Post/Author/DateTime	Post
grey muse 01-29-05, 04:32 PM	I'm about to play a Disciple of Dispater from level 1, and I'm trying to figure out my best entry vector. I'll be playing an evil human (either LE or NE.) My stats are 32 point buy; I'm looking to dump Chr and probably have Wis at 10 or 12. Int needs to be 13+ as a prereq for the PrC, most other stats will be 14 or 16 (for Str and Con.) My choice so far is between: Mnk 2/Ftr 2/Hex 3 and Barb 2/Ftr 1 (2)/Hex 3 It's a tough call; the second build lets me get in a level earlier, but I'd be sorely tempted to take that second level of fighter anyway. Pros/Cons: Monk build Pros: - Bonus to Ref and Will saves (Will synergizes will with Mettle) - Evasion - Good skills - Useful bonus feats - Spot as class skill Cons: - Lower hp - loss of BAB - no weap/armor profs until level 3 - poor starting gold Pros/Cons: Barb build Pros: - better hp (6 hp average after level 2) - rage - uncanny dodge (dex to AC) - weapon & armor proficiencies from level 1 Cons: - None of the neat abilities from the monk choice above I'll be playing the primary tank in a pary of 7. We'll also have another monk (initially) and a cleric or two to serve as tanks at lower levels. Advice? grey muse
Sir Gummibaerchen 01-29-05, 04:58 PM	I always liked Ftr1/Hex3/PoT2 as a prefix. (PoT being Paladin of Tyranny from UA). If you go for level 20, I'd go Ftr1/Hex3/Pot2/DoD8/Blk6 (Blk=Blackguard). Charisma to saves twice, and good base saves (19/8/10) to boot, a few spells and a nice evil theme...
grey muse 01-29-05, 05:20 PM	While many around the min/max boards take double Chr to saves as canon, it's somewhat questionable as to whether or not they actually stack, much less whether any sane DM would allow them to. (This DM doesn't, and I don't in my own game.) Also, the fact that my Chr will ultimately be fairly low (due to some mad MAD) somewhat negates the utility of those abilities. I considered ditching hexblade altogether, but Mettle is pretty nice. grey muse
catharz 01-29-05, 05:22 PM	I always liked Ftr1/Hex3/PoT2 as a prefix. (PoT being Paladin of Tyranny from UA). If you go for level 20, I'd go Ftr1/Hex3/Pot2/DoD8/Blk6 (Blk=Blackguard). Charisma to saves twice, and good base saves (19/8/10) to boot, a few spells and a nice evil theme... What exactly is the point of Cha to saves with a charisma of 8? Anyway, I would fit 2 levels of fighter somewhere in the build (although maybe one after DoD 20). I like the Monk build better, assuming you can get worthwhile feats (Like, not stunning fist or Improved grapple).
The Thing in the Night 01-29-05, 05:34 PM	With Disciple of dispater, you need feats. The potential 9-20 threat range of the scimitar is too powerful not to TWF. A swashbuckler3/hexblade3/fighter2/psychic warrior2/dervish2/disciple of dispater8 makes an amazing light melee fighter. Str can stay at 10, focus on int, con, and dex.
Welcome 01-29-05, 06:34 PM	Actually I was thinking of that PrC lately and I kind of realized Power Attack damage was also multiplied on crits. So while TWF might be good, I have a vision of a Frenzied Berserker, Battle Jumping with a Valorous scythe and critical hitting. That's like, what, a 20-to-1 return on your power attack ?
grey muse 01-29-05, 06:58 PM	I was originally planning a higher Chr build (~14-16), which would've made Chr to saves useful. As it is, though, it's kind of lackluster. One nice thing about Hexblade is that you're guaranteed a minimum of +1; since it's point buy, I'll take one less to saves for the extra 6 stat points between an 8 and a 14. Why don't you think Imp. Grapple and Stunning Fist are worth it? I was thinking of taking Imp. Grapple anyway, which was part of why I started looking at the monk. That dervish build is solid, but there are a couple of problems. One is that we don't use psionics, though that's still pretty strong with a couple monk levels in place of PsyWar. The bigger issue is that I'm going to have little control over my gear. We're playing through World's Largest Dungeon; I want to do as little as possible in terms of specializing in a weapon, because I'll have first pick on magic weapons (as the tank) and want to be able to use the best gear I find. This DM is generally down on purchasing magic items, and specifically in this adventure, so I'm probably going to be at the mercy of what's available in the module. Having a 10 Str would make me useless as a damage dealer until level 3 (not that big a deal) and completely reliant on having a good light weapon on-hand. I have a hard time justifying that as the primary tank, but maybe it bears some consideration. I looked at adding Swash 3 into the build, but I think I get more mileage with other classes, at least early in the build. The game may go epic, so something like Mnk 2/Ftr 2/Hex 3/ Disc. Disp 10/Dervish 1/Swash 3, with epic progression in Disciple, may be pretty solid. I don't have any illusions about surviving that long, though, so I won't hold my breath. :) grey muse
0gre 01-29-05, 07:11 PM	In lieu of the scimitar deal, I'd tack on some Weapon Master levels to your build and pick up a x4 crit weapon.
