Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Overpowered_Munchkin 08-06-04, 05:51 PM	Hey forums ;) So here's the deal: We're making an epic team in FR. We've got PT buy 64 and these are my stats: str 18, dex 14, con 18, int 14, wis 14, cha 18. I'm thinking of making some kind of blackguard or paladin of tyranny mixed with fighter and some other classes. I'll be using a bastard sword, shield and heavy armor. The thing is that I've always liked the fighter best of all classes or fighting oriented characters and the other players in the group has been teasing me for this (1 of em always a spellcaster and pisses me off the most ;) he even succeded in dominating me once so this is really a vendetta ;) ) So I want to show em that a sword 'n' board char can kick ass. I'd like to have good dmg, pretty good AC and I'd like to be good at resisting spells. All sugestions are welcome but keep in mind hes gonna use sword and shield ;)
Overpowered_Munchkin 08-06-04, 06:00 PM	Almost forgot, the character lvl is 30
CrusadeDave 08-06-04, 06:10 PM	Hexblade 7/Blackguard 3/Dragon Disciple 20. You will have an amazing Fort and Will save as Arcane Resistance and Dark Blessing stack for Spells and Spell like effects. Combine this with Mettle and it will be scary how few spells effect you. You will be giving up +3 BAB. But you'll gain Natural Armor, Strength Bonus, Con Bonus, and the increase to Charisma will help your saves Doubly. Plus you'll have 60ft blindsense and flight that you get buying all 10 levels of Dragon Disciple rather than the Half Dragon Template. Plus you've got d12's for hit die. You've got an epic Progression in Dragon Disciple that's pretty nice. Plus those bonus spells from Dragon Disciple can be put to Blackguard level 2 spells, which can be Cure Moderate Wounds which handles your healing. Plus, with an Armor class of Full Plate (Since you can fly naturally with your wings, no need to worry about movement), Natural Armor +6, and a shield, you will be able to boost your AC high enough to make iterative attacks fail against you on a consistant basis.
obrysii 08-06-04, 09:44 PM	While probably not as good by any means as the others, this build might be decent: Hexblade 10/Talon of Tiamat 10/Dragon Disciple 10 You get spells (the hexblade levels will continue advance thanks to Talon of Tiamat), a bunch of breath weapons, and all the benefits of the Dragon Disicple. The only problem is Talon of Tiamat only has d8 HD.
grey muse 08-06-04, 10:01 PM	That's a nice build, CrusaderDave. I'm not entirely sure whether Dark Blessing and Arcane Resistance should stack, but if the DM allows it, more power to him. I also don't know if that AC is really going to be high enough to avoid attacks at level 30, though; even CR 25s have in the +40-45 range to hit. There's not a lot you can do about that, though. My first suggestion is to go heavy on saving throw feats: Iron Will, Luck of Heroes, Cumbrous Will (from Savage Species), and Epic Iron Will, since Will saves are usually the biggest problem. (Cumbrous Will gives you +6 to a will save in exchange for being shaken for the rest of the encounter.) Builds: myself, I'd probably want to take an epic PrC, because you don't get to play them that often. There's only one that really suits you, too. I'd be tempted to play a straight barb 24/Legendary Dreadnought 6 or Ftr 4/Barb 7/Frenzied Berserker 13/ Dreadnought 6. The first gets 8/- DR, the second has some crazy damage output and DR 4/- -- though I don't know if there's an official epic progression for FB. Barb 20/FB 10 has a charm of its own -- you can rage and frenzy for an additional +18 to Str and +4 to will saves. That's the iconic berserker, right there. You say you like fighter, though, so let's see what we can do with that. Fighter 8/Dwarven Defender 6/Hexblade 3/ Blackguard 2/Occult Slayer 5/ Dreadnought 6 is pretty nice. You'd have to be lawful evil and, of course, a dwarf. Here's a breakdown: Ftr 8: feats DD: good fort and will saves, DR 3/-, uncanny dodge. Defensive stance and AC boost are gravy. Hexblade: Will saves and mettle, arcane resistance if it stacks with Blackguard ability. Blackguard: Chr to saves. Occult Slayer: This is the meat. Good will save, bonus to saves, and immunity to mind affecting effects. (This includes the shaken effect of the Cumbrous Will feat.) Dreadnought: DR, extra hp, and a few neat abilities. Unstoppable lets you add +20 to any save once a day; you get another use at level 31. This biggest drawback to this build is its horrible feat synergy: unless I miscounted, all of your feats through level 18 are already accounted for in prereqs for PrC's. You end up taking practically every non-epic combat feat there is, though. I suggest seeing if you can substitute Improved Toughnes for Toughness as a prereq for DD. grey muse
Overpowered_Munchkin 08-07-04, 03:26 AM	Thanks for yer replys guys, didnt really think about the legendary dreadnaught and its not taht bad at all :) I liked your builds but the dm wont let me be an evil dwarf ;) Unfortunatley there is a house rule (should have told ya before sry) that i have to be good to take the dragon dispiciple class. Don't ask me why :) So I think I'm going to be a human (with or without templates) and suggestions?
