Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Viper3220 10-11-05, 08:18 PM	What do you think is the best melee fighters weapon....or dual weapons? Best fighter weapon in my opinion is the Falchion(or dual Falchions if the Gigantic Weapon feat is taken) Base weapon(No Added Magic or modifiers) Falchion 2d4 18-20 x2 75GP (You get decent damage and a good crit range, not to mention the bonus STR damage from 2 hands) Best Special ability....??? not fully decided on yet...Maybe Brilliant Energy... But any suggestions are welcomed.
Ed-Zero 10-11-05, 08:49 PM	I think the best fighter weapon is a spiked chain, it just opens up a lot of options (ie: mucho trip attacks).. combine that with nifty feats like Combat Expertise and Jotunbrud along with Monkey Grip and of course, Improved Trip and you have yourself a monster that can take on anything with legs.
Llochlyn 10-11-05, 09:01 PM	Best weapon depends on the build you're going to make... For heavy hits, I have to agree on falchion... a nice dual weapon not to forget is the quarterstaff... no exotic proficiency needed... some people would kill for one more feat, so there it is Daggers are great for top speed striking (combo rapid shot + TWF) I have a knack for shield as a weapon too just see wich fits better the feats you love most
Seeker of Truth 10-11-05, 09:27 PM	While there are always exceptions, I think armor spikes (when paired with a 2-handed primary weapon) is a powerful choice. Combining most of the two weapon fighting goodness with all of the two-handed fighting oomph.
Amphetryon 10-11-05, 09:31 PM	Spiked Chain is, mechanically, the best weapon in 3.X. Decent damage output and outstanding battlefield control. Halberd, for my money, is the best Martial weapon. Power Attack friendly, two damage types on a d10, and bonuses to Trip combine to make it a wonderful, versatile choice. Were it a Reach weapon, my opinion is it'd be too good, and have to be moved to Exotic. For Simple weapons, it's hard to argue against the Morningstar. Two damage types and damage output equal to any Simple weapon in Core make it a solid choice. It's also Power Attack friendly, since it's not a Light weapon. In my campaigns, Morninstar is treated as a Martial weapon due to it's strengths compared to other Simple choices. I agree that Quarterstaff is a good second option, as is Spear.
Zathyr 10-11-05, 11:06 PM	Also worth noting are any of the one-handed exotic melee weapons coupled with the Uncanny Blow trick from the Exotic Weapon Master. Getting the extra .5 Str really helps their damage output, if that's what you're looking for.
Judging Eagle 10-12-05, 07:25 PM	Yeah, the more averaged damage from a falchion; plus it's higher crit range makes it great as a heavy hitter. Spiked chains are really great for high str trippers who can threaten a ludicrous area when enlarged (with a bit more than average dex you can throw in hold the line and simply running past you lets you hit them), or high dex light fighters who prefer to fight from reach. Halbeards are great for solid consistant hitting, plus slashing/piercing damage combo'ed. Morningstars are imo the cleric weapon of choice, piercing isn't always useful, but it does help when you have options. Use a longspear underwater of course. You also are never too bad off if you're packing a decent damage light slashing weapon (for... getting swallowed whole) like a handaxe or throwing axe (plus you can throw the throwing axe before a fight). Personally the weapons I always have on my melee builds/fighters include: [no exotic weapons since a normal weapon is much cheaper than getting a feat; I've realized this only recently, get the feat when you want to use a magical weapon instead] -Guisarme (reach, good for tripping) -Heavy Lance (horseback....2x damage, if you're a decent hit, power attack; that's double weapon damage plus three times your traded off BAB (double from charging with the lance, double from using a 2handed weapon to power attack; two doublings is a trippling) -Falchion/Greatsword (one for more crits, the other for better damage per hit; use the falchion later when you can get a scabbard of keen edges or a keen falchion -Longsword (lame, but 19-20/x2 crit and let's you use a sheild) -Morning Star (covers everything the longsword doesn't type-wise) -Throwing Axe (good in a grapple, able to be thrown so you can use it without pulling your bow and useful if you ever get swallowed) -Javelin(s) (More range than the axes if you need it and the target doesn't have DR that negates piercing) -Some sort of piercing weapon (spear/longspear/trident) (this is if your ever stuck in the water or have to fight stuff in water) -Comp longbow (max str mod = your str mod) you will have to be able to hit from range) Now, this is a bit cumbersome looking, but if you live and die each day by the weapons you carry. You better be sure that the weapons you carry can carry the day.
