoo - PGtF), to meet the caster level prerequisite earlier? Or could a artificer do that? Say to get this Giant Octopus made before level 8, hehe. -Xybot
Inkling 11-06-05, 10:36 PM	I like the young red dragon: only 10HD, Large so you can ride it, and it's just about the fastest thing in the air. But really I only like it because it would be so cool to land in the town square riding a clockwork dragon. Augment him with Rudimentary Intelligence when you turn 12th level (Dragon mag #327) and give him Hover, Wingover, Flyby Attack, and MultiAttack feats to turn him into a flying killing machine. But if you want to take Craft Construct at 6th level, you need lower HD effigies to get started right away: For a great steed for cheap I would go with the Pegasus. At only 4HD it costs only 10k gp to make which makes it cheaper than a Broom of Flying (and it is much faster). Fleshraker dinosaurs (MMIII) make good attack dogs with a decent str and dex and a leaping pounce attack with raking (only 4 HD, Med body so costs only 7k gp each to make).
incubus 11-07-05, 12:01 AM	Remember to add every single ability boosting template to a creature before you create an effigy of it - almost no templates increase HD, and therefore don't make your effigy more expensive. Adding half-dragon gives a hefty boost.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-07-05, 12:37 AM	I like the young red dragon: only 10HD, Large so you can ride it, and it's just about the fastest thing in the air. But really I only like it because it would be so cool to land in the town square riding a clockwork dragon. Augment him with Rudimentary Intelligence when you turn 12th level (Dragon mag #327) and give him Hover, Wingover, Flyby Attack, and MultiAttack feats to turn him into a flying killing machine. Then you can go have a duel with the Supermount. Hm... who would win in a fight between a gnome effighy master with one of these and a halfling with a dragon supermount? Be interesting to see, at least.
primetimekiller 11-07-05, 03:53 AM	i nominate hellwasp swarm 12hd (mm) inhabit(ex) ability (works more or less like animate dead) and also the wyvern 7hd (mm) a large flying dragon with 6 attacks per round available quite early
X-Codes 11-07-05, 04:24 AM	Remember to add every single ability boosting template to a creature before you create an effigy of it - almost no templates increase HD, and therefore don't make your effigy more expensive. Adding half-dragon gives a hefty boost. Read the OP's post. No other templates. Anyway, I personally don't like the effigy master. It's actually pretty comparative, but I don't like it. -1 caster level does give me 4 more HD for effigies, but thats just not really worth it to me, especially when I could get 5 levels of Loremaster or Incantatrix or Artificier instead. Even compared to straight wizard, you get these little bonuses but at the cost of an 8th and a 9th level spell slots. Despite all that, I'm all in favor of the Effigy template in combination with the Craft Construct feat. The earliest possible time to get Craft Construct is level 6, and for mount Pegasus is pretty much the best bet. I like the idea of advancing it to 6 HD as well for an extra +1 on everything plus an extra feat after throwing on Rudimentary Intelligence. Then theres Fleshraker... Oh jeez the Fleshraker... I have to wonder why that creature only has a CR of 2. Not core, however, so a notable from the PHB however would have to be the Dire Wolf. 29 strength is not something to sneeze at when you are level 6. Program it with Rudimentary Intelligence and it gets Power Attack plus Improved Natural Weapon for a +13 (2d6+13) bite attack with a free trip (with a +13 bonus). Now that that's all out of my system, time to get silly. Effigy Winged Gargantuan Monsterous Centipede. While being a mere 12 HD, it is of Gargantuan size and has a perfect fly speed of 60'. It's 27 strength isn't very good for it's size and HD, but allows it to be more than able to carry 9 riders over long distances without tiring. Best to keep it low to the ground or high out of sight, however, as it's 132 HP won't last long against other creatures of similar size. Yes, I know the OP said no templates, but this was something I had to share.
Pinky's brain 11-07-05, 05:50 AM	Hmm, low HD effigies ... Gibbering mouther, 5HD (MM, advanced to large) Manticore, 6 HD (MM) Gibbering mouther cause it's too silly to pass up, and when advanced to large it can grapple decently and use it con drain attacks. Manticore for mobile artillery.