grey muse 08-07-04, 03:40 AM	Another thought: if you want more feats than the above build gives you, especially if your DM rules Arcane Resistance and Dark Blessing don't stack, you might replace the blackguard 2 with monk 2. You'd lose Chr to saves and a point of BAB, but gain +3 to will and ref, evasion, improved grapple or stunning attack, and 2 feats. grey muse
grey muse 08-07-04, 04:10 AM	Hmm. Ignore the previous post, then. Definitely check to see if he'll let the Blackguard's Dark Blessing stack with the HExblade's Arcane Reistance; if he won't, then Blackguard is much less useful. Well, you could go with the above as human and replace the DD levels with straight fighter. That clears up some feats for you, so you could keep blackguard. (2 of the feats for it are prereqs for dreadnought anyway, so it only costs you 1.) That should still be a pretty solid build. I don't have Complete Divine or the Book of Vile Darkness; there might be good stuff in either of those. Let's see what there is in core and the Complete Warrior: - tossing blackguard and DD altogether, you can get Barb 7 for DR 1/-, rage, and uncanny dodge. That's so-so. - I like this one. Again, toss blackguard and DD. Instead, take barb 2/bear warrior 1/Warshaper 4. Rage is gravy, as is bear form; they're really prereqs. Warshaper gives you +4 Str and Con, an extra 5' reach, and fast heal 2. The only drawback is that you get d8s for hp and lose a point of BAB, but the d12s from the bear warrior and barb should help offset this. Actually, now that I think about it, you could take warshaper levels as your levels from 21-24, and not lose any BAB at all. That's perfect. I'd definitely go this route if the save bonuses don't stack. If those abilities do stack and you decide the save bonus is too sweet to pass up, I'd go with one of the other full BAB PrC's you've got available to replace DD. From core and Complete Warrior, that only leaves Eye of Gruumsh and Ravager. - The Eye gets 5' Blindsight at 5th level -- meager compared to the DD above, but better than nothing. Alas, the feats are useless for you, since they're both axe-based. - The Ravager's not bad. An extra d4+5 on weapon damage twice a day, and d4 con damage once a day. Not bad, but not great. I would say the most powerful build is probably the warshaper build above. You've actually got a lot of leeway; the core of this build is HexBlade 3/Occult Slayer 5/Dreadnought 6. That leaves you 16 levels, 4 of them epic, to play with as you like. I do love epic play. :) You're allowed templates? Feral/Mineral Warrior/White dragonspawn, or any combination thereof, would be really nice. Each is only +1 LA. grey muse
Battousai 08-07-04, 05:38 AM	In the BoVD ,there's the allmighty Disciple of Dispater : all good saves, good BAB and a lot of weapon oriented boons! If you have 8 levels is this PrC and Improved critical , your critical range will be multiplied by 4! Don't have my books handy, but I think Hexblade 7/Blackguard 2 / Disciple of Dispater 8/ Occult Slayer 5 is a good start.,though you won't have much choice for your feats. To finish your 30 levels, Fighter 2/ Legendary dreadnought 5 might be good. Depending on your style , Dervish is good too. On a totally different point of vue , you might take a psionic class. And a last build : take any race that makes you Outsider , like Tiefling or Deep Imaskari with the Otherworldly feat. Next squeeze levels of Mortal Hunter in the mix : Spurn mortal magic is great! So : Hexblade 7/Fighter 2/ Blackguard 2/ Disciple of Dispater 8/Occult Slayer 5/Mortal hunter 5 Edit: Paladin of tyranny is better than blackguard here: you gains Divine grace at level 2 too, but it frees two feat slots for better use. BAB: 30 Saves: For: 2+3+3+6+1+5+Con+Cha+Wis(+Cha against arcane spells + 3 against spells) Ref:2+6+1+1+Ref+Cha+Wis(+Cha against arcane spells + 3 against spells) Will:5+6+4+1+Wis+Cha+Wis(+Cha against arcane spells + 3 against spells) As an outsider ,you're immune to spells that target humanoids, plus you have mettle, mind over magic and immunity against mind-affecting spells and divinations. Now spellcasters won't laugh at you!