Vaelan 10-12-05, 07:34 PM	Until you're dealing approximately 30 points of damage per hit, greatswords are better than falchions, even with Improved Critical or Keen in effect.
littlenog 10-14-05, 05:47 AM	Also if your going for a 2hd weapon you can also use Armor Spikes as an off-hand weapon that does a d6 of damage and .5 STR for two weapon fighting.
Stuu 10-14-05, 08:15 AM	I can’t believe how much I learn looking at this forum. Vaelan’s comment confused me so I looked up that argument with google and did some math myself. The character I’m playing now wields a large +1 keen falchion and does 2d6 +17 damage a hit. So with 24 points on average with a 30% chance of a crit (+30% x 24 points= 7.2 points) gives me an average of 31.2 points a hit. With a comparable magical greatsword (3d6 as large) I would plainly average more damage. Weapon type | damage |average damage| crit chance | total average +1 keen Falchion 2d6 +17 24 30% 31.2 +1 keen greatsword 3d6 +17 27.5 20% 33 +2 falchion 2d6 +18 25 15% 28.75 +2 greatsword 3d6 +18 28.5 10% 31.35 Not sure how the chance to hit or the confirm roll modifies the equation, I think it affects them all equally to make it a non factor. Makes me wish I posted my character here before I played him.
babysamurai 10-14-05, 09:21 AM	My favourite martial weapon has got to be the Rapier. 1. Crit range 18-20 2. You can apply Weapon Finesse 3. You can apply Power attack 4. It's piercing, so you can use it underwater.
stephen_gryphon 10-14-05, 10:01 AM	Not sure how the chance to hit or the confirm roll modifies the equation, I think it affects them all equally to make it a non factor. Makes me wish I posted my character here before I played him. Usually it is a non-factor -- each crit chance usually just adds a straight 5%. The only difference is when you are up against a high AC, as the attack still needs to hit in the first place. i.e. If you are hitting on rolls below your threat range, then the figures you gave are correct; e.g. if hitting on 13's & above (8/20 chance to hit) the +1 Keen Falchion will do an average of 8/20 * 24 * 130% damage per attack; working this out long hand, you get: attack roll 1-12 = nothing attack roll 13-14 = normal attack roll 15-20 threat, not confirmed 1-12 = normal attack roll 15-20 threat [crit chance], then confirmed 13-20 [to hit chance] = crit (x2) In these circumstances additional crit is [to hit chance] * [crit chance], except that you roll the crit chance first. Also, don't forget the + bonus also applies to hit chance (hitting on a 12 or higher), giving -- Hitting on 13+ (with first weapon): [formula is: avg hit * to hit * (1 + crit chance)] +1 keen Falchion 24 * 8/20 * (1 + 30%) = 12.48 +1 keen greatsword 27.5 * 8/20 * (1 + 20%) = 13.20 +2 falchion 25 * 9/20 * (1 + 15%) = 12.94 +2 greatsword 28.5 * 9/20 * (1 + 10%) = 14.11 i.e. the +1 to hit from using a +2 vs a +1 keen weapon increase chance from 40% to 45%, resulting in damage 5/40 or 12.5% higher. Even though the +1 keen greatsword has higher damage, the +2 greatsword hits more often and comes out ahead. However, the you also have to hit in the first place, and if this needs a higher roll than your crit range then you actually become worse off! Say, in a bad case, you need 19-20 to actually hit, the results for the +1 keen falchion then look like the following attack roll 1-18 = nothing attack roll n/a-everything is either miss or threat = normal attack roll 19-20 threat, not confirmed 1-18 = normal attack roll 19-20 threat [to hit chance], then confirmed 19-20 [to hit chance] = crit (x2) In other words, the greater crit range of the falchion is irrelevant; the actual crit in these circumstances is [to hit chance] * [to hit chance], i.e. crits actually use the lower of crit chance and to hit chance. Note that at the same time the benefit of a +1 bonus becomes much more, increasing for 10% chance to hit up to a 15% chance, or a 50% increase in damage output. Hitting on 19+ (with first weapon): Formula including to hit is: avg hit * to hit * [1 + MIN(crit chance, to hit chance) ] +1 keen Falchion 24 * 2/20 * (1 + 10%) = 2.64 +1 keen greatsword 27.5 * 2/20 * (1 + 10%) = 3.025 +2 falchion 25 * 3/20 * (1 + 15%) = 4.3125 +2 greatsword 28.5 * 3/20 * (1 + 10%) = 4.7025 * * Note the +2 greatsword is the "normal" situation with crit chance being the smaller factor. For the same reason, a 20/x3 is sometimes better than 19-20/x2, even though normally both add 10% extra damage. Full formula is: avg hit * to hit * [1 + MIN(crit range, to hit chance) * crit add ], where crit range is the range part (e.g. 19-20 = 10%, etc), which is compared with to hit chance, and crit add is the additional damage (e.g. x2 = 1 add, x3 = 2 add, etc) You can put this formula into a spread sheet with the weapon average hit, crit range, crit add, and then cross-reference this with your to-hit chance. In the above case the falchion crosses over at the 60% mark (hit on 9's or above) where the extra damage from keen is more than the extra to hit, however the greatsword is still ahead by a point of damage and that continues right up until the end. Out of the above 4 weapons the only time where the +2 greatsword is not the outright best is where you hit 95% of the time, i.e. only miss on a 1, and the only reason it wins out is because the +1 actually means nothing at this point! For pure damage, unless your base is up into the 40's - 50's (for a 50% hit chance), the greatsword wins out of all the base weapons.
eRaz0r 10-14-05, 03:32 PM	Which means the Falchion is only better when you have some ability that works on crits. Unfortunately, only a few weapon enhancments work only on crits, and they all suck. Consider a Burst weapon (+2) vs two elemental enhancements (+1 x 2) : The Burst weapon does 1d6 (+1d10 but only on crits). The other weapon does +2d6 all the time (1d6 of each element) for the same price. So unless you can crit on every attack, the burst weapon can't compete with the 2 elemental enhancments. I'd make burst weapons do 2d4 all the time (or 1d8, whatever) and have some status effect happen on a crit (like catching flame, freezing in place, stunning (sonic or electricity) etc). That way it would actually hold it's own vs two elemental enhancements. So unless you have some funky class ability that works only on crits, the greatsword wins again.
Pellanor 10-14-05, 04:12 PM	The formula to calculate the average damage of a weapon is: hit % * Avg Dmg + hit % * crit % * Avg Dmg * (Crit X -1). Assuming a base +9 to hit VS AC 20, and a str of 10: falchion: 50% * 5 + 50% * 15% * 5 * (2-1) = 2.875 average greatsword: 50% * 7 + 50% * 10% * 7 * (2-1) = 3.85 average greataxe: 50% * 7 + 50% * 5% * 7 * (3-1) = 3.85 average note: the greataxe should be less because it's average damage was 6.5 not 7, but I used 7 to just compare critical. Assuming a base +9 to hit VS AC 20, and a str of 50: falchion: 50% * 35 + 50% * 15% * 35 * (2-1) = 20.125 average greatsword: 50% * 37 + 50% * 10% * 37 * (2-1) = 20.35 average greataxe: 50% * 37 + 50% * 5% * 37 * (3-1) = 20.35 average you can see here that the bonus to damage required to actually make the falcion the better choice is quite large. Actually, the falcion is not a better choice until you have a bonus of +40 to damage. anyways, fun weapons that I like: Spiked chain. just cause it's so handy. Kusari-Gama from the DMG. It's a one-handed version of a spiked chain, so you can TWF it. Goliath Greathammer from RoS. Who doesn't like 2d6 dmg, a x4 critical, and +2 bonus on sunder attacks? Of course I'm also a sucker for the Katana. Especially an Adamentine Katana so I can pull off the whole "cut-****-in-half-with-no-effort" attack. That and you can take uncanny blow with it. of course a sap can be freaking handy if you don't want to kill somebody. And if you want really exotic weapons, there's the Large Mercurial Pitspawned DwarvenCraft Abyssal BloodIron Bastard Sword.