Caelic 11-07-05, 11:50 AM	I'm gonna toss up the Dusk Giant. It's cheese comparable to templates, but the Cannibalize special attack does not have a saving throw associated with it, and is thus technically retained. Build yourself a bunch of 6HD, Medium Least Dusk Giant Effigies, then start feeding them corpses and watch them grow to Huge, 24HD Greater Dusk Giant Effigies. You have just invented the automatic garbage disposal.
lostone 11-07-05, 01:24 PM	What book is the dusk giant in?
lostone 11-07-05, 01:37 PM	1) I comb the CO board a lot as well as the other core boards. I personally havent seen the Effigy Master prestige class on the rise. Any links to the threads that advocate or abuse the Effigy Master's class abilities?A post giving an example of the Template abuse (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6804233&postcount=13). The trick is applying the most templates as possible while legally meeting the requirements (such as only being applied to a magical creature or aberration, etc). It's sick, ends up very powerful for the same cost as a non-templated effigy of the same HD (since Effigies are priced only off of HD, LA is not figured into it). I realize it is off topic for this thread, but he was asking for abuses so I answered. We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic.
Caelic 11-07-05, 01:56 PM	What book is the dusk giant in? Heroes of Horror
primetimekiller 11-07-05, 02:12 PM	another very good creature... darkententacles 9 hd monster manual2 it has twelve slam attacks and it can wield 12 weapons since it is large size it can wield medium sized greatswords... THAT'S TWELVE GREATSWORDS!!! its pretty slow on land (5') but has a swimspeed of 20' quite nice for 9hd..
pyro_cat 11-07-05, 08:40 PM	stuck those on. any more?
SoulGamit 11-07-05, 09:57 PM	Gibbering Mouther, 4HD (SRD) 6 Bite attacks, all con-draining It also gets improved grab and a powerful engulf ability. A quick question, do EX Attacks with a charisma-based save get transfered over?
pyro_cat 11-08-05, 07:10 PM	Gibbering Mouther, 4HD (SRD) 6 Bite attacks, all con-draining It also gets improved grab and a powerful engulf ability. A quick question, do EX Attacks with a charisma-based save get transfered over? I don't see why not, only Int and Con become non-scores. However, the save will be terribly low, as Effigies have 1 charisma; a modifier of -5.
Aufenshauft 11-09-05, 08:57 AM	Well, that's not a bad thing, as that effegy isn't going to be the only one in the front ranks fighting. Make sure your fighters are deaf. On the other hand, I think that is a supernatural ability and gets lost anyhow.
Mystic Mouse 11-09-05, 10:38 AM	True, all Supernatural abilities go away, as well as any Extraordinary abilities based on Con. Also, although it does not forbid the use of templated creatures, their use simply causes to much cheese. I would almost suggest an errata to include "no templated creatures" in the entry. Otherwise it gets nasty, even at low levels, and gets nastier as things progress.
Hargert 11-09-05, 02:03 PM	One other that I have always liked and scales well is hydra and it gets better and better as you advance it. Once you advance it some it gets bigger and gets reach as well.
pyro_cat 11-09-05, 07:58 PM	One other that I have always liked and scales well is hydra and it gets better and better as you advance it. Once you advance it some it gets bigger and gets reach as well. Can you advance an Effigy after it's built? Upgrade them, in a sense. If so, it would be really cool to have a hydra that you add heads to as you level up, but if not, it doesn't seem to be an amazing choice. Not bad, but not amazing.
Quenditar 11-09-05, 08:57 PM	A lot of the coolness of hydras is their regrowing heads. I don't think I could get a robot hydra regrowing heads past my DM. Making new heads, just maybe, but regrowing them?
pyro_cat 11-10-05, 07:36 PM	A lot of the coolness of hydras is their regrowing heads. I don't think I could get a robot hydra regrowing heads past my DM. Making new heads, just maybe, but regrowing them? Very true, though an upgradeable hydra is still pretty good. Like, just pay the extra money to add 1 HD, and you've got a Effigy that levels with you. Have a feeling you can't do this though. Oh well. Any others?
primemover003 11-11-05, 09:33 PM	I allowed the Wiz IMC to upgrade the Effigy, he saved in cost but he paid the same "total time" as he had to rebuild the body up. He upgraded the Red 10 HD dragon up to 14 HD by 16th level (from 8th). He wasn't an effigy master though... just took Craft Construct. That Dragon was murder. My campaign featured a majority of Humanoid enemies (armies of Gnolls and Goblinoids). That Party was already a hefty 7 PC's + the Dragon. It was like full scale battle! One weakpoint... anything that could force a Reflex save and continuous damage. Blade Barrier totally scrapped the effigy because of the Dragons low dex.
pyro_cat 11-12-05, 11:05 AM	I allowed the Wiz IMC to upgrade the Effigy, he saved in cost but he paid the same "total time" as he had to rebuild the body up. He upgraded the Red 10 HD dragon up to 14 HD by 16th level (from 8th). He wasn't an effigy master though... just took Craft Construct. That Dragon was murder. My campaign featured a majority of Humanoid enemies (armies of Gnolls and Goblinoids). That Party was already a hefty 7 PC's + the Dragon. It was like full scale battle! One weakpoint... anything that could force a Reflex save and continuous damage. Blade Barrier totally scrapped the effigy because of the Dragons low dex. That's a good point, about the reflex saves. Is there any way to counteract an Effigy's weaknesses, such as that low reflex save?