grey muse 08-07-04, 06:45 AM	Yeah, I thought the pal of tyranny might work better, but I wasn't sure if it still got the chr bonus to saves. It actually only frees up one feat, though -- Great Cleave is required for Dreadnought, which requires Power Attack and Cleave anyway. Thrall of Jubilex is also insanely good, as I recall. I don't remember the prereqs, but I know you could get it by level 5, easy. Alll good saves, d10 HD, full BAB, and by level 10 you have ooze immunities (to crits, stunning, and the like), can summon black puddings, and get polymorph as an innate ability. Something like Pal (tyranny) 2/Hexblade 3/ Thrall of Jubilex 10/Occult Slayer 5/Warshaper 4/Dreadnought 6 would be really good. Personally, I'd want as many levels of Dreadnought as possible, so I'd take the 6, but you could take less. Particularly if you wanted to slap on one of the nasty templates mentioned above. Feral's not so good -- warshaper gives you fast heal already -- but mineral warrior might be good. (Stone ooze?) Also, I haven't worked out the feats on that last build. I think it requires 8 feats, which is all of your non-epic feats as a human, but which leaves your epic feats untouched. grey muse edit: hexBLADE
Battousai 08-07-04, 07:13 AM	It would be pal of slaughter then since you must be CE to enter Thrall of Juiblex. He will be a little less good at resisting spells than my builds, but he wins the creepy-cool price :D Also, it's Hexblade, but I made the same mistake , gonna change it now.
grey muse 08-07-04, 07:35 AM	Yeah, I think your saves are slightly higher. The Jubilex build gives: Fort: 3+1+7+1+4+5 = 21 Ref: 0+1+7+1+1+2 = 12 Will: 0+3+7+4+1+2 = 17 plus the other assorted bonuses your build had... Actually, now that I look at it, the Jubilex build's saves are slightly higher all round, though only by 1 or 2 points. This is, of course, not assuming mineral warrior. :D (And there's a hidden +2 to the fort save that's not counted because of the +4 con from warshaper.) I think the real tradeoff is that the Dispater build will probably deal more melee damage, though I don't know what its weapon abilities are exactly. The Jubliex build will probably be a little more survivable, what with crit immunity and the like, but it's hard to say -- especially since I don't have the book to reference. Also, I realized that in the original post, he specified bastard sword. My build doesn't have room for that pre-epic, meaning he's got to: 1) Make do with a longsword 2) Spend an epic feat on EWP: bastard sword (yuck), or 3) Sack a level in there for Ftr 1, probably of Dreadnought. Ditto goes for templates; if he wants to take one, he's got to drop one or more levels, probably of the epic PrC. Myself, I'd probably go with option 1, though Souldrinker is a pretty (and cheap) epic bastard sword. Failing that, I'd go with option 3. grey muse
Battousai 08-07-04, 09:09 AM	If you have access to Eberon , the Warforger juggernaut meshes REALLY well with the Legendary dreadnought later on, plus you have immunities to many things. Something like Pal(tyranny) 2/Hexblade 3/ Occult Slayer 5/ Warforged juggernaut 5/Disciple of dispater 8/ Legendary dreadnought 7 Thanks to Hexblade, Paladin and disciple of dispater, your saves will be quite high. Your will save won't be good, but you have immunity to mind affecting spells, divination, death effect, ability damage and level drain so you don't need it. The Reflex save is not really high either, but you can always reflect that incoming metor swarm back to its caster :D Ouch , it can hurt!