Skulan 10-14-05, 05:32 PM	Regarding the damage calculations, I find that if you have room for one level of Exotic Weapon Master, a bastard sword or dwarven waraxe actually out-damages the greatsword. The difference between the two increases as strength increases, of course, so if you're past 20 the d10 is increasingly the way to go. But I'll leave the actual math to someone who's good at it. -Skulan
Pellanor 10-14-05, 06:19 PM	since the Greatsword does an average of 7 + Str*1.5 damage and the Bastard Sword does 5.5 + Str*2 then they become equal when the your 1/2 your strength bonus is equal to the difference of damage (1.5). Str Mod 0: GS 7, BS 5.5 Str Mod 1: GS 8.5, BS 7.5 Str Mod 2: GS 10, BS 9.5 Str Mod 3: GS 11.5, BS 11.5 Str Mod 4: GS 13, BS 13.5 Str Mod 5: GS 14.5, BS 15.5 you also have to take into consideration that the .5 for the great sword always gets round down as that comes from str bonus, where as the .5 from BS comes from the average die roll, so it doesn't get rounded.
eRaz0r 10-14-05, 07:09 PM	You mean, when they've got EWM (BS) right ? BTW - one advantage of the GS over the BS is that 2d6 is simply a better die than 1d10. Obviously if you're comparing EWM (BS) with standard GS, the comparison isn't about the weapon any more, is it? It's about the fact you've got +STR x 2 instead of + STR x 1.5... Why is 2d6 better than 1d10 ? Average is higher, but so is minimum *and* maximum scores. But that's not it. It's because 2d6 is a bell curve and 1d10 is a flat percentage. You're more likely to get 7 on 2d6 than any other number, but on 1d10, 1 is as likely as 7, or as 10. So for general consistency, 2d6 is strictly a better die than 1d10. But of course as soon as you get EWM (BS) and a Str Mod of +4 or more, the BS is suddenly a better "weapon" than the GS. Something that I should mention to my BS weilding Barb/Fighter friend .
Aristulous 10-14-05, 07:58 PM	For us smaller mounted types... 2 Handed Tangat - 1d8 crit on 18-20 is a no brainer. Constant charging on a Clawfoot makes for regular "default" crit damage w/spirited charge.
Seeker of Truth 10-14-05, 08:14 PM	You mean, when they've got EWM (BS) right ? BTW - one advantage of the GS over the BS is that 2d6 is simply a better die than 1d10. Obviously if you're comparing EWM (BS) with standard GS, the comparison isn't about the weapon any more, is it? It's about the fact you've got +STR x 2 instead of + STR x 1.5... Why is 2d6 better than 1d10 ? Average is higher, but so is minimum *and* maximum scores. But that's not it. It's because 2d6 is a bell curve and 1d10 is a flat percentage. You're more likely to get 7 on 2d6 than any other number, but on 1d10, 1 is as likely as 7, or as 10. So for general consistency, 2d6 is strictly a better die than 1d10. But of course as soon as you get EWM (BS) and a Str Mod of +4 or more, the BS is suddenly a better "weapon" than the GS. Something that I should mention to my BS weilding Barb/Fighter friend . I actually don't find that consistancy is worth a darn ... it's all about the average. An attack that does 3d6 has the same average as one that does 1d20 has the same average as 1d4+8. In a given fight consistance may be an advantage. (Fighting opponents with 9HPs each for example you'd definaly want to be rolling the d4), but against an opponent with DR 10/- you'd definatly want the d20. On the whole it all averages out so all three of the above attacks would be equivilant. It's possible that if playing with "magic numbers" like the massive damage threshold that it would be worth while trying to min-max it (meaning choosing more erratic weapons if average damage is below the MDT and more consistant ones if it's over)
eRaz0r 10-17-05, 12:13 PM	Well, if you discount STR mods and EWM prestige classes, and just talk about the base damage, the 2d6 is both a higher minimum, higher maximum, higher average *and* it has the consistancy effect. So in all ways it is superior to the 1d10.