Elderich 11-12-05, 11:47 AM	That's a good point, about the reflex saves. Is there any way to counteract an Effigy's weaknesses, such as that low reflex save?Enhace dex? make it the target of a crafted dex enhancement?
Pinky's brain 11-12-05, 12:08 PM	Ring of evasion helps a bit too.
Elderich 11-12-05, 12:15 PM	if you can put it on a ring, why not just craft it in?
Pinky's brain 11-12-05, 01:19 PM	A ring doesn't require houserules.
pyro_cat 11-13-05, 11:45 AM	Are constructs, such as effigies, allowed to benefit from items like a normal character would? I mean, I don't see why not, but I have never seen this issue brought up myself.
Inkling 11-13-05, 01:47 PM	Are constructs, such as effigies, allowed to benefit from items like a normal character would? I mean, I don't see why not, but I have never seen this issue brought up myself.I've heard it argued back and forth, but in my opinion if the construct can activate it or if the item requires no activation, then the construct should be able to use an item. The tougher argument comes with armor. I would say that you could not put more armor on an iron golem or stone golem just like you can't put more armor on a warforged, but if the base creature can wear armor then the effigy of the creature can wear armor too. So if a cave troll can physically wear armor, then the effigy of a cave troll can wear armor too. However, he would take all armor penalties to hit, skill checks, etc because he wouldn't have the armor proficiecy feats. I would say that an effigy would not be able to use a shield at all unless upgraded with Rudimentary Intelligence. Giving your construct the Rudimentary Intelligence augmentation resolves a lot of arguments because then they clearly have some reasoning ability plus you can give them feats in armor proficiency and shield proficiency. Armor would have to be custom made for non-standard-humanoid effigies and would be double cost for a mostly-humanoid base creature like a cave troll and quadruple the cost for an extreme physique like a hydra. This rule is in the DMG or PHB somewhere.
pyro_cat 11-13-05, 03:15 PM	Where is this Rudimentary Intelligence thing? I must confess... I haven't looked into constructs aside from effigies.
Inkling 11-13-05, 03:21 PM	Where is this Rudimentary Intelligence thing? I must confess... I haven't looked into constructs aside from effigies.Dragon Magazine #327 p72
Quenditar 11-13-05, 03:21 PM	Rudimentary Intelligence is in Dragon #327. Personally, I'm very skeptical that it's balanced at the price, but if you can get it past your DM go for it.
hieratical 11-14-05, 11:42 PM	The Guideline I think should be if CR is equal to or greater than HD. You should add CR to the List at top. On that scale Gargoyle comes out rather well. Another way is low HD but ability you need. Giant Bee, for example, has Perfect Manueverability. An advanced eagle may be the lowest HD medium Flyer. (If your Crafter is small, this could be useful)
Stephen Hawking 12-01-05, 05:15 AM	Albeil Soldier (MM2) 6 HD, large, Flies at 90 good, and has grapple stuff going for it. Interesting thing is having it use its flyby attack and grapple a foe, then move upwards and eventually drop them. It can also use weapons per its entry. Avalancher (MM2) 6HD, large. Burrows. I'm going to suggest the humanoid route as well. Ogre (4hd) -> Loxo (5 hd, MM2) -> troll -> wartroll If they die, you build another one and use the same items they were using beforehand. Not sure if this is allowed, but an advanced monster is a good idea as well. Say a 6 HD hippogriff, or whatever else. Manticore for example is a very good base creature at that point, and could make a 16 HD version later. Or make an orc effigy, (17 str base) and have it gear up like a normal character/level up to whatever hit dice (probably 7), and if it dies, then more items to sell or whatever.