Ranthanas 08-07-04, 09:46 AM	There's one basic rule when Epic spells are flying around: You must either be casting them yourself or the next best thing to immune to them. Epic Sword & Board Epic Spellcaster Human Paladin 1 (Educated, Power Attack) Paladin 2 Paladin 3 (Cleave) Paladin 4 Paladin 5 Paladin 6 (Improved Sunder) Paladin 7 Paladin 8 Paladin 9 (Iron Will) Paladin 10 Paladin 11=>Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Fighter 1 (Spell Focus (Conjuration), [Open Fighter]) Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Fighter 1/Nar Demonbinder 1 Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Fighter 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Spellsword 1 Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Fighter 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 1 (Heighten Spell, [Open Fighter]) Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Fighter 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 2 Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Fighter 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 3 (Divine feat) Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Fighter 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 4 Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Fighter 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 5 [EPIC] Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Fighter 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 6 (Improved Spell Capacity- 9th level Nar Demonbinder spells) Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Fighter 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 6/Epic Blackguard This build gives you pretty good combat abilities (BAB of +19), a 10% reduction in ASF and Spontanious Epic Spells. Also the Epic Blackguard combined with Epic spells has probably the best epic progression out there (equalled only by the hospitaller) Immune to Spells: Changeling Rogue 12/War Shaper 4/Paladin of Tyrany 2/Ranger 2/Rogue 13/Void Incarnate 9 You want a sword and board TWFer for this build. 7d6 Sneak Attack, reach, can sneak attack each round for free, Tank HP (+4 Con from War Shaper...), Immune to Crits, Improved Evasion, Improved Mettle of Fortitude, Mettle of Will (Improved next level), Permenant Mind Blank (He really can't mind control you- and your will save isn't remotely as meaningful), Divine Grace, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Fast Healing 2 and is immune to force effects. You also are a lot more useful than most fighters outside combat as you have an entire rack of skill points (and the Use Magic Divine skill on your class list).
iN.fuSioN 08-07-04, 10:17 AM	I can't really think of a better epic PrC than void incarnate for a non spellcaster. I would stick to this build from Ranthanas, it is really good ;D
Battousai 08-07-04, 10:37 AM	As far as immunities go, my warforged build is a good one I think: the only spells that can really damage him are the damaging, reflex based ones. As i recall, these are really not good ones at epic levels: creating a damaging epic spell is costly and doesn't do much damage until level 50 or so. The only other kind of spell that's dangerous is disintegrate. Even then ,it is Fortitude based so he can probably make the save, and the non epic spell will be reflected back to the caster.
Overpowered_Munchkin 08-07-04, 10:51 AM	Wow! Thx for your time guys! :D In what book can I find Void Incarnate? Many good suggestions have been made so far now I just dont know which one I should pick :)
Overpowered_Munchkin 08-07-04, 11:02 AM	Many good sugestions have been made here an I thank you all for yer time I just got to pick one :D But I also feel that the one I pick should also be able to roleplay with.. Where can I find the Void Incarnate id like to know what it does ;). whoops either my internet connection is weird or the wizards forum. Anyways sry for the double post..