stephen_gryphon 10-18-05, 07:28 AM	The formula to calculate the average damage of a weapon is: hit % * Avg Dmg + hit % * crit % * Avg Dmg * (Crit X -1). Actually, as I have already pointed out in this thread (above), the formula above is not completely correct -- it does not take into account the fact that the chance to threat is part of the initial attack (rather than a separate roll), hence limited by the overall hit %. i.e. if the threat range is 15-20 (a keen falchion), but you need 18's to hit, then half the threat range is wasted. Average _attack_ damage = hit % * Avg _weapon_ damage + hit % * MIN( crit %, hit % ) * Avg _weapon_ damage * (Crit X - 1) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ This only makes a minor difference overall, but still points towards large crit ranges being less important (compared to other features). - Sly
Llochlyn 10-18-05, 09:03 AM	woops, we misrulled the threat ranges for 5 years... Critical threat meant automatic hit to us... or was it 3.0 ? nope it wasn't :blush: woops Anyway, that balances the game yup... Couldn't understand how level 8 fighter had more than 20% chances to hit a god on any hit :) Thanks, I learn everyday...
Tony Vargas 10-18-05, 08:52 PM	What do you think is the best melee fighters weapon.... Depends on what you're trying to acomplish. Some of the PH weapons stand out though: Greatsword: Highest average damage means something, that is also has a good threat range, really pushes it over the top. For simply doing more damage, more consistently, (something that's very desireable for PCs) it's the 'best' weapon. It also has the advantage of being an all-metal weapon, so has very high hardness when made of adamantine. Spiked Chain: More 'specials' than any other weapon: Trip, Disarm, Finesse, Reach+adjacent. You can't do /everything/ with it, though - no set-vs charge, no sundering (piercing damage), no shield. It benefits, defensively, from adamantine, but since it can't sunder, doesn't quite take full advantage. Bastard Sword: High-damage for a one-handed weapon, and works well with Adamantine. Barely worth the feat, but the 'best' one-handed weapon if that's not an issue. (if the feat is an issue, the Dwarven Waraxe, in the hands of a dwarf, wins out). Scythe: Hafted, so can be sundered pretty easily, but the combination of the x4 crit, dual damage types, and Trip capability make it an interesting choice. Guisarme: A spiked chain with training wheels, choosing a Guisarm early on lets you build a functional triptastic melee type sooner than going with the Spiked chain. Once you're a few levels in, though, the Chain is generally superior, though you may occassionally miss the Guisarm's slashing damage type. Light Flail: Not great, but it's one-handed, and can trip, a great combination for some 'tank' builds. Sickle: Really not great, but, for a simple weapon, pretty cool. Slashing damage and Trip are rare among simple weapons. Also, it's the only trip-capable light weapon, which can make for interesting TWF builds... Armor Spikes: These guys break all the rules. They're weapons you don't ever have to draw or drop. They can't be disarmed or sundered. They can be off-hand weapons, primary weapons, maybe even both. They let you TWF while using a two-handed weapon, threaten while using a reach weapon, and do better damage in a grapple.
Llochlyn 10-18-05, 09:01 PM	Just thought... how do you rule Shield bash + Armor spikes + Let's say a sword? Taking Improved shield bash and TWF okay, so now, you have different attack routines right ? You can go Sword + Shield Sword + Spikes Shield + Spikes Allowing you to deal all 3 kind of damage without ever changing weapons... What when you have several attacks ?
Zathyr 10-21-05, 11:09 AM	Is a Bastard Sword really better than the Dwarven Waraxe? Oriental coolness factors of katanas aside, strictly speaking isn't x3 crit very slightly better than 19-20/x2? Let's not forget the exotic weapons in CW either. Dire pick and warmace (I think that's what they were called) deserve at least a mention.
Pellanor 10-21-05, 05:38 PM	Actually, as I have already pointed out in this thread (above), the formula above is not completely correct -- it does not take into account the fact that the chance to threat is part of the initial attack (rather than a separate roll), hence limited by the overall hit %. i.e. if the threat range is 15-20 (a keen falchion), but you need 18's to hit, then half the threat range is wasted. Average _attack_ damage = hit % * Avg _weapon_ damage + hit % * MIN( crit %, hit % ) * Avg _weapon_ damage * (Crit X - 1) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ This only makes a minor difference overall, but still points towards large crit ranges being less important (compared to other features). - Sly Ah yes, I completely forgot about that. I knew that at one point I had calculated out that the larger multiplier was slightly better then the greater range, and now I remember why.