Hargert 12-01-05, 11:52 AM	I see no reason why you could not make an advanced version of monsters. The ones given in the book are the lowest level ones. The only requirement is off of HD of creature created. Like the idea of doing a ogre one and gear him up like a normal character.
pyro_cat 12-01-05, 08:13 PM	I see no reason why you could not make an advanced version of monsters. The ones given in the book are the lowest level ones. The only requirement is off of HD of creature created. Like the idea of doing a ogre one and gear him up like a normal character. Yeah, I would think this works, but for the sake of simplicity and consistency, I'm just sticking to base forms that don't have to be advanced to be powerful. That being said, there don't appear to be many suggestions for higher HD creatures. A level 20 Wizard with full Effigy Master levels could be making an effigy with 25 HD (by taking Practiced Spellcaster).
incubus 01-18-06, 08:50 PM	Cloaker. 6hd (MM) Retains those nice ex moan abilities although they're charisma based so the DC will plunge (but see below). It's large size with a high strength and it flies (so you can ride it). Finally - if you're in trouble you can command it to engulf you and take half of all damage destined for you. In fact, you could have one spend each round dis-engulfing you(free) and then readying an action to engulf you at the first sign of incoming damage. As for charisma problems... an effigy is a construct. A construct is, technically, a magical item. Magical items can be made with intelligence. In fact they get nifty powers if you do so.
pyro_cat 01-18-06, 08:58 PM	Cloaker. 6hd (MM) Retains those nice ex moan abilities although they're charisma based so the DC will plunge (but see below). It's large size with a high strength and it flies (so you can ride it). Finally - if you're in trouble you can command it to engulf you and take half of all damage destined for you. In fact, you could have one spend each round dis-engulfing you(free) and then readying an action to engulf you at the first sign of incoming damage. As for charisma problems... an effigy is a construct. A construct is, technically, a magical item. Magical items can be made with intelligence. In fact they get nifty powers if you do so. Done and done. Thanks
SoulGamit 01-18-06, 10:59 PM	were is the precident that constructs are magic items, if I may ask?
robertliguori 01-18-06, 11:59 PM	Craft construct is an item creation feat. Item creation feats enable casters to make magical items of a certian kind. Casters willing to pay the extra cost (1000 gp for the base version) can create intelligent magical items. Also, the slasrath from the Fiend Folio looks very promising. Size large, 8 hd, and an area-effect ability that is basically whirlwind-attack at the end of a charge, dealing double damage, and tearing apart armor. When this is an intelligent slasrath construct with powerful charge, diving charge, and power attack.... Yes, I like the sound of 7d6+28 damage as an area-effect. Yes I do.
Vikjunk 01-19-06, 05:25 PM	Craft construct is an item creation feat. Item creation feats enable casters to make magical items of a certian kind. Casters willing to pay the extra cost (1000 gp for the base version) can create intelligent magical items. I would be wary of giving a construct intelligents through that way. It will end up giving it an ego score so there might be situations that come up were it might refuse to follow your orders. And there is the chance of angering the thing enough so that the DM might end up having fun using that construct against you. It's better to use Rudimentary Intelligence since it's less likely to get out of your control.
Enamel_32 01-19-06, 05:37 PM	The rage drake, (14HD, MMIII) looks pretty good. All but one of its special attacks remain as an effigy... I think it'd make a good mount, certainly more loyal than real rage drakes.
pyro_cat 01-19-06, 08:09 PM	Also, the slasrath from the Fiend Folio looks very promising. Size large, 8 hd, and an area-effect ability that is basically whirlwind-attack at the end of a charge, dealing double damage, and tearing apart armor. When this is an intelligent slasrath construct with powerful charge, diving charge, and power attack.... Yes, I like the sound of 7d6+28 damage as an area-effect. Yes I do. The rage drake, (14HD, MMIII) looks pretty good. All but one of its special attacks remain as an effigy... I think it'd make a good mount, certainly more loyal than real rage drakes. Added.
FromTheShadows 01-20-06, 05:51 PM	Craft construct is an item creation feat. Item creation feats enable casters to make magical items of a certian kind. Casters willing to pay the extra cost (1000 gp for the base version) can create intelligent magical items. I personally don't why this would work. Constructs are creatures, as opposed to objects, like magic items. I'm making an attempt to look for the definitons of both in the SRD to clear things up a bit more. Also, magic items become constructs after their creation, as shown in the intelligent item rules, giving a possible reason why you couldn't make an item intelligent twice. Anyways, I see the fighter as the ultimate effigy base. Yes, a reason why the fighter could be useful in optimization other than a dip and in a way that couldn't really be replaced with another class. The first is that you lose all of your class-based hit dice. Why is that good? A cheap price, for the most part. This works better if you have a base race that could have its HD advanced, so a slight breeze doesn't knock over your minions. Less of a concern if you mass produce an army, though. The second, and probably best, is that the class mentions that you only lose class-based HD, with no mention of class-based abilities. So you have a nice BAB despite the HD loss. It does specifically mention that you keep proficiencies, so you don't have to have your soldiers forced to punch people. The DR also mentions that it works on the base creatures HD, not the new HD, so enjoy your 10/adamantine DR. The third, working in tandem with the second reason, is that you can have a massive number of feats for a first level character. Notice the feat clause: you keep all feats that improve your attacks. By making some careful choices, you can get a 1-HD effigy with full BAB and tons of feats. Of course, you could also have something other than mindless bruisers this way. Use the brutal throw feat with a squad of effigies that focus on thrown weapons, or grab an elf to offset the dex penalty and make a few sniper drones. Actually, other classes could be good in this aspect; rogues with sneak attack come to mind for one, or barbarian shock troops. So, anyone see any holes in my logic here? I'll admit that I'm not in the best thinking shape after having my brain fried by midterms.