Battousai 08-07-04, 12:43 PM	Where can I find the Void Incarnate id like to know what it does It's an epic PrC. It can be found in the old Epic Insight articles: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a
grey muse 08-07-04, 07:55 PM	I hadn't even seen those PrC's before. Void Incarnate is pretty good. Still, you lose a decent hunk of BAB going the rogue route. Until you're at unbelievably high levels, I don't really find epic spells to be that bad. The most threatening spells they're likely to face at 30th level are Greater Ruin and Nailed to he Sky. Figure a DC of 35 is the highest most casters are going to get on an epic spell. Admittedly, that's nasty -- but with a +5 resistance cloak and double Chr bonus to saves against it, you've pretty much already got that made for Fort or Will, and Reflex spells are mostly damage-dealers. The real killer is going to be creature abilities -- things like the lavawight and winterwight, which are only CR 23, can be *scary*if you don't have the saves. Some of these builds could shrug off the DC 35 Fort save, but take the LeShay, for example. They have a DC 53 Will save gaze attack charm monster. Yikes. Still only CR 28. Anyway: one problem with the changeling and warforged builds is that they're Eberron races, so might not be allowed in FR. Also, the warforged isn't legal -- you can't get into Dreadnought until level 25 (since epic BAB is different.) The warforged gives you lots of immunities (including ability drain -- nice) but you lose the ability to be healed. Ouch. It does give immunity to mind-affecting spells, though, as well as crits, death attacks, and ability damage. (nice.) This might be nice if you don't have a cleric, because you could have the mage cast repair spells on you instead. The epic blackguard/demonbinder I really like. Depending on the pace of the camapaign, though, you may not get a chance to develop your own epic spelss, and the ones in the book mostly don't do it for me. I mean, Ruin and Peripety are both pretty nice, and low DC... but you're trading a lot of immunities and saves for it. The changeling is much more defensive, but I don't like it as much for a fighter-type. You lose a lot of hp and 4 BAB... I guess it's not that bad. Improved mettle (fort) basically makes you immune to death attacks. I can't think of that many will-half saving throws. The improved evasion and mettles are really nice for saves, but he seems to be lacking a bit in tanking ability. I still think the Thrall of Jubilex build is the way to go. You don't get evasion or the will=based mettle, but you get more saves, immunity to crits, poison,stunning, and polymorphing. You can also polymorph self at will - how's *that* for utility? You get more hps and DR 3/-, which is a must for surviving spells like Creeping Doom, and the epic Crown of Vermin (and the Vermiurge, which has this ability.) Basically, I don't think the changeling Void Incarnate is really any more survivable than the Jubilex-Dreadnought -- just that they survive slightly different things -- and that the Jubilex build is a better tank-style fighter. grey muse
Battousai 08-07-04, 08:03 PM	For the thrall of Juiblex build : try to find a way to make the PC an outsider, it will make the Polymorph self ability really nasty when combined with Warshaper.
grey muse 08-07-04, 09:55 PM	Well, Tiefling is a +1 LA, but it has -2 Chr. :( A better option would be bariaur. I don't have the Planar Handbook, but the 3.0 Manual of the Planes lists them as: +2 Str, -2 Chr +2 racial bonus on will saves vs. spells and spell-like effects SR 11+ characer level (definitely a plus) +2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen Quadruped: bonus against bull rush and trip, armor must be purchased as barding, cannot wear standard boots LA +1 Can anyone verify whether this is changed in 3.5? While we're at it, can someone check the prereqs for Thrall of Jubilex out of BoVD? I'm touting this build an awful lot, I'd hate to find out it's short on feats. The armor is a drawback, but SR is a huge boon. As much as I hate giving up levels of Dreadnought, it might be worth only going Dreadnought 5 bariaur or even Dreadnought 3/Ftr 2 bariaur instead of Dreadnought 6, (Depending on how much you need the feats.) Another option would be the psionic elan, which are aberrations. I don't think you can get quite as neat of aberrations as you can outsiders, though. grey muse