ronyon 10-22-05, 02:33 PM	I ressurect for a slight hijack-lets see if this works. Dread Necro is a new base class. It has D6 HD, light armor and wizard BaB. It gets one Martial Weapon Prof. Compound Long Bow is probably the best choice, but what if you want some thing else? Armor Spikes with (Long)Spear. The obvious Scythe. Something else, weird and non-core.It should be: 1.Tripping, disarming or grappling friendly, or 2. Have Reach,or 3.Be Ranged, and 4. Be Martial Any sugestions?
Wrathamon 10-22-05, 02:51 PM	Also worth noting are any of the one-handed exotic melee weapons coupled with the Uncanny Blow trick from the Exotic Weapon Master. Getting the extra .5 Str really helps their damage output, if that's what you're looking for. So what is the best exotic 1 hander for Uncanny Blow to max out your damage?
Taeldrin Laesrash 10-22-05, 03:07 PM	The Talenta Sharrash (Dragon 331) is really great. d10 damage, and a 19-20/ x4 crit range. It's also a ploearm, so it has reach.
General_Ridley 10-22-05, 04:17 PM	I like scythes for the fact that a critical can end up making a huge difference. Add monkey Grip and a large scythe, and you can do some serious damage.
McBAMF 10-22-05, 05:08 PM	Fullblade: 2d8 19-20 is one of my favorite exotic weapons. Get a large one and thats a lot of damage at low levels. I might be mistaken but because its so large it might get reach.
dawgfan 10-22-05, 05:23 PM	How about a courtblade in the hands of a Swashbucker/Champion of Corellon could be pretty nice.
frisbeet 10-22-05, 05:37 PM	A long time ago, when search was still possible, I re-derived a formula for average damage/hit, allowing easy comparison of weapons. Looks something like this: crit range = c crit multimplier = m average weapon damage = d damage bonus = b Let <D> = Average damage/hit, taking into account criticals, against opponents whose AC is not so high that a lowest threat roll misses. Then <D> = (1 + c(m-1)/20)*(d+b) A proof is derived by considering the ratio of probability of critically hitting to normally hitting, which is the frequency of hitting for crit among all hits. 1-this is freq of normally hitting among all hits. Multiply freqs by appropriate damage and multipliers. An example: Keen Greatsword, wielded by 22 Str fighter w/ no other damage bonuses. c = 4 m = 2 d = 7 b = 6 <D> = (1 + 4(2-1)/20)(7+6) = 15.6 per hit Keen Scythe, same dude = 16.9 per hit. This formula shows why 19-20 x 2 is equivalent to 20 x 3, etc. Click sig for a spreadsheet which takes into account power attack for more detailed weapon comparisons. Pretty much for opt. dam, one-handed exotic weapons wielded with two hands, with the Uncanny Blow stunt, are ze best.
darkmatter 10-22-05, 08:28 PM	I have always been biased towards the falchion. Although it takes some PrC's to make the threat range bigger than 15-20. Either weapon master for 13-20 threat range or disciple of dispater for a 9-20 threat range. Of course it does take a few PrC's like these to make the wide threat range classes shine true but when you do the benefit is pretty obvious. 55% crit chance for the disciple of dispater. Then the only thing left to do is fix the chance to hit problem. War chanter's inspire recklessness and shock trooper solve that problem. This is a setup which makes the falchion far better than any other weapon. Of course, core is far more limiting although in my group's campaigns, keen and improved critical stack because why wouldn't making a blade sharper stack with me getting better at making critical strikes? Anyway, yeah I have always been a huge fan of falchions.
Seeker of Undeath 10-23-05, 03:00 AM	What do you think is the best melee fighters weapon....or dual weapons?Halflings. Maybe Kobolds but only if Halflings aren't in your current price range.
Zathyr 10-23-05, 06:42 PM	With a good leadership score, you could have plenty of halflings for free! So what is the best exotic 1 hander for Uncanny Blow to max out your damage? Hmm, now there's a question. I think technically it depends on your opponent's AC, and of course immunity to crits will effect it as well.. I haven't looked through every book out there, but at a d12 (at medium) the Warmace (CW) has the highest base damage of any of those exotic 1-handers that I know of, but you pay for it with only a x2 crit and a -1AC for wielding it.