Pinky's brain 01-20-06, 06:17 PM	Yeah I noticed that before. Small correction though, the BAB is based purely on it's actual HD. For the rest I agree. By RAW you would keep NA, movement modes, speed increases, feats which improve your attacks, natural attacks and ex attacks not based on con granted by class levels. So not only can you put infinite templates on your effigy gaining abilities without increasing cost, but also infinite class levels. Few DMs are going to let it fly though :)
FromTheShadows 01-20-06, 07:29 PM	Yeah I noticed that before. Small correction though, the BAB is based purely on it's actual HD. For the rest I agree. By RAW you would keep NA, movement modes, speed increases, feats which improve your attacks, natural attacks and ex attacks not based on con granted by class levels. So not only can you put infinite templates on your effigy gaining abilities without increasing cost, but also infinite class levels. Few DMs are going to let it fly though :) Yeah, I wasn't so sure on the BAB thing, seeing as the text says to "Recalculate BAB, saves, feats, and skills as described below", but I needed someone else to clarify that. However, it is still a nice idea. Just find a famous warrior or train one of your own and make an army of tin soldiers based on his design. I can just see a character with a robotic dwarven firing squad now...
Malcoren 03-20-06, 03:38 AM	Anyways, I see the fighter as the ultimate effigy base. Yes, a reason why the fighter could be useful in optimization other than a dip and in a way that couldn't really be replaced with another class. Just find a famous warrior or train one of your own and make an army of tin soldiers based on his design. So not only can you put infinite templates on your effigy gaining abilities without increasing cost, but also infinite class levels. Few DMs are going to let it fly though Let's see... how about NO. Look at the Effigy template. See the line under Hit Dice and Hit Points that reads... Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1). That line ruins your whole "Jango Fett" line of reasoning. Since it's at the beginning of the template, before all the other stuff is applied, you lose all bonus feats and whatnot from those levels. Because they got replaced. One could conceivably argue that you were basing your design off a non-Hit Die creature with a first level of Fighter, just to squeeze in two attack-related feats... but that's it. You claim you don't lose those class abilities. But, clearly, you do lose those abilities because you lost the class levels. Otherwise, you have to use the same sophistry to allow similar scenarios for PC's in your game... such as the PC who gets level drained. He loses his level, but nowhere in the level-draining attack's description does it state he loses that level's class abilities! Fighters would willingly forgo a Fort save here and there, because they could stack up on level-breaking amounts of combat feats so long as they got bumped down from even to odd level and just repeated the process. For that matter, using the same line of reasoning works for monsters, too. "Yeah, this NPC Fighter, he got level drained about 8 times at the past when he was 4th level. So he's got 8 extra combat feats. But dont' worry, he still has the same CR as you!" Indeed. No, if you lose class levels, the abilities go, too. Nice try, though. --- --- --- Now that's done, I'd like to nominate a couple other creatures for the list. Crack open the new Tome of Magic to the end of the Pact Magic section and check out the Deadly Dancer. A medium, high-Dex, 3 attacks + Whirlwind Attack capable bladed monster of sheer coolness. Check out the artwork, and imagine that... all metal. ;) Check out Sandstorm for the Marrulurk. Sure, the Death Attack won't have a high DC, but you've got constructs with Sneaking ability. Send out piles of those bad boys as flankers!
Pinky's brain 03-20-06, 04:13 AM	When you die or get energy drained you explicitly loose a level not merely a hit die.
EpicEvokerElf 12-22-06, 05:39 PM	WERE TEMPLATES ALLOWED, I'd suggest a Jarilith, MMII, (?) HD, with some Outsider template that makes it eligible for Effigy-Izing.
Necromas 12-23-06, 02:08 PM	What about ones that would make good looking mecha suits? And what exactly does rudimentary intelligence do/cost?
pyro_cat 01-21-07, 03:26 PM	Like most of the lists and stuff I started, I don't have the time or inclination to update them, but I feel like it would be great if someone takes the information already here and updates it, then finds something useful to do with it.