Ramses III 01-29-05, 07:24 PM	While the saves are good, and Combat Reflexes will be nice to get, most of the class features from Monk won't synergize with the rest of your build for a tank. And that's what DoD is for: it's a good tank. I'd go Paladin of Tyranny and Hexblade, and dump Wis and go low Int in favor of a better Cha. Arcane Resistance and Divine Grace DO stack according to the RAW, regardless of how much someone objects to the cheesiness of this. They are both unnamed bonuses, and thus they stack. IMO this build will do you more good than taking Monk -- you don't have to endure 2 levels of no weapons or armor, and you don't waste levels on class features that don't stack. So: PoT 2/Hxb 3/Ftr 1/DoD8/Ftr 1 (now level 2 fighter)/Blk 5 is the build I would go with, and go Epic into Blackguard.
grey muse 01-29-05, 07:26 PM	Unless I'm horribly misremembering, Weapon master has exactly the same issue as the scimitar build -- it requires you to focus on a particular weapon, something I'm trying to avoid doing.
grey muse 01-29-05, 07:37 PM	You're right, per RAW, Arcane Resistance and Divine Grace stack. The one that's questionable under RAW is Divine Grace and Dark Blessing, since the ability text is identical. Though, for my sake, neither of those will stack, since the DM won't allow them to. It's sort of moot, though, because I can't dump Int. DoD requires Combat Expertise, which requires Int 13+. Right now it's looking like stats will be: Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Chr 8
Ramses III 01-29-05, 07:50 PM	OK, I see what you're getting at now. They are still unnamed bonuses though, so they do stack as written. I can certainly see why someone would want to limit this kind of cheese though. In that case I would suggest only going 2 Hexblade, and taking a level of Pious Templar before going into DoD -- then advancing PT after you finish your DoD levels. As to the other level early in the build (assuming 2 Fighter) I would go Barbarian. So: Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Hexblade 2/Pious Templar 1/DoD 8/PT 7.
grey muse 01-29-05, 09:00 PM	I can't actually find the text in the core 3.5 books that states unnamed bonuses stack anymore, though I assume it's there somewhere. I think (though Imay be wrong) that they did state in 3.0 that the psionic Animal Affinity, which gave an untyped bonus, didn't stack with itself because it came from a similar source. If so, then there's precendent in RAW that duplicate abilities don't stack, even for untyped bonuses. I'm not saying they definitely don't stack by RAW, just that there's legitimate interpretation that they don't. And that they definitely don't in practice, because you'll never actually find a DM to let you stack them. :D * * * The PT build is better, but our DM is big against single dips into PrC's. He might (might) allow it for Dervish, but almost definitely not a class as frontloaded as the PT. So there's no easy way to get Mettle other than the 3 level Hexblade dip, at least not that I see.
catharz 01-30-05, 03:53 AM	Why don't you think Imp. Grapple and Stunning Fist are worth it? I was thinking of taking Imp. Grapple anyway, which was part of why I started looking at the monk. IMO getting into a grapple is one thing a DoD does not want to do. A much better feat than Imp Grapple is Close-quuarters fighting. And stunning fist isn't great because your DC will be low and you'll (hopefully) always be attacking with an iron weapon anyway.
grey muse 01-30-05, 04:01 AM	I suppose what you say is true. However, Imp. Grapple isn't bad in that case -- it still gives you a +4 on grapple checks to not get grappled, which stacks with that from Close Quarters Fighting. And it gives you some utility at lower levels, too. I'm not claiming it's going to be your primary tactic down the line, but it's definitely not something I'd mind having. grey muse