Tony Vargas 10-24-05, 02:42 PM	Is a Bastard Sword really better than the Dwarven Waraxe? Oriental coolness factors of katanas aside, strictly speaking isn't x3 crit very slightly better than 19-20/x2? Mathematically, x3 and 19-20 both give you the same expected extra damage from crits. x3 has more of a tendency to 'overkill' and 19-20 can miss out on crit damage when you only hit on a 20. The former is more likely to be a problem than the latter for PCs, who quickly get very high AB, and generally face opponents weaker than themselves, so that's a slight advantage to the bastard sword. The sword also has the advantage of having metal hardness as a bladed weapon (which is a /lot/ of hardness if it's adamantine), so can resist sunder attempts better than the axe.
GhostStepper 10-24-05, 03:10 PM	A Scythe is a good weapon with the right build simply because of the x4. Sure you need to do a few things as mentioned earlier to improve the threat range but if your a Frenzied Berserker then you end up with supreme power attack to do insane damage with a crit. Lets say we have a Frenzied Berserker10 with other classes which grant him a BAB of 20 by 20th level. Because you gain +4 damage for every point of base attack you sacrifice when using a 2 handed weapon and supreme power attack, if you spend all twenty your already getting +80 to damage off the bat. If you started with a descent strength score of say, 15, and boosted it every 4 levels you have a score of 20 at 20th level. Of course by then youve got mad money and have killed tons of stuff so its not a stretch to imagine yoube picked up a belt of giant strength +6. So now our strength of of 26 grants us +8 to attack and +12 to damage with a scythe (2 handed). Lets not forget the we are a hard core berserker who gains +10 to strength during a frenzy by this lofty level of experience. So in this instance our strength is in fact 36, giving us +13 to attack (after giving up +20 BAB) and +19 to damage. So now our badder-than-the-reaper-himself melee guy gets to attack with his scythe at +13 for 2d4+99. Theres some magic item or weapon enchantment that lets you use True Strike once a day though i forget where or what it is (i mean other than the nunchaku of mastery). This will help you atleast hurt the guy even if you dont get the crit since +13 isnt too impressive at level 20. Of course this brings us back to why the scythe is nice. Roll a critical and your doing 8d4+396 points of damage in one swing. Sure the falchion is MUCH more practical, but the scythe with x4 atleast has the possibility for mad damage then all the planets are in alignment. (PS im sure this strategy has been on the optimization board before, forgive me if youve already seen it)
ninjarabbit 10-24-05, 05:04 PM	As far as dwarven waraxe vs bastard sword goes the waraxe has the advantage that you don't have to use a feat on it if you're a dwarf.
Aristulous 10-24-05, 06:13 PM	A long time ago, when search was still possible, You still can search by copy / pasting "boards1.wizards.com" into Google then a space then what your looking for. Not quite as good as an in house search but still effective.
General_Ridley 10-24-05, 06:27 PM	A Scythe is a good weapon with the right build simply because of the x4. Sure you need to do a few things as mentioned earlier to improve the threat range but if your a Frenzied Berserker then you end up with supreme power attack to do insane damage with a crit. Lets say we have a Frenzied Berserker10 with other classes which grant him a BAB of 20 by 20th level. Because you gain +4 damage for every point of base attack you sacrifice when using a 2 handed weapon and supreme power attack, if you spend all twenty your already getting +80 to damage off the bat. If you started with a descent strength score of say, 15, and boosted it every 4 levels you have a score of 20 at 20th level. Of course by then youve got mad money and have killed tons of stuff so its not a stretch to imagine yoube picked up a belt of giant strength +6. So now our strength of of 26 grants us +8 to attack and +12 to damage with a scythe (2 handed). Lets not forget the we are a hard core berserker who gains +10 to strength during a frenzy by this lofty level of experience. So in this instance our strength is in fact 36, giving us +13 to attack (after giving up +20 BAB) and +19 to damage. So now our badder-than-the-reaper-himself melee guy gets to attack with his scythe at +13 for 2d4+99. Theres some magic item or weapon enchantment that lets you use True Strike once a day though i forget where or what it is (i mean other than the nunchaku of mastery). This will help you atleast hurt the guy even if you dont get the crit since +13 isnt too impressive at level 20. Of course this brings us back to why the scythe is nice. Roll a critical and your doing 8d4+396 points of damage in one swing. Sure the falchion is MUCH more practical, but the scythe with x4 atleast has the possibility for mad damage then all the planets are in alignment. (PS im sure this strategy has been on the optimization board before, forgive me if youve already seen it) if you keep 2 of the base attack bonus, and monkey grip a large scythe, you get some more damage. Oh, and even at level 20, enlarge person can be good, what with you now having a Huge scythe.
GhostStepper 10-24-05, 06:45 PM	if you keep 2 of the base attack bonus, and monkey grip a large scythe, you get some more damage. Oh, and even at level 20, enlarge person can be good, what with you now having a Huge scythe. if your using eberron you might as well burn two feats, get monkey grip and EWP with the talenta sharrash. It does 1d10 and is 19-20/x4 as a medium sized weapon. Monkey grip the large one then enlarge person for huge (3d8) weapon wielding action. Lets make it a +5 and, with my previous formula, we've got 12d8+416 on a critical...And this is considering a strength of 26 (before frenzy bonus). If we wanted to munchkin even further im sure we could find ways to pump that score up even higher (like using a Tome of gainful excercise or adding barbarian rage bonus) With this kind of damage you might as well be cutting atoms in half and starting nuclear fission in who ever you hit... My new favorite as the best fighter weapon is the Talenta Sharrash!
ming_the_meaningless 10-24-05, 09:13 PM	Talenta Sharrash has been errata'ed, and is no longer 19-20/x4. I'm kind of surprised that Dwarven Warpike hasn't been mentioned. Greataxe level damage, reach, trip, and set vs charge. Requires an EWP to use, (unless a dwarf using the optional racial proficiencies rule in CW), but still a powerful weapon. The Harpoon is a ranged weapon that can do hideous damage due to the reflex save vs 10+damage, removal mechanic. 1d10 is not to bad for a one handed ranged weapon, especially as it has some other advantages. I believe Tempest Stormwind has a very good build based on the harpoon.
stephen_gryphon 10-28-05, 08:34 AM	we've got 12d8+416 on a critical... So that's an average of 470 per _critical_ (and 118 normal) damage... of course with only a +13 you probably don't hit on anything but a 20 ... so that means to crit you need to roll two 20's (a 1-in-400 chance). In other words, the expected average Crit damage is only 1.2 point per attack! with expected normal damage around 6 per attack, for a grand total expected average damage per attack of 7.2 ! Assuming they _don't_ power attack, they have an attack bonus of +33, so they probably always (except on a 1) hit. (Worst case scenario is against someone with AC 33-35) Each successful attack only does 3d8+19 or so, average around 31 points, but they do this on 95% of attacks! In other words their expected damage is 30 points damage/attack. So, whilst Mr Power Attack is sitting around waiting for his 1-in-20 chance to do 120 points, or 1-in-400 chance to do 470 points, the bog standard guy is slugging away at 30 points per attack. Hey, to do 480 points will only take around 16 attacks (15 will hit, one will miss), well before Mr Power Attack even gets one solid hit. Don't you think your power attack is a little overrated?
Eagle Prince 10-28-05, 10:22 AM	how about goliath greathammer, 2d6 x4 and its blunt damage, and +2 on sunders. Pretty sweet, too bad it costs EWP. Maybe not the best weapon, but its got to be the best bludgeoning weapon.
catharz 10-28-05, 02:42 PM	how about goliath greathammer, 2d6 x4 and its blunt damage, and +2 on sunders. Pretty sweet, too bad it costs EWP. Maybe not the best weapon, but its got to be the best bludgeoning weapon. Nah, the spiked chain is still better. As is a Shillelagh with Spikes.
Eagle Prince 10-28-05, 03:34 PM	Nah, the spiked chain is still better. As is a Shillelagh with Spikes. Spiked chain is overrated, and its not a bludgeoning weapon. And shillelagh/spikes has nothing to do with the weapon, plus you could cast spikes even on a greathammer once you have ironwood.